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Stuka Dive Bombing


Mauf
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Hello chaps,

 

I've recently started taking the good old Stuka out for some dive bombing and I got a question to the more experienced Dive bomber pilots here:

 

Is the common Stuka dive bombing strategy as described by Requiem:

 

really the correct way of bombing as it was used on normal attack runs?

 

As alternative (though older from IL2 1946):

 

I tried both methods and I find the latter one to be much much more reliable. Yet wherever you look, it seems people are convinced the normal way of dive bombing with the Stuka was with the roll over instead of just dipping the nose down.

 

Here's why I find that odd:

The roll over makes it harder to control your roll angle and you end up easier in a rolled position where you start spiraling instead of going down straight. Also this method imho practically invalidates the dive angle indicator in the side window since the plane, during the curving dive, actually only attains the proper bombing angle only for a short moment (when you're supposed to release the bomb).

 

Contrasting this with a simple nose down dive attack:

Once target enters your window, set your plane for diving, nose down and cross hair onto target, check your dive angle so you can get your crosshair correction (which you now actually have time to do), bomb the target. Much much less that could go wrong compared to the other method and it gives you a chance to use all the provided assists in a simple and straightforward way.

 

So, at least to me right now, the roll-over dive bombing seems to be clunkier, more imprecise and harder to control.

 

So am I missing something? And is there an interview or other source that indicates what the default procedure actually was?

 

thx

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1 minute ago, Thad said:

Salutations,

 

I suggest you use a method that provides you with the most bombing success.  :salute:

 

Heh, that would be practical and yes, I use the nose drop method currently. But still, I like to learn the historically correct way as well as the "works best in game". And there's still this little conundrum I would love to solve, namely: The roll-over method seems unnecessarily complicated and more error prone. If it was the official procedure to use, why?

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I just watched some actual WWII Stuka Dive Bombing footage.

 

In one the flight 'winged' over into their dive. 

 

In several others they were seen to 'nose' down into their dive.

 

I saw none rolling over. But, I'm sure I haven't watched everything.

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5 minutes ago, Mauf said:

If it was the official procedure to use, why?

 

The first method requires practice, but it provides consistent results. The pilots are not subjected to high negative Gs. You can keep eyes on target at all times. It's near impossible to undershoot the target. You are already on an opposite course so you can egress immediately instead of flying over the enemy AAA AGAIN. You drop in a "pass through" manner, not a "wait for it" one. I like this method so much that I tend to use it in fighter bombers as well.

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Just now, Wolferl_1791 said:

 

The first method requires practice, but it provides consistent results. The pilots are not subjected to high negative Gs. You can keep eyes on target at all times. It's near impossible to undershoot the target. You are already on an opposite course so you can egress immediately instead of flying over the enemy AAA AGAIN. You drop in a "pass through" manner, not a "wait for it" one. I like this method so much that I tend to use it in fighter bombers as well.

 

Interesting indeed. I can work with the rollover method but I find it harder and I miss more often. The egress (though you can achieve the same with the nose dive by approaching your target accordingly) and anti-flak aspects might be good clues. Negative Gs aren't that high for me (at least in BoS, I can do it without redouts). Still: Do you find any use for the dive angle indicator then? How do you control that after rolling over and pulling in, you didn't have some off angle and you actually are spiraling towards your target instead of a stable direct dive? How do you tell the moment to release your bomb?

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In RL they bombed into wind, this may explain the different procedure (based on wind vs. target vs defenses). Not sure it makes as much difference in the game.

 

Also, the historical videos may not reflect actual operations as much as good camera angles.

Edited by EAF19_Marsh
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4 minutes ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

In RL they bombed into wind, this may explain the different procedure (based on wind vs. target vs defenses). Not sure it makes as much difference in the game.

 

Also, the historical videos may not reflect actual operations as much as good camera angles.

 

Some might even be cut together with "for show" roll over attacks for the Wochenschau. I'm still searching for videos that show the whole procedure from start to end, best from the cockpit itself.

 

Wind might actually be a good hint as this could explain that you sometimes see videos where they bank into the dive, sometimes they're inverted and sometimes seem to just nose down (assuming the part where they rolled in was not cut-off). So maybe there are more layers to this than initially assumed:)

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I too find the "roll over" and vertical dive method quite hard because it is very hard to judge and not end up in a strange spiral (not a spin) trying to get on target.  I guess practice is the key.

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Various works suggest different proceedures. Price’s excellent Hardest Day indicate that individual practices existed, but maybe that was only a BoB thing.

 

The floor window might suggest that nose-over was intended, but in reality maybe a line-astern and then wing-over in sequence was favoured.

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40 minutes ago, Mauf said:

 

Interesting indeed. I can work with the rollover method but I find it harder and I miss more often. The egress (though you can achieve the same with the nose dive by approaching your target accordingly) and anti-flak aspects might be good clues. Negative Gs aren't that high for me (at least in BoS, I can do it without redouts). Still: Do you find any use for the dive angle indicator then? How do you control that after rolling over and pulling in, you didn't have some off angle and you actually are spiraling towards your target instead of a stable direct dive? How do you tell the moment to release your bomb?

 

I am using VR, so that makes a ton of difference. It's quite difficult to describe, it's more of a gut feeling, although it's much easier than shallow diving in other planes. And there are multiple techniques.

- One is to count how many seconds it takes for the target to go through the bomb window. That gives you a good hint of when to roll over.

- The other is to change direction about 20-30 degrees off-target. Then, from time to time, you roll over almost inverted to check where it is. When it's in the "comfy zone", you do a final barrel roll and drop right on top of it. 

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It seems that there is historical footage that shows both approaches being used, example (the animations are cheese though:D):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrsvKh9GBZc

 

2:20 shows the rollover

2:25 shows a nose dropper

 

And there are snippets that show what seems to be banking dive (4:45) which I would peg as being a dive to the sides. Maybe Marsh is on the spot that this is related to wind direction and they initiate the dive in such a fashion to be against the wind?

 

 

Here we have a book saying that dive attacks could indeed be started by bunting when the target was in the floor window:

https://books.google.de/books?id=exw_DwAAQBAJ&pg=PT21&lpg=PT21&dq=Dive+bombing+wind&source=bl&ots=wYDDMVAh0r&sig=JedMybQ-j9eS1GC5iCGlVOF2rQo&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjO7fai7aTdAhXRKFAKHXmFBHU4ChDoATAAegQIARAB#v=onepage&q=Dive bombing wind&f=false

 

 

Edited by Mauf
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I believe that the bunt over was more commonly used among the different methods, so if you want more historical accuracy or if you simply like that method better then go with that. I  just preferred to roll over as I can judge when the 90° will occur by watching the target on the canopy. I can always do the bunt over version if people want it as that video is from a long time ago, but I wish we had the automated pull out system so I could show it properly.

 

Here is a picture I've screenshotted for you. It's taken from "Aircraft of the Luftwaffe - An Illustrated Guide" showing the bunting procedure.

663627528_Stukabunt.thumb.png.e12bc2535a0cb14dc071d46e30dcf6ed.png

 

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28 minutes ago, SYN_Requiem said:

I believe that the bunt over was more commonly used among the different methods, so if you want more historical accuracy or if you simply like that method better then go with that. I  just preferred to roll over as I can judge when the 90° will occur by watching the target on the canopy. I can always do the bunt over version if people want it as that video is from a long time ago, but I wish we had the automated pull out system so I could show it properly.

 

Here is a picture I've screenshotted for you. It's taken from "Aircraft of the Luftwaffe - An Illustrated Guide" showing the bunting procedure.

 

 

 

Cheers mate. Thanks for your videos by the way. They've been a great resource to me on many occasions.

 

Could you explain that "judge when the 90° will occur" a bit clearer? I mean, in your video you check glance the angle indicator but frankly, I don't see how you can judge by that since in your example, the cockpit frame was actually blocking the view on the horizon:P

Also, your approach is pretty much a curve, so there's only a brief moment when you are at 90° towards the ground. So I assume, you control the rate at which you pull back into the dive to make this all line up (what you allude to at 2:00 in your video). It's a bit like a window you need to hit. What gives you the information that you're on track to hit this window and it all aligns?

 

The reason why I do better with the bunting is probably that instead of hitting a small window of opportunity, I simply dive down and have a steady angle that I can estimate by the dive angle indicator on the window. Then I just count notches on the crosshair (roughly one rang per 10°) and drop the bomb once I'm crossing 1km altitude. I have a much bigger time window to adjust things so they fit.

 

Still, I would really like to get the roll-over version mastered too, looks much fancier:D

Edited by Mauf
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I skimmed over this thread. They did roll over and invert to dive bomb. I'm not sure what the issue ya'll are having. There is plenty of footage and it is mentioned by pilots. Nose downing at high altitude seems clunky to me. Just initiate your roll over dive procedure right when you're directly over target and this will give you a decent 80ish degree dive angle. Doing it too early is what people do wrong at first I think, and this puts the pilot into a weird spinny adjustment cycle due to the steep/premature dive (as someone already mentioned). 

 

The first video description was good. But his dive is very steep. The more veteran the pilot and larger his testicles where - the steeper he would dive and the lower he would drop his bombs. And I mean LOW. The AI in the game is stupid. They drop as high as 1000-2000m IN A DIVE. In real life it was always 1000m or below. Sometimes as low as 300 meteres wasn't abnormal for veteran pilots who had large testicles and ignored all the tracers zipping by. 

 

Also I know everyone and their dog has read Rudels book. But I highly recommend "Memoirs of a Stuka Pilot" by Helmut Mahlke. It gave me far more information on the life of a Stuka pilot compared to Rudels book. It has valuable information on interaction with fighters, the stuka's gunners, ground crew, stuka tactics and strategy as the war progressed in the early stages. 

 

All that being said, remember Stuka's did slant attacks from low altitude as well. This is a 30 maybe 40 degree dive angle initiated by simply nosing the aircraft down.

Watch:

 

 

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2 minutes ago, NETSCAPE said:

I skimmed over this thread. They did roll over and invert to dive bomb. I'm not sure what the issue ya'll are having. There is plenty of footage and it is mentioned by pilots. Nose downing at high altitude seems clunky to me. Just initiate your roll over dive procedure right when you're directly over target and this will give you a decent 80ish degree dive angle. Doing it too early is what people do wrong at first I think, and this puts the pilot into a weird spinny adjustment cycle due to the steep/premature dive (as someone already mentioned).

 

Also I know everyone and their dog has read Rudels book. But I highly recommend "Memoirs of a Stuka Pilot" by Helmut Mahlke. It gave me far more information on the life of a Stuka pilot compared to Rudels book. It has valuable information on interaction with fighters, the stuka's gunners, ground crew, stuka tactics and strategy as the war progressed in the early stages. 

 

All that being said, remember Stuka's did slant attacks from low altitude as well. This is a 30 maybe 40 degree dive angle initiated by simply nosing the aircraft down.

 

1.Likely what is ailing me. What I notice is that when I use a roll-over dive, my bomb lands displaced sideways to my crosshair. So the distance that I control with my elevators seems more or less fine but it's always going either left or right often enough. I yet have to figure out what leads to this (I assume a bad correction of angle during the dive or a bad start into it?) and how I can check for it.

 

2.Thanks for the book tip, if I decide to really dig into the Stuka, I'll give it a read for sure. Does the book by any chance give information on what the standard procedures were?

 

3.Maybe that's where the footage of that comes from.

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18 minutes ago, Mauf said:

 

Cheers mate. Thanks for your videos by the way. They've been a great resource to me on many occasions.

 

Could you explain that "judge when the 90° will occur" a bit clearer? I mean, in your video you check glance the angle indicator but frankly, I don't see how you can judge by that since in your example, the cockpit frame was actually blocking the view on the horizon:P

Also, your approach is pretty much a curve, so there's only a brief moment when you are at 90° towards the ground. So I assume, you control the rate at which you pull back into the dive to make this all line up (what you allude to at 2:00 in your video). It's a bit like a window you need to hit. What gives you the information that you're on track to hit this window and it all aligns?

 

The reason why I do better with the bunting is probably that instead of hitting a small window of opportunity, I simply dive down and have a steady angle that I can estimate by the dive angle indicator on the window. Then I just count notches on the crosshair (roughly one rang per 10°) and drop the bomb once I'm crossing 1km altitude. I have a much bigger time window to adjust things so they fit.

 

Still, I would really like to get the roll-over version mastered too, looks much fancier:D

Sorry for this as it's the worst answer I can give...but TLAR (That Looks About Right). The feel for it comes with practice.

 

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2 minutes ago, SYN_Requiem said:

Sorry for this as it's the worst answer I can give...but TLAR (That Looks About Right). The feel for it comes with practice.

 

 

Tis okay:) Been in that situation myself many times. Even worse when you actually start doing things you're not aware of anymore because it's become so instinctive.

 

One more thing: Do you compensate for wind direction and strength? If yes, how?

Edited by Mauf
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6 hours ago, Mauf said:

But still, I like to learn the historically correct way as well as the "works best in game".

 

Well I read a lot of literature on this matter, and truth is there where no correct way between the two .

First off , all propaganda movies shows the roll and , some shows the actually roll in action. But most Stukapilots came back with red eye due to negative G you got when you slam the dive brake and dive. This game do not have auto recovery , and until it does we are really not historical in our divebombing with the stuka. 

Those talking about the divebombing ( in interviews) say little about the initial maneuvers except in a couple that stated that the roll over dive was mostly for propaganda shots, Pilots tended to get confused and loose their sight on target. Another thing is most Dive-bomb films I seen have been done in a shallower dive than 90 degrees. This was also the fear of loosing sight of the target. They normally approached the target so they could see it on the side of the nose, closing in they would in fact find the aiming point in the horizon  until they could see the target in the hatch. Then slam in the dive brakes and go for a 60 + degree dive. 90 degree is what stated more accurate, but I and many with me find it hard to go 90 degree in all axes, and if you can not do it you miss, 60 degree angle give you only two axis to worry about. Anyway I have seen roll over in real shots from the ground in France and Poland. It might have been more common with the earlier models in Europe. 

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1 minute ago, Mauf said:

1.Likely what is ailing me. What I notice is that when I use a roll-over dive, my bomb lands displaced sideways to my crosshair. So the distance that I control with my elevators seems more or less fine but it's always going either left or right often enough. I yet have to figure out what leads to this (I assume a bad correction of angle during the dive or a bad start into it?) and how I can check for it.

 

2.Thanks for the book tip, if I decide to really dig into the Stuka, I'll give it a read for sure. Does the book by any chance give information on what the standard procedures were?

 

3.Maybe that's where the footage of that comes from.

 

I was just skimming the book because I was sure at some point he does describe it. As time goes by he doesn't describe detail of all attacks, just notable events of course. I'll keep skimming. Hell I might even re-read it! 

 

As for your attack issue. Yeah I mean I don't adjust left or right "aim" at the target, only at the start of the dive. Try and be nice and smooth about the dive, make sure you have dead zones set correctly for your joystick. Obviously I'm sure by now you are trimming your nose down before the dive? if not do that. 

 

I love the Stuka man. It was my first love in this game and the first plane I "mastered". Some say it is hard to fly. I disagree, you can't stall the thing if you tried lol. It's smooth flying when you trim up. Unfortunately the AI is plagued with issues when it comes to the Stuka. And in multiplayer the map designers have the AAA too OP so a Ju 87 sortie will always result in death.

 

I should try to get a group of Stuka bro's to fly together. I know there are squadrons. I don't want to start one, it will only divide us further... but man formation flying and attack with 6-12 Stukas would be ideal, and decimate an enemy objective. 

1 minute ago, LuseKofte said:

This game do not have auto recovery , and until it does we are really not historical in our divebombing with the stuka. 

 

That was done away with because it made the pull out predictable and made the Stukas easy prey for AAA below. 

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2 minutes ago, NETSCAPE said:

That was done away with because it made the pull out predictable and made the Stukas easy prey for AAA below. 

 

You set the auto recovery at a altitude of own choice , And I know for sure they was not disabled. There where a golden rule of starting recovery at 700 meters above ground. But many set it to 500 witch was marginal. The recovery was needed due to pilots often fainted in the G forces they had to endure. Your statement is the first of its kind I ever heard. 

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13 minutes ago, NETSCAPE said:

 

I was just skimming the book because I was sure at some point he does describe it. As time goes by he doesn't describe detail of all attacks, just notable events of course. I'll keep skimming. Hell I might even re-read it! 

 

As for your attack issue. Yeah I mean I don't adjust left or right "aim" at the target, only at the start of the dive. Try and be nice and smooth about the dive, make sure you have dead zones set correctly for your joystick. Obviously I'm sure by now you are trimming your nose down before the dive? if not do that. 

 

I love the Stuka man. It was my first love in this game and the first plane I "mastered". Some say it is hard to fly. I disagree, you can't stall the thing if you tried lol. It's smooth flying when you trim up. Unfortunately the AI is plagued with issues when it comes to the Stuka. And in multiplayer the map designers have the AAA too OP so a Ju 87 sortie will always result in death.

 

I should try to get a group of Stuka bro's to fly together. I know there are squadrons. I don't want to start one, it will only divide us further... but man formation flying and attack with 6-12 Stukas would be ideal, and decimate an enemy objective. 

 

Yes, I trim into dive before rolling over. I'll try lining up the target before pulling back into the dive so I pull onto target with a smooth movement and see if that helps. But just going by the geometry of things, wouldn't that put me at an angle relative to ground and actually lead my bomb to curve away sideways from my crosshair the longer it falls? My assumption always was that during the whole procedure, your wings should stay level and I assumed that I'm messing this up at some point.

Edited by Mauf
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20 minutes ago, LuseKofte said:

 

You set the auto recovery at a altitude of own choice , And I know for sure they was not disabled. There where a golden rule of starting recovery at 700 meters above ground. But many set it to 500 witch was marginal. The recovery was needed due to pilots often fainted in the G forces they had to endure. Your statement is the first of its kind I ever heard. 

 

Helmut Mahlke literally says in his book they did away with the use of the dive recovery system due to AAA predicting their paths. This was early on in the war as well. 

 

----------------------

 

Now an example of rolling over to dive!!!

 

Helmut Mahlke first combat mission in France (page 83):

 

"The Commander ordered us into line-astern attack formation and began a wide left-hand turn, leading us on a lap of honour around the target so that we would all be able to dive on our individual objectives against the wind, just as we had been taught on the bombing ranges. 

 

In the meantime Met's heavy Flak had opened fire on us. There wasn't a great deal of it at first, just a few grey puffs staining the sky off to one side in front of us. The height was not at all bad, but they were much too far away to pose any real threat. The leading Ketten of the formation were already beginning their dives exactly according to plan. 

 

Then it was our turn. A brief check: bomb switches on, radiator flaps closed, dive brakes extended, close throttle, drop the left wing and put the machine into an 80-degree dive. And suddenly the large airship hanger that was my target - and ago- now came rushing up to meet me at a terrifying rate. With the wind constant, the crosshairs of the bombsight remained firmly fixed on the center of the hangar roof. It was growing larger by the second as our altitude unwound: 2,000 meters, 1,500 meters - is the enemy Flak still shooting at us? No time to worry about that now - 1,000 meters. 

 

At a height of 500 meters I pressed the bomb button as briefed. There was a slight jolt as the bomb release fork swung down clear of the arc of the propeller and then the bomb was on its way. As we pulled out of the dive into a climbing lef-hand turn we watched it strike almost dead center near the front of the hanger roof. My two wingmen also scored direct hits. 

 

Three bombs had gone straight through the rood of the huge airship shed. So what happens now? Nothing? Were all three duds? The armourers had set the fuzes to delay but that meant they would detonate only about half a second after impact at most. They must have exploded by now, surely? We continued to weave slightly to throw the Flak gunners off their aim, but kept our eyes glued on the hanger, which was still standing there as if nothing had happened. Every second seemed an eternity. It was inconceivable that all three bombs should have failed to go off. 

 

But the, at last, we detected definite movement in the sides of the shed. They had begun to bulge as if the whole building was being inflated. Cracks appeared and grew into large fissures. The ruptured walls could no longer support the hanger roof and the entire structure collapsed in on itself. This all happened so slowly that it was like watching a film in slow motion. The blast from the three 250kg HE bombs exploding within the cavernous interior of the airship shed had only just sufficed to bring the whole lot crashing down. The smoking ruins of the depot's other installations showed that the other Ketten had also hit their targets."

 

------

 

I'd like to note that Stuka strategy early in the war had the Staffels recover their dives into a climb - this was done away with in the future for obvious reasons. The standard tactic later became to maintain low altitude after recovering from the dive. What Helmut describes here is the former, older tactic of climbing out of the dive...

Edited by NETSCAPE
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@LuseKofte found it:

 

Helmut Mahlke:

 

"And what did we think of the automatic recovery system that was now being installed in production Ju 87's? Not a lot, was the short answer to that. It was useless on operations, as it couldn't be manually overridden. We didn't want it, didn't need it, and had it disconnected on all our new machines the moment they were delivered. Once the enemy's Flak gunners cottoned on to the fact that everyone of us was recovering and climbing away at exactly the same height and at exactly the same angle they would have had an absolute field day. During this most vulnerable phase of our attack we needed full tactical freedom of movement, which is why we preferred to fly by hand. This enabled us to twist and turn in all directions and thus ave us a much better chance of being bale to dodge whatever Flak was being thrown at us " 

 

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Another "roll over" example by Helmut Mahlke: (Malta/Mediterranean operations)

 

"We could now make out the ships in the harbour very clearly. I gave the signal to start the attack and pushed the stick hard over and across, tipping the machine into a 70-80 degree dive."

 

Taking Mahlke and Rudels books into account along with Hozzels interview I think it's safe to say that dive bombing bomb release altitude should be 700m +/-200m. Meeting or exceeding 1000m should be rare, while dropping lower than 500m is definitely not unheard of. (Mahlke describes all his attacks dropping bombs at 500m or below)

Edited by NETSCAPE
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Migeod says that usually dropping altitude was 500m, you could do it lower but it was dangerous. 

 

And my personal opinion about dive recovery, it was needed early because pilots could pass out, but later when they got used to it and diving with hard pull up was nothing to them, they did not need it. There was also a case when I think it was 5 out of 6 stukas crashes during dive because of clouds and they did not noticed ground until it was too late. Auto recovery would be a nice backup. So I don't know why would they remove it. You can still drop bombs and pull up manually, just set auto recovery on 400m and use it just in case you pass out or forget to pull up on time.

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KG_S_Kalle_Kalutz82

@Mauf

@Mauf

How you approach your target, its absolutly situational.

Sometimes you still need a better look over the target area and you will find yourself in flying S-Turns over target area. Then off course, you roll over the wing.

In other scenarios its just fine to nose down in straight or curved line.

I would say, I am a good StuKa pilot and nearly never use the method with the target sighting through the little bottom window.

 

I recommend you the war diary from Hans-Ulrich Rudel "Mein Kriegstagebuch / My war diaries" (but there is much other literature out there too)

or/and watching this in english:

 

 

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2 hours ago, KG_S_Kalle_Kalutz82 said:

@Mauf

@Mauf

How you approach your target, its absolutly situational.

Sometimes you still need a better look over the target area and you will find yourself in flying S-Turns over target area. Then off course, you roll over the wing.

In other scenarios its just fine to nose down in straight or curved line.

I would say, I am a good StuKa pilot and nearly never use the method with the target sighting through the little bottom window.

 

I recommend you the war diary from Hans-Ulrich Rudel "Mein Kriegstagebuch / My war diaries" (but there is much other literature out there too)

or/and watching this in english:

 

 

I've seen that interview, quite a story.

 

I think I've figured the source of my problem. My wings often aren't level when my cross hair is on target. If I try to keep it there, it starts sliding off to the side. The root cause is that I unwittingly roll the plane during the pull into the dive so I get the crosshair on target which is bad. Something like this (exaggerated):

 

BfsEDvw.jpg

 

So... no stick sideways correction during the pull onto the target I guess. Rudder can't solve the problem either. How do you experienced pilots control this? I mean, this must happen before you pull into the dive so do you rudder left or right while flying inverted? Or do you just line up SO perfectly before the roll over and dive that you're always perfectly aligned with your target and don't need to correct?

 

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2 hours ago, Mauf said:

Or do you just line up SO perfectly before the roll over and dive that you're always perfectly aligned with your target and don't need to correct? 

Just for you i made a video. Inside and outside view. As you can see i went for these ships, when i dived i noticed that my target is way more to the right, so what could i do? I could keep diving like on your picture and have this weird angle so even if my crosshair would show target, bomb would not hit it anyway. So what did i do?

If my target was more to the right, i had to roll right, making a small circle to adjust myself to target. You must aim with entire plane, not just crosshair. I made a nice rolling turn to the right and thanks to this i was under my target. So from really bad position i menaged to line perfectly with ship and had almost perfect drop, i think bombs fell a bit to the left but still, some hit ship and rest was so close that explosion underwater so close to the hull will be devastating. As you could see, it split that ship in half :biggrin:

 

I honestly don't know if this is real tactic, it's something i developed while flying, it works so i use it. It was harder because you were going for a moving target here, they even turn on sides to make your life harder so you will never really get perfect line on them  because as you approach them, they will change course. If you were going to bomb bunkier, it would stay (obviously), you could hit it from any side you want, while stuff like ship, you must aim infront of it. So you had only 2 options, attack from front or behind. This is why it's important to aim with your plane..

 

 

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1 hour ago, InProgress said:

Just for you i made a video. Inside and outside view. As you can see i went for these ships, when i dived i noticed that my target is way more to the right, so what could i do? I could keep diving like on your picture and have this weird angle so even if my crosshair would show target, bomb would not hit it anyway. So what did i do?

If my target was more to the right, i had to roll right, making a small circle to adjust myself to target. You must aim with entire plane, not just crosshair. I made a nice rolling turn to the right and thanks to this i was under my target. So from really bad position i menaged to line perfectly with ship and had almost perfect drop, i think bombs fell a bit to the left but still, some hit ship and rest was so close that explosion underwater so close to the hull will be devastating. As you could see, it split that ship in half :biggrin:

 

I honestly don't know if this is real tactic, it's something i developed while flying, it works so i use it. It was harder because you were going for a moving target here, they even turn on sides to make your life harder so you will never really get perfect line on them  because as you approach them, they will change course. If you were going to bomb bunkier, it would stay (obviously), you could hit it from any side you want, while stuff like ship, you must aim infront of it. So you had only 2 options, attack from front or behind. This is why it's important to aim with your plane..

 

 

 

First off: Thank you so much for putting in that effort, really appreciated.

 

From what I can glean from it all: You yourself noted that your bomb was a bit off, probably due to your realignment on the ship. You realigned in a tight circle, not much wandering of the crosshair in relation to the ship (around the 0:53 mark). That means you were already in a pretty close to 90° dive which is good as that won't angle you much in relation the ground (so you crosshair stays trustworthy, so to speak). At 0:56, I think, is where you got some deflection of the type that I drew up in my previous post. When you pulled up to line up the ship. You can also tell you had some roll in it when you pull up from the dive and the horizon is not level (1:03).

 

I notice the same problems on my end (only that I'm still sloppier with the execution and the effects are bigger). So I'm at taking away: That is something that's always there, you just learn to do things cleaner to minimize it to a point where it doesn't affect you anymore. Further, if I look at it, I should just try to drop later. The lower I drop my bomb, the smaller this deflection should be in relation to the target.

 

I will try the following: When in a roll-over dive and I have to realign the plane, get the 90° angle first, then roll to line up and work from there (turn it into an <90° dive, so to speak) instead of trying to basically "shuffle" the plane sideways over to the target with a sort of displacement roll.

 

Thanks for all the write-up from everyone so far, let's see what else comes up.

Edited by Mauf
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The Luftwaffe Handbook by Alfred Price goes into some detail about dive bombing in the Ju87.

 

For example about 30 seconds after starting the dive from 15,000ft the pilot pressed a button on the control column which initiated the automatic pull-out system. A short time after the pull-out was initiated the bomb was released automatically. It also mentions switching on the reflector gunsight, trim a/c for dive, set the pull-out altitude on the contact altimeter, close radiator flaps throttle engine back and opened the ventilation air supply. The pilot opened the dive brakes which automatically lowered an elevator trim tab to counter the nose-up trim change from opening the flaps.

 

There also was a horn that sound 4 seconds before the pull-out altitude (set previously). When the horn ceased the pilot pressed the button on the column.

 

The pilot also used the etched lines on the side panel to help with the dive angle.

 

Dive angle was typically 80°.

 

On bunt or wing over: For small targets, the wing over was used. For larger targets (harbour, marshalling yards) the bunt was used.

Edited by MiloMorai
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we.png.d96edc054e4e34b6fe35b2c347405081.png

 

This is why bombs hit slighty to the left, it was not a perfect line. You can see that I was a bit to the right. Left side of ship is bigger and line is not straight. But i dropped bombs on 500m so it's really nothing that bad. If i was higher or had better initial dive then it would be perfect, but thing is, you can't do everything perfect all the time. From what i remember pilots were expected to hit 50% of their bombs within 25m from target. Hitting targets all the time would not be that fun anyway ;) It's good to miss sometimes. (again, ships move and turn, they won't wait for your to destroy them)

 

And when you attack ships, near miss is also a great hit since bombs work like torpedo hit when underwater.

 

I don't remember what i did so plane turned right on pull up. I think i just moved stick like this or it's because i was not really diving in straight line. But again, these stuff is just small details that don't really matter. Once you will get perfect aim once you won't. The longer you play with, the better you will get.

Edited by InProgress
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I think it's best if I simply provide a record example of what my fudgy dive bombing attempts look like:

 

Dive was a bit sloppy and I ended with my crosshair slightly left of the aimed for target. Yet I havn't figured out:

5KyUidf.jpg

 

I assume my pull into the dive was sloppy and I was diving at an angle so my crosshair was slanted (see my drawing a few posts earlier). As I can tell by the crater, my vertical aiming was good and usually, they look nice on that axis. It's this side slip that has me puzzled.

 

When doing a bunting nose down dive, I do not have this problem. Most bombs nicely on target. So it must be something that I do when using the roll-over or I do something in the bunting dive that I'm not aware of.

Edited by Mauf
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It feels like you were more than 90 degrees. Hard for me to say, you also attacked this truck from angle like this / so it could also make it weird. I don't know when you dropped bomb but from high position 1cm look like nothing but on the ground it can be 10m away. You never really had that target in your crosshair, it was on the left side. Probably this is why you missed.

 

dsa.png.16d528dcafcda3a4fe5473acf63b4a4e.png

 

I assume this is when you dropped bomb, (black dot = truck) you were never really aiming on it, vertical red line shows where bomb would hit, it's next to the truck, up/down, whhatever. But it was never going to hit your truck. You could use a bit of peddals to move a bit to the right i guess.

Edited by InProgress
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6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

Look at your Slip Indicator during the Dive. You are most  likely slipping at a couple of Degress, you your Point of Aim isn't your Point of Impact. 

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6./ZG26_5tuka

Did you center your rudder trim prior rolling over? Once at speed rudder trim will mess up your flight path and make bombs land unpredictable. Also you might want to execute the rollover slower and dive with brakes to allow for more time for leading and correcting your dive attitude.

Edited by 6./ZG26_5tuka
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