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dkoor

So who else is looking forward to P-38 ?

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My first thought is Mosquito ;) due to the low engine installation below the wing but it is firing back - also insufficiently sleek and elegant.  Avia 71 used for utility/training?  Ki-49? I know it says raid Germany but who knows. Or just a Ju88 at an odd angle? 

 

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210/410 in the first section with the defensive fire appearing to emanate front the rear fuse mounted mgs??. Mosquito in the closer up second (trailing edge engine nacelles, astrodome on a wider cockpit, fatter fuselage - and what very much looks like an "oh crap" last minute realisation)?

Edited by BOO
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Holy crap, some of these passes are really low. Like, tree leaves in the radiators low.

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35 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

My first thought is Mosquito ;) due to the low engine installation below the wing but it is firing back - also insufficiently sleek and elegant.  Avia 71 used for utility/training?  Ki-49? I know it says raid Germany but who knows. Or just a Ju88 at an odd angle? 

 

 

24 minutes ago, BOO said:

210/410 in the first section?. Mosquito in the closer up second (trailing edge engine nacelles, astrodome on a wider cockpit, fatter fuselage)?

I definitely can't tell what it is... I searched for twin engined German planes, got some that may fit, FW-187 and even Ju-388... but no definitive recognition.

10 minutes ago, Quinte said:

Holy crap, some of these passes are really low. Like, tree leaves in the radiators low.

Yep, amazing what some of those guys did... many don't even do it in the game:pilot:

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The P38 is a great plane, heavy, not a dogfight plane, a lot of range, solid, could bring the pilot home on one engine, only the late models could dive and recover from the dive without problems, nice if not great top speed, concentrated firepower,  difficult to hit and when hit could absorb a lot of damage,  by VE day 474th fighter group was the only one using P38 j/l/k.

Nice plane to fly in simulations.:salute:

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50 minutes ago, BOO said:

210/410 in the first section with the defensive fire appearing to emanate front the rear fuse mounted mgs??. Mosquito in the closer up second (trailing edge engine nacelles, astrodome on a wider cockpit, fatter fuselage - and what very much looks like an "oh crap" last minute realisation)?

 

I just assumed that they were the same aircraft, but you are right that they may well not be. However, neither is an Me210/410. Both of those has a very low wing - the target(s) here are somewhere in the mid to high wing range. I could go with Ju88 in the first case: if you play around with the Ju88 in the skin viewer from that angle the first one is a possibility but I am really not sure. 

 

The second clip does look horribly Mosquito-ish, but I am wondering what is the bump just below the starboard wing on the front and side of the fuselage?

edit - Apparently that is the location of the pilot's exit hatch... oh oh.

 

Just on the probabilities: how many Ju88s were flying around over Germany in daylight contemporaneously with P-38s? On that basis alone it is far more likely to be a Mosquito.

Edited by unreasonable

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@unreasonable yup id go with an 88 BUT

 

 

According to one comment on a you tube video

 

"The Mosquito was NS522, a Mosquito PR XVI of 140 Squadron, shot down by a couple of P-51s and claimed as an Me 410. By 2/Lt R.E Lewis and 1/Lt McCall of the 335th Squadron, 4th Fighter Group on the 6th October 1944."

 

http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=165286

 

This link below at 03:49 shows the same but with a later bit of footage purportedly showing the mossies right wing burning and it crashing in flames. The card inserts show the Sqn FG and pilots involved. The longer range footage also purports to show the mossie but the apparent return fire seems out of place until you consider possibility that its not return fire but just tracer remnants burning up as the pursing aircraft passes them (perhaps)

 

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/combat-footage-aircraft

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Sexy plane, fast, huge ordnance load, hell yea!

 

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@BOO - the more I look the worse it seems: tracer remnants not return fire being all too plausible. I thought it looked too slim, but taking a look at this picture...well, it even has those odd bulges on the top of the cockpit that are visible in the film. 

 

Mossie it was, then.  Sad, but that sort of thing happens all too often, especially when you have aggressive young men who are also probably a bit bored.

 

 

Mosquito PR.jpg

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A few US pilots said they watched each others back when P-38s were around because the P-38 pilots were Trigger Happy, more plentiful than the LW, and tended to think Mustangs were 109s and Thunderbolts were 190s.

 

So when the P-38 is released, Look Out everyone!

 

3 hours ago, dkoor said:

Yep, amazing what some of those guys did... many don't even do it in the game:pilot:

I fly close to the ground like that, only when I do the ground jumps up and grabs me.

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2 hours ago, Cathal_Brugha said:

A few US pilots said they watched each others back when P-38s were around because the P-38 pilots were Trigger Happy, more plentiful than the LW, and tended to think Mustangs were 109s and Thunderbolts were 190s.

 

So when the P-38 is released, Look Out everyone!

 

I fly close to the ground like that, only when I do the ground jumps up and grabs me.

maybe but the Mossie was shot down by 2 P51s

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There was another ground attack scene where the tracers are definitely coming from wing mounted guns.

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6 hours ago, Cathal_Brugha said:

A few US pilots said they watched each others back when P-38s were around because the P-38 pilots were Trigger Happy, more plentiful than the LW, and tended to think Mustangs were 109s and Thunderbolts were 190s.

 

So when the P-38 is released, Look Out everyone!

 

I fly close to the ground like that, only when I do the ground jumps up and grabs me.

 

Misidentification was very common during the war, german pilots thought P51s were 109s and vise versa. P-51s do look very similar to the 109 when viewed from certain angles. I'm sure I'll make the same mistake every now and then.

Edited by Legioneod

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From "Hellhawks" (a must read) During the Bodenplatte attack at Metz, where the 365th was stationed (Thunderbolts)

 

One of the pilots on the ground "Look at those Mustangs buzzing the field"

Pilot number 2..."Mustangs my ass, those are 109's!"

 

 

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Honestly, not particularly. Its poor (IIRC) dive characteristics don't appeal to me.

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12 minutes ago, Lythronax said:

Honestly, not particularly. Its poor (IIRC) dive characteristics don't appeal to me.

 

An absolute non-factor when flying CAS missions.

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Great train killer. Looking forward to fly this twin tailed devil.

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Miss-identification was a problem on all sides, I think the saying that P-38 pilots were trigger happy probably stems from the fact that the P-38 has a very distinct look and the P-38 squads were used to seeing their own planes so, whether true or not, some of the other fighter pilots said that P-38s shot at anything that didn't look like them.

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Yes I think it looks like a Mosquito too, you get a glimpse of the tail in the end , the shape looks damn like a English design. But  a JU 388 would not fit. I say it is a friendly fire

ju388part2.jpg

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I am definitely looking forward to it.

 

But then,  I am looking forward to most of the BoBP plane set.🍺

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1 hour ago, LuseKofte said:

But  a JU 388 would not fit. I say it is a friendly fire

I don't really think there is even any question. It's quite obviously a Mossie. And noitce them shooting up a B-17 on the ground in the second film. Seems to have landed very intact, on it's wheels, and it's being destroyed so the Germans wouldn't get it.

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On 5/31/2018 at 7:17 AM, Gambit21 said:

The P-38 was anything but a rookie plane.

 

Yep:

 

“I loved the P-38 but I got those kills in spite of the airplane, not because of it,” Olds recalled. “The fact is, the P-38 Lightning was too much airplane for a new kid and a full-time job for even a mature and experienced fighter pilot. Our enemies had difficulty defeating the P-38 but, as much as we gloried in it, we were defeating ourselves with this airplane.”

 

-Robin Olds

 

Why the P-38 Flunked in Europe

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16 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

 

An absolute non-factor when flying CAS missions.

An absolutely non-factor even when flying CAP considering we won't be fighting at 28,000ft where mach effects become prominent

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good vid

🤩

Edited by sop
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As long as they get the mach numbers right and she doesn't compress at 4,000ft. (looking at you 1946 until Team D fixed the mach numbers)

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This is the plane I am most interested with in BOBP.  It won't be the most effective plane for everyone, but using it's strengths its a great fighter. 

Now some of the J's (block J-25-LO+) had the boosted ailerons, as well as a conversion kit for the dive recovery flaps as well, so hopefully they will be options at the very least.  L's were shipped June 44, so unsure why we are getting the J?  Other than that the L isn't really much different from the J.  190's and 109's can dive away from you.  They do that against many other planes, too.

Either way (J or L), the ship is good if you fly it right.  It's a marksman's dream.   

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13 minutes ago, TheFace said:

L's were shipped June 44, so unsure why we are getting the J?

 

The L model primarily was used in the Pacific and (IIRC) the Med.

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22 minutes ago, TheFace said:

This is the plane I am most interested with in BOBP.  It won't be the most effective plane for everyone, but using it's strengths its a great fighter. 

Now some of the J's (block J-25-LO+) had the boosted ailerons, as well as a conversion kit for the dive recovery flaps as well, so hopefully they will be options at the very least.  L's were shipped June 44, so unsure why we are getting the J?  Other than that the L isn't really much different from the J.  190's and 109's can dive away from you.  They do that against many other planes, too.

Either way (J or L), the ship is good if you fly it right.  It's a marksman's dream.   

 

I'd say the main reason P-38s couldn't follow in the dive was because of the lack of flaps and compressibility issues. Once they got the dive flaps the pilots said they had no problem going after the 109s and 190s in a dive.

 

Same thing happened with the P-47, it dove so fast that it just locked up after reaching really high speeds, that's why they added dive flaps to the Jug aswell.

 

One thing the 109s and 190s will have against the 38 and 47 is acceleration, they were able to accelerate faster in the early stages of the dive but eventually the Jug and I think even the 38 would catch up and even overshoot if they weren't careful.

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41 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

The L model primarily was used in the Pacific and (IIRC) the Med.

That makes sense then, wasn't aware of the L's not getting into the north, makes sense with many of the groups transitioning to P51s

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Possum Clover and Hades is a excellent read on the 475th FG a all P38 SWPA group.

 

 

And if you'e into the 38, join this. 

 

http://p38assn.org

 

I've been a member for years.

Edited by [CPT]CptJackSparrow
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8 minutes ago, TheFace said:

That makes sense then, wasn't aware of the L's not getting into the north, makes sense with many of the groups transitioning to P51s

 

Robin Olds’ book “Fighter Pilot” is a pretty good read. He went from the P-38 to the Mustang, then flew F4’s in Vietnam.

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17 hours ago, TheFace said:

Now some of the J's (block J-25-LO+) had the boosted ailerons, as well as a conversion kit for the dive recovery flaps as well, so hopefully they will be options at the very least.  L's were shipped June 44, so unsure why we are getting the J?

Production of J-25-LO block commenced in June 1944 with 210 airframes build and 105 out of those converted into F-5E reconnaissance aircraft afterwards.
Therefore only 105 standard P-38 J-25 with 474th FG at low priority compared to the Asiatic-Pacific-Theatre & the MTO - I wouldn't bet on getting this block!
By far the single most numerous J-block produced was the J-15 with 1400 airframes build total, 200 converted into F-5E.
The J-25 had the dive breaks (they didn't recover anything) factory installed, earlier blocks could be modified accordingly. It's likely we get them no matter which block.

Edited by =27=Davesteu
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14 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

 

Robin Olds’ book “Fighter Pilot” is a pretty good read. He went from the P-38 to the Mustang, then flew F4’s in Vietnam.

 

Strange that Americans were using 109 f4s in Vietnam. 🙂

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As far as that gun camera footage....I thought I was being very ahistoric getting quite that low to get a train, glad to see some of them came to the same conclusion I did....get lower. I also think it looks like a mossi, but I don't think it is. There are a couple frames where what certainly looks like a turret is above the cockpit. And a couple bulges on the right side of the fuselage that I couldn't ID from either aircraft. I think the wings are also too low sitting to be a mossi, but that is all my opinion. Friendly fire was most certainly a problem in WW2, so anything is possible.

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I'm with ya! The P-38 is the one I'm most excited about on the Bodenplatte list. Hopefully, someday we may have a A6M2 Model (X) to fly, when we eventually move over to the Pacific. The P-38 and the Zero, in the top five of favorites for me. 🙂

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On 6/4/2018 at 2:41 PM, [CPT]CptJackSparrow said:

And if you'e into the 38, join this. 

 

http://p38assn.org

 

I've been a member for years.

 

No joke - I pass by this museum every day coming and going from work. Great place. 👍

Edited by LukeFF
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On 6/4/2018 at 4:05 PM, Legioneod said:

 

I'd say the main reason P-38s couldn't follow in the dive was because of the lack of flaps and compressibility issues. Once they got the dive flaps the pilots said they had no problem going after the 109s and 190s in a dive.

 

Same thing happened with the P-47, it dove so fast that it just locked up after reaching really high speeds, that's why they added dive flaps to the Jug aswell.

 

One thing the 109s and 190s will have against the 38 and 47 is acceleration, they were able to accelerate faster in the early stages of the dive but eventually the Jug and I think even the 38 would catch up and even overshoot if they weren't careful.

 
Agreed yes.  It was just dangerous to attempt a high speed dive before the flaps, and even early model 109/190 had stabilizers that you could adjust to pull out of dives easily. 

 

I think the dive flaps will be available for the 38 as an add-on no matter the block of J we get.  Hopefully the hydraulic ailerons too, as the main advantage of the L is the roll rate.  

Acceleration was better in the 38 than the 109 / 190 in a straight line at mid-lower alts (although not as fast as the end model 109/190s).  It was also faster in a dive at lower altitudes (as long as you have the flaps to pull you up).   It also performs well in general at lower altitudes.  Wing doesn't drop in a stall, and stall speed is lower than the 190.  190 isn't known for it's climb rate, although the D9 would be comparable.  Under a bit of flap at lower speeds its really maneuverable too.

 

The main disadvantages of the P38 won't translate to the game very well, which is fun for us.  No/little heat in the cabin, defrost issues, poor engine performance / failures at higher alts (since we don't really fight there often).  Pilot load was also an issue in the P38, things like the drop tank switch being tough to activate with gloves on or needing to drop tanks then adjust mixture then rpm then manifold when bounced whereas the competition had unified throttle.

 

Which disadvantage will be an issue?  The roll rate.  It is easier for the enemy to exploit the poor roll rate without the hydraulic ailerons. 

 

K would have been a beast had it been produced.

On 6/5/2018 at 6:25 AM, =27=Davesteu said:

Production of J-25-LO block commenced in June 1944 with 210 airframes build and 105 out of those converted into F-5E reconnaissance aircraft afterwards.
Therefore only 105 standard P-38 J-25 with 474th FG at low priority compared to the Asiatic-Pacific-Theatre & the MTO - I wouldn't bet on getting this block!
By far the single most numerous J-block produced was the J-15 with 1400 airframes build total, 200 converted into F-5E.
The J-25 had the dive breaks (they didn't recover anything) factory installed, earlier blocks could be modified accordingly. It's likely we get them no matter which block.

Yeah the conversion kits were shipped out in late 43 to MTO/Pac with spring 44 to ETO I believe so it has to be a modification at the very least.  By late 44 early 45 they would have been pretty widespread I would think.  I don't think the 15 block would have had different performance values outside of the slight speed loss from weight increase and better roll rate of the 25 block.  Not sure if the boosted ailerons the block 25-LO J's and L's had were available as kits as well.

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I remember reading that when bounced by German fighters P-38 pilots had to manipulate 15+ instruments to go from *cruise mode* to *combat mode* (simplistically speaking) and that made the plane much less efficient and more dangerous for its pilots than it should have been.

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Engines had a short life due to pre-detonation and over-reving because of the workload: Someone here posted a nice account/report of this (from WWII) a while back.

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38 minutes ago, Freycinet said:

I remember reading that when bounced by German fighters P-38 pilots had to manipulate 15+ instruments to go from *cruise mode* to *combat mode* (simplistically speaking) and that made the plane much less efficient and more dangerous for its pilots than it should have been.

You would have had to drop the tanks, which the switches were tough to use with gloves on, then you had to adjust mixture, then RPM, then manifold in that particular order.  Some would say 2x because it was dual engine but the controls were designed to be manipulated like it was single engine with the handles grouped together.  Any way you slice it by that time you were dead or you had an engine failure because of doing the sequence wrong as the Allison was very sensitive.  You can test it out in the P40.  The German fighters had a unified throttle, which some P38 drivers were asking for.  It was an experienced pilots plane for sure.  It also had better handling under flaps than without, 8 degrees I think, which while not necessarily atypical, it was a larger difference than in other planes.   

 

33 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

Engines had a short life due to pre-detonation and over-reving because of the workload: Someone here posted a nice account/report of this (from WWII) a while back.

 

Not to mention that the Allison was operating at a higher altitude than in any other application of the engine.

Edited by TheFace

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