Jump to content
JG27_PapaFly

Where's my thread about the FM issue collection?

Recommended Posts

Dear developers, three days ago  I had posted a thread about a list of flight model issues that I have identified in your product. The thread got much attention within the community and, judging by the very positive feedback I received, many felt that it was important.

 

Jason locked the thread within hours, promising to show it to the FM developer. Now, the thread has been deleted altogether.

 

Here are my two cents:

 

a) IMO, the community has the right to know. These issues are serious. They affect all players. I don't want to be called a cheater while playing online just because my opponent had no opportunity to read about the FM issues.

 

b) I'd like to know how high the issues will rank on your priority list. I fully understand that you have tight timelines regarding the upcoming launches, and you must pay your bills. On the other hand, we players make significant payments for most of the content you deliver. This is not IL-2 1946, where a lot of content came for free. I switched to your product a year ago. I've invested 1500€ into a new PC just to be able to play this game, I've put close to 300€ into the game and I still have a product that, five years after it's launch, has serious flight model issues. In addition, the new DM has its own flaws and needs further development. I hope you will put flight and damage models on top of your list until these vital aspects of any flight sim are fixed. For me, especially Bodenplatte has been very disappointing. I don't see the point of adding more planes to the game with the same fundamental FM issues.

 

c) IMO, deleting threads which point to valid issues which affect all players is the least constructive way of handling things. Me and others in the community are willing and put a lot of effort into improving the game.

  • Thanks 1
  • Haha 4
  • Confused 1
  • Upvote 17

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Deleted!

Edited by Haza
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Difficult postmodern times now - looks like the principles of reasonable / scientific communication more and more are replaced by a kind of information filtering and self-portrayal. I think it's short-sighted because fading out critics will frustrate clever kind of customers and cut off useful input. Finally it's a business and the company decided not to present and stand critics. The company is free to do so, would have been wise and polite to present the reasons - at least within a PM to PapaFly.

Edited by 216th_Retnek
typo
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Short term effect to delete posts like this. And to me, this is not business - it's just simply bullshit!

 

Because, as long as observed and known issues are documented and reported politely, "business" companies should be

proud to have committing customers who help them making their product even better - I wrote "even" because it's already

very good, but not perfect.

 

That said, I think they should be thankful for people helping them to evolve their products - that's business to me too! But

critics and error/bug reporting needs to be polite, fair and with no anger.

 

Just my thoughts on this.

Edited by -IRRE-Therion
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
  • Haha 1
  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why was the discussion deleted?
In the deleted discussion, were they saying true things or false things?
Do I face aircrafts benefiting from unresolved bugs?
I'd like those who censored the discussion to answer these simple little questions.
After all my money was not bugged!

 

S! and sorry for my English

  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, JG27_PapaFly said:

a) IMO, the community has the right to know.

That would be a clear no. Or does it say otherwhise in the license agreement of your copy of BoX?

 

2 hours ago, JG27_PapaFly said:

b) I'd like to know how high the issues will rank on your priority list.

You are asking them honestly to put up a curated billboard showing „daily ranked community gripes“?

 

2 hours ago, JG27_PapaFly said:

c) IMO, deleting threads which point to valid issues which affect all players 

The „issues“ might be present, but they are not of equal concern to everyone.

 

The list you gave contains „issues“ that were actually discussed before. Putting them up newly doesn‘t help that much. Especially when you are coming up with things that you haven’t got right entirely. That said, you being a PhD (You said, right? With 20 years glider experience? Welcome to the club!), I count on you understanding that „truth“ is not an easy thing to find in qualitative issues. But it is always the best to fuel feuds. And that certainly wouldn‘t help anyone finding ressources to go after the points you mentioned. 

 

Every now and then someone shows up here with claims about „extremely important issues that totally ruin the game.“ But you know what last of that whisdom? The idea that the game sucks. That is how you helped. In fact, that you got a reply from Jason that quickly was remarkable and that he showed your list to the ones who matter was more you can hope for. There are known ways to pass such „issues“ to the devs. Why don‘t you use those first?

 

So please relax. 

  • Haha 2
  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to add to Z's points: these kinds of "issues" are best presented one at a time, or at least in small, closely related groups, one issue or group to a thread. This has a number of advantages.

 

1) It is easier for people to reply in detail if the issue has already been raised, incorrectly analysed or already has a developer reply. 

 

2) Focused threads hardly ever lead to deletion, and sometimes lead to revisions. 

 

2) It is less passive aggressive (or just plain aggressive)  and hence less annoying.  

 

3) It is less prone to people piling in with extra issues and spiraling out of control - we see time after time threads that just become a jumble of mismatched grievance, often with people contradicting one another. 

 

If you want positive change, structure your communications to have the best chance to bring that about. 

 

  • Upvote 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

...There are known ways to pass such „issues“ to the devs. Why don‘t you use those first? ...

Strange attempts to confuse cause and effect ... it's not PapaFly who has to justify his question where his reasonable critics are gone. imho the boards owner should feel the need to present good reasons for censorship. There's no way for us to understand the touchiness and the resulting limits if there is no explanation. Sometimes I really wonder about the subservience ...

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, 216th_Retnek said:

Strange attempts to confuse cause and effect ...

Nope. He came in and literally asked for it. Censorship has nothing to do with that.

 

@unreasonable gave a good overview of how to turn personal observances about a matter into results.

Edited by ZachariasX
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

The list you gave contains „issues“ that were actually discussed before.

Where? All 16? Including proof?

 

15 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

You are asking them honestly to put up a curated billboard showing „daily ranked community gripes“? 

No, I am asking them exactly what I wrote: "how high the issues will rank on your priority list." Not more, not less. IMO, keeping customers in the loop is what makes a great company. I'd like to know what to expect.

 

18 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

you being a PhD (You said, right? With 20 years glider experience?

You don't seem to pay attention: PhD, 25 years flight simulator experience, glider pilot.

 

20 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

Every now and then someone shows up here with claims about „extremely important issues that totally ruin the game.“ But you know what last of that whisdom? The idea that the game sucks. That is how you helped.

Actually, I wrote the following:

"Dear developers, I'd like to discuss a series of flight model issues with you." Nowhere in my post did I claim anything about, as you put it, "extremely important issues that totally ruin the game". The issues are important to me personally, yes, but hey I'm a human and an entitled to an opinion. I grew up in a country that ran a policy of extreme censorship and suppression of freedom of speech. That didn't go so well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

Nope. He came in and literally asked for it. Censorship has nothing to do with that.

 

I fear you did not see my point. To cite PapaFly "... Now, the thread has been deleted altogether." That's true, isn't it? That's called censorship commonly. Anyhow, there might be reasons for doing so. It would have been polite to present the reasons via PM to PapaFly at least. It would have been wise to publish the decision because the community could have learned something about preferences and the limits of the board owners.

Edited by 216th_Retnek
typo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

See Forum rules:

 

18. Claiming that FM is incorrect without the required proof and starting a flame thread based on such claim is prohibited.

The form for an FM claim consists of:

  • short but consistent description of the claim;
  • link to a reference and to a specific part of such reference that describes correct behaviour of a disputed element/situation;
  • game track record and the list of conditions used to recreate disputed element/situation.

Exception to this rule: FM discussion

 

Not following this form in its entirety will result in locking (locking and deleting) such thread and also in the following:

 

First offense - 7 days ban on entry
Second offense - 30 days ban on entry
Third offence - permanent ban on entry
  • Confused 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, JG27_PapaFly said:

Actually, I wrote the following:

I do not question you being sincere or meaning well. I would not haver replied at all otherwise. Some of the points I could agree on, some I found all too practical, and on some you have been proven otherwise.

 

But it shall not be about you or me being right. It should be about the nature of the disourse. There, I must say your writing sounded a tad more, say.. alarming than your first couple of words. For the sake of the discussion, assuming you were 100% right about everything and if you pile things up like that, the more casual reader gets as take away message that "all is turd". And they will quote you with that tone. I cannot imagine that this was your intention.

 

Also, I would suggest to be a tad more careful about stating scientific "facts". They are harder to come by as one might think. But with your resume (sorry for not paying that much attention for details there) I am sure you know what I mean with that.

 

Essentially, I'd say you were lucky. Hardly anyone gets his message to the devs as you did. But on the other hand, could you cut them some slack for not getting right back to you with a list of their priorities?

 

Communication is not easy. Most or many speak in an other language than their mother tongue. And it matters more what the other understands than what you actually say. And In your case, it was my impression that it was a pretty bold opening for a  thread. A kind of that usually get off the rails.

Edited by ZachariasX
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, 216th_Retnek said:

I fear you did not see my point. To cite PapaFly "... Now, the thread has been deleted altogether." That's true, isn't it? That's called censorship commonly. Anyhow, there might be reasons for doing so. It would have been polite to present the reasons via PM to PapaFly at least. It would have been wise to publish the decision because the community could have learned something about preferences and the limits of the board owners.

 

Well no, you are making the common mistake of thinking this is a discussion forum, it is not. The only purpose of this website is to sell product. The devs own the site, they pay for it, they set the rules. They can delete posts and threads as they wish without having to give any explanation whatsoever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, 216th_Retnek said:

That's true, isn't it? That's called censorship commonly.

No. Censorship =/= keeping the discussion in line.

 

If things were done according the rules just reposed by @SharpeXB, it wouldn't have been deleted.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Thank you for you kind and generous work! We do really appreciate your endeavour to increase the quality of this game. We will offer you a completely free holyday in our marvellous SIBERIA HOLYDAY INN"

Edited by =FEW=ayamoth89
  • Like 1
  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Sgt_Joch said:

Well no, you are making the common mistake of thinking this is a discussion forum, it is not. The only purpose of this website is to sell product. The devs own the site, they pay for it, they set the rules. They can delete posts and threads as they wish without having to give any explanation whatsoever.

 

You make a fair point but I would argue that one of the objectives of the forum is to create a community of players. A community is itself a sales engine -- people tell their friends, organize squadrons, make YouTube videos, help each other out with VR issues.... All those things are helpful. For the developers, the community may help them improve the game too. I came from World of Warcraft (and people constantly tell me it's a different game, YES, but that makes my point no less valid) and that game got immense benefit from the game designers, raid encounter programmers etc being able to talk directly and specifically about game mechanics with their player base. Yes, there was a lot of moderation required because this is the internet and there are jerks, but Blizzard got a lot out of it.

 

I think deleting threads is a bad idea -- unless they are clearly just flame bait -- because it damages community and makes it look like 1CGS has something to hide. Lock a thread and let it fall off the bottom of the page if you like, be very careful about deleting stuff. I think the some of the company folks here are way too sensitive to criticism and claim it's people bashing or flaming their product when in fact a lot of stuff is objective statement of fact.

 

(Also, inb4locked.)

Edited by Alonzo
  • Thanks 1
  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The thread was hidden, not deleted. The post, even if well-meaning caused some others to see it as open season on the developers and pile on and get nasty. That's why I locked it initially and I responded to it. If the post was truly meant as a constructive criticism then the poster should be happy it was seen by us and we'll take it into consideration. But you see, that's not the reason for such posts. It's to try and campaign for changes and engage us, the developers with little time in endless discussions and arguments when we should be working, building and improving. But such endless discussions always turn ugly and makes our forum a unpleasant place. Whenever we have given clear, meaningful answers to such posts it does nothing to improve the civility of this forum or the reasonableness of the community. The question at stake goes far beyond whether or not you like our flight-models. I am currently re-evaluating how to improve our forum and make it a more pleasant place for all and what our policy on engagement with customers should be. Clearly what we've done up to now doesn't work no matter how nice, detailed or interested we are. 

And I responded to the thread the OP made and my answer to that was used to further harass us elsewhere on the net which was uncalled for so I hid the entire thread while I evaluate whether it should remain open or visible. I've seen your complaints and my answer remains the same and I've shown your thread to Petrovich, but I did not say we would respond any further. Even if we did agree that there are some deficiencies (there always are and not saying we agree with everything you posted) , we have no time at the moment to do anything further on the point you brought up and I don't know when any further tweaks to our FMs will occur. Petrovich is currently working on our jet engine technology and then other items the community has told us are important or we are the worst flight-sim product ever.

 

There is no way to make a perfect sim and our time and resources our limited. I will say this again, we will continue, whenever possible to improve our product. Much of what we do, as hard as we try to be scientific, is subjective due to limitations in available data, limited time or talent of those making it. So many factors come into play. But over the years we have developed a work flow that pushes our product and technology ever forward, even if it is slow. And I'll say this again, our Lead Engineer is also a real pilot, a certified flight instructor and a competitive champion hang-glider pilot. Not to mention and extremely talented engineer who has built the physics and flight-models for not one, but three commercial products. He's not an idiot and any obvious deficiencies you happen to see he is already aware of. And over the years he has taken A LOT of what the community has pointed out seriously and time allowed, has made changes including ones that have delayed our projects more than a year and caused us to not be able to build other popular features. It has always been and will always be a balancing act. In the recent survey we conducted, our physics, flight-modeling and feeling of flight got a lot of positive remarks as the best feature of our product So we're doing something right, but there is always room for improvement. 

 

I will also say one more thing, we are not obligated to allow people who have an ax to grind or purposely try to damage our product and livelihoods a free forum to do so. When some don't get the answer they want to hear, that's what they do. We simply will not be a punching bag because you disagree with us.

 

Jason

  • Like 6
  • Thanks 5
  • Confused 2
  • Sad 1
  • Upvote 17

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Murf - you know me better than most on here, but I must point out that this kind of cheerleading and side taking is what helps egg people on. Arguing on the forums has become a sport. I appreciate the support, but let's take a break and just play the game. I'll send you a PM.

 

Jason

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Really sad to read this. But at last it's the Internet. I Really like how open, Transparent and Human the Devs are on this Forum. But People happy with something won't pile on the devs with hugs. So let me do it for once.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

People have voiced mixed opinions in the banned/hidden thread: there was praise for modeling things correctly, as well as criticism for "arcade" aspects. However it becomes more and more clear to me that only the praise or dry scientific data are tolerated here. Any even mildly colorful language when used in a negative way is blown of of proportion as a personal attack on developers. Are the developers really so incredibly thin-skinned ? I would assume that being math, physics and computer-programming geniuses would insulate them somewhat but I guess I am wrong. So as a result this forum has become an antithesis of free speech. Also: what's wrong with debating things ?

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The post about FM issues was not a panic attack. We analysed a lot, flew a lot. Actually we all are beta testers for free. The post about the issues has a value regarding the F M issues. Nowhere was stated that we are in a hurry, or desperate to see it fixed. Just we wanted to share something of value with the community. However i personnaly felt a little offended by the initial reaction. Now hopefully it can be analysed by mr. P. Actually i am much more into quality than quantity. 

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, WheelwrightPL said:

People have voiced mixed opinions in the banned/hidden thread: there was praise for modeling things correctly, as well as criticism for "arcade" aspects. However it becomes more and more clear to me that only the praise or dry scientific data are tolerated here. Any even mildly colorful language when used in a negative way is blown of of proportion as a personal attack on developers. Are the developers really so incredibly thin-skinned ? I would assume that being math, physics and computer-programming geniuses would insulate them somewhat but I guess I am wrong. So as a result this forum has become an antithesis of free speech. Also: what's wrong with debating things ?

 

LOL please go count all the negative posts and all the positive posts in this very forum. If we’re extremely thin skinned we’d have deleted all of them. There are thousands of you and a handful of us and you expect us to just sit here and get pummeled day in and day out. Is that how it is at your job? Excuse us for defending ourselves a little bit after all we’ve improved the past two years. Even so, the forum is still better than it was 4 years ago. So there’s that.

 

Jason

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Where some of PapaFly findings could be hard or at present time impossible to simulate in any actual sims ( not only BOX)  some findings should be quite easy to fix.

 

I've found that in early days of BOS planes got simplificated behaviour with flaps down -   flaps down give a lot benefis to turnfight.   It look that it was fixed and most old planes now behave much more realistic with flaps down (  more drag and lower critical angle of attack).   Some newer planes got still old benefis with flaps down -  e.x. Spitfire MkIX  ( probably Spit MKV too).  Look that these planes got to low drag and too high ctitical angle of attack which allow them to fly arcadish with flaps down.  Most old planes can't do it now.  Maby it was overloked by developers or beta testers or maby beacuse new Western Front planes are still beta.

 

BTW such topics should be stick with FM section and should be open to discussion.

Edited by 303_Kwiatek

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So as I understand the situation is: The Devs acknowledge the FM issues yet focusing on them now could introduce delays elsewhere (like postponing BOBP release) thus it would be unwise. Improvements will eventually come as time permits.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's quite simple really. If you want specific FM issues addressed, start specific threads on each of them, in the right place, with the necessary evidence to show that there is an issue. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Jason_Williams said:

 

LOL please go count all the negative posts and all the positive posts in this very forum. If we’re extremely thin skinned we’d have deleted all of them. There are thousands of you and a handful of us and you expect us to just sit here and get pummeled day in and day out. Is that how it is at your job? Excuse us for defending ourselves a little bit after all we’ve improved the past two years. Even so, the forum is still better than it was 4 years ago. So there’s that.

 

Jason

You really couldn't figure it out already? 
People are making post about issues/problems, we make those posts to help you. We are not your enemy. We want to help you! All we can do is asking questions, hoping we can get answers wich explains, or gives a little view about things. Why we keep bothering with this, instead of leaving the game? because we want to help you to improve the game, even after we payed the price for the game.
I still have the physical version of the game, the Stalingrad map sits next to my monitor since I opened the box. People keep checking topics about DDs, discussing subject related to the game aspects because they would like it understand your problems fully as possible. 
The veteran players really hope the bugs and problems will be fixed(we hope that since years now). I know some veteran players whos thinking about how to help YOU, instead playing the game. 
Before I bought BoS I read everything on the internet, watched almost every videos related to game I could find. Also read that Devs communicating with players - this drew me into the community and the game - in the first place. I was really happy, I thought finally found the perfect place for my passion. 
Even after you sweared at this better forum and called us wierd, people still trying to get your attention to important aspects of the game.
We received no sorry, no infomration, just hidden and locked topics, and some empty words, and blackmailing players if they keep doing this/that they will be banned from the forum.
DDs are just "here are some cool pics we couldn't finish, but we are working hard".
Everybody is happy that you guys are here for us. 
All we need some frankness, and information. 
 

Edited by -[HRAF]BubiHUN
  • Like 3
  • Thanks 2
  • Upvote 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Ehret said:

So as I understand the situation is: The Devs acknowledge the FM issues yet focusing on them now could introduce delays elsewhere (like postponing BOBP release) thus it would be unwise. Improvements will eventually come as time permits.

 

I believe that's the spirit of Jason's post.

 

I strongly believe they are doing their best, and although I notice the quirks, I also notice IL-2 attracts me like no other ww2 combat sim I have tried recently. Let's enjoy what we already have, wait for their opportunity to fix what is wrong, and continue to support 1C / 777 in their endeavour to make IL-2 BoX a great combat flight simulator.

 

Yet, I'm grateful to the OP for he's excellent explanation of the quirks he detected, and I believe are important for the Dev Team to track what is wrong as soon as they find the time for it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's more like this - The Devs acknowledge the complaint about our FMs, yet focusing on them now, to prove or disprove their legitimacy, would introduce delays elsewhere (like postponing BOBP release and delaying other new features and content.) thus it would be unwise at this time to focus solely on investigating FM performance.  Improvements may eventually come as time permits and we agree a change needs to be made.

 

This has basically been our stance for 10 years now.

 

Jason

  • Upvote 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, JG27_Kornezov said:

Meanwhile a skillfull use of FM mechanics brings results lke this:

 

 

Be careful you don’t  hurt your shoulder patting yourself on the back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, -[HRAF]BubiHUN said:

You really couldn't figure it out already? 
People are making post about issues/problems, we make those posts to help you. We are not your enemy. We want to help you! All we can do is asking questions, hoping we can get answers wich explains, or gives a little view about things. Why we keep bothering with this, instead of leaving the game? because we want to help you to improve the game, even after we payed the price for the game.
I still have the physical version of the game, the Stalingrad map sits next to my monitor since I opened the box. People keep checking topics about DDs, discussing subject related to the game aspects because they would like it understand your problems fully as possible. 
The veteran players really hope the bugs and problems will be fixed(we hope that since years now). I know some veteran players whos thinking about how to help YOU, instead playing the game. 
Before I bought BoS I read everything on the internet, watched almost every videos related to game I could find. Also read that Devs communicating with players - this drew me into the community and the game - in the first place. I was really happy, I thought finally found the perfect place for my passion. 
Even after you sweared at this better forum and called us wierd, people still trying to get your attention to important aspects of the game.
We received no sorry, no infomration, just hidden and locked topics, and some empty words, and blackmailing players if they keep doing this/that they will be banned from the forum.
DDs are just "here are some cool pics we couldn't finish, but we are working hard".
Everybody is happy that you guys are here for us. 
All we need some frankness, and information. 
 

 

We don't agree with some of the complaints posted and if when we have a differing opinion you guys don't let it go. You guys also don't read what I say closely enough. I've already stated above why the thread as closed and then hidden and is under review. You guys just don't want any moderation and want the ability to just say whatever you want. Sorry, that can't happen. We reserve the right to moderate our forum as we see fit. And now that's I've been dealing with this I am way behind on some important content creation I have to focus on.  Enough with this crap already. I've addressed this enough today.

 

And I've answered the OP's question. Thread closed.

 

Jason

  • Like 2
  • Upvote 11

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...