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So who else is looking forward to P-38 ?

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This discussion of detonation modelling where did the devs say this was something they are working on ?

 

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2 hours ago, Bert_Foster said:

This discussion of detonation modelling where did the devs say this was something they are working on ?

 

In one of the development updates, a while ago. 

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If its done well that would be great. Things like High Boost low RPM limitations etc coupled with a move away from the current timers.

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On 4/3/2019 at 7:34 AM, Ehret said:

 

Then check PvP videos from the "study sim". There are no timers at least they are unlike we have here. I could fly 60" as long I had fuel and pulled WEP for 20m with mismanaged engine before it seized. (in the P-51D)

 

In the IL-2 you can check the La-5F - no timer whatsoever; you can run at maximum power as thermals are allowing. The K4 can cycle between emergency/combat and in practice it acts like unlimited. Earlier LW fighters have 30m of strong combat power - often enough for a whole sortie. Yaks? No timers. LaGG? No timers, too.

 

It's the P-40E, the P-39L and the P-47D which have timers and they are short. Soon, this "infamous club" will be joined by the Mustang and the Lighting...

In lagg your limited by temperatures, after update that added that steams and mix smooks, you cant fly 100% power at low alts or climb even with 100% open radiators, youll brake engine in 5-10min. On summer maps yur flying 100% open rads and 90% power most of time, only when you get 5km+ your able to climb on full power and if flying strait close water rads to 70% for example. So After they modeled its bad colling correctly, temperatires are limiting what youll do, more natural to me as i can see temp gauge, in usaf airplanes i can fly full power and 0% rads on summer maps but god forbid i mis count seconds and engine is gone with no warning what so ever.

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, =475FG=DAWGER said:

It would seem the code is not nearly as complex as we might be led to believe and the reasons for not making it happen in IL2:BOX a bit mysterious.

 

Some planes in the IL-2 are already limited by thermals. If you use WEP and do maneuvers in the P-39L the engine may overheat shortly. Increasing mix will help but reduces power a little and adds a visible trail.  Opening radiators help even more but will degrade performance significantly. Usually it's just better to throttle down and just keep radiators in flush setting.

 

If you really need highest performance available then you keep flush rads and turn WEP on. The coolant will boil and leaks but there is enough for minute or two. If you won't stop then... (surprise, surprise) cooling efficiency will start to degrade and eventually you will have to throttle all way down and open rads 100% just to keep engine from seizing.

 

So the IL2 has a similar mechanics to the "air MMO", already.

 

12 minutes ago, 77.CountZero said:

In lagg your limited by temperatures, after update that added that steams and mix smooks, you cant fly 100% power at low alts or climb even with 100% open radiators, youll brake engine in 5-10min. On summer maps yur flying 100% open rads and 90% power most of time, only when you get 5km+ your able to climb on full power and if flying strait close water rads to 70% for example. So After they modeled its bad colling correctly, temperatires are limiting what youll do, more natural to me as i can see temp gauge, in usaf airplanes i can fly full power and 0% rads on summer maps but god forbid i mis count seconds and engine is gone with no warning what so ever.

 

I just posted notes about the Airacobra which behaves similarly. Yet, timers are added on the top of thermals limit modelling for the P-39L. Other limiting factor is fuel usage: 50% of full load is needed for 15m at full WEP and 100% mix. (tested in QMB with unbreakable set)

Edited by Ehret

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4 minutes ago, =621=Samikatz said:

Anyone who thinks that temperatures aren't relevant in this game needs to fly the Yak-7

The point is that temperature should be relevant in ALL piston engine aircraft in the game. Getting engine modeling basically correct on some planes and using fairy tale land on others is not a good path forward.

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Its modeled on all airplanes, some airplanes just have better coling and then when you have timer limiting you you dont end up seing that you would overheat if you used max power for longer time, like ehret say, try it with unbrakable and youll see that they would overheat at some point.

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Posted (edited)
On 4/2/2019 at 10:31 PM, Higaluto said:

Would it be possible to have the Norden bombsight mod, the so-called Drop Snoop. Remove all forward guns and have a bombardier there with the norden, then all the rest of the p38s drop bombs on his que never even seeing the target. 

Would be a cool thing but i guess not so necessary. 

I don't think there is any hope left for a Droop Snoot modification. Only blocks up to and including the J-20 were converted.
Unfortunately a missed opportunity, but I guess they felt obligated to do the J-25 as it's the closest to the initially announced P-38L. Very unfortunate in fact...

Edited by =27=Davesteu

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I´ll take the dive recovery flaps and boosted ailerons over that droop snoot any day.

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That's you fair opinion.

The dive flaps are not going to recover or decelerate anything. They are meant to adjust the airflow at high diving speeds. Boosted ailerons come to effect mostly at high speeds. So if you like boom and zoom tactics, which I do, you may benefit from those features, but they don't reinvent the Lightning.
Many people are apparently looking forward to the airframe's ground attack capabilities - the Droop Snoot would add a lot of possibilities to this and a "bomber" for the non-fighter centric users.

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2 hours ago, =27=Davesteu said:

I don't think there is any hope left for a Droop Snoot modification. Only blocks up to and including the J-20 were converted.
Unfortunately a missed opportunity, but I guess they felt obligated to do the J-25 as it's the closest to the initially announced P-38L. Very unfortunate in fact...

 

I would just like to say that "Droop Snoot" is just about the cutest name for a modification.

 

The fuselage art almost draws itself. :)

 

dbea99d78914cb8093416d2f284a7ef1.jpg

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3 hours ago, =27=Davesteu said:

 

That's you fair opinion.

The dive flaps are not going to recover or decelerate anything. They are meant to adjust the airflow at high diving speeds. Boosted ailerons come to effect mostly at high speeds. So if you like boom and zoom tactics, which I do, you may benefit from those features, but they don't reinvent the Lightning.
Many people are apparently looking forward to the airframe's ground attack capabilities - the Droop Snoot would add a lot of possibilities to this and a "bomber" for the non-fighter centric users.

 

Technically they are called dive recovery flaps for a reason. They are meant to help recover from high speed dives and get out of compressibility.

I'm not denying what they did (change airflow) but they were designed for dive recovery.

They aren't dive breaks so yeah, they won't slow you down all that much.

 

As for the ailerons, it will have the fastest roll rate at high speeds, faster than the 190. They'll definitely be helpful when flying 300-400+ mph.

 

2 hours ago, 71st_AH_Yankee_ said:

 

I would just like to say that "Droop Snoot" is just about the cutest name for a modification.

 

The fuselage art almost draws itself. :)

 

dbea99d78914cb8093416d2f284a7ef1.jpg

 

Oddly enough I used to have a basset hound names droopy.

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4 hours ago, =27=Davesteu said:

Unfortunately a missed opportunity, but I guess they felt obligated to do the J-25 as it's the closest to the initially announced P-38L. Very unfortunate in fact...

 

Well, the thing is that a case could be made for several production blocks of the J model. After all, it's not as if the P-38 squadrons in the ETO were all using the exact same subvariant. The advantage of the J-25 is of course the dive brakes and the boosted ailerons, and it leaves open the possibility of modeling an earlier J model down the road (for, say, a Normandy scenario). 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Legioneod said:

Technically they are called dive recovery flaps for a reason. They are meant to help recover from high speed dives and get out of compressibility.

I'm not denying what they did (change airflow) but they were designed for dive recovery.

They aren't dive breaks so yeah, they won't slow you down all that much.

As for the ailerons, it will have the fastest roll rate at high speeds, faster than the 190. They'll definitely be helpful when flying 300-400+ mph.

Some official documents call them dive flaps, others call them dive recovery flaps. Every type of dive flap assists recovery in a direct or indirect way, that's why I prefer to reserve the term "recovery flap" for automated and assisted systems. But let's not argue over connotations. They definitely have their merits, as do the boosted ailerons, but they didn't and won't reinvent the aircraft.

 

2 hours ago, LukeFF said:

Well, the thing is that a case could be made for several production blocks of the J model. After all, it's not as if the P-38 squadrons in the ETO were all using the exact same subvariant. The advantage of the J-25 is of course the dive brakes and the boosted ailerons, and it leaves open the possibility of modeling an earlier J model down the road (for, say, a Normandy scenario). 

That's true. With only 105 airframes delivered, the J-25 was in fact quite a rare bird. Nothing wrong with that block per se, but a J-20 with Droop Snoot modification available would have added more than just another fighter. 9th AF P-38 units all had Droop Snoots assigned to them during the BoBO timeframe and most of the time flew CAS and attack missions.

Edited by =27=Davesteu

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On 4/3/2019 at 9:32 AM, =475FG=DAWGER said:

It is interesting that you bring up War Thunder.

 

In fact, War Thunder Simulator Battles has modeled engine thermodynamics in a way the actually resembles the real world. It is far from perfect but it works pretty well.

 

I can use the WT P-38 series as an example.

 

There are two modes, automatic engine controls and manual engine controls. In automatic, the mixture, prop, throttle, oil and water radiators are automatically controlled. In WEP, the radiators slam closed and you will quickly hit the overheat conditions. Out of WEP the radiator flaps will modulate in an attempt maintain temperature. There are significant drag penalties with the flaps open.

 

In manual mode, the player can control mixture, prop RPM, throttle, oil and water radiator flap position. Flying in manual provides definite advantages. The developers have stated that for most aircraft, radiator flap positions above about 40% open really don't add much cooling but do add lots of drag. This tracks with real world operation of cooling devices that rely on Bernoulli to create a suction to create airflow through the radiator.

 

The maps are tiny in War Thunder so one can fly around at combat power in some aircraft and some require cruise setting to stay cool. The map matters. Flying in a Battle of the Bulge map requires much less cooling than Sicily.

 

In the P-38's we can fly around Sicily at 40% radiators and combat MP/3000 rpm. In cooler maps, 25% radiator will do. Slam into WEP and the engines begin to heat above normal temperatures. There are basically three stages or temperature ranges.

 

The first range is essentially "Stay in this range for 5 minutes and engine damage will START to occur" , next is the "2 minutes and damage STARTS" and the final range is "you have 1 minute and damage will START to occur". 

 

The temperatures have inertia so trying to ride the timers may still result in a damage causing overheat.

 

Also, the engines seem to have an overheat "memory". Once you get them into the upper temperatures they will quickly reheat even after cooling them back down to normal.

 

Once you damage them, you can halt the damage progress most of the time by backing off the throttle. Get them too hot and the damage will continue to progress and may or may not stop before engine failure.

 

Players are punished for not respecting the limits but not with instantly seizing engines. Sometimes one will seize on the way home at partial power. Sometimes both if you really push them hard trying to live.

 

Aircraft with fluid injection lose WEP as a selectable power level once the tank is empty.

 

Each aircraft has its own particular temperatures and varying rates of thermodynamic inertia so it isn't one size fits all. What works in a P-38 will cause a Spitfire to heat up very quickly. Some aircraft have manual oil and water radiators, others only one or the other and others no manual radiators. 

 

This isn't the perfect system nor has WT correctly modeled all facets of engine operation. Mixture controls are very basic although on the P-38 pulling the mixture, throttle, and propeller back will reduce fuel consumption accordingly and above 17,000 feet you cannot run in full rich. The engine loses power and runs rough.

 

My point is that the "arcade game" has managed to come up with an engine management system that mimics how real world pilots operate without using egg timers.

 

In the real world, run an engine too hot for too long and damage from minor to major will eventually occur based upon the severity of the excursion outside of the limits.

 

It would seem the code is not nearly as complex as we might be led to believe and the reasons for not making it happen in IL2:BOX a bit mysterious.

👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻 CHT and other gauges exist for a reason. If reality mimicked BoX you wouldn’t need them, just a stopwatch.

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2 hours ago, =27=Davesteu said:

Some official documents call them dive flaps, others call them dive recovery flaps. Every type of dive flap assist recovery in a direct or indirect way, that's why I prefer to reserve the term "recovery flap" for automated and assisted systems. But let's not argue over connotations. They definitely have their merits, as do the boosted ailerons, but they didn't and won't reinvent the aircraft.

Of course they won’t. The aircraft was good already and quite capable in the hands of an experienced pilot.

 

Itll be a good aircraft though not as fast. Good maneuverability and decent climb and stall speed.

 

It won’t be the bottom of the list by any means when flown properly.

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Do we know more about the p38 due date?  I have been away for a while.  Thnx

 

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Aircraft do not have customer disclosured “due dates” - ever... for good reason. :)

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You guys will never figure out how to make a perfect game out of a fight simulator, or a perfect flight simulator out of a game.

 

The fact is that WWII fighters were never equal in all respects. Some were better than others and that's just the way it was. Timers are silly game hacks. If you blow it up, you should have to deal with that.

 

The European pilots didn't like the P38 because the cockpit was cold as hell at 30,000 feet. You can't model that on a computer. The engines blew up with great regularity at high altitude mostly because the turbosupercharger regulators sucked. All or nothing at high altitude. You also couldn't follow a fighter in a high altitude split S when you were protecting bombers... The dive of death and all. They sent Fowler flap kits to England early on but the plane carrying them got shot down so the modifications never happened to the earlier models. By the time the J model was being shipped out, Mustangs were already doing the job just fine so most of them went to the Pacific for long range intercept and escort duties. They did very well there and produced some of the highest scoring pilots of the whole war (on the Allied side of course)

 

If you just want the P38 for online dogfighting, I'm sure it will be very good at low to medium altitude, if you are good at flying it. The actual pilots for the most part said they could outmaneuver anything but a Zero or Hamp in it.

 

I am definitely looking forward to it and will spend a good bit of time in it.

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36 minutes ago, Jaegermeister said:

You guys will never figure out how to make a perfect game out of a fight simulator, or a perfect flight simulator out of a game.

 

The fact is that WWII fighters were never equal in all respects. Some were better than others and that's just the way it was. Timers are silly game hacks. If you blow it up, you should have to deal with that.

 

The European pilots didn't like the P38 because the cockpit was cold as hell at 30,000 feet. You can't model that on a computer. The engines blew up with great regularity at high altitude mostly because the turbosupercharger regulators sucked. All or nothing at high altitude. You also couldn't follow a fighter in a high altitude split S when you were protecting bombers... The dive of death and all. They sent Fowler flap kits to England early on but the plane carrying them got shot down so the modifications never happened to the earlier models. By the time the J model was being shipped out, Mustangs were already doing the job just fine so most of them went to the Pacific for long range intercept and escort duties. They did very well there and produced some of the highest scoring pilots of the whole war (on the Allied side of course)

 

If you just want the P38 for online dogfighting, I'm sure it will be very good at low to medium altitude, if you are good at flying it. The actual pilots for the most part said they could outmaneuver anything but a Zero or Hamp in it.

 

I am definitely looking forward to it and will spend a good bit of time in it.

 

Its definitely a capable aircraft in the right hands.

 

Johannes Steinhoff said it was the toughest aircraft to fight against when flown by a skilled pilot.

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43 minutes ago, Jaegermeister said:

The actual pilots for the most part said they could outmaneuver anything but a Zero or Hamp in it.

 

 

Or Oscar...don't forget about Oscar.

An Oscar pilot thwarted 2 P-38's for 20 minutes before the P-38's gave up and went home.

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49 minutes ago, Jaegermeister said:

You guys will never figure out how to make a perfect game out of a fight simulator, or a perfect flight simulator out of a game.

 

The fact is that WWII fighters were never equal in all respects. Some were better than others and that's just the way it was. Timers are silly game hacks. If you blow it up, you should have to deal with that.

 

The European pilots didn't like the P38 because the cockpit was cold as hell at 30,000 feet. You can't model that on a computer. The engines blew up with great regularity at high altitude mostly because the turbosupercharger regulators sucked. All or nothing at high altitude. You also couldn't follow a fighter in a high altitude split S when you were protecting bombers... The dive of death and all. They sent Fowler flap kits to England early on but the plane carrying them got shot down so the modifications never happened to the earlier models. By the time the J model was being shipped out, Mustangs were already doing the job just fine so most of them went to the Pacific for long range intercept and escort duties. They did very well there and produced some of the highest scoring pilots of the whole war (on the Allied side of course)

 

If you just want the P38 for online dogfighting, I'm sure it will be very good at low to medium altitude, if you are good at flying it. The actual pilots for the most part said they could outmaneuver anything but a Zero or Hamp in it.

 

I am definitely looking forward to it and will spend a good bit of time in it.

Some things I've heard are workings on such things, such as pilot modeling. Increasing immersion and such, his physical limits. Things like this.

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2 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

 

 

Or Oscar...don't forget about Oscar.

An Oscar pilot thwarted 2 P-38's for 20 minutes before the P-38's gave up and went home.

 

True, unfortunately for the Japanese pilots, the P38 drivers could fly just as high and faster so they just came down and through them with their 4 .50s and cannon and kept going. I bet the Zero pilots didn’t think that was “fair” either.

 

Just like the Buffalo pilots didn’t think it was fair when the Zeros attacked Midway.

 

Technological innovation is not fair but it’s reality. It’s still going on today.

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19 hours ago, Legioneod said:

 

Technically they are called dive recovery flaps for a reason. They are meant to help recover from high speed dives and get out of compressibility.

I'm not denying what they did (change airflow) but they were designed for dive recovery.

They aren't dive breaks so yeah, they won't slow you down all that much.

 

As for the ailerons, it will have the fastest roll rate at high speeds, faster than the 190. They'll definitely be helpful when flying 300-400+ mph.

 

 

Oddly enough I used to have a basset hound names droopy.

There is a significant amount of drag associated with the dive flaps. The entire purpose of the dive flaps is to generate lift forward of the center of pressure to counteract the center of pressure moving aft due to the shock wave associated with local supersonic flow. This lift creation produces significant amounts of induced drag.

 

Nearly identical designs are used on modern jets with the exception that they stick them on top of the wings to "spoil" the airflow and kill the wing lift. They allow faster descent. Well designed placement minimizes the pitch moment associated with their deployment and they definitely and a lot of drag and make the airplane vibrate when deployed at high speed. Slamming the spoilers to full in a Global Express at cruise speed feels like you slammed into a deep pothole.

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On 4/4/2019 at 8:26 PM, Jaegermeister said:

 

True, unfortunately for the Japanese pilots, the P38 drivers could fly just as high and faster so they just came down and through them with their 4 .50s and cannon and kept going. I bet the Zero pilots didn’t think that was “fair” either.

 

That's exactly the sort of thing that we should see in these games.  Coming from a WWI background,  the plane dictates the tactics as much if not more.  A Spad trying to fight like an Albatros is an idiot.  That is how it should be.  As US aviator Joe Foss said, "If you are alone against a Zero at the same altitude, go home, you are outnumbered." 

 

Game balance in IL2 shouldn't be about one-on-one duels.  That is a fantasy.  It should be preserving the historical environment in which pilots operated.   So yeah, Americans flying big, heavy, powerful planes needed to expand fighter doctrine to achieve their maximum potential.  That is part of what I love about that era of fighter combat. 

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2 hours ago, Rekt said:

 

 

Great points. The more I do it and see it done the more I think "dogfighting" in the traditional sense is for suckers.

 

Perfect example was on WOL the other night, I committed to a bit of a vertical duel with a 109...stupid in general (moreso in a P-40) but I started with an advantage and had a chance to put him away. As I was at the top of a loop, getting ready to drop down on him some other 109 just derping around at low speed got a perfect close-range side profile shot that took out my controls and killed me. I had no idea he was even in the area and put myself on a silver platter.

 

No, there's no good way to maintain situational awareness in a duel...these days I'm all for slashing through the enemy and zooming to reset. If that causes him to bug out then he can't accomplish his mission of attacking my guys or defending his, which is ultimately the job of air superiority to begin with.

Wing man tactics address defensive lookout while engaged. Double attack doctrine defines the defensive lookout responsibilities resting with the free fighter. As engaged and free fighter switch, so do the lookout responsibilities. 

 

This works on offense and defense.

 

Loose deuce is an extension of double attack doctrine that is extremely effective but only when flown by an experienced, skilled wing pair.

 

Suckers fly alone. "Dog fighting" is where the fun is. While the high low bounce, shoot and haul ass to the AAA might be "realistic" it sure is boring. 

 

It is much more fun to fly in two or four ship against others doing the same, playing 3D chess at 250 knots.

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