VR (Index) vs. Monitor (FullHD & 4K) pictures compasiron

[chiliwili69]

I just wanted to compare the resolution of one of the latest VR devices (Valve Index) with the Monitor (in FullHD and also 4K). This is one of the aspects which is critical to many monitor users who are still not convinced by the VR resolution.

I reused the same pictures and the flight records that I recently created to compare the Index with the Pimax5K+ in this thread.

 

I used the same settings for the monitor than in VR (ie AAx2, High settings, etc) and I rescaled the images to get about the same size, so we can compare how much detail we find in each picture.

All the native screenshots raw, crops and combo images can be downloaded from here. They are better to compare with your own image viewer.

 

You will see that VR is getting better, I would say a little bit above FullHD now, but it is still far from the 4K resolution. Perhaps the HP Reverb will be closer, but there are also other aspects to consider in a VR device. We will see.

 

Here I just put some pictures, enjoy:

 

 

 

 

and the ship!

[SharpeXB]

It’s not just the raw resolution that’s the issue. It’s the viewing distance. The monitor will appear much sharper because at normal distance you won’t perceive the pixels as much, in the case of 4K you will barely see them at all. The HMD is up close to your eye/ life sized. 

In order to simulate 20/20 vision a VR headset would need to literally project that resolution on its lenses, which is currently impossible. A monitor can make better use of the zoom view to achieve that effect. The VR zoom view is awkward and sickness inducing. 

 

The Valve Index image looks just awful IMO. Way too soft. It’s going to be a very long time before VR is ready for flight sims in that regard. 

This sim looks flat out gorgeous in 2160p/ Ultra. Those images persuade me to stick with a monitor. 

 

Are you taking those screen screen shots with a cell phone? Because 4K looks way better than what you’re posting. 

Edited July 7, 2019 by SharpeXB

[A_radek]

It looks exactly like that on a 4k 2xaa/ ultra settings.

I agree Vr is far from 20/20 vision but let's face it.. a flat monitor is not is not even starting to resemble any kind of vision unless your blind on one eye and can't move.

[SharpeXB]

22 minutes ago, SvAF/F16_radek said:

I agree Vr is far from 20/20 vision but let's face it.. a flat monitor is not is not even starting to resemble any kind of vision unless your blind on one eye and can't move.

You can see much much better in this game using a monitor than in VR. That won’t change for quite a long time. 

 

 

And it’s not really necessary to post images of the game. We all own it and know what it looks like. And most everyone here has seen or tried a VR headset by now. They’re nothing new either. 

 

Edited July 7, 2019 by SharpeXB

[dburne]

37 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

 

And it’s not really necessary to post images of the game. We all own it and know what it looks like. And most everyone here has seen or tried a VR headset by now. They’re nothing new either. 

 

 

I would venture to say  the majority of folks with IL-2 still have not yet tried VR.

More and more are jumping in as time progresses but will probably be a little while before the majority has had a go with it.

Mainly due to the cost and hardware to run it.

 

[Thad]

Salutations,

 

I've been interested in VR for over a year. Still, (as a graphic quality whore) I refuse to waste the money until manufacturers improve the graphic quality. 

 

From what little I have read lately, there have been improvements.

 

What Is the general consensus for the best visual quality VR equipment for the price currently. Thanks. 

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, dburne said:

I would venture to say  the majority of folks with IL-2 still have not yet tried VR

Anyone with access to an electronics store and who’s into this kinda stuff has tried one I’m sure. 

[WIS-Redcoat]

It’s getting there!  I am very happy with my Index

[Dakpilot]

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Anyone with access to an electronics store and who’s into this kinda stuff has tried one I’m sure. 

 

There are still plenty of places in the world where this is not so simple s one may think.... 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

[NiiranenVR]

Thad and other 

There im a little opposite

I have only played the game with VR 

And for me if no VR / no game 

 

I'm happy there coming newer and better glasses - and later I change to better one 

But it's ? with me to follow the quality of the marked of VR 

[J2_Steve]

10 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Anyone with access to an electronics store and who’s into this kinda stuff has tried one I’m sure. 

I've yet to see anywhere that demo's VR in London. 

So not as cut and dried as you think. I first tried VR by actually buying a Rift, based on feedback I'd seen on this and other forum.

 

IMO, the info Chili puts out there is very valuable, images included

 

[SharpeXB]

45 minutes ago, J2_SteveF said:

I've yet to see anywhere that demo's VR in London. 

So not as cut and dried as you think. I first tried VR by actually buying a Rift, based on feedback I'd seen on this and other forum.

 

IMO, the info Chili puts out there is very valuable, images included

 

That’s too bad. They’re everywhere here. 

 

The images are are a bit misleading. Not really misleading as everyone knows what this game looks like on a screen. 

But the monitor examples are all enlarged to the point of seeing pixels and jaggies. Nobody would see that looking at their own monitor unless their nose was pressed against it. There’s not really an accurate way to compare monitor vs headset images. 

[WheelwrightPL]

Looks like Valve Index VR does very nice antialiasing compared to 4k which still shows jaggies. So VR may be the winner for people who hate jaggies but don't care much about spotting at 1-2 km+.

31 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

But the monitor examples are all enlarged to the point of seeing pixels and jaggies. Nobody would see that looking at their own monitor unless their nose was pressed against it. There’s not really an accurate way to compare monitor vs headset images. 

 

Well, some people (like me for example) do view their monitors from very close where the jaggies are clearly visible even in 4k.

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, WheelwrightPL said:

Well, some people (like me for example) do view their monitors from very close where the jaggies are clearly visible even in 4k.

Yeah you can perceive jaggies in 4K but a small amount of antialiasing will smooth them out. 2x is enough. The best viewing distance for a monitor of any resolution is where you aren’t perceiving jaggies. 

1 hour ago, WheelwrightPL said:

So VR may be the winner for people who hate jaggies but don't care much about spotting at 1-2 km+.

VR is the “winner for people who hate jaggies”? VR is full of jaggies. And everyone cares about spotting targets at 1-2 km+

This is where VR is really inadequate for flight sims. You need the ability to see and identify other aircraft at suitable ranges. 

16 hours ago, SvAF/F16_radek said:

It looks exactly like that on a 4k 2xaa/ ultra settings.

This is not what a player sees on a 4K monitor unless they are pressing their nose up to the screen. What you’re showing is a tiny crop of the actual 2160x3840 screen. 

Its funny that you’re trying to mislead people about image quality when everyone owns this game and can easily see this for themselves.  

Edited July 8, 2019 by SharpeXB

[A_radek]

Not sure who you are referring to when accusing of misleading. The Image I posted is of course a crop. The original is right here, and the area me and chili posted previously marked with orange. The through the lens shot from the Valve index was taken from the exact same recording with the exact same ingame-camera distance to this ship, and it was also cropped.

 

So a direct comparison of clarity between monitor and Valve index. Would you compare any other way? Perhaps camera pictures from 1.8 meters away? As that is the distance I don't perceive jaggies on that ship anymore running a 32 4k Ips panel. Is 2x aa ok? Perhaps an increase in AA to make things more representative here? 

 

[SharpeXB]

5 minutes ago, SvAF/F16_radek said:

Not sure who you are referring to when accusing of misleading. The Image I posted is of course a crop.

A crop is misleading or really just irrelevant. It’s not “misleading” i suppose since everyone knows what a screen looks like. 

Nobody actually sees a crop like that in the game. 

It really isn’t relevant to compare monitor and headset resolution like that. This whole thread doesn’t make sense. 

[J2_Bidu]

18 hours ago, SvAF/F16_radek said:

... and can't move.

 

What do you mean?

[dburne]

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

 

VR is the “winner for people who hate jaggies”? VR is full of jaggies. And everyone cares about spotting targets at 1-2 km+

This is where VR is really inadequate for flight sims. You need the ability to see and identify other aircraft at suitable ranges. 

This is not what a player sees on a 4K monitor unless they are pressing their nose up to the screen. What you’re showing is a tiny crop of the actual 2160x3840 screen. 

Its funny that you’re trying to mislead people about image quality when everyone owns this game and can easily see this for themselves.  

 

You really should not appear to speak for "everyone".

There are plenty that like VR and would not game any other way now, and plenty that do not like it and will not partake until 

the devices progress more. And some that do both.

 

I do not think Chili created this thread with the intention to start a debate on monitor versus VR.

It seems to me he created it try and give a comparison on what he sees with his Index versus what he sees on his monitor.

Not to argue the merits of one over the other.

 

 

[J2_Bidu]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

It really isn’t relevant to compare monitor and headset resolution like that. This whole thread doesn’t make sense. 

 

I somehow find it interesting.

[Alonzo]

11 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

And everyone cares about spotting targets at 1-2 km+

This is where VR is really inadequate for flight sims. You need the ability to see and identify other aircraft at suitable ranges. 

 

Here's Talon on his first night with the Rift S (which has marginally worse resolution than the Valve Index, but not by much). He spots and kills 4 targets including spotting stuff 20,000 feet below him.

 

 

There are a few folks who are hating on VR and saying it's a waste of money until the resolution improves. I find that baffling and sad. Most people who have tried VR, even the first generation stuff 3 years ago, are raving about being inside the cockpit for the first time. Giggling like schoolkids. Saying they'll never go back to pancake mode. Yet there's all this VR hate coming from a handful of people. Baffling.

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, Alonzo said:

There are a few folks who are hating on VR and saying it's a waste of money until the resolution improves.

It’s not just a few people. It seems to be the chief complaint among VR users. Along with performance problems. It’s not “hating”, it’s just a fact. 

No doubt the resolution will improve with further development of the hardware. 

 

Thats an awesome video btw. But it’s a 1080p track replay. That’s not what the sim looks like to the HMD wearer. I’ve tried them and they aren’t as sharp as what you see in that video. 

Edited July 9, 2019 by SharpeXB

[DD_Crash]

We get it YOU dont think VR is worth it/ isnt good enough yet. However a lot of my squad members who have tried it think that the loss of resolution and FoV is an acceptable price to pay. Even one who felt that it would hamper his combat experience loves it, which goes to prove that its a personal view.

[J2_Bidu]

I bought a 3D TV. I've used the feature a couple of times and it hardly justifies fetching the glasses.

 

Disclaimer: never used a 3D headset; I imagine by most people's comments it must be rather interesting. But 3D TV seemed interesting too, and the way to go. Oh, now I'm sure I have aged.

[HunDread]

23 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

VR is the “winner for people who hate jaggies”? VR is full of jaggies. And everyone cares about spotting targets at 1-2 km+

This is where VR is really inadequate for flight sims. You need the ability to see and identify other aircraft at suitable ranges. 

 

Distant spotting in VR is not harder than on monitors unless one uses some crazy high supersampling values. If anything it's easier as the pixels are closer to your eyes (so they look bigger).

 

ID'ing is much more difficult only for the reason that VR by default has a poor 2x toggle zoom while monitor users have superior 10x (?) slider zoom. This is not VR's fault. But luckily there is a solution for that as well in the 3dmigoto mod.

 

It's okay that you don't like VR and it's true that the resolution is not there yet as 4k monitor but your statements above are not true considering all facts.  

[SharpeXB]

5 hours ago, DD_Crash said:

We get it YOU dont think VR is worth it/ isnt good enough yet. 

Correct. Everybody gets an opinion.

[E69_Qpassa_VR]

On 7/9/2019 at 4:36 AM, Alonzo said:

 

Here's Talon on his first night with the Rift S (which has marginally worse resolution than the Valve Index, but not by much). He spots and kills 4 targets including spotting stuff 20,000 feet below him.

 

 

There are a few folks who are hating on VR and saying it's a waste of money until the resolution improves. I find that baffling and sad. Most people who have tried VR, even the first generation stuff 3 years ago, are raving about being inside the cockpit for the first time. Giggling like schoolkids. Saying they'll never go back to pancake mode. Yet there's all this VR hate coming from a handful of people. Baffling.

Time pass and we are happy playing VR, I don't care about these opinions, the only thing that worries me is the VR support by devs

On 7/9/2019 at 4:56 PM, HunDread said:

 

Distant spotting in VR is not harder than on monitors unless one uses some crazy high supersampling values. If anything it's easier as the pixels are closer to your eyes (so they look bigger).

 

ID'ing is much more difficult only for the reason that VR by default has a poor 2x toggle zoom while monitor users have superior 10x (?) slider zoom. This is not VR's fault. But luckily there is a solution for that as well in the 3dmigoto mod.

 

It's okay that you don't like VR and it's true that the resolution is not there yet as 4k monitor but your statements above are not true considering all facts.  

IDing is easy using lefuneste migoto mod

On 7/9/2019 at 2:08 PM, J2_Bidu said:

I bought a 3D TV. I've used the feature a couple of times and it hardly justifies fetching the glasses.

 

Disclaimer: never used a 3D headset; I imagine by most people's comments it must be rather interesting. But 3D TV seemed interesting too, and the way to go. Oh, now I'm sure I have aged.

Well, you are watching through a TV. In VR you are inside the cockpit. There's a huge difference 

[HunDread]

9 hours ago, E69_Qpassa_VR said:

On 7/9/2019 at 4:56 PM, HunDread said:

 

Distant spotting in VR is not harder than on monitors unless one uses some crazy high supersampling values. If anything it's easier as the pixels are closer to your eyes (so they look bigger).

 

ID'ing is much more difficult only for the reason that VR by default has a poor 2x toggle zoom while monitor users have superior 10x (?) slider zoom. This is not VR's fault. But luckily there is a solution for that as well in the 3dmigoto mod.

 

It's okay that you don't like VR and it's true that the resolution is not there yet as 4k monitor but your statements above are not true considering all facts.  

 

IDing is easy using lefuneste migoto mod

 

Like I said?

[Alonzo]

On 7/8/2019 at 9:16 PM, SharpeXB said:

It’s not just a few people. It seems to be the chief complaint among VR users. Along with performance problems. It’s not “hating”, it’s just a fact. 

No doubt the resolution will improve with further development of the hardware. 

 

Thats an awesome video btw. But it’s a 1080p track replay. That’s not what the sim looks like to the HMD wearer. I’ve tried them and they aren’t as sharp as what you see in that video. 

 

You've missed both my points.

 

First, it's just a few people complaining about the resolution. Most people are happy to trade immersion ("holy shit I'm in the plane!") and spatial awareness for marginally worse resolution. You shit on VR every day in the forums, so while I'm going to claim "a few" people are unhappy with the res, you're going to say "more than a few" and "chief complaint". I guess the truth is somewhere in the middle. I'm pretty sick of you shitting on VR while not having actually used it for gaming, only for architectural work.

 

Second, I'm not claiming anything about the video except for Talon's ability to spot distant targets and dunk on them, which directly refutes your claim about VR resolution being garbage and unusable for spotting. Rift S resolution is clearly perfectly adequate for competitive PvP combat. As you have said elsewhere the resolution isn't directly comparable (screen viewing distance vs stuck-to-your-eyeballs), and there are factors beyond mere resolution at play as well (for example being able to glimpse movement of an enemy plane naturally in VR and then hone in on it).

 

My bottom line is this: Today's VR headsets deliver an incredible, compelling, immersive, competitive experience that will blow away any previous 2D stuff someone has seen, and if you've got the money and the rig to support VR then you are missing out if you're "waiting for better headsets in future". VR has been mind blowing for years already and it just keeps getting better. Like all tech, of course next year's stuff will make this year's look outdated. But then you get to play on it and experience the heart pounding thrills for a year. I finish a tough dogfight or escape from a bad situation (or get shot down!) and I am sweating like a pig. No 2D experience ever did that. VR is here, and it's great. Anyone choosing to wait is missing out.

[SharpeXB]

4 minutes ago, Alonzo said:

 

You've missed both my points.

Snip...

 

jeesh you're defensive about this stuff. I can actually read everything that’s been said about VR here and outside of flight sims so I can tell what the consensus is on things like resolution. The good and the bad. One day I might try it gaming but probably not soon. 

[ACG_Macro]

I fly vr.  Was put off by some of the regular negatives mentioned here but glad i took the plunge.  

 

Yes resolution not as high as 2d screen.  Yes im not as competitive.

Yes i find it harder to spot and track contacts during combat and get killed more often.

Yes i cant have an owls neck turning ability i had with track ir.

 

There are downsides but its so worth it for me.  Im in the cockpit in a 3d world.  With all the negative (and true) points im still not going back to 2d.  It entirely depends on why/how YOU want to play.

 

If you play to be the best pilot you can be then vr might not be for you at the moment. I want to fly war planes in as real setting as possible.  

 

 

[FTC_Snowy]

I’ve been using flight sims off and on since the the PC XT days and every advance, from the first sound cards to VR, has been welcomed by me. It is a personal choice if you invest in these things. I welcomed TrackIR back in the day, with all the limitations, VR is not perfect and will no doubt get better over time but by golly it sure is immersive and I use it exclusively for IL-2 now. To each their own. Enjoy IL-2 however you like.

[Dirt_Merchant]

@chiliwili69 Thanks for this thread my dude! Don't let @SharpeXB get you down with his vitriol, he speaks only for himself. 

[schnitzelbubba]

when the real dogfighting comes my chad vr-neck will destroy all of u puny 2d-necks

blyat potato vodka

[Georgio]

It's funny, having indulged in combat flight sims since the original Red Baron back in 1989 it always makes me laugh when a new advance in tech comes along and people start deriding it. First I remember was when the Voodoo cards hit, 'OMFG dis card is cheating as they can get 10fps'.

Then it was TrackIR or in it's original incarnation Natural point a gizmo to allow people to move a mouse. I imported the original unit form the States and being able to 'mouselook' around the cockpit gave me a fantastic experience.

Again the tech dodgers  wer eout in force 'OMFFFFFFFFFFFGGGGGGGGGGGGod, U cheatin' mutha' etc, etc.

Then a brief flirtation with Nvidia shutter glasses which gave a very small hint of the goodness to come with true VR.

And finally we are at VR which gives the greatest immersion and satisfaction bar none and once again the naysayers are out in force but mark my words, monitor flight-simming is in it's death spasm with VR as it is the only viable future.

I'm just glad I'm still around to welcome in a new dawn of gaming.... 

[dburne]

19 minutes ago, Georgio said:

It's funny, having indulged in combat flight sims since the original Red Baron back in 1989 it always makes me laugh when a new advance in tech comes along and people start deriding it. First I remember was when the Voodoo cards hit, 'OMFG dis card is cheating as they can get 10fps'.

Then it was TrackIR or in it's original incarnation Natural point a gizmo to allow people to move a mouse. I imported the original unit form the States and being able to 'mouselook' around the cockpit gave me a fantastic experience.

Again the tech dodgers  wer eout in force 'OMFFFFFFFFFFFGGGGGGGGGGGGod, U cheatin' mutha' etc, etc.

Then a brief flirtation with Nvidia shutter glasses which gave a very small hint of the goodness to come with true VR.

And finally we are at VR which gives the greatest immersion and satisfaction bar none and once again the naysayers are out in force but mark my words, monitor flight-simming is in it's death spasm with VR as it is the only viable future.

I'm just glad I'm still around to welcome in a new dawn of gaming.... 

 

I am with you there.

I first gamed in VR with a Rift CV1 in Jan 2017, have not gamed on the monitor since.

[SharpeXB]

7 hours ago, Georgio said:

And finally we are at VR which gives the greatest immersion and satisfaction bar none and once again the naysayers are out in force 

The difference between VR and all those other technologies is that those were actually an advantage. VR has many benefits but competitiveness In gaming isn’t one. Nobody is worried that VR confers an advantage. Quite the opposite actually. 

Edited November 23, 2019 by SharpeXB

[Talon_]

On 11/23/2019 at 1:10 AM, SharpeXB said:

Nobody is worried that VR confers an advantage. Quite the opposite actually. 

 

That's your opinion, but it's not reflected in player stats. CB last month featured a healthy mix of players I know are in VR and some that I think are in VR scattered throughout the top 20. 

Tripwire and I flew 8:1 kill ratios for the month, Tomio got almost 300 kills! It's hardly a handicap outside of a few forum posts by new purchasers unused to the different way they now need to adapt to using their hardware.

 

When VR users post ace flight videos can you really say it's crippling their performance?

 

 

 

[SharpeXB]

21 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

 

That's your opinion, but it's not reflected in player stats. CB last month featured a healthy mix of players I know are in VR and some that I think are in VR scattered throughout the top 20. 

Tripwire and I flew 8:1 kill ratios for the month, Tomio got almost 300 kills! It's hardly a handicap outside of a few forum posts by new purchasers unused to the different way they now need to adapt to using their hardware.

 

When VR users post ace flight videos can you really say it's crippling their performance?

Would those good players get the same or better results using monitors? It’s good to see that people can be competitive nonetheless. But VR has some basic disadvantages such as resolution and the need to move around physically. There are players on the top of leaderboards in racing sims who use gamepads but that doesn’t make those better than wheels. It just means those players are good regardless of hardware. 

 

[II/JG11_ATLAN_VR]

i am in vr since summer of 2017,

first rift cv1 with gtx10606gb

and since April 2019, pimax 5k+ and gtx1080ti11gb.

normally interested in pimax 8kx to improve clarity again, but dont want to invest in another gpu upgrade to a rtx2080ti

will never go back to monitor, because dont feel like flying  only as Looking a film,no Immersion!

regarding kills in vr, Advantage: estimating angle of attack in close dogfight,

disadvantage; checking six, because there is no exorxist 360grade trackir cheat and spotting contacts far away.

Edited November 24, 2019 by II/JG11ATLAN

[Talon_]

4 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Would those good players get the same or better results using monitors?

 

I'm one of those good players and my performance is better than ever. I started out on a single monitor, moved through triple screens with head tracking and now I'm on my 2nd generation VR set. I consistently out-spot all my wingmen, who in about 50:50 ratio use monitors or VR devices.