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The Tempest Shrine (tempest discussion)

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Let us discuss!

The 3d cockpit screenies looked verrry nice.. :)

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Posted (edited)

56 squadron (150 Octane fuel anti-diver rostered unit) Tempest V operations over the European continent.  I see they destroyed a staff car and FW 190's.

Last 2 missions from base on the continent at Grimbergen.  Note that all activity recorded on this sheet covers to the end of September 1944, starting in England and then moving to Europe.

 

Also, check out Tempest V shooting down a Me 262 in October 1944.  Details at the bottom of the page. 

 

18to30Sept1944.jpg

12 Oct 1944 Robert Cole of No. 3 Squadron RAF, flying a Tempest V fighter, shot down a Me 262 jet fighter which was escorting bombers of German Kampfgeschwader 51. This was the first victory of a jet aircraft by a Tempest fighter. The German pilot, Unteroffizier Edmond Delatowski, bailed out and survived.

 

https://ww2db.com/aircraft_spec.php?aircraft_model_id=53

 

Some interesting Tempest V combat reports at the link below.  Including from Normandy 8th June 1944 and on into September, October, December, January, February, March and  April.

 

http://www.hawkertempest.se/index.php/piloter/combat-reports

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

Edited by 56RAF_Talisman
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What you think we're looking at for SP missions? Like a FW type multirole bird? 

For that matter since all the allied aircraft we're getting heavily did other work especially as its end of war I guess its more of a moot point.

I have really high hopes for the tempest and it has some interesting little gimmicks besides being a really cool plane like projecting the gunsight on the windscreen..

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15 minutes ago, Sublime said:

What you think we're looking at for SP missions? Like a FW type multirole bird? 

For that matter since all the allied aircraft we're getting heavily did other work especially as its end of war I guess its more of a moot point.

I have really high hopes for the tempest and it has some interesting little gimmicks besides being a really cool plane like projecting the gunsight on the windscreen..

 

The Tempest squadrons were almost universally tasked with the role of "TacR" or tactical reconnaissance. This was a kind of free hunt scenario where aircraft would be given a set area to patrol and fairly wide authority to engage targets of opportunity both in the air and on the ground. There were some defensive missions to protect bridges and friendly troops and then there were scenarios like the "rat catchers" which involved having a Tempest sitting hot and ready to scramble as soon as a call came in that a Me262 had hit a friendly airbase. The Tempest would then scramble and try and intercept the 262 around the time that it was slowing down for landing.

 

Tempests were rarely fitted for direct ground attack although bombs were fitted later on largely due to the diminishing Luftwaffe presence. While the Luftwaffe was still putting up serious defenses, however, the Tempests were often clashing with FW190A and D-9s, Bf109s and running into some more exotic stuff like the Me 262 and Ar234.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

Tempests were rarely fitted for direct ground attack although bombs were fitted later on largely due to the diminishing Luftwaffe presence.

 

Yes, it was very, very late in the conflict that one(?) squadron flew sorties with bombs - May 1945. As it was, those 4 cannons were plenty good enough for ground strafing. 

Edited by LukeFF

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1 minute ago, LukeFF said:

 

Yes, it was very, very late in the conflict that one(?) squadron flew sorties with bombs - May 1945. 

 

Yeah that's probably right. I don't remember off the top of my head.

 

The Tempest was certified for bombs and rockets (including zero length) but it was too valuable as a medium altitude tactical fighter and there were plenty of Typhoon squadrons around to drop bombs and rockets.

 

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Those actually sound like great missions to fly especially for a game if you think about it. I always relish the 'free hunt' missions.  

More so with how well some people can craft scripted campaigns.  Lots of fun to be had trolling around with the cannons and rockets.

i wonder if since theyre looking at visual rendering changes if this will change the "bubble" in SP.  Thatd be awesome if they found a way to incorporate even a minor amount of random traffic into the game on roads/train tracks in career mode.

Of course if not its only career mode and I can live with it :)

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10 minutes ago, Sublime said:

Those actually sound like great missions to fly especially for a game if you think about it. I always relish the 'free hunt' missions.  

More so with how well some people can craft scripted campaigns.  Lots of fun to be had trolling around with the cannons and rockets.

i wonder if since theyre looking at visual rendering changes if this will change the "bubble" in SP.  Thatd be awesome if they found a way to incorporate even a minor amount of random traffic into the game on roads/train tracks in career mode. 

Of course if not its only career mode and I can live with it :)

 

Absolutely. The tactical air forces, from a flight sim/gameplay perspective, offer the most amount of entertainment and fun. With the team now starting to build the career mode for Battle of Bodenplatte I'm sure that they will do their best to build in at least some of this type of mission profile into the mix. It wasn't just Tempests as you have the Thunderbolts and Mustangs flying the same kinds of operations. Spitfires too. Everything in the Allied tactical air force was thrown at air and ground targets alike.

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Oh I agree 100%. Itd be fantastic if they upgraded it as an engine wide thing as well because itd probably be retroactive then.  And then thered be lots of action back East too doing armed recce in Sturmoviks etc. Lots of possibilities even adding random air traffic too but I dont want to get this moved lol

So for squadrons in theater in this time frame is it Brits only?  Brits and Commonwealth?

Did the US ever operate any Tempests like they did some Spitfires or not by that point?

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2 hours ago, Sublime said:

Did the US ever operate any Tempests like they did some Spitfires or not by that point?

 

No

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Posted (edited)

What was the difference then?  Spit IXs were introducted right before the US had enough assets in Europe or something?

P.s. Im trying to start conversation... *cof cof*

Edited by Sublime

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14 minutes ago, Sublime said:

What was the difference then?  Spit IXs were introducted right before the US had enough assets in Europe or something?

P.s. Im trying to start conversation... *cof cof*

In the ETO some US fighter units operated Spitfire Vb's until there were enough P-47s to replace them, as well as a squadron of PR.XI until the end of the war. Also, iirc there was a TacR squadron that flew MkV's before being replaced with the F-6 Mustang. There was also a joint RN/USN unit during the Normandy invasion which flew a mix of MkV Spitfires and MkIII Seafires doing gunnery spotting for the big warship guns.

In the MTO the US operated MkV, VIII and IX. IIRC they were replaced by P-51s in early/mid 1944.

The US never flew the Tempest.

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Hmm so my question then is why persist in using spits thru the end of the war?

Im not surprised the US did not at the end and can see why especially Vbs were given.  Less clear why say one unit used the IXs through the end.

Also for the sake of discussion... It seems Typhoons were more plentiful than Tempests but Tempests were the newer better air frame? Or were they both good for different roles?

What about Tempest aces?

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8 minutes ago, Sublime said:

Hmm so my question then is why persist in using spits thru the end of the war?

Im not surprised the US did not at the end and can see why especially Vbs were given.  Less clear why say one unit used the IXs through the end.

Also for the sake of discussion... It seems Typhoons were more plentiful than Tempests but Tempests were the newer better air frame? Or were they both good for different roles?

What about Tempest aces?

 

If you're familiar with the development history the two together make sense. This is going to get long :)

 

The Typhoon was the earlier iteration designed by Hawker to replace the Hurricane in the RAF and at the same time to be a slightly heavier fighter that emphasized speed and firepower over agility. The goal was bomber destruction and the first of the Typhoons were fitted with 12 .303 machine guns before a Mark IB version with four Hispano 20mm cannon were fitted.

 

The early Typhoon had significant issues. The Sabre engine was troublesome, mechanics were not experienced and sometimes not properly trained to deal with the engine, there were issues like carbon monoxide leaks into the cabin, and then there's the whole tail separation issue where during high speed dives the Typhoon's tail section could separate. There was also a big problem with the types high altitude performance and it became immediately apparent in 1941 that the Typhoon was fast down low but inadequate at higher altitudes.

 

So the Typhoon persisted purely in the fighter role because it was the ideal weapon to chase the Luftwaffe's 'tip and run' raiders during 1942 and 1943. Many a FW190 was overhauled by a Typhoon during these low level chases. Production continued.

 

Owing to all of these problems, Sydney Camm, Hawker's chief designer, set about refining the Typhoon. Ultimately they settled on a redesigned tail section with greater area, a redesigned wing with a thin, laminar profile (although the wing would never truly be laminar just as in the Mustang), and they tried a series of engines and cooling systems before ultimately settling on the most mature design which was the revised Sabre II with the chin mounted radiator as that would be quicker to get into combat.

 

The first Tempests were Typhoons yanked from the production line and modified for the new fighter. Some late model Typhoons also inherited the Tempests new tail section and its four bladed propeller.

 

TL;DR, Typhoons were produced for a considerable amount of time before production switched to the the Tempest and that meant that the RAF had a significant force of Typhoons that were good at low levels. Their speed, firepower, and satisfactory trials using bombs and rockets meant that they became one of the most powerful striking forces for the RAF's second tactical air force and they stayed in that role until the end of the war. The Tempest was used in the fighter role while the Typhoon was used in the attacker role - although the Typhoon continued to claim kills up to the end as it was still a competent fighter (though not in all attributes).

 

As for aces: Look up Beaumont, Fairbanks, Closterman

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Posted (edited)

As for aces,

typhoontempest-aces-of-world-war-2-chris

 

As for the airplane,

3310869.jpg

Edited by MiloMorai
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Thank you - exactly what this thread needed

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The Tempest was also the basis of one of, if not the best, piston engine fighters ever built, the Hawker Sea Fury.

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13 hours ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

Typhoons were produced for a considerable amount of time before production switched to the the Tempest and that meant that the RAF had a significant force of Typhoons that were good at low levels.

 

Typhoons were produced beside the Tempest right to the end of the war. There's a doco online where one of the Typhoon designers explains the reason why. Apparently, the Typhoons thick wing, while not great for high speed flight, was absolutely fantastic for lifting a heavy load of bombs or rockets off a short dirt airstrip, and just as importantly, landing with them if not used. This was the reason that it was the Typhoons squadrons which were rushed into France after D-Day. Typhoons could take off in marginal conditions and if unable to find targets, could return and use their ordnance another day. Tempests, P51's & P47's operating off grass couldn't safely carry full weapon loads and then had to jettison bombs & rockets that were always in short supply in Normandy if targets couldn't be found before RTB'ing. The Typhoons ability to operate safely on shorter improvised strips allowed the Allies to reserve captured airfields with proper runways for those aircraft that need them.

 

The battles in the west of 1944 & 45 would have been much bloodier and drawn out without the magnificent & under appreciated Typhoon.

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The Typhoon was the backbone of 2nd TAF air-ground operations until VE-day and it is really needed in this game as a collector plane.

 

British.jpg?fit=850,478&ssl=1

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Posted (edited)
On 6/29/2019 at 10:21 PM, Sublime said:

What you think we're looking at for SP missions? Like a FW type multirole bird? 

 

Anything that involved the use of the Tempest's 4x20mm cannon, as although the Tempest was tested and approved to carry bombs or rockets, it never did so operationally.

 

So air to air and some AAA suppression along with targets of opportunity like trains & convoys.

 

The Tempest also excelled at V1 flying bomb interception, as it was fast enough to catch them in horizontal flight, unlike most other piston-engined aircraft of that time.

 

Dedicated ground attack stuff was left to the Typhoon and other fighter bombers available in number.

 

So +1 @sevenless for the Typhoon as a collector plane and I sincerely hope they don't put bombs or rockets on the Tempest as it absolutely never used them operationally.

Edited by Pict
Spelling, tweaking etc.

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As much as Id love that lets be real.. We all know theyre loading the Tempests with ordinance

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24 minutes ago, Sublime said:

We all know theyre loading the Tempests with ordinance

Bet you 20p they don't.

 

I think we'll get gunsight mods and optional drop tanks with the Tempests, and nothing else.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Diggun said:

Bet you 20p they don't.

 

I think we'll get gunsight mods and optional drop tanks with the Tempests, and nothing else.

 

 

 

Agree. They know that Spitfire XIV and Typhoon would sell like sliced bread. I´m sure they don´t miss this additional sales opportunity.

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, Diggun said:

Bet you 20p they don't.

 

I think we'll get gunsight mods and optional drop tanks with the Tempests, and nothing else.

 

My guess is that droptanks won't be there when the Tempest comes out, but will be added some time after. They definitely mentioned them and slightly more complex fuel mgmt too. I wonder if that will come before the official BoBP launch or after.

Edited by Jade_Monkey

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5 hours ago, Pict said:

 

So +1 @sevenless for the Typhoon as a collector plane and I sincerely hope they don't put bombs or rockets on the Tempest as it absolutely never used them operationally

 

Tempests used bombs operationally

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

 

Tempests used bombs operationally

 

News to me. Where & when?

 

And above all, why? After going to such lengths to develop special fuel drop tanks that minimized any loss of speed when dropped, why would they blow it all away by arming them with bombs, when virtually every other fighter could do that job?

Edited by Pict
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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Pict said:

 

News to me. Where & when?

 

No. 33 Sqn RAF, May 1945

 

 

Screenshot_20190701-131602.png

 

20 minutes ago, Pict said:

And above all, why? After going to such lengths to develop special fuel drop tanks that minimized any loss of speed when dropped, why would they blow it all away by arming them with bombs, when virtually every other fighter could do that job?

 

Why not? The Luftwaffe had basically given up weeks before the ground armies, so if you have planes, bombs and no opposition in the air why not drop everything you have with impunity?

 

Let's not forget that Spitfire IXs (an airframe built as an interceptor) were pressed into service as ground attackers during the operations of 2TAF over Europe. You could ask the same question - why go to all the trouble of developing an aircraft like the Spit with a 5,000ft/min climbrate if you're just gonna use it to drop bombs?

Edited by Talon_
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12 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

No. 33 Sqn RAF, May 1945

 

Got an original RAF combat report to go with the funky internet book?

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3 minutes ago, Pict said:

 

Got an original RAF combat report to go with the funky internet book?

 

Oh please.

 

4th May 1945 BOMB & STRAFE

 

 

Screenshot_20190701-133318.png

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2 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

Oh please.

 

 

Ok, please then.

 

I'm still waiting...

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1 minute ago, Pict said:

 

Ok, please then.

 

I'm still waiting...

 

It's in the post you just quoted.

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Here is an excerpt from 2nd Tactical Air Force, Volume 3, page 536:

 

Quote

The only Tempest unit to employ external stores, other than 45-gallon tanks, was 33 Squadron which, after a few days of practice, carried out two dive-bombing operations on 3 and 4 May 1945. 500 lb bombs were dropped on railway yards at Varel and buildings at Ardorf.

 

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

 

It's in the post you just quoted.

 

Have you got a legible and authenticated version

 

2 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

Here is an excerpt from 2nd Tactical Air Force, Volume 3, page 536:

 

 

 

I have that book, I'll have a look later.

 

And even if that's the case, it hardly represents "operational" as a fighter bomber does it? When youi take into account the number of sorties the Tempest made and the dates :) 

Edited by Pict

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6 minutes ago, Pict said:

 

Have you got a legible and authenticated version

 

 

I have that book, I'll have a look later.

 

And even if that's the case, it hardly represents "operational" as a fighter bomber does it? When youi take into account the number of sorties the Tempest made and the dates :) 

 

Depends on how finely you want to split that hair.

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6 minutes ago, Pict said:

And even if that's the case, it hardly represents "operational" as a fighter bomber does it? When youi take into account the number of sorties the Tempest made and the dates :) 

 

It's very easy to define "operationally" especially when you're looking at an Operational Records Book. Clue being in the title really.

 

Maybe Germany, upon learning that the terrifying Tempest could drop bombs on 3rd and 4th of May, were inspired to surrender out of fear at this new wunderwaffe? That claim has about as much veracity as suggesting that the Tempest never used bombs operationally 😂

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

Depends on how finely you want to split that hair.

 

I would split it this way...

 

On any day in May 1945 the war in Europe was over bar the shouting...and the Tempests contribution to getting it there was far more significant that what's in those mission reports.

 

That said I wouldn't be happy to see a historical Tempest represented in IL2 with a bomb or rocket load out option.

Edited by Pict
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1 hour ago, sevenless said:

 

Agree. They know that Spitfire XIV and Typhoon would sell like sliced bread. I´m sure they don´t miss this additional sales opportunity.

 

Somehow I think we'll see both of those!

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13 minutes ago, Pict said:

 

 Have you got a legible and authenticated version

 

The watermark of the National Archives not enough for you?

 

1 minute ago, Pict said:

That said I wouldn't be happy to see a historical Tempest represented in IL2 with a bomb or rocked load out option.

 

You do know the Spit IX has rockets because they were used by a single squadron for one day, right? Did you know the Bf109K-4 has an engine modification that never saw service, and that the Fw190D has a gunsight that was installed on 27 airframes in total?

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1 minute ago, Pict said:

That said I wouldn't be happy to see a historical Tempest represented in IL2 with a bomb or rocked load out option

 

It was cleared for all the standard bombs and rockets the RAF was using at the time. Why wouldn't you want the option to be added? Less features = more value?? How does that work. 

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