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Jorge_S

How do you train for energy fighting?

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as per the title, how do you train for energy fighting? I have seen the videos, but it is really hard to hit any moving target once you are diving at high speed

 

any advice on quick mission settings? maybe 1,000 altitude difference? what would be a best place to use as victim? I was thinking a big, fat bomber to start

 

 

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Jorge_S said:

as per the title, how do you train for energy fighting? I have seen the videos, but it is really hard to hit any moving target once you are diving at high speed

 

any advice on quick mission settings? maybe 1,000 altitude difference? what would be a best place to use as victim? I was thinking a big, fat bomber to start

 

 

try with 1500m advantage. Then you can go higher as you should when energy fighting, and the last part would be when you are at lower than your opponent or at the same altitude.

Edited by -[HRAF]BubiHUN

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would you start against a bomber?

with AI you can't "surprise" the enemy, and it is hard to hit, always changing direction

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11 minutes ago, Jorge_S said:

would you start against a bomber?

with AI you can't "surprise" the enemy, and it is hard to hit, always changing direction

even training against bombers would be a good start.

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Posted (edited)

it was!

Mig-3 vs He-111

2,000m height advantage

Kuban map over water so spotting was not that hard

 

lots of passes, lots of damage (giving and receiving)

and surprised how easy is to accidentally ram a bomber, certainly better to do it offline as you don't want to ram somebody in multiplayer

Edited by Jorge_S
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IMO there are two factors that are key to hitting your target in a high-speed approach:

1) Positioning your plane in order to start the attack from the position that is most likely to yield a good shooting opportunity.

2) The shooting itself: estimating target distance, deflection angle and speed, and applying the correct amount of lead.

 

Most pilots suck badly at 1).

 

Before joining an online session I warm up offline with following QMB settings: 8 bandit fighters, set to appear 2000 m below me, and set to have no ammo. I am the only one in my flight, but select a second flight of friendlies which have no ammo. That way I can fully focus on getting hits on targets without wasting time on flying tactics vs. stupid AIs. Overall, however, I encounter many situations that are very similar to what I see online: friendlies and bandits locked in dogfights and maneuvering fiercely. Equally important: no friendly is going to deprive me of a shooting opportunity by eliminating a target. After 20 minutes in that scenario I'we warmed up my maneuvering and shooting muscles and am ready for online action.

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Get the Kittyhawk (or the 109-E) - climb, fly to a hot zone, engage the enemy (2 or 3 merges should be enough) and then try to extend. If you didn't get shot-down then you had a proper energy management and awareness.

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Practice and then practice more.

 

As a variation on Papfly's method I would recommend during practice sessions allowing the enemy shoot back at you but turn invulnerability on. That way you can know when you're getting hit (and adjust your technique accordingly) without taking damage and having to restart the mission.

 

Also, while patience and discipline are key elements, bear in mind that once you engage an enemy you're on the clock. Online there's nothing that attracts attention quicker than tracers flying around the sky, so while you might be flying great and staying well outside your target's sights you must assume that others pilots have have spotted your engagement and are enroute and that your target has called for assistance.

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15 minutes ago, Valis said:

Also, while patience and discipline are key elements, bear in mind that once you engage an enemy you're on the clock. Online there's nothing that attracts attention quicker than tracers flying around the sky, so while you might be flying great and staying well outside your target's sights you must assume that others pilots have have spotted your engagement and are enroute and that your target has called for assistance.

 

The Mig3 and La-5/F (not sure about the FN) have armament load options which don't carry tracers. It could be useful.

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In QMB just have 2 flights of friendlies, your flight of just you and the 2nd flight however many you want... no enemies. Climb to perch above 2nd flight and attack. Yeah, seems dastardly but it's SP and who's to know. 🤐 It will be like a good surprise bounce (they won't go evasive like the enemy AI who are impossible to surprise) and you can practice your angle of dive, speed, lead, etc.

Once you have that down go for enemy flights.

Alternatively, make your own server in multiplayer and get a friend to act as dumb and dumber. You can set invulnerability on so dumber doesn't have to keep re-spawning.

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On 4/6/2019 at 3:43 AM, Jorge_S said:

as per the title, how do you train for energy fighting? I have seen the videos, but it is really hard to hit any moving target once you are diving at high speed

 

any advice on quick mission settings? maybe 1,000 altitude difference? what would be a best place to use as victim? I was thinking a big, fat bomber to start

 

 

 

What I can add to Papafly advice, is to use offline the targeting assist, so you have the circle where you need to aim, in that way no guesswork is involved.

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Thanks to all

 

only issue with targeting assist is that I would need to turn on object markers, and I need to train spotting more urgently than diving

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If I may add, for me was the perfect training addition of 109G6. It is incredibly heavy with weak engine. To successfuly employ this plane in combat, one must manage his energy well, because everything outaccelerates you, outclimbs you and out turns you. That plane has only advantage, and that is its E retention. Use it. When I switched back to my favourite 109, G2, I was untouchable. What is to learn from this? We should take heavy underpowered planes and get ready to have our asses handed to us on a silver plate. That way, we can appreciate the energy capabilities of more powerful planes.

Edited by CSAF-D3adCZE
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@CSAF-D3adCZE: I think there are worse planes around then the G-6, anyway your basic statement is totally right.

 

@Jorge_S: I switch the indicators/target-assist OFF when I don't have any enemy in sight, that way you can train spotting. Sorry, there is no easy chicken way here ;) .

 

The AI always spotting you is a major issue and a "simple"  random generator wether it spots you or not should be doable here for the devs.  One of my many Easter wishes :) .

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Try use Spad against Dr.1s in FC those old plans can teach you really well how to manage energy. Or better try FokerVII not F vs Camels.

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6 hours ago, CSAF-D3adCZE said:

If I may add, for me was the perfect training addition of 109G6. It is incredibly heavy with weak engine. To successfuly employ this plane in combat, one must manage his energy well, because everything outaccelerates you, outclimbs you and out turns you. That plane has only advantage, and that is its E retention. Use it. When I switched back to my favourite 109, G2, I was untouchable. What is to learn from this? We should take heavy underpowered planes and get ready to have our asses handed to us on a silver plate. That way, we can appreciate the energy capabilities of more powerful planes.

The Bf109G-6 outclimbs literally every other plane from its era in game except the La-5FN, which matches it and only at sea level. At higher alts the G-6's advantage grows . From the tech specs on the forum, climb rates at sea level:

P-47D - 12.1 m/s
P-40 - 12.5 m/s
Spit Mk.VB - 14.5 m/s
Yak-7B - 16.9 m/s
Yak-1B - 17 m/s
La-5 Ser. 8 - 18 m/s
La-5FN - 20 m/s
Bf-109G-6 - 20.1 m/s
Spitfire Mk. IX -21.5 m/s

In the G-6 you have a climb advantage of at least 3 m/s against your most common opponents. Unless you're facing Spit IX's you can easily beat or match anything the allies field against you in climb rate. The G-6 actually climbs better than the later G-14, which STILL leaves most of its competition in the dust, only beaten out by the FN and the Spit IX. 

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9 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

The Bf109G-6 outclimbs literally every other plane from its era in game except the La-5FN, which matches it and only at sea level. At higher alts the G-6's advantage grows . From the tech specs on the forum, climb rates at sea level:

P-47D - 12.1 m/s
P-40 - 12.5 m/s
Spit Mk.VB - 14.5 m/s
Yak-7B - 16.9 m/s
Yak-1B - 17 m/s
La-5 Ser. 8 - 18 m/s
La-5FN - 20 m/s
Bf-109G-6 - 20.1 m/s
Spitfire Mk. IX -21.5 m/s

In the G-6 you have a climb advantage of at least 3 m/s against your most common opponents. Unless you're facing Spit IX's you can easily beat or match anything the allies field against you in climb rate. The G-6 actually climbs better than the later G-14, which STILL leaves most of its competition in the dust, only beaten out by the FN and the Spit IX. 

 

When your used to play with 109F4s or G2s where when you make mistake you can just helecopter on strait up, slightly worst G6 is poor airplane then :) they dont even know how good they have it lol

 

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27 minutes ago, 77.CountZero said:

 

When your used to play with 109F4s or G2s where when you make mistake you can just helecopter on strait up, slightly worst G6 is poor airplane then :) they dont even know how good they have it lol

 

Yeah I got a guy in a G-14 last night with my Yak-7. I came in behind him and below. He was getting away from me at about 1km in a shallow climb, I don't think he knew I was there. There's no way in hell a Yak can catch a 109 like that. I decided to take a gamble and get his attention, so I fired some MG rounds over his head. Once he saw the tracers, he steepened his climb, while I leveled out to try and gain speed. He started doing steep turning climbs and dives to reverse on me, but I was able to stay out of his sights in the horizontal without losing too much speed, climbing shallow when I could and getting closer. Eventually I closed the gap so when he came back down from one of his dives I was basically on his tail. At that point it was basically an angles fight. Eventually I pulled enough lead to take some proper shots, then sheared his wing off.

Later in the same flight I found myself in a similar situation, again against a G-14. Climbing away from me in a shallow climb. I followed him for a bit, realized I'd never catch him, then turned for home at full bore. I thought he hadn't seen me, but he obviously had. He came back around,   and the first time I knew he was there was when he hit my cockpit with a cannon round and wounded my pilot. 

To get back to energy fighting, I think we have two examples here. The first fight sounds like a 'turn-fight' but its actually an energy fight, just with different approaches. The Yak-7 retains energy really well in turns and is an OK climber, while the G-14 is a better climber but loses more energy in turns. When we entered the fight we were roughly the same speed, with him somewhat faster than me and higher than me. He had higher energy. It was kinda stupid of me to enter the fight but I wanted to get into a dogfight lol.

He burned a lot of energy with the really steep climbs, he gained altitude but lost energy overall. He had to come back down to get his speed up. By only climbing shallow and keeping my speed up, I was able to gain total energy while he lost it. Eventually he was co-alt with me at roughly the same speed (i.e. the same energy state), at which point the Yak-7 can really shine with tight, energy conserving medium speed turns. 

In the second example, the 109 maintained his shallow, energy-gaining climb knowing I was too far away, then came back around once I gave up, screamed in behind me, and nailed me on the first pass. He had maneuvering room, speed, and energy and used it pretty ruthlessly. It wasn't a fight so much as a cold murder LOL. if the first guy had continued his shallow climb until I gave up, he could have done the same. I just got lucky the first time lol.

 

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One of the secret/key of energy fighting is the angle of attack. I suggest you to know really well what it is and what are the consequences of a high angle of attack (more drag, loosing energy, to be simple). 

 

On 109, we can stay that: 

Leading edge flaps in = small angle of attack, no energy loss. 

Leading edge flaps out = medium angle of attack, slight energy loss. 

Aerodynamic sounds before stalling = high angle of attack , high energy loss. 

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