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Beebop

Stuka's Won't Attack Target

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Posted (edited)

Maybe I'm confused or forget something.  (most likely no.2)

 

I find that to keep clutter at a minimum I am making scenarios in a Test Area map (Lapino map as it loads fastest) and creating flights, convoys, trains, ships etc. and learning how to make them work.  Once working I make them into a Group and import these Groups into missions where all I usually need to do is rearrange the icons to fit mission parameters.  So far it has worked well.  I have imported ship convoys, vehicle convoys and trains and all have worked flawlessly.  And, it save creation time as all I ned to do is make minor changes to suit the situation.
Now I have run into a problem.  My Stuka group won't bomb the target when imported into a mission.

 

I'm using the Command Attack Area, altitude set same as Ju-87 (2500 meters), MCU is Object Linked to the Ju-87's and a Linked Entity object with USSR as country, (an artillery piece).  Attack radius is set to 250 meters which covers the entire artillery battery.  Priority is set to 'High'.  CAA MCU is triggered by the 2s Mission Start timer.

This setup worked in the Test Area.  As they approached the attack point they wobble their wings and roll over and dive.  After several tests to make sure it worked consistently I made it into a Group.  I then used that Group in a mission I am working on.  I rearranged the Objects/MCU's to fit mission situation and made no other changes but the Stuka's no longer attack.  They don't wobble at attack area, they just turn and head for RTB Waypoint.

 

I have Ju-52 paras dropping over same target area (thanks to JimTM and Prangster)  with their own Command Attack Area properly set up with the MCU only Object linked to the Ju-52's and they drop troops OK.  Target radius is the whole town area.  They too were created and checked for reliability on the Test Area map and made into a Group which I imported into this mission.

After looking through this thread as it also addressed dive bombing issues;

 

 

and several others (and re-reading the manual several times on all objects/MCU's used) I cannot figure out what happened.  
jollyjack said in the above referenced thread  "...best way is use Command Attack Area, and target link the (ground) objects from it...." but I cannot Target Link either the MCU nor the Object to each other only Object link, which makes sense.

 

Could it be that I have two Command Attack Area MCU's that overlap?  If so is there a way around it?  The idea is the Stuka's attack defenses ahead of the para's and soften the target so they have less resistance to deal with.

 

What am I doing wrong or forgetting to do?

 

Thanks in advance.

Edited by Beebop

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Posted (edited)

Well, i am still messing with it, now with Halberstadts bombing Arras .... everybody seems to be using different setups.

Found and interesting working setup in Motherbrains FC1 v 1.6 SP missions, 'Halberstadt CL.II 200hp - Factory Attack'.

 

Maybe it could be useful to collect a few working Ai bomb job groups with all the aftermath like damage, fires etc that prove to be successful.

With a brief description what each MCU is proposed to do; I still wonder how to use de- and activate triggers, and counters properly f.i.

 

Edited by jollyjack

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Here's what's been working for me (basically what you've done but with addition of a Force Complete - Low command MCU)

 

So I have my Stukas (and HS129's in the same formation flight so they work together) following waypoints toward the target area - altitude about 1800m or so.   The last waypoint in the chain is about 3km from the MCU Attack Area (also works with MCU Attack command).  This last waypoint is key to triggering all the action.  It in turn activate two things: The MCU Attack Area command (which can be set to medium or high priority, attacking ground targets) as well as a 2-second time that then triggers an MCU Force Complete command set to Low.  

 

The name of the command and the setting seems counter-intuitive, but from what I've gathered, the Force Complete - Low command is how you tell everyone that they are "weapons free" and should start going to town on the targets. 

 

These MCU's should have Object links going back to the attacking planes (Stukas).  If you have spawned them, they each need to be individually object linked.   If you brought them into the world by Activating them (which unlike Spawn must be done with them in a non-Enabled state) you can target link the other Stukas to th formation leader and you only have to object link from all these other MCU's to the flight leader himself.  If he gets killed, the next plane in formation assumes the lead and receives/gives orders to the flight. 

 

The MCU Attack command goes a step further and allows you to make Target Links form the MCU Attack command to specific targets you want the Stukas to go after - like focus on tanks in a mixed environment, etc.   ALL of these MCU's have to be triggered to make the magic happen - in the case of the Force Complete command, I trigger it a couple seconds after triggering the attack commands.

 

Note that the last waypoint only activated this attacking stuff and offers no way out of the area after that.   I set up a second string of waypoints to egress the target area, and then I trigger it with an Event link from the planes that uses OnBingoBombs or other similar appropriate event (OnBingoMainMG works too).  So this way, once the attack planes have dropped their bombs, they set a course for home. 

 

 

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Well @Beebop and @jollyjack, I don't know if you are still messing with this but you can forget some of what I said above, i.e., use of the Force Complete command.  Turns out it's not applicable here from what I can see.   That's what happens when the n00b tries to answer a question meant for the experts. ;)

 

Anyway if it helps, here is a very brief example mission that has two flights of Stukas attacking some generic airfield targets.  One flight is set to task with the MCU Attack command, and the other uses the MCU Attack Area command.   As you'll see if you run it, while both flights initiate an attack, the results are very different and Attack Area certainly seems the way to go. 

 

After an air start all you have to do is tag along behind them in your Stuka, or put it on Autopilot and it will orbit a point south of the airfield from where you can watch the action. 

 

 

 

 

Stuka_Attack.zip

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Thanks Stoopy.  I'll look it over.  I appreciate the help.

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OK, I got the Stuka's to dive bomb.  WOO-HOO!

Then I added the Ju-52 para drop.....................................................................GAHHHH!  The e Stuka's get to the Attack Area and go to their RTB waypoint without dropping their bombs! and head for home.

Upon further testing the para's don't drop either! :dash:

 

All I want is to have some Stuka's dive bomb town defenses then have a para drop followup.

Am I asking too much?  Or am I just an idiot?  :unsure:

 

I'd put up the .Mission file but it's .26 Mb too big and although I have 7zip it compresses the file into a "7z" extension that apparently is not acceptable.

So here's a Mediafire link: https://www.mediafire.com/file/zihefru22kqyg4n/The_Breach.Mission/file

 

I'll understand if there is no response.

Edited by Beebop

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What is a RTB waypoint?

 

" ...without dropping .." :   I had this with another not yet finished mission, and attack area properly working certainly has to do with last waypoint distance and heights & speed set right. Alas there's no set of rules it seems, as sometimes a closer range between the attack area and waypoint works, and sometimes with the attack area at a lower height does. Also it's not clear when to Object link individual targets within the attack area range to this command command makes it work better.

 

Stoopy's experiment is very interesting, f.i. he set his CMD attack area (flight 2)  to ground targets, not ground. Maybe that's a clue?

A surprise is to see that only a few targets are hit. I made some changes like an added Camera Observer and observation plane, but want to experiment with other bombers etc. If i find something interesting i'll re-post this later this week. So far it seems to be a wild west in regards of behavior; a new game start gives different Ai behavior, not very consequent it seems. Drives me nuts. But at least bombs are dropped on target.

 

Edited by jollyjack

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RTB = Return To Base, just my jargon for the waypoint after the attack that heads the flight back to it's landing area.

I have five trucks (static/linked entity's) Object linked to my Command Area MCU (along with the Leader of the Stuka flight) and in Advanced Properties I have ticked the 'Attack Ground Targets' box.  Priority set to 'High'.  Attack Radius is set to 250 meters which includes all objects in the emplacement.  Waypoint prior to the CMD Atack Area icon is 1000 meters away.  (a suggestion from another post on dive bombing and closer doesn't seem to help).   CMD Attack Area MCU is enabled by a Mission Begin MCU Target Linked to a 2second START Timer which is Target Linked to the CMD Attack Area MCU.

 

All this worked before I added the Ju-52 paratrooper planes and set up a drop for them.

Edited by Beebop

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4 hours ago, jollyjack said:

Stoopy's experiment is very interesting, f.i. he set his CMD attack area (flight 2)  to ground targets, not ground. Maybe that's a clue?

A surprise is to see that only a few targets are hit. 

 

Yep it's pretty important.  If you change the Attack Area for the Stukas to "Attack Ground", they will level-bomb and drop all their eggs in one pass, right at the center of the attack area (kinda what you want the Ju-52's to do, right?). If you leave it set to "Attack Ground Targets" they should drop only one bomb per pass on different targets until they have made 3 passes (since they carry 3 x 250kg bombs) each.  6 targets should be taken out, after which they will start strafing after a pass or two. At least that's the results I get here.

 

 

Edited by =[TIA]=Stoopy
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Aha, that's what's happening, stukas that is, thanks for the explanation. Now for these para's, J52, one must set a 'neutral' target then to aim for?

Edited by jollyjack

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The Stuka flight and the Ju-52 flight are set up almost identically using the same MCU's and links.  The difference is the Stukas CMD Attack Area has 'Attack Ground Targets' ticked and has ground objects linked.  The Ju-52 Attack Area has 'Attack Ground' ticked with no links.

Here's the odd part.  I can have just the Ju-52's in the mission and they drop paras perfectly. 

 

1768813353_ParaDrop.thumb.jpg.050a5e7ddd529b30eaa5b7e3728f6ca0.jpg

 

I can have just the Stuka's and they attack perfectly.  But when both are in neither attacks.  I have been careful not to have the two Attack Area MCU radius's overlap in case that might confuse the AI pilots.

Meanwhile I have a third flight of Ju-52's taking off from an airfield and landing at a forward field.  That flight has never been affected by the addition of one or more of these elements.

Is it not possible to have this many events happening in the same mission?  I want to create a mission that has the feel of German Blitzkrieg during the opening phases of Operation Barbarossa where the Russians are overwhelmed by attacking forces. 

 

Must I limit it to just one thing at a time?  Not very immersive or realistic to my way of thinking.

 

 

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Take a look at the attached, it builds off of the first example.  First look at the "Stukas with Ju52s" mission.   The flight of Stukas using the Attack Area (as opposed to Attack) MCU is retained form the first mission, since it's the best option for this scenario.  Then there's a flight of Ju52's that has their own Attack Area MCU set to Attack Ground and both actions occur at the same time, more or less.  Both Attack Area MCU's overlap, I don't think that;'s a concern (I have missions with many such overlaps). 

 

Getting Ju52's to paradrop was tricky, but I like to do it from a lower altltude than what's in your screenshot (I want my troops on the ground and out of AA fire ASAP).  The handoff from the last waypoint trigger to the Attack Area MCU had to occur just far enough in advance of approaching the target, or the Ju52's would just orbit the last waypoint.  Also, the speed and altitude of the last waypoint had to be just so - a speed of 300kph and an altitude of 500m was necessary, or the lead Ju52 would dive down too low during the attack and would not release paratroopers.  Then they hang around the area, which as you can see gets a little crowded what with the Stuka's still trying to take out targets.

 

So the third mission, "Stuka Attack with Ju52s and Egress",  deals with getting the Ju52's to RTB after they do their paradrop thing, using an Event trigger to set off a string of waypoints back to their base, where they get an MCU Land command.   It's basic but gives an idea.  Same applies to the Stukas, which RTB after going bingo bombs. The next step would be how to handle the chaos that occurs when both flights try to land at the same time. :)

 

 

 

Stuka_Attack with Ju52s and Egress.zip

Edited by =[TIA]=Stoopy
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Thanks Stoopy.  I will look this over.

I appreciate all your help.

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NP, I'm stumbling my way thru this as well. Once you think you know it, you get tripped up by little details.  For instance, activating the Attack Area MCU's from a waypoint MCU didn't work for me. 

 

Waypoint MCU (target link)--> Attack Area MCU

...seems like it should work, but didn't. 

 

Instead, I had to go through a timer MCU, set to minimal if any delay:

 

Waypoint MCU (target link)--> Timer MCU 500 msec  (target link)-->Attack Area MCU

...fixed it, as per the example. No idea why.  Maybe not all target links are created equal. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by =[TIA]=Stoopy
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2 hours ago, Beebop said:

The Stuka flight and the Ju-52 flight are set up almost identically using the same MCU's and links.  The difference is the Stukas CMD Attack Area has 'Attack Ground Targets' ticked and has ground objects linked.  The Ju-52 Attack Area has 'Attack Ground' ticked with no links.

 

For both of those Attack Area MCU's, they should only have Object links (green) going back to the attacking plane(s), not to any ground objects.  You don't need to create any links to stuff you want attacked, since you're already doing that by drawing a big circle around it (the Area), and saying "attack ground", "attack ground targets" and/or "attack air targets" for anything within that area.

 

The Attack MCU is a little different in that you draw Target links from it to specific things you want to target (this takes the place of the circular "inclusion area" of the Attack Area MCU).  But then you'd still need green Object Links to go to the planes (objects) that you want to perform the attacking.

 

So in your Blitzkrieg example, both flights would use their own Attack Area MCU's set up the same way and even overlapping, just with unique Object links going back to the respective attacking force.   Ideally the Stuka's  Attack Area will be set to "ground targets" and the Ju52's set to just "ground".

 

Then for a true Blitzkrieg you need artillery shelling the area as well at least until the paratroopers land.  That could use its own Attack Area MCU set to just "ground" and active only for as many minutes as needed.  Getting artillery to open fire is another trick and where I found the Force Complete - Low command useful.

 

But one thing at a time.... and no you're not an idiot, this is just very exacting stuff. 

 

Edited by =[TIA]=Stoopy
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Thanks Stoopy.  That's pretty much the way I'm setup except I enable the CMD Attack Area with the 2s START time that is linked to the first waypoint and the CMD Formation MCU.

I just saw this so I'm going to see if I can show you how I do it.  Screenshot to follow soon.

 

OK, Here's how I start them out;

40011823_1-FlightStart.thumb.jpg.128f65d1be3241807dc3806815dbca66.jpg

 

And here is the Attack area, CMD Attack Area has "Attack Ground" ticked;

1830994098_2-FlightAttack.thumb.jpg.08efe4c5e108741fd39d9379a65ce6c8.jpg

 

Mind you this worked fine until I added the Stuka's.

Stuka's are set up similar with the exception of "Attack Ground Targets" is ticked.

It also works until the Para Drop is added.

 

Any tips/suggestions more than welcome.

Edited by Beebop

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10 hours ago, =[TIA]=Stoopy said:

NP, I'm stumbling my way thru this as well. Once you think you know it, you get tripped up by little details.  For instance, activating the Attack Area MCU's from a waypoint MCU didn't work for me. 

 

Waypoint MCU (target link)--> Attack Area MCU ... seems like it should work, but didn't. 

 

Instead, I had to go through a timer MCU, set to minimal if any delay:

 

Waypoint MCU (target link)--> Timer MCU 500 msec  (target link)-->Attack Area MCU ... fixed it, as per the example. No idea why.  Maybe not all target links are created equal. 

 

 

That minimal (2s too much?) Trigger Timer seems to be almost always necessary, i think i saw or read about that elsewhere, maybe in JimTM's manual or some user groups posted. To do with calculating the processes needed? 

Quite often you'll see Activate - and Counter-MCUs involved too. Also see Jim' s bombing a factory example  here below.

 

Note, there's no target link between the 2- Attack Command and the 3-Waypoint after the attack CMD, as in Beebop's second pictutre above. Only a Counter object linked from the plane via a 2s timer to the 3-Waypoint after the attack.(with a stop CMD target linked back to the bomber plane).

 

I think a setup like this works better, compared to the experimental setups from Stoopy above, as both the 2 J87 sets Flight1 and Flight 2 the planes waver around quite a bit before hitting something. In Jim's setup below the J52, Auto-piloted, does the job instantly with less fly-a-round-the chicken-pen business:

 

Attach Factory JimTM group 02.jpg

 

BTW It's quite interesting to analyze Syn Vander's Easy Mission Generator's output: Often quite complicated, and i guess he uses a lot of fail-safe working groups active in his program to make missions work properly. The produced mission output is rather complex compared to my simple mission making attempts.

 

Vander certainly deserves more coffee IMO. 

 

 

Edited by jollyjack
added

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5 hours ago, =[TIA]=Stoopy said:

This may help.  

 

 

 

 

Ju52 MCU Attack.png

There is no need to have a timer between the last waypoint and the Attack area. You can link the last waypoint to the attack area and it will work. Your point 4 is wrong.

 

For dropping paratrooper, you have to set your attack area with :

- Priority : High (other can work)

- Attack ground

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I'm really appreciative of everyone's help.

 

I thought somewhere I read that you enable the CMD Attack Area MCU with the 2s START timer that is Target Linked from the Mission Begin MCU directly.

(Mission Begin >TL> 2s START Timer >TL> First Waypoint/Formation Command Timer/CMD Attack Area)

So it can be enabled with a Target Link from the Waypoint just prior to the attack area?   Is this recommended or how it was designed to work?  Can I also set a Target Link to the next Waypoint at the same time?

I guess for me part of the confusion is it seems that there are several ways to make things happen.  I want to use the most efficient and effective method. 

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I think so, but i am still experimenting with Stoopy's mission, adding f.i a Ju52 flight after the bombing.

 

I have a bug placing spice on airfields; caponiers can't be edited and positioned after placing them. You cannot select them with the mouse. Is this a known new bug in 4.003b ?

 

caponiers bug.jpg

Edited by jollyjack
picture added

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8 hours ago, Beebop said:

So it can be enabled with a Target Link from the Waypoint just prior to the attack area?   Is this recommended or how it was designed to work?  Can I also set a Target Link to the next Waypoint at the same time?

I guess for me part of the confusion is it seems that there are several ways to make things happen.  I want to use the most efficient and effective method. 

Yes the Attack area can be enable by the last waypoint. It's the normal way, but you can also use the timer.

 

After the attack area, you can't link the attack area to a waypoint. But you have to enable the next waypoint. There is 2 ways for that :

1- Add an event in the plane properties of the flight leader with : On bingobombs which is link to the next waypoint.

or

2- Use a timer which will enable the next waypoint. In that case, you have to set the right time. Too short, and the bomber will not drop, too long, they will stay in the area too long.

 

For bomber wich drop their bombs in altitude, use the first case. For fighter bomber which perform a ground attack at low altitude, use the second one. Using the second one can give you the possibility to set the playtime on the area. So, after using their bombs, they will use their canon to attack the remaining target during the time you set. Then, when the timer is over, planes will go to the next waypoint.

 

You can also use the time setting in the command attack area, but i don't use it.

 

 

Edited by Habu
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8 hours ago, Habu said:

There is no need to have a timer between the last waypoint and the Attack area. You can link the last waypoint to the attack area and it will work. Your point 4 is wrong.

 

 

 

Thank you Habu.  I stand corrected, just retried it both ways and no need for the timer.  Not sure why it seemed to make a difference before, probably a case of changing more than one thing at a time on my side. 

 

 

13 hours ago, Beebop said:

... And here is the Attack area, CMD Attack Area has "Attack Ground" ticked;

 

1830994098_2-FlightAttack.thumb.jpg.08efe4c5e108741fd39d9379a65ce6c8.jpg

 

Mind you this worked fine until I added the Stuka's.

Stuka's are set up similar with the exception of "Attack Ground Targets" is ticked.

It also works until the Para Drop is added.

 

Any tips/suggestions more than welcome.

 

Beebop, I think you may be missing an Object link from the Attack Area MCU back to the objects that you want to perform the attack (in this case your "Ju87 Para (en: 1115)" object).  You may have lost the original link when you copied or shifted the group around.  That's what stands out to me, at least.  And to Habu's point, I would not have that last waypoint (para WP4) triggered from the MCU Attack Area.  That may cause your Ju52's to fly right through the attack area without doing anything.

 

Beebop StukaProb.gif

Edited by =[TIA]=Stoopy

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On 1/11/2020 at 5:20 PM, Beebop said:

The Stuka flight and the Ju-52 flight are set up almost identically using the same MCU's and links.  The difference is the Stukas CMD Attack Area has 'Attack Ground Targets' ticked and has ground objects linked.  The Ju-52 Attack Area has 'Attack Ground' ticked with no links.

Here's the odd part.  I can have just the Ju-52's in the mission and they drop paras perfectly. 

 

1768813353_ParaDrop.thumb.jpg.050a5e7ddd529b30eaa5b7e3728f6ca0.jpg

 

I can have just the Stuka's and they attack perfectly.  But when both are in neither attacks.  I have been careful not to have the two Attack Area MCU radius's overlap in case that might confuse the AI pilots.

Meanwhile I have a third flight of Ju-52's taking off from an airfield and landing at a forward field.  That flight has never been affected by the addition of one or more of these elements.

Is it not possible to have this many events happening in the same mission?  I want to create a mission that has the feel of German Blitzkrieg during the opening phases of Operation Barbarossa where the Russians are overwhelmed by attacking forces. 

 

Must I limit it to just one thing at a time?  Not very immersive or realistic to my way of thinking.

 

 

 

I was thinking this afternoon: Can it be that you must group both flight separately to make all those MCUs work independently from one another?

 

4 hours ago, Habu said:

Yes the Attack area can be enable by the last waypoint. It's the normal way, but you can also use the timer.

 

After the attack area, you can't link the attack area to a waypoint. But you have to enable the next waypoint. There is 2 ways for that :

1- Add an event in the plane properties of teh flight leader with : On bingobombs which is link to the next waypoint.

or

2- Use a timer which will enable the next waypoint. In that case, you have to set the right time. Too short, and the bomber will not drop, too long, they will stay in the area too long.

 

For bomber wich drop their bomb in altitude, use the first case. For fighter bomber which perform a ground attcak at low altitude, use the second one. Using the second one can give you teh possibility to set the playtime on the area. So, fter using their bombs, they will use their canon to attack the remaining target during the time you set. Then, when the timer is over, planes will go to the next waypoint.

 

You can also use the time setting in the command attack area, but i don't use it.

 

 

 

I think this is my problem too with another mission i couldn't get right ... thanks Habu

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3 hours ago, =[TIA]=Stoopy said:

Thank you Habu.  I stand corrected, just retried it both ways and no need for the timer.  Not sure why it seemed to make a difference before, probably a case of changing more than one thing at a time on my side. 

After one patch, i don't remember which one, bomber failed to drop their bombs. The problem has been fixed. So maybe, your try was when it was bugged.

 

1 hour ago, jollyjack said:

I was thinking this afternoon: Can it be that you must group both flight separately to make all those MCUs work independently from one another?

Hard to say without the group. When i have several bombers groups, i always use one Attack area by group.

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@ Habu - After the attack area, you can't link the attack area to a waypoint.
I'm sorry I wasn't clear.  What I meant was can I Target Link the Waypoint before the Attack Area to not only the Attack Area MCU but also to the Waypoint after the Attack Area.

But you have to enable the next waypoint. There is 2 ways for that :

1- Add an event in the plane properties of the flight leader with : On bingobombs which is link to the next waypoint.


@Stoopy - Beebop, I think you may be missing an Object link from the Attack Area MCU back to the objects that you want to perform the attack (in this case your "Ju87 Para (en: 1115)" object).
You're right.  Corrected.

 

@jollyjack - I was thinking this afternoon: Can it be that you must group both flight separately to make all those MCUs work independently from one another?
Again my apologies for being unclear.  Each flight has it's own set of MCU (Mission Start/Timers/Formation/Waypoints/Attack Areas etc.)  Nothing is shared.

 

So I have changed the enabling MCU for the Attack Areas from the 2s START Timer to the waypoint just before the Attack Area for each flight.

* Ju-52's still don't drop.  Attack area MCU set for 'Attack Ground' only.

* In the Stuka's Attack Area I have unlinked all the Objects but left 'Attack Ground Targets' ticked.  Now they attack but even though they are at 2500 meters they circle around then make a shallow diving attack, not the classic dive bomb attack.  I was under the understanding that I had to link at least one object inside the attack radius (plus proper height) to get dive bombing to work.

 

I need to try Habu's Onbingoboms Event message.

 

If at any time ya'all decide to pack up and leave this horrorhouse I've created, I won't blame you a bit.  Thanks so much for staying with me so far.

 

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3 hours ago, Beebop said:

So I have changed the enabling MCU for the Attack Areas from the 2s START Timer to the waypoint just before the Attack Area for each flight.

* Ju-52's still don't drop.  Attack area MCU set for 'Attack Ground' only.

* In the Stuka's Attack Area I have unlinked all the Objects but left 'Attack Ground Targets' ticked.  Now they attack but even though they are at 2500 meters they circle around then make a shallow diving attack, not the classic dive bomb attack.  I was under the understanding that I had to link at least one object inside the attack radius (plus proper height) to get dive bombing to work.

 

I need to try Habu's Onbingoboms Event message.

 

If at any time ya'all decide to pack up and leave this horrorhouse I've created, I won't blame you a bit.  Thanks so much for staying with me so far.

 

 

Re: the way Stukas attack in a shallow dive:  I may be wrong but I think this is just what we get.  I have not seen them do anything else such as wing over into the classic steep dive.  Further disappointingly, you can outfit them with the Siren and they won't use it (or at least you'll never hear it).   The Ju-88's attack at about the same angle.   If there's other info around here that describes getting them to be more "dive-bomby" that would be terrific.  Must search...

 

Re: the Ju52's not dropping, have you tested deleting that Target Link from their Attack Area MCU to the next waypoint?  I think as long as they "see" that as their next instruction, they'll go ahead and just focus on that as soon as they reach the center of the Attack Area... which is also where they start dropping their payload, so they could be conflicted, thinking "do I drop or do I go?"... and it's been my experience that given the choice, the AI has a preference for self-preservation and seemingly will do anything to stay out of a fight.   So yes, going with Habu's OnBingoBombs event message to trigger that waypoint after they've done their job is the way to go (it's also in my last example or two I think). 

 

I have no problem sticking around a horrorhouse... it's not a real party until a proper mess has been made with empty beer bottles and pizza boxes all over the place, some broken furniture,  there's a naked girl in the pool, a fight has broken out, the neighbors have called the cops at least three times because the band is too loud,  a couple of friendships have been broken and re-mended,  Mrs. Davish's priceless diamond necklace has turned up missing and someone has passed out on the front lawn and they're trying to use him as a ramp to see if One-Eyed Jack can ride his Harley through the front door...

 

So speaking of messes, see the "Stuka_Attack with JU52s and Blitzkrieg" mission in the attached ZIP file.  Put your plane on autopilot then press F12 to switch to the camera that looks over the test target airfield, wait and watch the show.    This is about the best I've been able to coordinate Stuka, Paradrops and Artillery together, and the Arty stops right as the Ju52's come in to make their pass. 

 

 

Stuka_Blitzkrieg.zip

Edited by =[TIA]=Stoopy
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"...Re: the way Stukas attack in a shallow dive:  I may be wrong but I think this is just what we get.  I have not seen them do anything else such as wing over into the classic steep dive.  Further disappointingly, you can outfit them with the Siren and they won't use it (or at least you'll never hear it).   The Ju-88's attack at about the same angle.   If there's other info around here that describes getting them to be more "dive-bomby" that would be terrific."

They do.  I have seen it many times during my testing.

1778503546_DiveBombing.thumb.jpg.c0ee5d331e8b1f44b228d7ee058d347a.jpg

 

"Re: the Ju52's not dropping, have you tested deleting that Target Link from their Attack Area MCU to the next waypoint?"

I'm sorry I'm still being unclear.  I have never set a Target Link from an Attack Area MCU to a waypoint.  I did try setting a target Link from the waypoint prior to the Attack Area MCU but it did not help.

Edited by Beebop

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Here is how I set up that screenshot;

* Mission Begin  >  2s Start Timer  >  2s Formation Timer/Stuka Flight Leader/CMD Attack Area
* 2s Formation Timer Object Linked to CMD Formation.

* CMD Formation Object Linked to Stuka Flight Leader.

* Stuka Waypoint 1 Object Linked to Stuka Flight Leader.  Target Linked to Stuka Waypoint 2

* Stuka Waypoint 2 Object Linked to Stuka Flight Leader. Target Linked to Stuka Waypoint 3. 

* CMD Attack Area Object Linked to Stuka Flight leader and 2 static Linked Entity trucks inside attack radius.

* Stuka Waypoint 3  Object Linked to Stuka Flight Leader.  Target Linked to Stuka Waypoint 4

* Stuka Waypoint 4 Target Linked CMD Land

* Stuka's set at 2500 meters.
* All Waypoints set at 2500 meters.  (Waypoint 4 just before Land is set at 1000 meters)
* Attack Area is set to 2500 meters.

Attack Area Advanced Properties;
Priority: 'High'
'Attack Ground Targets' ticked
Attack Area: 100 meters
Time : 10 minutes

 

Question-  Why do you use a "Trigger Activate" MCU enabled from your START Timer and Object Linked to your flight lead? 

I just Object Link my 2s START Timer directly to the flight lead. 

What are the benefits of your method? 

Edited by Beebop

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9 hours ago, =[TIA]=Stoopy said:

.......  I have no problem sticking around a horrorhouse... it's not a real party until a proper mess has been made with empty beer bottles and pizza boxes all over the place, some broken furniture,  there's a naked girl in the pool, a fight has broken out, the neighbors have called the cops at least three times because the band is too loud,  a couple of friendships have been broken and re-mended,  Mrs. Davish's priceless diamond necklace has turned up missing and someone has passed out on the front lawn and they're trying to use him as a ramp to see if One-Eyed Jack can ride his Harley through the front door...

 

So speaking of messes, see the "Stuka_Attack with JU52s and Blitzkrieg" mission in the attached ZIP file.  Put your plane on autopilot then press F12 to switch to the camera that looks over the test target airfield, wait and watch the show.    This is about the best I've been able to coordinate Stuka, Paradrops and Artillery together, and the Arty stops right as the Ju52's come in to make their pass.

Stuka_Blitzkrieg.zip 40.02 kB · 2 downloads

 

Well, that new Blitzkrieg works at least, compliments, so far i couldn't get that far. Bombs OK, but no paradroppings, just a J52 fly-by.

What i probably did wrong was the bingo set on the attack commands, have to check that ...

Pity that friggin' editor still can't be used with the game running, saves a hell of a lot of startup times and easier testing.

 

PS horror house ... you write Crime Time or CSI Miami soaps?

 

Maybe time for a IL2 Battle of the Streets; they got some nice big Nazi staff cars already to set op an Italian Mob chase across the map of Arras, with shooters and banks for targeting and Stuka sirens if they work. Convert some railway cars and Nazi vans to bullet proof Armored security, and have some Jesse James empty-ing them. We need horses, nice add-on for FC1 too. Do i hear someone say police and press helicopters BTW? Nice for camera views.

 

Edited by jollyjack

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1 hour ago, Beebop said:

* CMD Attack Area Object Linked to Stuka Flight leader and 2 static Linked Entity trucks inside attack radius.

Do not link Attack area to any targets (set ground Target in the property of the Attack area and set the time not to low ). If you want that planes attack a specific target, then use the Command Attack and not the Command Attack area.

 

 

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Habu said..." Do not link Attack area to any targets (set ground Target in the property of the Attack area and set the time not to low ). "

OK.  Well my first question is why not?  I get the desired effect, Stuka's dive bomb the target area.

So I went ahead and did as you suggested, removed the links to the trucks and here's what happened:

815286607_DiveBombing2.thumb.jpg.ececc043fa78cd970df2a1b6c4a90ec4.jpg

So OK, that worked.  I guess the links were extraneous?

 

Anyway, so I am left with the same questions.  When I copy this group of MCU's and objects and paste them into another mission. why don't the Stuka drop their bombs? 

Everything is identical, MCU's, Waypoints and Links, but when the Stuka's reach the target area they don't drop.  (I also tried making these items into a Group with the same result, no attack).

There is only one difference, the distance between the planes spawning and the target area.  The Waypoint just prior to the Attack Area is the same distance away, only the first Waypoint is set back for timing purposes.  Also the last waypoint and CMD Land is set further away.  Could moving those waypoints have any influence on the behavior of the aircraft or affect the reliability of the Attack Area MCU?

 

Finally, just for clarification, as I understand it, in the Advanced Properties of the CMD Attack Area the box marked 'Time' is how long an aircraft will hunt for targets inside the radius.  Is that correct?  It is not a timer that turns off the command if no aircraft linked to it enter before the time expires, right?

 

@jollyjack:

"PS horror house ... you write Crime Time or CSI Miami soaps?"
No but the frustrations of the ME might drive me to committing some...😠😄

 

"Pity that friggin' editor still can't be used with the game running, saves a hell of a lot of startup times and easier testing."
Agreed.  That ability to play the mission while in the Full Mission Builder in 1946 saved a lot of time and allowed for quick tweaks.  With the complexity of this ME it would be a godsend.  I(we) spend almost as much time opening and closing the game and editor as we do building and testing. 

I assume this has been requested of the Developers or did I miss an explanation as to why they can't do that?

 

Thanks again Habu for taking the time to help me understand and use the ME.

 

EDIT:

When I took that screenshot I forgot to, in the CMD Attack Area's Advanced Properties, change the 'Attack Ground Targets' to 'Attack Ground'.  I went back in and did that.  The result was a precision level bomb run.  So it appears that to have Stuka's dive bomb you need to tick 'Attack Ground Targets'.

 

Edited by Beebop

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Well guys, it seems that all dropping issues are solved then ... thanks for the tips and advising. I'll try to compile the findings in me ole brain.

Or better, create a PDF of the successful group setups. The mession i gave up on some months ago might turn out in a working mission after all.

 

And for the FMB/Game situation; i read somewhere a suggestion to run the FMB in a virtual machine on the same PC, so it must be possible if it uses the same resources the game needs, there might be a way for some nerd (alas i am not) to write a shell so that the FMB is installed separately from the game and runs from within that. Wishful thinking?

 

There must be some simpler way than VM-ing and having 2 window OS-es running at the same time with the switching involved ....

Maybe Syn Vander or Pat Wilson can shine a light on this and give some advice?

Lets start a new posting thread about it ....  Shake up the pillows, feathers flying.

 

I started with RoF recently thanks to the nice sale going on a week or so ago. Basically that has the same situation. A lot of modders have set their teeth in to that one with amazing results, and i like RoF and it's variety of planes. They are old, nice and slow, like me, only most can use some turbo added for more engine power. It takes too much time to reach Balloon levels with only a 100-150hp engine.

 

PS this might be important too, as Habu mentioned in another unnecessary cycling post:

Quote

... If a waypoint is too close a group of planes has problems finding the waypoint. When a waypoint is activated, your plane is already after your waypoint, so they have to go back, and the leader have to fly in the area of the waypoint to activate the next one, which is the command attack area. And as you have many planes, it's difficult to him to reach the area of the waypoint.

 

Edited by jollyjack

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9 hours ago, Beebop said:

"...Re: the way Stukas attack in a shallow dive:  I may be wrong but I think this is just what we get.  I have not seen them do anything else such as wing over into the classic steep dive.  Further disappointingly, you can outfit them with the Siren and they won't use it (or at least you'll never hear it).   The Ju-88's attack at about the same angle.   If there's other info around here that describes getting them to be more "dive-bomby" that would be terrific."

They do.  I have seen it many times during my testing.

1778503546_DiveBombing.thumb.jpg.c0ee5d331e8b1f44b228d7ee058d347a.jpg

 

"Re: the Ju52's not dropping, have you tested deleting that Target Link from their Attack Area MCU to the next waypoint?"

I'm sorry I'm still being unclear.  I have never set a Target Link from an Attack Area MCU to a waypoint.  I did try setting a target Link from the waypoint prior to the Attack Area MCU but it did not help.

 

Hmmmm.  I'm going to try my best to see if I can get them to do that as well.  I just assumed the AI behavior didn't go that far.

 

I took another look at your ME screenshot and I made a mistake - there's a Target Link going directly from Para WP3 to Para WP4...   It passes directly through the Attack Area MCU which threw me off and I thought it was from the Attack Area MCU.  But still, with that Target Link in place like that, you're telling the Ju52's to go directly to WP4 after WP3.  That would be why they're not dropping.  Have you tried deleting that Target link, and connecting a new TL from WP3 to your Attack Area MCU?  

 

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9 hours ago, Beebop said:

Habu said..." Do not link Attack area to any targets (set ground Target in the property of the Attack area and set the time not to low ). "

OK.  Well my first question is why not?  I get the desired effect, Stuka's dive bomb the target area.

So I went ahead and did as you suggested, removed the links to the trucks and here's what happened:

815286607_DiveBombing2.thumb.jpg.ececc043fa78cd970df2a1b6c4a90ec4.jpg

So OK, that worked.  I guess the links were extraneous?

 

Anyway, so I am left with the same questions.  When I copy this group of MCU's and objects and paste them into another mission. why don't the Stuka drop their bombs? 

Everything is identical, MCU's, Waypoints and Links, but when the Stuka's reach the target area they don't drop.  (I also tried making these items into a Group with the same result, no attack).

There is only one difference, the distance between the planes spawning and the target area.  The Waypoint just prior to the Attack Area is the same distance away, only the first Waypoint is set back for timing purposes.  Also the last waypoint and CMD Land is set further away.  Could moving those waypoints have any influence on the behavior of the aircraft or affect the reliability of the Attack Area MCU?

 

Finally, just for clarification, as I understand it, in the Advanced Properties of the CMD Attack Area the box marked 'Time' is how long an aircraft will hunt for targets inside the radius.  Is that correct?  It is not a timer that turns off the command if no aircraft linked to it enter before the time expires, right?

 

@jollyjack:

"PS horror house ... you write Crime Time or CSI Miami soaps?"
No but the frustrations of the ME might drive me to committing some...😠😄

 

"Pity that friggin' editor still can't be used with the game running, saves a hell of a lot of startup times and easier testing."
Agreed.  That ability to play the mission while in the Full Mission Builder in 1946 saved a lot of time and allowed for quick tweaks.  With the complexity of this ME it would be a godsend.  I(we) spend almost as much time opening and closing the game and editor as we do building and testing. 

I assume this has been requested of the Developers or did I miss an explanation as to why they can't do that?

 

Thanks again Habu for taking the time to help me understand and use the ME.

 

EDIT:

When I took that screenshot I forgot to, in the CMD Attack Area's Advanced Properties, change the 'Attack Ground Targets' to 'Attack Ground'.  I went back in and did that.  The result was a precision level bomb run.  So it appears that to have Stuka's dive bomb you need to tick 'Attack Ground Targets'.

 

You're welcome.

 

Some explanation about the properties of the command attack area.

- Priority : Define the priority for the plane. For a bombing, i always use High.

- Attack air target : no explanation need.

- Attack Ground : You ask a carpet bombing. There is no accuracy in the attack. Plane don't target any ground target, but will drop in the area.

- Attack ground target : Planes will search and attack any ground target in the area.

- Attack area : no explanation need.

- Time : It's the play time in the area. But the time begin as soon the plane enter in the area. So you have to set it fine to avoid that they stop the attack earlier. As it doesn't activate the next waypoint when it is over, i don't find any utility in that settings.

Most of the time, i set it to 60 minutes or more, and i use a timer or an event to activate the RTB waypoint. With a big time, i'm sure that planes will drop all their bombs and use their canon too.

 

About dive bombing using the attack area. You have to set Attack ground target in the properties, and the attack area must be at a high altitude (i never do test about that, so i can't tell you whicj altitude). If the altitude is not enough, planes will perform a ground attack without diving.

 

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11 hours ago, Beebop said:

Anyway, so I am left with the same questions.  When I copy this group of MCU's and objects and paste them into another mission. why don't the Stuka drop their bombs? 

Everything is identical, MCU's, Waypoints and Links, but when the Stuka's reach the target area they don't drop.  (I also tried making these items into a Group with the same result, no attack).

There is only one difference, the distance between the planes spawning and the target area.  The Waypoint just prior to the Attack Area is the same distance away, only the first Waypoint is set back for timing purposes.  Also the last waypoint and CMD Land is set further away.  Could moving those waypoints have any influence on the behavior of the aircraft or affect the reliability of the Attack Area MCU?

 

 

 

 

A few weeks ago I was working on a bomb group of 87's and they attacked as they should, I added two more groups (110's/Ju88's) with a random trigger. The trigger worked but then none of them dropped bombs. I exported the group, deleted it from the mission, saved the mission, re-opened the mission, added the group back-in and still no bombs dropped. Finally I deleted the group and re-built it from scratch and now it works fine. Just one of the pitfalls in working with the ME. I spent quite some time getting it to work, but could never pinpoint what caused the problem. I still think the ME can be fun, but I have a warped sense of humor!

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Hmmm.  I may end up having to do that.  Oddly when I import just the ju-87's OR just the Ju-52's, they drop as intended.  It's only when both groups are in that they both stop dropping.

Although I really like all the little things you can do to make varied and random mission events, methinks that maybe it's too much complexity.  I know the Dev's work hard on getting us new planes and maps and fixing issues but I wish that more time would be spent on streamlining the ME and providing an up to date manual.  The ones we have are certainly helpful but many things have changed since they were published.  IMO the ability to make missions is paramount to the lifeblood of a sim.  Being able to recreate various real life scenarios and, when maps and planes are few, making missions for the interim until the proper items are released.  (read Battle of France, Pacific Theatre, Spanish Civil War, etc.)

Thanks for your input Gramps and yes, you do have a warped sense of humor.😉

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2 hours ago, No_85_Gramps said:

A few weeks ago I was working on a bomb group of 87's and they attacked as they should, I added two more groups (110's/Ju88's) with a random trigger. The trigger worked but then none of them dropped bombs. I exported the group, deleted it from the mission, saved the mission, re-opened the mission, added the group back-in and still no bombs dropped. Finally I deleted the group and re-built it from scratch and now it works fine. Just one of the pitfalls in working with the ME. I spent quite some time getting it to work, but could never pinpoint what caused the problem. I still think the ME can be fun, but I have a warped sense of humor!

 

I am just experiencing the same thing with a Ju52 dropping. It worked before, but then tings got messy. Placed the leader & wings on the runway a few times, and set it to ground level. But starting the game it was below the surface. Reloading the mission editor, and it was again not set to ground level.

 

I think the editor since 4.003b sucks ? I also placed a barack block, and AGAIN it would not let it be selected in the view page.

In the mission tree i could name it, set it to linked entry, and sill it would not let itself be selected, beats me. Maybe a reinstall?

 

Integrity database check says failed, but i was told before once not to take it seriously ... i am warped too and again give up. Pity though.

 

Edited by jollyjack

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I followed Habu's suggestion of sending an Event message to waypoint 3 but to no avail.  So I did some further testing....

 

Definition of Terms I use:
Stuka Waypoint 2: Stuka Waypoint just before and Target Linked to CMD Attack Area
Stuka Waypoint 3: Stuka Waypoint just after CMD Attack Area and having planes return to base.

 

CMD Attack Area Properties:
Altitude same as Stuka waypoints, 2200 meters
Priority 'High'
'Attack Ground Targets' ticked
Timer set for 10 minutes.

 

First I moved Stuka Waypoint 2 back from the Attack Area based on a suggestion that if the waypoint was too close to the Attack Area the AI may concentrate on going to Waypoint 3 and overlook the Attack Area instruction.
RESULT:
Planes passed Attack Area, but then turned back and did a shallow dive bombing targets followed by repeated gun attacks.

Next, without changing anything, I added an Object Link to a truck inside the area radius.
RESULT:
Same as above.

Next I changed the altitude of the Stuka's and Attack Area to 2500 meters, the height from which they have made dive bombing attacks during testing and deleted Object Link to truck.  I reduced the Timer from 10 minutes to 1 minute.  (Stuka's only have 1 500Kg bomb so strafing is unneeded for this mission.  Besides I have paras coming in and don't want them smashing into helpless paratroopers.  I'm not a thoughtless God).
RESULT:
Same, no dive bombing.  :(

Also, I set Waypoint 2 for the Paras back from their CMD Attack Area ('Attack Ground' ticked) and now they all drop.  (mental applause)

 

I am now going to do more testing setting Stuka Waypoint 2 a little closer and see if that will instigate dive bombing.  I will report back the results.  I need a break now and eat lunch.  this Mission Building stimulates the appetite.

 

@jollyjack, if your Ju-52's are below ground, in the ME select the plane icon and then click on the Green down arrow in the toolbar.  It's under the words "Draw" and "Tools" between the 'F' (Focus on selection) and 'Zoom to cursor'.  HTH

 

Edited by Beebop

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As regards the dive bomb technique of the Stukas, it seems they do indeed wing on over into the classic steep vertical dive if they are set to 2800-3200m altitude (actual range may be outside those numbers, this is just what I've observed).

 

The new ZIP file includes a mission called "Stuka_Dive_Bomb_Comparo" and has 6 flights of Stukas that approach and attack from these altitudes:

Flight 1: 1200m

Flight 2: 1600m

Flight 3: 2000m

Flight 4: 2400m

Flight 5: 2800m

Flight 6: 3200m

 

EDIT:  Altitudes of 2500-3400m (ASL) worked fine, and just outside of that (2400 and 3500) the Stukas refused to wing over.  Ground level was approx 150m, so altitudes between 2350m to 3250m AGL seem like the actual limits?

 

The other flights just do the boring ol' shallow dive technique, but Flights 5 and 6 just flat get jiggy with it, winging over only when they are directly above the center of the target area!  And what's even better, they activate their sirens (when so equipped) in the dive...Woohoooo! (pumps fist).

 

Payload doesn't effect their technique except that if they are carrying multiple bombs, they only release the main bomb in the dive, then they will "fly around the chicken pen" and revert to doing the shallow divebomb technique for the other bombs...better to go with a bigger single bomb for a good show, I'd say. 

 

 

Stuka_Attack with Divebomb Comparo.zip

Edited by =[TIA]=Stoopy

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