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The Tempest Shrine (tempest discussion)

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1 minute ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

Somehow I think we'll see both of those!

 

I keep my fingers crossed for that 🙂

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Tell me again what the cut-off date is for  BOBp is.

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8 minutes ago, MiloMorai said:

Tell me again what the cut-off date is for  BOBp is.

 

April 1st for campaign missions but the Tempest was certified to carry ordnance for it's entire term.

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In a fight between absolute realism and plausible gameplay I will generally go with the latter.  That's why I have Ju87Ds over Moscow and a FW190 unit at Stalingrad.  Shame not to use the planes that are available, even if they are not a perfectly accurate fit.

 

With that in mind I am going to use the Tempest in both Typhoon and Tempest roles: ground attack with ordnance as well as air to air.  

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28 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

With that in mind I am going to use the Tempest in both Typhoon and Tempest roles: ground attack with ordnance as well as air to air.   

 

Same here - especially with no Typhoon to play with.

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3 hours ago, MiloMorai said:

Tell me again what the cut-off date is for  BOBp is.

 

Are you considering getting in to flight sims?

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As the cut off date for BOBp is the end of March... well no need to consider stuff after that date.

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I'm sure the work in progress shots of the Tempest from DD #219 showed off the Tempest with bomb racks.

That or possibly for jettisonable drop tanks. If we are getting bombs then we can at least play Typhoon and attack trains and armoured convoys.

 

Temp_3.thumb.jpg.2dde7a720ea757106aa8e266ba917c92.jpgTemp_2.thumb.jpg.023c83e3684d0f126550b19f22073015.jpg

 

Either way, she'll be awesome as a rat catcher spoiling the fun for 262 pilots. :biggrin:

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5 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

In a fight between absolute realism and plausible gameplay I will generally go with the latter.  That's why I have Ju87Ds over Moscow and a FW190 unit at Stalingrad.  Shame not to use the planes that are available, even if they are not a perfectly accurate fit.

 

With that in mind I am going to use the Tempest in both Typhoon and Tempest roles: ground attack with ordnance as well as air to air.  

 

I absolutely agree. There are limits of course but I think the weapons that the Tempest V was certified to use are fair game, especially with no Typhoon currently present, as modifications that can potentially be fitted to the aircraft. It adds gameplay flexibility, it can make for interesting multiplayer or single player options, and for the people who don't feel that they are appropriate they can be turned off.

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1 hour ago, Tyggz said:

That or possibly for jettisonable drop tanks

Those are indeed bomb racks. The drop tanks usually didn't use bomb racks: they actually go pretty much where the rack would be, and contain their own attachment and (quite clever) release mechanism. (I say usually, because some drop tanks, of conventional form, were sometimes used. Those used the bomb racks, and could be dropped like bombs)

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Quinte said:

Those are indeed bomb racks. The drop tanks usually didn't use bomb racks:

Indeed.

1107-37.jpg

post-3547-1209595531.jpg

28-4.jpg

They use maybe the same attachment point on the spars, but a different mounting along with an aerodynamically improved fairing. It was efficient enough to leave drop tanks on during a full sortie, unless bounced by fighters. Note that the fairings are transparent.

Edited by ZachariasX
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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Tyggz said:

she'll be awesome as a rat catcher spoiling the fun for 262 pilots. :biggrin:

What? Ther isnt a plane on BOBP list that will be able to catch an experienced pilot in Me262. Thats the problem with this planeset.

Edited by =VARP=Tvrdi
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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, =VARP=Tvrdi said:

What? Ther isnt a plane on BOBP list that will be able to catch an experienced pilot in Me262. Thats the problem with this planeset.

No. There is no problrm with the plane set. It is as it was. "Rat code" was the strategy to directly proceed to Rheine and shoot them up there, where they had to come in for landng. It was never about chasing the Me262. You can do rat code with any aircraft. The Tempest was used for rat code as it was the main low level intruder for 2TAF with the range to reach the Me262 bases in time.

 

It worked like this: The Tempests that were on standby would get the radio call "scrable, rat" upon RDF detection of a jet and they would take off ASAP and dash to Rheine waiting for their prey. Rheine was the main base from where the Me262 armed recce flights operated at the time. It was an operation we refer to as vulching. Fairbanks scored a good number of victories this way.

 

The strategy was not used for very long. The Germans in turn massively increast the number of Flak guns as well as put them along the landing approach of the jets.

 

It's not that 2TAF only referred to the 262 as "rat". It was the rat code that was one strategy to counter them.

Edited by ZachariasX
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33 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

No. There is no problrm with the plane set. It is as it was

That is the problem. There was not as many 262 , dora Tempest as you like in the battlefield. 

If everyone choose to fly high and fast in a 262 there is nothing like it was. 

Many mp players give a damn in objectives. Objectives that simulate orders in real life. 

It indeed can be a problem in such degree that we will see only 262 and no opponents. 

Ofcourse I overthink it, because many choose otherwise. But seeing the effectiveness of 262 guns it is a consern about the ganeplay  

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7 minutes ago, LuseKofte said:

That is the problem. There was not as many 262 , dora Tempest as you like in the battlefield. 

If everyone choose to fly high and fast in a 262 there is nothing like it was. 

Many mp players give a damn in objectives. Objectives that simulate orders in real life. 

It indeed can be a problem in such degree that we will see only 262 and no opponents. 

Ofcourse I overthink it, because many choose otherwise. But seeing the effectiveness of 262 guns it is a consern about the ganeplay  

 

I don't see it as an issue; as it is right now in MP, numbers of these advanced fighters are often limited to single digits, rarely more than 3. Having the Tempest (and Mustang too, now that I think about it) around will allow more wiggle room with the number of advanced German props but I'd imagine the number of jets available will remain the same.

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Right now, spotting range is the only real issue we have now. If you take the 262 as you are supposed to, you should be seen halfway across the map due to contrails, especially since we have a „winter map“ for BoBp. You can engage high flying targets at leisure and you can exfil. The problem is, you in all cases have to run away to a destination known to the enemy. Should you intend (in reality they had to, in the game... you know) to prepare for landing, no Flak will save you when you have enemies covering your field. Flak will help you in the final part of the flight and will make you less of a victim there, but the entire part of the flight where you are traveling slower than 780 km/h will put you in danger. It is by no means unfair to attack the jets there.

 

Not the Me262 makes the game lopsided, it is spotting as well as fairy dust powered prop planes that might even enjoy numerical superiority. But the katter can be addressed by good mission design.

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Posted (edited)

I realise this is probably a slightly different flavour of Hispano, but I'm just going to leave this here... 

 

 

Edited by Diggun

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On 7/1/2019 at 4:05 PM, PatrickAWlson said:

In a fight between absolute realism and plausible gameplay I will generally go with the latter.

 

Seeing as the Typhoon won't be here on launch, most likely, the Tempest might as well fill in until its older sibling turns up

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1 hour ago, Diggun said:

I realise this is probably a slightly different flavour of Hispano, but I'm just going to leave this here... 

 

 



I believe, and I may be wrong, this is actually a mount from a Mosquito 

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5 minutes ago, 357th_Dog said:

I believe, and I may be wrong, this is actually a mount from a Mosquito

Gives me the screaming wilies, whatever it is, I don't mind telling you. I mean, just imagine having four of the bally things pointed at you. No thank you, Matron. Not today. 

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11 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

No. There is no problrm with the plane set. It is as it was. "Rat code" was the strategy to directly proceed to Rheine and shoot them up there, where they had to come in for landng. It was never about chasing the Me262. You can do rat code with any aircraft. The Tempest was used for rat code as it was the main low level intruder for 2TAF with the range to reach the Me262 bases in time.

 

It worked like this: The Tempests that were on standby would get the radio call "scrable, rat" upon RDF detection of a jet and they would take off ASAP and dash to Rheine waiting for their pray. Rheine was the main base from where the Me262 armed recce flights operated at the time. It was an operation we refer to as vulching. Fairbanks scored a good number of victories this way.

 

The strategy was not used for very long. The Germans in turn massively increast the number of Flak guns as well as put them along the landing approach of the jets.

 

It's not that 2TAF only referred to the 262 as "rat". It was the rat code that was one strategy to counter them.

The thing is. You cant mimic the real life situation. Like it was. Me262 wont be used in game like in RL, the situation, strategy and numbers wont reflect RL situation. Luse already explained.

Already we have 2:1 ratio (most of the time) in favour of blue on bodenplate maps. It was other way around.

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5 minutes ago, =VARP=Tvrdi said:

The thing is. You cant mimic the real life situation. Like it was. Me262 wont be used in game like in RL, the situation, strategy and numbers wont reflect RL situation. Luse already explained.

Already we have 2:1 ratio (most of the time) in favour of blue on bodenplate maps. It was other way around.

 

Combat Box is 24/7 Bodenplatte and is usually very close to balanced.

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How good turner Tempest/typhoon was? Like P47 or slightly better like P51?

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32 minutes ago, Voidhunger said:

How good turner Tempest/typhoon was? Like P47 or slightly better like P51?

 

The two supposedly had more or less identical turning circles. Whilst I can't say anything for the P-47, the Tempest has a similar, if slightly worse turning circle compared to the P-51 (specifically the Mustang F Mk III/P-51B): AFDU Trials of early Tempest

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1 hour ago, Voidhunger said:

How good turner Tempest/typhoon was? Like P47 or slightly better like P51?

 

Better than 190, worse than 109

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3 hours ago, Voidhunger said:

How good turner Tempest/typhoon was? Like P47 or slightly better like P51?

 

The answer is that it's complicated. At higher speeds the Tempest reportedly (and as modeled in the IL-2: 1946) turned quite well in short turns. However, it also bled a lot of speed doing those maneuvers and at lower speeds the Tempest doesn't turn nearly as tightly. It should feel a little more agile than the P-47 and maybe more like the Mustang.

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Ive read somewhere that it turned roughyl similar to a Mustang. Also heard somewhere recently that after trials between the RAF and USAAF over south england somewhere that it was considered to be generally similar  to the P-47 performance wise (although maybe Im confusing this with the Typhoon?). It will depend on how it ends up modeled in IL-2 I guess, and whether the flaps do alot or not so much.

 

Either way Im very interested to see how this one pans out. Was never a huge fan of the spitfire but I could see myself becoming friends with this one 😄

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1 hour ago, 9./JG27DefaultFace said:

generally similar  to the P-47 performance wise

 

The Tempest is a completely different animal to the P-47. Almost 400 miles an hour on the deck! Flying characteristics were similar to the Mustang.

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Posted (edited)

Maybe I worded that a bit poorly. From just looking at the aircraft generally, numbers wise and how its designed, I agree that similarity to the mustang seems more plausible. Im sure it was a very capable aircraft.

 

I think the comparison the P-47 may have been more along the lines of what the best way to use it is... 

 

From wikipedia "During 1944, several veteran USAAF pilots flew the Tempest in mock combat exercises held over the south of England; the consensus from these operations was that it was roughly akin to the American Republic P-47 Thunderbolt."

Edited by 9./JG27DefaultFace

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On 7/1/2019 at 10:42 PM, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

I absolutely agree. There are limits of course but I think the weapons that the Tempest V was certified to use are fair game, especially with no Typhoon currently present, as modifications that can potentially be fitted to the aircraft. It adds gameplay flexibility, it can make for interesting multiplayer or single player options, and for the people who don't feel that they are appropriate they can be turned off.

 

So would this logic apply to the bombs we don't have on the Spitfire VB released with the Kuban? The Spitfire VB was not only certified to carry bombs, but actually used them on a vast number of missions operationally, long before the end of the war. They just didn't use them in the Kuban, or have the bomb racks fitted...just like the Tempest in the BOBP time frame. That's why we don't have clipped wings for the Spitfire VB either, or Volkes filters etc.,etc. I'm sure this would apply to other aircraft and Pandora's box would be wide open or at least it should be if the Tempest gets bombs & rockets.

 

The other side of the coin when you are prepared to accept a Tempoon as a substitute for the Typhoon is that the Typhoon you are hoping for is less likely to materialize. This already played out in the original IL2 series.

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On 7/2/2019 at 9:56 AM, ZachariasX said:

No. There is no problrm with the plane set. It is as it was. "Rat code" was the strategy to directly proceed to Rheine and shoot them up there, where they had to come in for landng. It was never about chasing the Me262. You can do rat code with any aircraft. The Tempest was used for rat code as it was the main low level intruder for 2TAF with the range to reach the Me262 bases in time.

 

It worked like this: The Tempests that were on standby would get the radio call "scrable, rat" upon RDF detection of a jet and they would take off ASAP and dash to Rheine waiting for their prey. Rheine was the main base from where the Me262 armed recce flights operated at the time. It was an operation we refer to as vulching. Fairbanks scored a good number of victories this way.

 

The strategy was not used for very long. The Germans in turn massively increast the number of Flak guns as well as put them along the landing approach of the jets.

 

It's not that 2TAF only referred to the 262 as "rat". It was the rat code that was one strategy to counter them.

There is an issue with the plane set as it is/planned.  That issue is that the Axis has, to all intense and purposes, a much fuller representation of its aviation capability than the allies.

I say this because the Allied capabilities are clearly completely under represented due to the fact that their strategic bomber force is not included.  A huge part of the Allied war effort was expended on bomber forces, which are not represented in this simulation.  The Allied nations spread their manufacturing resources and overall war effort to include large multi-engine bomber forces in a way that the Axis did not.  This simulation focuses on smaller aircraft types and fighters, which discounts a major part of Allied airpower capability.  I am not criticising the developers for this, but I do think that this fact needs to be remembered in our discussions, because without the Allied bomber force being represented the air war is not historically simulated and favours the Axis forces in this regard.  This is why I think it is important the we get representation of the Allied fuel technology, such as 150 Octane and our better fighters, including the Spitfire XIV for example.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

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The lack of the heavy bomber force isn't the worst issue in this part of the game. I'm much more interested in knowing how the devs will acount for the serious lack of training hours/ experience the LW had going for it at the time.. 

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1 minute ago, Sharpe43 said:

The lack of the heavy bomber force isn't the worst issue in this part of the game. I'm much more interested in knowing how the devs will acount for the serious lack of training hours/ experience the LW had going for it at the time.. 

 

Well at least in Singleplayer I expect to be flying with my allied plane against 80% rookies. Luftflotte 3 was destroyed for all intents and purposes after Normandy in 8/44. What was left, was of dubious quality and formed Luftwaffenkommando West, and what was left after Bodenplatte in early 1945 wasn´t really much of a threat anymore and were 98% rookies, better cannonfodder.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Pict said:

I'm sure this would apply to other aircraft and Pandora's box would be wide open or at least it should be if the Tempest gets bombs & rockets.

 

On 7/1/2019 at 2:02 PM, Talon_ said:

You do know the Spit IX has rockets because they were used by a single squadron for one day, right? Did you know the Bf109K-4 has an engine modification that never saw service, and that the Fw190D has a gunsight that was installed on 27 airframes in total?

 

We've been playing Pandora's BoX since the Macchi arrived with prototype gunpods.

Edited by Talon_

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

 

 

 

Yeah yeah yeah...

 

but did all that happen within the BOBP time frame?

 

btw 2TAF were using 150 octane gas in summer 1944 chasing doodlebugs :)

Edited by Pict

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Pict said:

 

  but did all that happen within the BOBP time frame?

 

Bf109K-4 DC engine mod as available ingame did not happen until after the BoBp timeframe. Mc202 gunpods as available ingame were prototype only and never used operationally.

7 minutes ago, Pict said:

btw 2TAF were using 150 octane gas in summer 1944 chasing doodlebugs 

 

Trust me, there are very few users on this forum that know more about 150 octane use in the RAF than me. Even my profile pic is about 150 octane use.

Edited by Talon_
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27 minutes ago, 56RAF_Talisman said:

There is an issue with the plane set as it is/planned.  That issue is that the Axis has, to all intense and purposes, a much fuller representation of its aviation capability than the allies.

The germans had far less plane types in numbers. You had to mend that by giving the Germans three types and the Allies seven. Then again, that wouldn't be so cool.

 

31 minutes ago, 56RAF_Talisman said:

This is why I think it is important the we get representation of the Allied fuel technology, such as 150 Octane and our better fighters, including the Spitfire XIV for example.

That is the thing that is not ok. Indeed. Right now, Axis side has the theoretical best of what they had in the guise of a reliable and dependable aircraft, by no means reflecting what the German aviation industry spat out at the time. On the other hand, we have the Allies neutered to match TBO specs that the engines never ever had due to their heavy use. Think of that, a Merlin 66 gives you a TBO of 500 hours when you limit it to +8 lbs. boost for take off (this is one minute per flight!), rest +6 lbs. (even for a go-around). The Merlin is a remarkably reliable WW2 engine. Any restored DB will not even close be up to that TBO even at significantly reduced power outputs (as they are today for show flying).

 

The plane set as such is fine. But you can't give one side the best of every item while caping the other side to the minima.

 

The Spit XIV would indeed be nice. But it would be "Jack of all trades and master of all", especially if you give it a (well documented) fairy dust raing of +25 lbs, in a way the 109K is put on steroids. Everyone would just take that one. The Tempest or the Mk.IX are IMHO better ends of a spectrum. So far, almost all planes have their clear limits, even the 109K or the D9. The Spit XiV would override a lot of strategies, especially un fall '44 scenarios.

 

As collector item, the Spit XIV is perfect.

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35 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

Trust me, there are very few users on this forum that know more about 150 octane use in the RAF than me.

 

Are you drinking it yourself or just pouring it on your keyboard? ;)

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1 hour ago, Pict said:

 

So would this logic apply to the bombs we don't have on the Spitfire VB released with the Kuban? The Spitfire VB was not only certified to carry bombs, but actually used them on a vast number of missions operationally, long before the end of the war. They just didn't use them in the Kuban, or have the bomb racks fitted...just like the Tempest in the BOBP time frame. That's why we don't have clipped wings for the Spitfire VB either, or Volkes filters etc.,etc. I'm sure this would apply to other aircraft and Pandora's box would be wide open or at least it should be if the Tempest gets bombs & rockets.

 

The other side of the coin when you are prepared to accept a Tempoon as a substitute for the Typhoon is that the Typhoon you are hoping for is less likely to materialize. This already played out in the original IL2 series.

 

I'd love to see the Spitfire Vb get the fuller treatment at some point. I am prepared to accept the Tempest performing Typhoon duties. I'm also still holding out hope for a Typhoon :)

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