WOW on Physiology

[Panzerlang]

If it's off a bit (relative to what we assume would be the tolerances of real WW2 pilots) just pretend you're not quite as fit a WW pilot as you should be. ?

[SCG_motoadve]

We are fortunate to have a sim evolving to be more realistic, its an option, its  affecting some flying styles which used to take advantage when this was not modeled,  , now they are blacking out often , kills dont come as easy anymore ,so some people  want it modified , so you can pull higher Gs.

Which means again super human pilots, UFO maneuvers etc, immersion killer and unrealistic.

 

Its the same physics for everyone, level game, just more realistic flying, less gamey.

Instead of asking for modifications,  why not adapt your flying styles to a more realistic flying, if turning it OFF is not an option, learn to take advantage of it, its very rewarding , more tactical and fun.

 

[KG200_Achilleus]

I think that we louse the point of this,again.

And certainly the point isn't if the ufo maneuvers will continue or not, or less kills comes now and etc, as many fellows here rewrite again and again..

We, just try to figure out if this “G” change, is working as it should be, or it needs just a little tuning.

For me as for most people in here,this is a no way going back to previous g-limit.

But, if this needs some kind of retuning for it to be perfect, then i will say yes(for me needed maybe 20-30% G limit reduce).

Many of us have seen a non excusable blackout at 5.5 - 6 Gs in just 2-3 sec or so.

It is vey difficult to have some real life numbers especially with those planes,so most people making just guesses, thats all.

Edited October 14, 2019 by KG200_Achilleus

[Krisu]

Has anyone ever read Pierre Clostermann's Big Show? There's some parts where he talks about controlling your fear and not panicking which in real life is something you'd definitely expect strapped onto these [Edited] things. In any case, with the implementation of this new physiology system, when you have somebody on your six your immediate reaction is to burn hard, that's fear. BOOM IT JUST GOT REAL you have to control your fear and do a measured thoughtful turn or else you black out. Neat way to think about it bringing some more depth to the sim xD 

Edited October 15, 2019 by SYN_Haashashin
Language

[SCG_motoadve]

Just now, KG200_Achilleus said:

I think that we louse the point of this,again.

And certainly the point isn't if the ufo maneuvers will continue or not as many fellows here rewrite again and again..

We, just try to figure out if this “G” change, is working as it should be, or it needs just a little tuning.

For me as for most people in here,this is a no way going back to previous g-limit.

But, if this needs some kind of retuning for it to be perfect, then i will say yes(for me needed maybe 20-30% G limit reduce).

Many of us have seen a non excusable blackout at 5.5 - 6 Gs in just 2-3 sec or so.

It is vey difficult to have some real life numbers especially with those planes,so most people making just guesses, thats all.

So why not leave it to the developers and trust their job.

[KG200_Achilleus]

2 minutes ago, II./JG77_motoadve said:

So why not leave it to the developers and trust their job.

Trying to give some ideas,not really that they are correct,neither that they are wrong.

The same did happen with the new 109’s engine sound.

many people marked that it has some issues in the high rpm and pitch range,and this is right so it will be fixed.

[RavN_Sone]

31 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

I can respond how I like, just like you can. I really don't see why you had to drag my comment out of a locked thread to be honest, as I'm not "spoiling the party"

Of course, I only said "please"

I wanted to respond somehow and the thread got locked. A lot of people voice their opinions and then a fair amount of others tells them to just disable the feature (which is not a good way of addressing their posts). Nothing personal Custard ✋

[Darkmouse]

Yep, I don't think I've seen a single person on this thread say anything other than that they are very pleased with the new effects. 

 

I don't play online and have idea what all the ufo complaining business is about. 

[357th_Dog]

47 minutes ago, Darkmouse said:

Yep, I don't think I've seen a single person on this thread say anything other than that they are very pleased with the new effects. 

 

I don't play online and have idea what all the ufo complaining business is about. 

You had people exploit the relative lack of G symptoms by doing snap movements that would likely severely injure a pilot IRL to avoid fire or get the nose on an opponent. Like practically cartwheeling, dumping the nose nearly vertical, etc. 

[Floppy_Sock]

@357th_Dog

 

See I think we all hoped that the new g-model would stop this behavior. Rapid oscillation between +Gz and -Gz are extremely taxing and lower your g-tolerance significantly. Most extremely when switching from a bunt to a pull. This stat is from memory but if I remember correctly gloc can occur as quickly as 4+Gz after a bunt. This effect is currently not included in the physio model. As such, the current system encourages pushing the nose even more because the only way to currently competitively pull hard when going guns d is to intermittently bunt to clear your vision.  It looks something like roll out of plane- pull to blackout but not gloc - roll out of plane - bunt - evaluate position - roll - pull - roll - bunt  - etc. 

 

That is not realistic. However with the current gloc tolerance so low, it's nearly impossible to evade a bandit with a proper break turn since you're almost guaranteed to gloc. So instead, we see - (even more of what I had hoped the model would prevent) throttle cut, flaps to dump as much speed as possible, followed by jinking while slowing down to hopefully force an overshoot. 

 

I don't like this style of play at all - and if this is what you mean by "UFO" then I certainly think I dislike it as much as you do.  However, I find there really is no other option at the moment when going guns d - so it's more prevalent now than ever. 

[SCG_motoadve]

48 minutes ago, Floppy_Sock said:

@357th_Dog

 

See I think we all hoped that the new g-model would stop this behavior. Rapid oscillation between +Gz and -Gz are extremely taxing and lower your g-tolerance significantly. Most extremely when switching from a bunt to a pull. This stat is from memory but if I remember correctly gloc can occur as quickly as 4+Gz after a bunt. This effect is currently not included in the physio model. As such, the current system encourages pushing the nose even more because the only way to currently competitively pull hard when going guns d is to intermittently bunt to clear your vision.  It looks something like roll out of plane- pull to blackout but not gloc - roll out of plane - bunt - evaluate position - roll - pull - roll - bunt  - etc. 

 

That is not realistic. However with the current gloc tolerance so low, it's nearly impossible to evade a bandit with a proper break turn since you're almost guaranteed to gloc. So instead, we see - (even more of what I had hoped the model would prevent) throttle cut, flaps to dump as much speed as possible, followed by jinking while slowing down to hopefully force an overshoot. 

 

I don't like this style of play at all - and if this is what you mean by "UFO" then I certainly think I dislike it as much as you do.  However, I find there really is no other option at the moment when going guns d - so it's more prevalent now than ever. 

You cannot  be doing a 500 or 600 kmh do hard break and not get a blackout, that kind of flying worked before but was very unrealistic.

 

Defensive maneuvers do work now, you can try scissors ,rolling scissors and you can evade, have done it online against Yak 1Bs, Tempest and P51s  and it worked,  before it was useless because the other plane was glued to your tail no matter what.

 

Modify your style, and you will get rewarded, now you need to fly more like real pilots do.

[Darkmouse]

1 hour ago, 357th_Dog said:

You had people exploit the relative lack of G symptoms by doing snap movements that would likely severely injure a pilot IRL to avoid fire or get the nose on an opponent. Like practically cartwheeling, dumping the nose nearly vertical, etc. 

? - I thought as much and I can see why that is very irritating. 

[Blackhawk_FR]

On 10/13/2019 at 11:34 PM, KG200_Achilleus said:

Hmm...i thought you said it couldn't..:)

 

There is already a big difference between 4, 5 and 6G. 

Having a black out by pulling 4/5G for few seconds, with a peak up to 6, is normal. 

With one G less (pulling 3/4G for few seconds with a peak up to 5), it's less likely to have a black out. It'll be a more or less intense grey out.

 

And, I think this is exactly what we can see in the videos with an accelerometer. 

Edited October 14, 2019 by F/JG300_Faucon

[Darkmouse]

But then I disagree with the above. It is *possible*, but I personally would not expect to experience any vision loss pulling 4 or 5 g with a peak of 6 for a few seconds. Or at least I wouldn't when I was doing it on a daily basis. 

 

The two times I have come closest to full blackout were 1. Where the other guy had control and I was not expecting the rapid onset and 2. A lapse in my own judgement and an over exuberant pull when I was almost fully relaxed that almost killed me - it was a valuable lesson. 

 

The bottom line is that this discussion is very subjective, but generally the new effect is well implemented and has had a very positive impact on gameplay. 

Edited October 15, 2019 by Darkmouse
Spelling

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

With everybody focused on G-forces, it leaves me to wonder are there other physiological effects modeled as well?

 

For example, AFAiK all the fighters in the game spawn in with the pitch trim set to the optimal/max cruising speed by default.  This is usually pretty nose-heavy, so basically, the pilot is pulling excessive elevator force on the stick the whole time during climb out from the airfield.  It's like going to the gym, getting on the rowing machine, setting the resistance to ~20 - 30 pounds and holding it for 5+ minutes until you've reach the desired altitude and speed where the elevator no longer needs resistance.  I'd imagine that if you had to do that every flight + ride back on the control column to keep the nose up every time the speed got too low, you'd get pretty tired or at the very least sore before even seeing any action.  Either that or you'd have back, shoulder and bicep muscles that would make a gorilla jealous.  

[Darkmouse]

Trimming is probably going too far down a rabbit hole. Just trim for whatever you're doing and you're good to go. 

 

I can confirm that flying a fast aircraft with a stuck trim tab, especially at full deflection can take all of your strength - I'd imagine in many types I'd run out of strength very quickly, and I'm not weak. 

[SCG_motoadve]

33 minutes ago, Darkmouse said:

Trimming is probably going too far down a rabbit hole. Just trim for whatever you're doing and you're good to go. 

 

I can confirm that flying a fast aircraft with a stuck trim tab, especially at full deflection can take all of your strength - I'd imagine in many types I'd run out of strength very quickly, and I'm not weak. 

Setting trim for take off is part of checklist of the preflight routine.

I make a habit of setting trim for take off  in the sim and in real life.(In the sim I put it on neutral, have not seen a mark for take off trim)

Wrong trim can be scary in real life ,once  I got my plane worked on , and the mechanic serviced the trim.

He re assembly it  backwards, so on take off it  was nose down, I got a nasty surprise when airborne , the plane  dived down instantly  after being in ground effect and it took a quick reaction and lot of strength not to crash back into the runway.(was a close one).

[KG200_Achilleus]

7 hours ago, F/JG300_Faucon said:

 

 

And, I think this is exactly what we can see in the videos with an accelerometer. 

 

As i remember(maybe i am wrong), the first video i’ve posted with a barrel roll, was described by me as a maneuver of max 4-6 Gs, and back then you told me from your experience that this maneuver is well over 5-6Gs thats why the blackout came.

when i insisted that this is no way over 5-6Gs, and if it is possible to blackout in just 2 seconds at 6 or 7 Gs, you replied to me that it is not enough(your reply page 8). Most people including you spoke about generally speaking while evidence was needed for this,(until we have an accelerometer),and now that we have it, those 5-6Gs become the “normal” G force needed for a pilot to blackout.

Anyway, i bypass this, as this was another video and going to describe my last one,

i will give some excac times so most people understand what we are talking about..

in my last video,

first upside loop:

at video’s time 0.33 i had 4Gs,

time 0.35 - 5.5Gs,

time 0.36 - 6Gs and blacked out,speed 530klm/h.

second normal loop:

time 1.14 - 4Gs,

time 1.16 - 5.5Gs,

time 1.17 - 6Gs and blacked out,speed 430klm/h.

barrel roll:

time 2.01 - 3.5Gs,

time 2.02 - 4Gs,

time 2.03 - 5Gs,

time 2.04 - 5.5Gs,

time 2.05 - 6Gs and blacked out, speed 400klm/h.

This is clearly show that the black out comes as you reach this 5.5-6 Gs limit in just 1 second or less by the time you reach it.

i put my self out if this as i have no real experience, but..

II./JG53Lutzow also state in his post(page 7), that by his aerobatic and generally flying experience, this is not normal and almost no pilot could ever blackout at 5-6 Gs,at least for 5 seconds keeping those Gs..

Darkmouse and some others also said the same as a real life pilots them self's.

My neighbor and family friend also,(ex greek air force pilot(62yo) and instructor, saw my video and said, there is no way, and never an average fighter pilot(with no G suits) could blackout at those Gs and even more at only 3-5 sec duration..

So..who the hell should we all trust as a certain opinion?

i guess noone..:)

[SCG_motoadve]

5 hours ago, KG200_Achilleus said:

 

As i remember(maybe i am wrong), the first video i’ve posted with a barrel roll, was described by me as a maneuver of max 4-6 Gs, and back then you told me from your experience that this maneuver is well over 5-6Gs thats why the blackout came.

when i insisted that this is no way over 5-6Gs, and if it is possible to blackout in just 2 seconds at 6 or 7 Gs, you replied to me that it is not enough(your reply page 8). Most people including you spoke about generally speaking while evidence was needed for this,(until we have an accelerometer),and now that we have it, those 5-6Gs become the “normal” G force needed for a pilot to blackout.

Anyway, i bypass this, as this was another video and going to describe my last one,

i will give some excac times so most people understand what we are talking about..

in my last video,

first upside loop:

at video’s time 0.33 i had 4Gs,

time 0.35 - 5.5Gs,

time 0.36 - 6Gs and blacked out,speed 530klm/h.

second normal loop:

time 1.14 - 4Gs,

time 1.16 - 5.5Gs,

time 1.17 - 6Gs and blacked out,speed 430klm/h.

barrel roll:

time 2.01 - 3.5Gs,

time 2.02 - 4Gs,

time 2.03 - 5Gs,

time 2.04 - 5.5Gs,

time 2.05 - 6Gs and blacked out, speed 400klm/h.

This is clearly show that the black out comes as you reach this 5.5-6 Gs limit in just 1 second or less by the time you reach it.

i put my self out if this as i have no real experience, but..

II./JG53Lutzow also state in his post(page 7), that by his aerobatic and generally flying experience, this is not normal and almost no pilot could ever blackout at 5-6 Gs,at least for 5 seconds keeping those Gs..

Darkmouse and some others also said the same as a real life pilots them self's.

My neighbor and family friend also,(ex greek air force pilot(62yo) and instructor, saw my video and said, there is no way, and never an average fighter pilot(with no G suits) could blackout at those Gs and even more at only 3-5 sec duration..

So..who the hell should we all trust as a certain opinion?

i guess noone..:)

Comparing a rested , trained, with a slower and lighter plane aerobatic pilot to WWII pilots , with long missions, long days, combat stress and faster heavier airplanes is not a fair comparison.

Aerobatic pilots have a routine, the onset of the G pull is anticipated, WWII you were fighting for your life or to kill and enemy either evading or attacking, improvising maneuvers  on the go,  one after the other, not setting for up each maneuver like an aerobatic pilot do for his routine, the aerobatic is prepared before the G force pull,he can anticipate,  he trained and knows, what each maneuver will feel like one after the other.

This is a WWII  simulator.

Seat angle of the airplanes I dont know how much of a difference will make and if the developers have modeled this into pilot physiology or not, would be nice , so some planes might have a slight advantage over others like IRL.

 

Here is a study.

In itself, high speed does not produce harmful symptoms. What can be dangerous are high accelerations; expressed as multiples of gravity, or g's. In pulling out of a dive, for example, a pilot may be subjected to an acceleration as high as 9 g. If a force of 4 to 6 g is sustained for more than a few seconds, the resulting symptoms range from visual impairment to total blackout. Protection is provided by a specially designed outfit, called an anti-g suit, which supplies pressure to the abdomen and legs, thus counteracting the tendency for blood to accumulate in those areas. Proper support of the head is essential during extreme acceleration in order to avoid swelling of the sinuses and severe headaches. While facing backward in a seated position, properly supported human test subjects have been able to tolerate a deceleration force of 50 g without severe injury. [The first paragraph of this student's essay is entirely plagiarized from the Aerospace Medicine entry in Funk & Wagnall's Encyclopedia. I did not discover this until a year after it was submitted.]

The acceleration that causes blackouts in fighter pilots is called the maximum g-force. Fighter pilots experience this force when accelerating or decelerating quickly. At high g's the pilots blood pressure changes and the flow of oxygen to the brain rapidly decreases. This happens because the pressure outside of the pilot's body is so much greater than the pressure a human is normally accustomed to. One human body handles g's different then another. The areas that are under investigation of the maximum g-force are:

1. seat back angle,
2. layoff (time away from the cockpit), and
3. comparison of female to male tolerance/endurance.

Work on a special suit to increase the g's a human body can handle had started during World War Two. Pilots at that time experienced blackouts when coming out of fast turns or when dropping altitude quickly. The work on special g-suits still continues today. Modern fighter pilots can handle g's that a human body would never have been able to tolerate previously.

Phillip Andriyevsky -- 1998

Aerospace Medicine" Encarta. Redmond, WA: Microsoft, 1997.

"If a force form 4 to 6 G is sustained for more than a few seconds, the resulting symptoms range from visual impairment to total blackout."

Aerospace Medicine. Funk & Wagnall's Encyclopedia.

"If a force of 4 to 6 g is sustained for more than a few seconds, the resulting symptoms range from visual impairment to total blackout."

4–6 g

[Darkmouse]

∆ routine has got nothing to do with it, you as a pilot are able to anticipate the g as you manoeuvre - it is only when you are not in control ie backseat that this is a challenge. 

 

I have never flown an aircraft with a reclined seat, but suspect it has less impact than people think - although I'm not entirely current, if it was particularly effective, you'd expect most modern fighters to incorporate it, and they don't. 

 

I am still struggling to tally these 'research papers' that people are quoting with what I observe on a daily basis. The only conclusion I have come to is that the test subjects were not accustomed to g and were making zero attempt to counter it's effects - and whilst specific training here is helpful, straining against g is actually quite intuitive - no one sits there floppy, like a sack of shit and just takes it. 

 

Ultimately this discussion is not going to be 'won' by either side. I have my opinion, based on my experience, and other people will have theirs, backed up the research they are providing. 

 

I think we can all agree, accurate or not (and as I have stated before I don't think it is far off), it is a vast improvement on the previous system, and makes for a much more enjoyable game. 

[Blackhawk_FR]

6 hours ago, KG200_Achilleus said:

back then you told me from your experience that this maneuver is well over 5-6Gs thats why the blackout came.

 

On 10/8/2019 at 7:26 PM, F/JG300_Faucon said:

For sure the way you do your barrel roll, you take a lot of G for sure, I bet more than 5. 

 

"I bet more than 5" doesn't mean "well over 5-6G". 

The barrel roll of Requiem showed that he blacked out at a certain amount of G. So I also simply conclude in another message that if you lost your consciousness in your barrel roll, that undeniably mean you took more G. 

 

Another thing to make sure: black out is not a G lock (loss of consciousness).

 

We can talk for dozen years like this "You said 6 and not 5G, for 3sec", "no I said 6G for 4 sec"... so let's just stop it.

 

We agree on one thing: this new model improve a lot the game overall. Some will think it's close from perfection, some will say it's overdone, the rest it's underdone. 

The dev team won't care (and it's normal) about isolated opinions, even if it's coming from very experienced aerobatic pilots. The way a pilot resist to G load can be completely different from another pilot, or from another day, another year... 

I had the chance to fly with the Breitling jet team yesterday (L39). One of the pilot told me his G tolerance strangly decreased for a whole year with unknown reasons. To give an idea those pilots take 6/7G in their flights with a g suit. 

During the flight, I was not in a good shape and I almost blacked out at 4/4,5G just in 2sec. 

A week ago I tried a steady 4,5G turn and started to have a grey out after 5 or 6sec. 

It just show (for the same guy) how much the G tolerance can change depending if you're in a good shape or not (and many other factors).

 

So as someone said just above, it's a very subjective discussion until you can show the conclusion of real tests with a large amount of data that will represent the average G tolerance of a pilot.

 

 

[KG200_Achilleus]

On 10/9/2019 at 8:49 PM, F/JG300_Faucon said:

On 10/9/2019 at 2:30 PM, KG200_Achilleus said:

Over 5G?so maybe 6?7?

is this enough for a pilot to blackout in 2 sec?

 

For me, no, it's not enough. Except if you are tired. 4 seconds can be enough.

 

We can't discuss more until we have an accelerometer in game (I've read tacview is not precise enough).

Edited Wednesday at 08:50 PM by F/JG300_Faucon

I focused more at this last post of yours more than previous ones.

But anyway, you are right about this,

no need to debate again and again if it was 5Gs or 6 Gs or 7Gs,

neither to say again and again if this last “physiology” add on is a changer or not, we all agreed to that, as we all agreed that it is a no going back to previous patch.

We just make some thoughts and thats all,it is very logical to do so the time we are not sure for something.

Now, just focus to my last video,i tried in previous post to represent the time between 5G entering zone and when the blackout occurred,

and as i understand, it occurred in just 0.5second when i touch 6Gs, and only 2 seconds from the time i went to the 5Gs zone up to 6G and the eventually total blackedout.. 

For me, 27years on sims..never saw that again, in any sim ww2 or modern..

For some others real life flyers, also looks a little bit weird..

thats all..

 

p.s. And please do not sabotage the previous il2 game and represent it as a prehistoric fake ww2 sim,

at least on this game the wooden planes had some real life dive speeds, and a realistic enough G effect feature...;)))

Edited October 15, 2019 by KG200_Achilleus

[Guest deleted@134347]

5 minutes ago, KG200_Achilleus said:

I focused more at this last post of yours more than previous ones.

But anyway, you are right about this,

no need to debate again and again if it was 5Gs or 6 Gs or 7Gs,

neither to say again and again if this last “physiology” add on is a changer or not, we all agreed to that, as we all agreed that it is a no going back to previous patch.

We just make some thoughts and thats all,it is very logical to do so the time we are not sure for something.

Now, just focus to my last video,i tried in previous post to represent the time between 5G entering zone and when the blackout occurred,

and as i understand, it occurred in just 0.5second when i touch 6Gs, and only 2 seconds from the time i went to the 5Gs zone up to 6G and the eventually total blackedout.. 

For me, 27years on sims..never saw that again, in any sim ww2 or modern..

For some others real life flyers, also looks a little bit weird..

thats all..

 

p.s. And please do not sabotage the previous il2 game and represent it as a prehistoric fake ww2 sim,

at least on this game the wooden planes had some real life dive speeds...;)))

 

wondering if you tried it with an 109 other than F4 ?

 

On Berloga I noticed the F4 induces the gray outs / black outs much much quicker/sooner than let's say G4 or G6. And it's gotten to be so annoying that I stopped flying it and switched to G6, which to my surprise becomes an extremely agile aircraft with excellent energy retention and maneuvering capabilities.

 

May be it's an F4 elevator action that's overdone rather than looking at the 2d maneuver/gauges.  Yes, it's physics, bla bla.. 

 

[WWDriftwood]

Lots of great info here. I'm a fan of the g effects, takes some getting used to and of course some behavior might be a little questionable but I'll leave that to the dev's and real pilots to discuss. 

 

On 10/13/2019 at 9:02 AM, KG200_Achilleus said:

Are those G's in the right center side of the window realistic?

 

Watching the video with the g meter made me wish there was an option to display g's in the hud for training. I typically fly with everything off but would use that to train. 

 

For the g turn test to 6 g's and blacking out it looks like it takes about 4-5 seconds pulling back on the stick before blacking out. It also looks like there's no adjustment in the stick but it's hard to tell in the video. So if you pull back on the stick to get to 6 g's and hold the stick in that position until your speed bleeds off and you come out of the g's. I'd probably do a few more tests changing how aggressive you are as you pull back on the stick, time it takes to a 6 g turn as well as backing off on the stick as you get closer to 6 g's. Then there's doing this when your pilot is fresh, no "g" stress on the body verses doing the turns 1, 2, 3, ...8 times in a row. 

 

Maybe test with more consistent entry speed, same turn, pull back on the stick and note how fast you went from 0-6 g's in seconds or count it off... 

Try backing off on the stick before a complete blackout as prat of the test and hold the blackout so your visibility is limited to a small circle without completely blacking out. How many g's can you hold at what speeds, etc.

 

Do the same test and extend the time it takes to go from 0-6 g's, 4 sec, 5 sec, etc.as you pull back on the stick and hold the black for the least amount of viability without completely blacking out. (again do it with a fresh pilot, then repeat until the pilots fatigue is obvious.) Can you hold higher g turns for longer times if you just ease up on the stick as you enter and sustain your high g turn? 

 

Do the same tests and change your trim/stabilizer. Nose up you'll your prone to quicker blackouts. 

 

I think pilots with extensions on there sticks will have an easier time adjusting since they have a much larger range of motion. Example only - Standard stick 3-6" verses 10-18". There's no adjustments to compensate for the range of motion, even sensitivity can't make up for physically pulling back on your stick 3" verses 12".

3" is just more sensitive than 12" (as an example only)

 

The challenge for me is figuring out the different entry speeds and adjusting my timing in how aggressive I am when pulling back on the stick and unloading the stick or countering a positive g move with a negative g move at just the right time. 

 

Doing max dives and losing deflection can be deceiving as your speed drops and suddenly you have full deflection and blackout if you don't unload the stick in time or as needed.

 

Pilot Physical Shape and sounds as you stress the pilot

For me what's missing is some indication that me/my pilot is getting tired, physically exhausted as I fly and pull lower g's that show no effect for extended periods of time.

• If I pull hard the pilot huff/puffs/ooooooof or ooof, ooooof.
• Pull/push back/forward more grey/pink
• more, visibility is narrowed till you black/red out completely

 

This is great, but if I'm flying around for 15 minutes pulling a lot of g's without grey/pink back/red outs....

There is no indication that me/my pilot is physically exhausted and is more prone to back/red outs resulting in much much quick black/red outs. 

 

Suggestion would be to add sound options for exhaustion. The pilot starts to breathe harder or just some added breathing building up indicating levels of exhaustion.  (just a suggestion)

 

That's the missing piece for me, no indication of how my pilot is doing as he gets tired out or has recovered and a length of recovery time that indicates my pilot has fully recovered. 

 

But I love the new g effects and it's effeminately make me a better more energy efficient pilot. 

 

AI seem to crash more...... 

I've notice the AI planes that dive low are very crash happy. I assume this is a result of the g's? I set some practice mission that I'd take off, fly around an airfield until the bandits come in. If I flew low they would dive and fire on me. Now, then just dive and make a hole in the ground... 

 

Well that's more then my 2 cents worth of opinions and observations for the month... 

 

Thanks for the info from the fellow pilots and great work as usual dev's..... 

 

DW

 

Edited October 15, 2019 by WWDriftwood

[SirFlappy]

I like the new effects, it makes the dogfights more interesting along with better AI tactics which have improved a bit.

 I only fly offline against vet or ace AI ,and my only gripe as mentioned by a few others is the tendency for the buggers to fly into the ground too often.

I am very pleased that they are suffering from G effects like me, but I feel these effects are a bit overdone in the AI.

  This is difficult as I would not like to see as a result of "moans" by they likes of myself a dumbing down of the G effect on AI to a degree that they have an advantage over me,but rather just a slight (very slight) tweeking to the  AI blackout point.

  If the same amount crashed during the war as they do now, we would have been better off to remove all guns to save weight and just perform "chase me" aerobatics till they all crashed.

   All that said ...well done on the update so far! ...........come on " CHASE ME" ( ps: you have to be older than 40 and British for the GIF.. good times!!)

Edited October 15, 2019 by SirFlappy

[von_Michelstamm]

Side effect of physiology, it's forced me to stop lazily turn fighting as much and truly live in the vertical. Which has opened up planes i didn't really use much before, like the 109G series, and forced me to actually learn to fly 190s properly. The game has gotten a lot more fun and fluid now, rather than just repeating the same exact routines against the AI over and over.
 

[Pict]

1 hour ago, SirFlappy said:

ps: you have to be older than 40 and British for the GIF.. good times!!

 

Super smashin' great, oh what a lovely couple, come and look at what you could have won 

 

 

Edited October 15, 2019 by Pict

[Gambit21]

4 hours ago, F/JG300_Faucon said:

 

 

"I bet more than 5" doesn't mean "well over 5-6G". 

The barrel roll of Requiem showed that he blacked out at a certain amount of G. So I also simply conclude in another message that if you lost your consciousness in your barrel roll, that undeniably mean you took more G. 

 

Another thing to make sure: black out is not a G lock (loss of consciousness).

 

We can talk for dozen years like this "You said 6 and not 5G, for 3sec", "no I said 6G for 4 sec"... so let's just stop it.

 

We agree on one thing: this new model improve a lot the game overall. Some will think it's close from perfection, some will say it's overdone, the rest it's underdone. 

The dev team won't care (and it's normal) about isolated opinions, even if it's coming from very experienced aerobatic pilots. The way a pilot resist to G load can be completely different from another pilot, or from another day, another year... 

I had the chance to fly with the Breitling jet team yesterday (L39). One of the pilot told me his G tolerance strangly decreased for a whole year with unknown reasons. To give an idea those pilots take 6/7G in their flights with a g suit. 

During the flight, I was not in a good shape and I almost blacked out at 4/4,5G just in 2sec. 

A week ago I tried a steady 4,5G turn and started to have a grey out after 5 or 6sec. 

It just show (for the same guy) how much the G tolerance can change depending if you're in a good shape or not (and many other factors).

 

So as someone said just above, it's a very subjective discussion until you can show the conclusion of real tests with a large amount of data that will represent the average G tolerance of a pilot.

 

 

 

To what extent do you think lack of stick forces/increased control surface authority plays in to all of this?

 

[Pict]

1 hour ago, SirFlappy said:

I only fly offline against vet or ace AI ,and my only gripe as mentioned by a few others is the tendency for the buggers to fly into the ground too often.

 

Try the random AI setting, that's what I always use and they give you a good scrap without much drama. Try going against the Macchi's, I tried as hard as I could to get one to lawn dart but he just stayed with me.

[SirFlappy]

I agree the Macchi's seem better than some.......maybe the Itie pilots are all rat arsed on Campari and are half blacked out already,cancelling out the G effect!!

 "The Jim Bowen Rap"..... "They say im a cult"....good old British innuendo?

Edited October 15, 2019 by SirFlappy

[KG200_Achilleus]

On 10/15/2019 at 6:01 PM, Darkmouse said:

I think we can all agree, accurate or not (and as I have stated before I don't think it is far off), it is a vast improvement on the previous system, and makes for a much more enjoyable game. 

With all respect, watch the video below and tell me please(i know you have told it before,but just for this video), from your experience if this is normal or close to normal to happen..

a simple right turn(i cant imagine how this turn could be softer while in a fight) with max 5.5Gs...

just 3-4 seconds at the 4-5Gs zone are really enough?and you call this questionable maybe accurate?

Gmeter at bottom right corner..

first right level turn:

video's time 0.38 - 4Gs

0.39 - 4.75Gs

0.40 - 5.15Gs

0.41 - 5.20Gs and blackout beggins to occure..

 

second right level turn:

1.17 - 4Gs

1.18 - 5Gs

1.19 - 4.9Gs

1.20 - 5.2Gs and blackout

 

third left level turn:

1.47 - 3.5Gs

1.48 - 4.5Gs

1.49 - 5.1Gs

1.50 - 5.3Gs and blackout

 

P.S. is this an "ufo" maneuver and i haven't noticed it so long....?

 

 

Edited October 16, 2019 by KG200_Achilleus

[Lusekofte]

I am mostly used to get bounced and after using vr and flying in planes without mirrors even more so. Difference now is instant loss of consciousness and 100% fatality in special flying the Tempest. 
I know there are many factors working in this scenario. But the feeling of a too restrict regime is in my mind legit   

[Guest deleted@134347]

21 minutes ago, LuseKofte said:

I am mostly used to get bounced and after using vr and flying in planes without mirrors even more so. Difference now is instant loss of consciousness and 100% fatality in special flying the Tempest. 
I know there are many factors working in this scenario. But the feeling of a too restrict regime is in my mind legit   

 

dive down instead of up...  Also, it's obviously aircraft dependent and with Tempest having a pretty serious elevator authority you can't just pedal to the medal in it whilst going 350mph. If you're at slower speeds you can still do all of the pre-patch culbits without problems. It's the high velocity + angle + Up elevator that gets ya.

[WWDriftwood]

1 hour ago, KG200_Achilleus said:

a simple right turn(i cant imagine how this turn could be softer while in a fight) with max 5.5Gs...

just 3-4 seconds at the 4-5Gs zone are really enough?and you call this questionable maybe accurate?

Gmeter at bottom right corner..

first right level turn:

video's time 0.38 - 4Gs

0.39 - 4.75Gs

0.40 - 5.15Gs

0.41 - 5.20Gs and blackout beggins to occure..

 

second right level turn:

1.17 - 4Gs

1.18 - 5Gs

1.19 - 4.9Gs

1.20 - 5.2Gs and blackout

 

third left level turn:

1.47 - 3.5Gs

1.48 - 4.5Gs

1.49 - 5.1Gs

1.50 - 5.3Gs and blackout

 

Thanks for the video, I looked at the entry speeds and time in turn, energy exchange. 

 

You can look at the specs for max turn, turn speeds, etc. then experiment with your entry speeds and how aggressive you can turn at those speed. This way in a fight you have a better idea of what's going to happen while engaging at X#### speed. 

 

You might experiment with entry speed and turning 90 deg, 180 deg, etc. entered at X### speed. Just to get a feel for what you can do. 

 

Time is based on Bank to turn, enter turn to grey, black/or/blackout, grey, level recovery. 

 

Hopefully I did the math right, 

 

Turn One - Heading 307 to 208

99 degree turn

14-15 second turn / 460-380 / 80 mph exchange

Speeds

Enter turn 460

Grey 445

Black 440

Grey 375

Level 380

 

Turn Two - Heading 209 to 030

181 degree turn

12-13 second turn / 500-465 / 35 mph exchange

Enter turn 500

Grey 485

Black 480

Grey 465

Level 465 - energy after turn

 

Turn Three - Heading 030 to 240

150 degree turn

10-11 seconds / 498-446 / 52 mph exchange

Enter Turn 498

Grey 463

Black 453

Blackout 446

Grey 446

Level 446

 

So entering at 500 kph and not being to aggressive you can turn 180 degrees in 12-13 seconds, pending how fast you bank and get into your turn, etc. 

Doing this a little to aggressive put you into a full blackout and you only achieved 150 degrees for a shorter time in turn but a longer pilot recovery since you blacked out, so your screwed for additional turns since blacking out will now be more sensitive. 

 

But here is a test to try. Video this so you can evaluate... 

TURN OFF YOUR PILOT EFFECTS.... 

now do the same turn. Faster/or/Slower/ how much difference is there in turn speed. 

Enter the turn at 500 kph, no blackouts on, so as you please.... 

Make the same turn only do it as you please, pull as hard/soft as you like for the turn to see how much faster you can turn 180 degrees....... 

 

Now note, was it faster without blackouts? 

Did you bleed off a lot more speed much quicker? If so, how much? 

How long did it take you to turn 180 degrees without blackouts? 

 

Some might find they turn quicker with blackouts because it prevents you from killing your speed with a radical move... 

Of course, if you wanted to do some radical move/will say unrealistic move for the sake of argument/ then you can't with blackouts on. 

 

I'm still testing my speeds with the Spitfire Mk.VB.... fun stuff. 

 

Edited October 16, 2019 by WWDriftwood

[Lusekofte]

49 minutes ago, moosya said:

 

dive down instead of up...  Also, it's obviously aircraft dependent and with Tempest having a pretty serious elevator authority you can't just pedal to the medal in it whilst going 350mph. If you're at slower speeds you can still do all of the pre-patch culbits without problems. It's the high velocity + angle + Up elevator that gets ya.

You might be right that I pull too hard. I am just a bit open for there will be some small adjustments. Not at all against non of the new things. 

[Guest deleted@134347]

6 minutes ago, LuseKofte said:

You might be right that I pull too hard. I am just a bit open for there will be some small adjustments. Not at all against non of the new things. 

 

that's the interesting thing about the new patch and the plane preferences. Before you'd just get the fastest and the most agile aircraft and be done with it. But now, you actually need to think about what kind of targets you'll encounter and select the machine that fits your attacking/defensive maneuvering abilities.

[Lusekofte]

Well I have fallen in love with the P 47. And we had that for a while. Less embarrassing getting shot down in.  

[Requiem]

Just adding this from the other thread which was locked as these videos with the graphing show sustained G in the P51 with a G suit.

 

"Here are some examples of the current model next to a graph showing the G-forces in play in the P-51D (with G-suit). I flew these and sent the tracks to @Floppy_Sock who was kind enough to add his real-time graphing to the videos you'll see in the folder linked below. Floppy is working on similar Spitfire IX versions on at the moment (no G-suit). There is one of my 109 tests in there too I think.

 

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1jmQO_dOuTkRjYBSJTTX-HLMs43SZMAxu

• P-51 5G sustained (about 90 secs)
• P-51 6G Sustained (about 70 secs)
• P-51 7G sustained (about 30 secs)
• P-51 Max G to blackout
• P-51 Max G to blackout but no loss of consciousness"

[KG200_Achilleus]

8 hours ago, WWDriftwood said:

Some might find they turn quicker with blackouts because it prevents you from killing your speed with a radical move... 

Of course, if you wanted to do some radical move/will say unrealistic move for the sake of argument/ then you can't with blackouts on. 

 

I'm still testing my speeds with the Spitfire Mk.VB.... fun stuff. 

 

My friend, thank you for your research,

really appreciate it.

It could be very helpful if the theme to my last post was “how to complete a fast turn- with min speed loss without blacking out”..

but it wasn't,

the post made to represent(one more time) the G limit and how quickly the blackouts are occurring even at a simple maneuver(just a smooth turn), and probably they wouldn't at those times.(at least in reality)

 

[WWDriftwood]

12 hours ago, KG200_Achilleus said:

My friend, thank you for your research,

really appreciate it.

It could be very helpful if the theme to my last post was “how to complete a fast turn- with min speed loss without blacking out”..

but it wasn't,

the post made to represent(one more time) the G limit and how quickly the blackouts are occurring even at a simple maneuver(just a smooth turn), and probably they wouldn't at those times.(at least in reality)

 

 

But that was kind of my point, how quickly blackouts are occurring based on your turn examples compared to what the aircraft is cable of doing in real life. So achieving some consistent turns to try and match real world turn rates, how fast can I turn 90, 180 degrees, degrees a second, at what entry speeds and altitudes, etc. Can I match, exceed, or not turn as fast as the real world aircraft? Then while doing this and matching the info, how do the g effects respond.

 

So one place to start is try to achieve the fastest turn rates, various max turns, dives, etc. without blacking out and compare that to real world numbers. 

 

Pulling on a virtual flight stick is so easy and typically a much less distance to travel from center to back/forward, I think it's greatly underestimated how much of an affect that has on timing and blacking out quickly. So the actual video test you did are missing a lot of info for comparison as well as consistent turn examples. 

 

I read some real pilots respond on the forum and wonder how much they consider the differences in RW aircraft/verses/Virtual aircraft in the flight controls. It's such a subtle difference in timing, speed loss, etc. 

 

Maybe someone on the forum could provide some practical test that can be done for different aircraft demonstrating turn performances in the sim verses real world, and then look at how the g effects are implemented as the flight test is done. 

 

So many variables.