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4 minutes ago, JG27_PapaFly said:

Im not keen on the 262. It was a troubled design. It was clearly the fastest and most heavily armed fighter, but it's aerodynamics and controls did not match it's speed. Although vulnerable, it was great at slashing through the P-51 cover and destroying strategic bombers. It wasn't a good fighter though.

Here are my expectations:

- limited high-speed maneuverability due to compressibility

- slow accelerator

- vulnerable

- delicate engines requiring very gradual throttle movements

- very visible in the dogfight arena due to its size and engine smoke

 

262 will probably not perform well as a fighter imo. Most players will use it as a fast bomber and zoom in and out of the target.

Some players will do well in it as a fighter but it will never be the top fighter in the sky.

 

Benefit of the 262 is that nobody will be able to catch you once you're up to speed, just make a pass and run away.

Edited by Legioneod
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262 will be beyond abyssmal as a fighter. It is fast, but that is everything it got. Other fighters hold every other card available. And since we do not have strategic bombers which are big, juicy target with inferior speed to any contemporare fighter, 4x mk108 will be almost useless. K4 is an example. Put same skilled pilots in spit mk IX and K4 and nobody will be able to land a hit on the enemy.

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With lack of heavies the me 262 is helpfull 90% for very fast jabo sorties....or disintegrate unaware allied fighters !!

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262 will do great on dogfight servers where there's no reason not to run away forever. When there are actual objectives to worry about dogfight performance suddenly becomes a lot more important

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The Me262 might not be great for a 1vs1, but with high speed and firepower, it's great in a many vs. many environment, provided proper hit and run tactics are used in a team effort. It's not that flying tight circles and jinking the stick is the only way to shoot down another fighter.

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The Schwalbe won't uber out anything. It's a plane with a specific role that doesn't exist in game, while its many drawbacks mostly do. Yes people will go for new planes for a while, and then it will be just another plane in the lineup. I'm wagering it won't even attract the typical aces. It -will- however be something very unique, beautiful and interesting, and so I am excited.

 

I'm typically much more concerned with a chance to fly and experience fascinating old airplanes than I am to win dogfights. A plane uber enough to give me a consistently positive K:D hasn't been built anyway and so I tend to gravitate to, and be most pleased with, odder aircraft than the top performers. Give me Fw189's over Yak 9's any day. Give me He219, Swordfishes, the Grumman J2F Duck, the Greif and Short Sunderland. Certainly such fascinating pieces of technology as the Me262 and Arado!

 

Can't we be happy there's something in the German lineup that isn't another 109? :P

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2/3 -if not more- of the kills for many online aces I know, are solely sneak up from 6 below and fire away.

The major reason for these attacks to fail are either a) it taking too much time for you to catch up and the enemy realizes you are there and he breaks or b)  he survives the pass due to insufficient hits and breaks away.

Both sources of failure are minimized in the 262. I think everyone who thinks it will do bad as a fighter hasn’t grasped the basic idea of bnz, and why it was the most popular tactic. They will probably be in for a surprise when the 262 is flown by a competent pilot.

on servers with icons or on pure dogfight servers like berloga, I agree, it will do bad...

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2 minutes ago, =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn said:

2/3 -if not more- of the kills for many online aces I know, are solely sneak up from 6 below and fire away.

The major reason for these attacks to fail are either a) it taking too much time for you to catch up and the enemy realizes you are there and he breaks or b)  he survives the pass due to insufficient hits and breaks away.

Both sources of failure are minimized in the 262. I think everyone who thinks it will do bad as a fighter hasn’t grasped the basic idea of bnz, and why it was the most popular tactic. They will probably be in for a surprise when the 262 is flown by a competent pilot.

on servers with icons or on pure dogfight servers like berloga, I agree, it will do bad...

So I expect to do well in a Me262. I'm not a good pilot as I'm still learning about planes, flight and manly how to combat but I have my success with BnZ "style".
I'm hyped with BoB (best Great Battles "dlc" to me) ❤️

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Very interesting aircraft and BoBp would be poorer without it, but personally I wish we first had an early-release map over which to fly.

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I believe the 262 will be on ground attack mostly without 4 engined bombers enviroment.

 

Considering what we have now, the Arado 234 would be better for this jet age introduction.

 

Lets wait and see what Devs will do later.

Edited by 6./ZG26_Gielow

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What we will be missing, is that the 262 rather often, a long with the rest of the Luftwaffe fighters, used ordinary roads as runways, because most airfields had been flatten towards the end of the war. 

And since we will not have the heavy bombers to take out these airfields and it's not even possible to wreck the runways, the airfields will be still be used, historical wrong. 

I imagine it is impossible to model, that the roads should work as runways. 

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Please name Me262 squads that operated from ordinary roads, or name locations where Me262 operated from ordinary roads. I know of none.

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On 2/6/2019 at 5:48 PM, I./ZG1_Dutchvdm said:

I’m looking forward to the a2 model

for some fast Jabo action.

 

Grt M

 

 

Yeah, makes me wonder how much of performance loss will the 262 suffer with two 250 kg bombs.

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Im also curious how much will be Jumos vulnerable to enemy fire.

One single bullet and loss of power or fire?

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Well, I foresee no problems for the Pe-2 gunner to track a 262 going past on a perpendicular course at 860km/h while his bomber's flying inverted through a snowstorm. ;) 

Edited by Luftschiff
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12 hours ago, Ehret said:

 

Well... the 262 wasn't that "uber" as a general purpose fighter - flight endurance was short, acceleration under 450km/h was slow, engines were very fragile and much higher velocities induced even higher G-forces. The latter is overlooked phenomena but G loads increase V*V in turns. To match the same turn of the 600km/h prop in 262 going 900km/h you will need to pull 2.25x more G; so you might slow down but then you could get out-accelerated and lose continuous turn fight. BnZ isn't going to be that easy, either. Resetting an attack will take longer time and distance thus the target (if aware) will have some time to accelerate and prepare for next evasion maneuver.

 

IRL the major point of the 262 was the ability to be able to ignore escort fighters and operate with (almost) impunity due to speed.

 

6 hours ago, sevenless said:

 

Correct. It was a bomber interceptor (A1) and in its A2 variation a bomber. Unless its air targets were flying straight and level it was very hard to hit anything with its cannons. Even Aces like Krupinsky (197 kills) or Galland (104 kills) had problems with its high closing speed. Günther Lützow (110 kills) wasn´t able to adapt at all and Barkhorn (302 kills) didn´t like it very much also. 

 

You need to fly it to its strenght, attack bomber formations (A1) or use it as a quick bomber (A2). You won´t have any fun using it in a pure fighter role, because it wasn´t designed for that purpose.

 

Exactly. I never understood why plenty of historians (maybe "low-grade" ones though) always depicted the (Hitler's) choice to make her a interceptor and bomber as one of the worst strategic decisions, even fancy, that seriously contributed to Germany late war bad situation. I really can't get that.

Attacking a B-17/B-29 stream, ok, but pretend to dispute the overall air superiority thanks to the Swalbe, niet ! Beside that, being able to launch bombs on the ground practically without enduring any threat...

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20 minutes ago, Luftschiff said:

Well, I foresee no problems for the Pe-2 gunner to track a 262 going past on a perpendicular course at 860km/h while his bomber's flying inverted through a snowstorm. ;) 

Love this comment!

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21 minutes ago, Solmyr said:

Exactly. I never understood why plenty of historians (maybe "low-grade" ones though) always depicted the (Hitler's) choice to make her a interceptor and bomber as one of the worst strategic decisions, even fancy, that seriously contributed to Germany late war bad situation. I really can't get that.

 

IIRC it is Adolf Gallands Story, but we need to be cautious, because he had his agenda after the war to deceive his own shortcommings as Inspekteur der Jagdflieger. Fact is, that it didn´t matter, because the Jumo engines were far away from operational readyness in 1944 and the decision to prioritise bomber development or interceptor development had no Impact on that fact. Speculation that the Me 262 could have been introduced far earlier is pure fantasy thinking. 

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It was used to shoot down attack aircraft and fighters on the eastern front with success(well, the kind of "success" one can expect under the circumstances) .

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17 minutes ago, sevenless said:

 

IIRC it is Adolf Gallands Story, but we need to be cautious, because he had his agenda after the war to deceive his own shortcommings as Inspekteur der Jagdflieger. Fact is, that it didn´t matter, because the Jumo engines were far away from operational readyness in 1944 and the decision to prioritise bomber development or interceptor development had no Impact on that fact. Speculation that the Me 262 could have been introduced far earlier is pure fantasy thinking. 

 

Yeah, I don't understand those delusional people who seem to think it could've come earlier, even in '44 it was still a maintenance heavy problem child and exactly not what the Luftwaffe needed

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The problem was the engines.  Hitler did not delay its mass introduction, engine technology did. 

 

It also required an experienced pilot.  The engines were very new and very finicky technology.  Rapid closure speed combined with a low velocity gun made hitting a target difficult.  A good pilot could do it but the kids the LW was churning out of flight school in 1944 could not.  There was a reason why allied pilots shot parachuting jet pilots.  The plane was easy enough to replace, the guy flying it not so much.

 

In the flight sim world we will not face these issues.  The engines will work and most of us have the virtual flight time (as well as a "play again" button) to deal with the 262's quirks without much difficulty.  The plane was by all accounts very nice to fly.

Edited by PatrickAWlson
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55 minutes ago, =621=Samikatz said:

 

Yeah, I don't understand those delusional people who seem to think it could've come earlier, even in '44 it was still a maintenance heavy problem child and exactly not what the Luftwaffe needed

 

There's a tendency to take things said by People Who Were There (like Galland) at face value. Galland may have believed that pushing for fighters would have made a difference, but he's obviously biased and had his own bone to pick (like how his maximum effort plan was squandered by Bodenplatte and the Ardennes offensive, for example... not that it would have made an ounce of difference).

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36 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 There was a reason why allied pilots shot parachuting jet pilots. 

 

Yes, largely impotent rage against an enemy using a weapon you can do very little against in the moment.

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14 minutes ago, 7.GShAP/Silas said:

 

Yes, largely impotent rage against an enemy using a weapon you can do very little against in the moment.


Not really all that impotent. 

Training pilots in 262's took longer than 190's and 109's...if you kill the pilots, it delays the problem

 

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17 minutes ago, 7.GShAP/Silas said:

 

Yes, largely impotent rage against an enemy using a weapon you can do very little against in the moment.

 

If there was nothing they could do against them there wouldn't be any parachutists to shoot at :P

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22 minutes ago, =621=Samikatz said:

If there was nothing they could do against them there wouldn't be any parachutists to shoot at :P

 

Yep. Speed was not sufficient to ensure survival even in the 262 if the pilot wasn't careful enough. Sometimes a jet could lose a chase to a prop, too.

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37 minutes ago, Doggo said:


Not really all that impotent. 

Training pilots in 262's took longer than 190's and 109's...if you kill the pilots, it delays the problem

 

 

When you're just another guy in a P-51 watching one or two 262s taking swipes at your bombers and there is no serious, reliable direct response, that makes you impotent.  I don't think that the real reason that Americans were shooting 262 pilots in their parachutes was "this will bring down their operational efficiency about 2% by 1948" but rather "not so smug now you ******, are you?" .

 

29 minutes ago, =621=Samikatz said:

 

If there was nothing they could do against them there wouldn't be any parachutists to shoot at :P

 

 

You could say the same thing about the Vietnamese shooting American parachutists in Vietnam.  And yet they were still largely helpless regardless of any fleeting moments of triumph.

Edited by 7.GShAP/Silas

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4 minutes ago, 7.GShAP/Silas said:

When you're just another guy in a P-51 watching one or two 262s taking swipes at your bombers and there is no serious, reliable direct response, that makes you impotent.  I don't think that the real reason that Americans were shooting 262 pilots in their parachutes was "this will bring down their operational efficiency about 2% by 1948" but rather "not so smug now you ******, are you?" .

 

Well... few examples of "no serious, reliable direct responses": one, two, three, four, five and I have just read a small fraction of pilots encounters. Getting killed shortly after taking "a swipe at Allied bombers".

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I did like to "fly" it back in the original Il-2..I mean aside from the frequent engine fires etc...However in that sim we did have formations of B-17's & B-24's etc that stayed in formation ( and didn't behave like large fighters...)and made decent targets.Of course they fired back too & even in a pretend battle all those 50 cals can take a stunning toll. As others have so cogently noted ,its not much good at all in fighter vs. fighter..( neither in the same sim were F-9-F Panthers much use against North Korean yaks for that matter.)

As to killing pilots in parachutes .I read somewhere some time ago that there were orders from 8th AF on high to do so....for just the reasons stated elsewhere in this thread.

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I used to like flying it in 1946. We had in it a few Co-ops, and once it was up to speed, it was untouchable.

 

Sure, if your opposition fighters were aware of your presence and working together, you would have a hard time shooting them down, but at the same time all they could do was dodge. Unless you did something beyond stupid, like slow down and follow in a turn.... 

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The 1st Me262 kill.

 

Credit for the first Me 262 be brought down in combat belong to Maj Joseph Myers and 2Lt Manford Crory of the P-47D-equipped 78th Fighter Group, who manoeuvred a 1./KG 51 machine into the ground west of Brussels on August 28, 1944.  This occurred with a shot being fired by both sides.  A similar thing occurred on October 2, 1944 when P-47D pilot 1Lt  Valmore Beaudrault of the 356th Fighter Group ran an Me 262 out of fuel in a low-level pursuit into the ground near Dusseldorf.  Astonishingly, the pilot of the jet on both occasions was Oberfeldwebel Hieronymous Lauer who survived both encounters.

The credit for the first Me 262 to be shot down by gunfire, however, belongs to five pilots from 401 Squadron RCAF.  On October 5th, while on a high patrol near the Arnhem-Nijmegen area twelve Spitfire Mk IXs began their patrol at 1353 hrs.  What happened next is briefly described in No 126 Wing’s Summary of Operations for that day:

‘12 a/c of 401 Squadron led by S/L Smith sighted an Me 262 at 1445 diving towards Nijmegen.  The squadron went into attack and the e/a was destroyed. – shared by S/L Smith, F/L Davenport, F/L Everard, F/O Mackay and F/O Sinclair.  The enemy aircraft seemed inclined to show fight and returned fire on many occasions but hit nothing.  The enemy aircraft burned in the air and crashed in friendly territory at E655588.  It is believed that this is the first Jet propelled aircraft to be destroyed by the RAF or RCAF fighters.  The squadron landed at 1508.’

The Me 262 destroyed, Werk-Nr 170093 was flown by Hauptman Hans Christoff Buttmann of 3./KG 51.

No 401’s success on October 5th, was the first Me 262 to be shot down by gunfire and the first in which fire was exchanged by both sides.

All that was left of No 401 Sqn’s Me 262, shot down five miles northeast of Nijmegen on Oct 5, 1944.

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17 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Loke said:

[Video and picture]

 

I see no operational markings on these Me262 and if they were indeed flying from that road, it's not an ordinary road. Me262 required concrete runways to safely operate from, as tarmac could melt/catch fire from the exhaust and other surfaces were too rough / had too high rolling friction. The only roads Me262 could in theory operate from were thus the few Autobahnen existing in Germany, and even there the possibilities were very limited.

 

So I'll stick with what I said, until better evidence to the contrary comes up.

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30 minutes ago, JtD said:

I see no operational markings on these Me262 and if they were indeed flying from that road, it's not an ordinary road. Me262 required concrete runways to safely operate from, as tarmac could melt/catch fire from the exhaust and other surfaces were too rough / had too high rolling friction. The only roads Me262 could in theory operate from were thus the few Autobahnen existing in Germany, and even there the possibilities were very limited.

 

So I'll stick with what I said, until better evidence to the contrary comes up.

 

They were all stretches of Autobahn. For several reasons. One is that only the Autobahn has 2 km straight stretches and 40 meters (absolute minimum) clearance in width. Another huge issue is the requirement for service facilities to ensure operations. You can‘t just use a road and consider this your base for operational services. Also on the video, it is clearly visible that the road is concrete, much rather than regular pavement. You see also how broad the road is by the position of the camera and where the trucks pass.

 

These requirements reduce the number of possible road stretches considerably and I seriously doubt that there were more than two or three of such places. 

 

Judging from the video posted, I think this is filmed at the Stuttgat - Munich Autobah stretch that served as improvised airport. There are plenty of annotated pictures from that location.

 

EDIT: just found this:

https://www.geschichtsspuren.de/artikel/luftfahrt-luftwaffe/113-autobahn-notlandeplaetze-nlp.html

 

About 5 stretches of Autobah confirmed for 262 use.

 

Edited by ZachariasX
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No statement about operational use - as expected. No ordinary roads - as expected. Basically just parking of some newly produced aircraft along a very few selected stretches of the Autobahn - as expected, because that bit is well documented.

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I didn`t think much of the Schwalbe for BoBP until I started to play the reworked campaigns. For offline flying and AI killing it will be ideal.

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On 2/8/2019 at 6:00 PM, 71st_AH_Yankee_ said:

 

There's a tendency to take things said by People Who Were There (like Galland) at face value. Galland may have believed that pushing for fighters would have made a difference, but he's obviously biased and had his own bone to pick (like how his maximum effort plan was squandered by Bodenplatte and the Ardennes offensive, for example... not that it would have made an ounce of difference).

 

dont tell such things and dont offened the real Pilots!

It was their duty to do their best. The Allies needs three

fractions to win against germany, with masses, pretty unfair

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by RoteDreizehn
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1 minute ago, RoteDreizehn said:

The Allies needs three fraction to win agains germany, with masses, pretty unfair

Germany didn't defeat the allies when they had both superior numbers as well as matarial, no matter how hard of a time they gave them. Then it got worse for the Germans. Much worse. In the end, the Allies beat them at literally everything. And remember, if the Germans would have held out just some month longer, they would have been nuked. Totally unfair! Yeah. But that is what happens if you are beaten at litterally everything. "Real pilots might have done their best", but if one of those "real pilots" was in a position where his decisions mattered to some extent, he might try to cover his behind, especially since he's been working "doing his best" for the worst crime syndicate in history. So, nobody is offending anyone here.

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8 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

Germany didn't defeat the allies when they had both superior numbers as well as matarial, no matter how hard of a time they gave them. Then it got worse for the Germans. Much worse. In the end, the Allies beat them at literally everything. And remember, if the Germans would have held out just some month longer, they would have been nuked. Totally unfair! Yeah. But that is what happens if you are beaten at litterally everything. "Real pilots might have done their best", but if one of those "real pilots" was in a position where his decisions mattered to some extent, he might try to cover his behind, especially since he's been working "doing his best" for the worst crime syndicate in history. So, nobody is offending anyone here.

 

you dont understand what my message was.... however... (hint - "with masses")

 

... they would have been nuked

 thats true. but maybe both sides if there were enough time...

Edited by RoteDreizehn

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20 minutes ago, RoteDreizehn said:

 

dont tell such things and dont offened the real Pilots!

It was their duty to do their best. The Allies needs three

fraction to win agains germany, with masses, pretty unfair

 

 

 

 

 

 

Pretty unfair??? What kind of retard are you? Seams that you missed a lot of the real history. Not all real pilots were war criminals

or convinced nazis, but some of them were quite opportunists.

 

Anyway - to use the word fair in conjunction with war is not appropriate. Sorry.

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