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LLv24_Veccu

Profitability of 1C Gaming Studios and 777 Studios

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Hi all!

 

Just interested what is the financial situation of developing companies? What was the profitability of companies in fiscal year 2017?

 

Anyone know this? I quess financial info should be available and public to all...

 

thanks,

 

br, LLv24_Veccu

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Financial info for 1C/777 or any other company like this is not public. Just because you bought the product doesn't mean you have a 'seat on the board'.

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Are these companies registered in Russia or where?

 

In my opinion it would be good for users future investments to product if this kind of info is also given. If developing companies are financially strong it increases  reliability to product...

Edited by LLv24_Veccu
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inb4 the lock

However if you're interested, under the old forum UI we could search for users by their forum tags and therefore see how many pre-order copies each expansion had sold.
Last I checked BoK had sold almost 2x as many pre-order copies as BoM, and Jason has stopped mentioning financial doom and gloom in the Dev Diaries. From those two things I think we can conclude that 777 is better than it was this time a year and a half ago at the very least.

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No private company in their right mind is going to open up their books to the competition and show their weakness or strength. Publically traded companies do so only because they must.

 

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20 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

No private company in their right mind is going to open up their books to the competition and show their weakness or strength. Publically traded companies do so only because they must.

 

 

In Germany it is mandatory by law for every company to open up their Books and publish their financial reports. See here: https://www.bundesanzeiger.de/ebanzwww/wexsservlet

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Just now, LukeFF said:

 

Well, that's wonderful, but 1CGS isn't a German company.

 

We all know that and to be frank I have no interest in the financial report of 1CGS. I have interest in you producing a well selling BoBp and Pacific expansion so that you can stay in business to complete the eastern front until 1945.

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From discussions I've seen concerning other game developers accounts, seeing the books does little to illuminate things anyway. People just use them to 'prove' either that (a) the company is making an unjustifiable profit, and they should be forced to cut prices by 90%, or (b) that the company is running at an unsustainable  loss, and will fold next week. Or sometimes both...

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1 minute ago, RedKestrel said:

Well, consider me educated! I thought that was for only publically traded companies...

 

Every company which is either GmbH, AG, SE, KGaA, KG‘s or OHG‘s and GmbH & Co. KG is bound to make their financial situation public. However that´s specific for Germany.
 

 

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Any privately held company has no obligation to share their financials with their customers.

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3 minutes ago, Jade_Monkey said:

The level of entitlement and absurdity is reaching new highs.

 

It's just a cultural thing. In many countries we are used to such a thing being public information, and it's perfectly normal to ask for it. In america everyone likes to keep money related information a tight secret.

 

So yeah, @LLv24_Veccu, don't expect 777 to publish their financial situation. Unless they become a publicaly traded company, they are not obliged too.

 

 

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I think it’s safe to say the company is healthier than its been from the start. They are looking to backfill a vacancy or two, hire at least least two more bodies and can afford to farm out some design work. I’m sure they aren’t lighting their fireplaces with hundies yet but I don’t think they are as hand to mouth as they have been. You have to be an avid reader of this forum to glean that information. Just don’t expect to see it in spreadsheet form. Parallel expansions FTW!

Edited by II/JG17_HerrMurf
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I haven't seen them begging us to buy a collector plane in a while, so I'd guess they're doing pretty good.  

 

PS. I bought them.

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1C is Russian, so Russian law applies.  In the US publicly traded companies must have open books.  Private companies need not, at least to the public.  

 

My suspicion is that 1C is getting by.  They are best in class, however, they are best in class in a niche market.  That's why fans need to be willing to pay a bit more.  It's still peanuts compared to the price of hardware.  I can buy everything 1C makes for Great Battles 4x over and still not approach the cost of the hardware that I need to run it.

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The Financial state of 1C is nothing to do with us. We are Customers only...and Customers do not have the right to delve onto the financial affairs of the Companies they buy from.....unless of course that person is an investor. Just because a person buys a product...does not make that person an investor.

As long as 1C and/or Jason keeps coming up with the goods, I am perfectly happy for 1C to carry on as they are doing

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Earlier this year I remember a thread saying that we as customers who pre-order should be considered investors... absurd. 

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It’s true we are investors in the loosest sense of the word. The same way I invest in CocaCola - one bottle at a time. They wouldn’t exist without my money but I have yet to see a dividend check.

 

*Editted for clarity and sarcasm.

Edited by II/JG17_HerrMurf

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If 1C/777 folds we as customers may not be able to enjoy their products anymore. On the other hand good business leads to investments and improvements in the products line. As a customer I feel it's a perfectly legitimate concern.

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Sure, the concern is perfectly legitimate. Any expectation of examining a privately held company is not. Go down to your local barber, hardware shop or bar. I don’t want any of those to fail. However, if I demand to see their books I’d expect two of those to politely decline and the third to throw me out on my ear.

Edited by II/JG17_HerrMurf

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44 minutes ago, II/JG17_HerrMurf said:

It’s true we are investors in the loosest sense of the word. The same way I invest in CocaCola. They wouldn’t exist without my money but I have yet to see a dividend check.

 

As for the dividends, why not? Most recent record date is 3/15/2018 and paid off 4/2/2018. If you bought and held securities prior to ex-date you should have gotten dividends. 

 

And I'd have to disagree with the whole "we are investors" part. The products we buy are expenses to us in just about every sense of the word. Investments make money for the security holder. It's a bad idea to start looking at expenditures as investments when they themselves don't make money for us. We buy a game - in fact a license to use the game and that's it. We don't buy interest in the company. 

 

We're non-investor stakeholders as customers, but we don't get to vote on executive decision-making. 

 

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I think it becomes a little blurry when we start talking about preorders.  People are paying for a product that doesn't yet exist, and which their money alone cannot bring into being.

 

They are putting down that money in hopes that they will one day be provided with a product that takes many times that much money to actually produce; and which, in the software world, is not guaranteed to ever exist.  Things happen.

 

They are not "investing" in the financial market sense of the word; but they are investing in a sense.  In this case they still don't really have grounds to demand to know the financial state of the company; but they do have grounds to expect reasonable updates on the status of the product; which these developers are very good at doing.

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1 hour ago, No.85_Camm said:

The Financial state of 1C is nothing to do with us. We are Customers only...and Customers do not have the right to delve onto the financial affairs of the Companies they buy from.....unless of course that person is an investor. Just because a person buys a product...does not make that person an investor.

As long as 1C and/or Jason keeps coming up with the goods, I am perfectly happy for 1C to carry on as they are doing

 

A customer has every right to delve into any information he sees fit - but the company may not be under any obligation to give it.  That depends on the jurisdiction: even where there are reporting requirements for private companies (most countries have them) the information that must be reported is fairly basic, including controlling shareholding, list of directors, turnover,  etc. You would almost never get specifics like sales figures, although you can get some of a fix on it by looking at the Steam data. 

 

When ICGS made a hash of the original IL-2 Sturmovik BoS release, it seemed quite possible that the series would die. Anyone buying the follow up games on the basis that the devs would - eventually - get their act together and make a worthwhile SP experience was taking a lot on faith given how awful the initial release was.  Anyone hoping for a WW1 version (ie RoF 2) is still currently buying on faith. People in this position have a perfect right to wonder about the survival and health of a company asking them to buy products that they do not particularly want, in order to provide development funds for things that they may get, in several years time.  (Indeed I wonder if I will survive long enough :(). 

 

People are not entitled to sales data - but they are perfectly entitled to lose faith or speculate in it's absence.  That is the company's choice to make.

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Just dont forget. If there were not founders and ppl who invest money into preorders - there wouldnt be any 1CGS or this game. Thats a fact.

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9 hours ago, MarderIV said:

 

As for the dividends, why not? Most recent record date is 3/15/2018 and paid off 4/2/2018. If you bought and held securities prior to ex-date you should have gotten dividends. 

 

And I'd have to disagree with the whole "we are investors" part. The products we buy are expenses to us in just about every sense of the word. Investments make money for the security holder. It's a bad idea to start looking at expenditures as investments when they themselves don't make money for us. We buy a game - in fact a license to use the game and that's it. We don't buy interest in the company. 

 

We're non-investor stakeholders as customers, but we don't get to vote on executive decision-making. 

 

My quoted post was VERY tongue in cheek.....

Edited by II/JG17_HerrMurf

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Like @hrafnkolbrandr says, the line is starting to blur. We're not investors in a strict sense of the word, but I imagine that BoBo is being heavily funded by its own preorders, and I expect this was also the case for BoK. 

If no-one picked up preorders I'd hazard a guess that development would be much slower and more difficult. 

 

It doesn't give us more rights, we don't get to share in the profits or anything like that, but on the plus side we do get to access content as soon as it's ready rather than having to wait until the whole package is released. 

 

But at the same time this means people putting money down in good faith expecting to see certain features which, mildly, it can be very disappointing if they don't materialise. 

There's also a fair bit of rhetoric from the devs saying 'we need you to buy this or we go broke' and elements of the community saying 'you have to buy stuff even if you don't want it or you'll never get the Pacific / Flying Circus / better AI / better multiplayer etc' that its not entirely true to say that BoX is a product made and released and we're just consumers. 

 

Sign of our times, and the state of the industry, I guess. And doesn't detract from the fact that this is one of the better early access implementations I've seen. 

But still, we're in a grey area. 

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Creating a sim for ultra-demanding, small community just can't be only for the money. In that sense, we are investors, investing in our enjoyement. I wish people woke up from their average bunnyhopping FPS's and start thinking. :D

 

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We, who buy premium for early access, are indeed a form of investor. We have in a way signed for a convertible note to the amount of the premium early access price. This note will be converted automatically into the final game when it is released. The date of release is not carved in stone but let's say it is with a precision of a quarter (three months).  If the product released, is at our expectation/satisfaction level then the deal is closed and the note conditions have been fulfilled. Until now Jason has met our targets aka released the product we have paid for. We are also an investor in the sense that we do carry a risk. If 1C goes belly up in the midst of the development then our money is gone as there will be no product delivered, and there are no compensation of any form that are written in the note.

 

We know all this, we have accepted it when we paid/signed the note. There was nowhere mentioned that we would have access to the financial accounts of the company so I have no problem with that. After all the invested amount for each of us is really minimal. I would be happy to invest much more if I could get a note for a top of the class pacific theater simulation.  To my point of view the Pacific theater was extremely dependent on aviation and in a decisive way. Except for the battle of Britain, all other theaters had air battles but the result was more dependent on ground forces, infantry, tanks, etc.

 

 

Edited by IckyATLAS

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Ok, putting the silliness aside; NO, you are not an investor of any type.

 

When you put money down on a car that is not in inventory you are not an investor by any stretch of the imagination. There is no boxed version of our game so you can’t pay cash and “drive off the lot with it” from BestBuy. Like the car, you have to wait for delivery. You are a consumer and nothing more.

 

Stop conflating terms and rationalizing. You are simply not an investor and you will not ever see the books. To think otherwise just sets up a potentially new “I’m a Victim” scenario when things don’t go as you may have envisioned them. 

 

There are investors Jason and Co answer to who DO make a profit when the game does well and have legal rights regarding their investment. Those people have put down tens of thousands of dollars, or more, against real risk. Your risk is $80 at a time and the stakes are a couple of gigabytes. The two scenarios are not even remotely comparable regardless of the terms used to describe it.

 

Despite how flowery the language otherwise, you are simply a customer. If you are an early adopter you get a shiny gold bar but it has no cash value on the open market.

Edited by II/JG17_HerrMurf
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3 minutes ago, II/JG17_HerrMurf said:

Ok, putting the silliness aside; NO, you are not an investor of any type.

 

When you put money down on a car that is not in inventory you are not an investor by any stretch of the imagination. There is no boxed version of our game so you can’t pay cash and “drive off the lot with it” from BestBuy. Like the car you have to wait for delivery. You are a consumer and nothing more.

 

Stop conflating terms and rationalizing. You are simply not an investor and you will not ever see the books. To think otherwise just sets up a potentially new “I’m a Victim” scenario when things don’t go as you may have envisioned them. 

 

There are investors Jason and Co answer to who DO make a profit when the game does well and have legal rights regarding their investment. Those people have put down tens of thousands of dollars, or more, against real risk. Your risk is $80 at a time and the stakes are a couple of gigabytes. The two scenarios are not even remotely comparable regardless of the terms used to describe it.

 

Despite how flowery the language otherwise, you are simply a customer. If you are an early adopter you get a shiny gold bar but it has no cash value on the open market.

 

I understand where you are coming from but I cannot fully agree, since I suspect the OP's query is not about legalities.

 

It is true that we - as customers - have no right to see any data other than that which is required by the relevant law: ie little or nothing. But then again Jason has no right to expect us to buy stuff to keep his company going unless we think that it is worth it in the here and now: unless he treats us, in effect, as investors.  

 

There is nothing wrong with the OP wondering whether the company will be around to support the game in a year or two, any more than you might want to know if the dealership selling you a car is likely to be there to service it when it breaks.  Obviously the amounts are different, but the principle is the same.  Good companies realize that when their customers "have a stake" their prospects are improved, because the customers develop brand loyalty. 

 

Actually, I think that in many respects Jason does treat us as investors: the communication recently has been outstanding, clarifying what we can reasonably expect and why we will not get all we hope for, while asking for support. Personally I find that more convincing than a partial release of financial information - but that is because one of my past lives was as a financial analyst. ;)  

 

So to the OP I would say do not bother about asking for financial or sales figures - look at the track record of the team in delivering on it's plans and it's openness in communicating progress. 

 

 

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All of your facts are good and true. I agree with every single point. Unfortunately, it is also true that none of those add up to "investor."

 

We have probably drifted a bit from the OP at this point, however. So, back on topic. No, we will not see the books.

Edited by II/JG17_HerrMurf

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I think 1C/777 has done a great job so far. I am sure we are better than ever now after the release of 3.001 and the announcement of Bodenplatte.
The Development of three titles aside from Il-2( Tank Crew, FC) Only means that they have the money to do so, even if they are not as expensive as an Il-2 title.

 

I remember that the situation with Battle of Moscow was a harsh one but everything has been improving since then and they have already got their results, an excellent outcome now. Even if Moscow was unpleasant for some people (Planeset, setting) many customers have bought it as for today.

 

I truly believe that we are founding this game as we buy content but don't forget the huge amount of work the Devs have done. Hard work has it's reward and I think the flight sim community knows this. (Weekends at the office for 1C, Doing an exhaustive work just before the Kuban release.. I won't forget those facts and the product, is brilliant)

It will improve as everything has room for improvement and now, fixing some problems with the new update.

Two or three years ago I thought this was going to be a painful and slow journey. Now it seems that it has become the best WW2 sim of the recent years

Edited by LF_ManuV

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Unless you're Ubisoft, this is a hard buisiness to make a lot of money in, i think. It's very time consuming work, and you aren't making any money while you're creating. This reality is what crowd funding and pre buying is all about, I suppose. The need to have some money coming in while the creating is going on. Then your game comes out and the money comes in, but then slows down while you're making the next game. I'm just guessing, of course, since I know nothing about the industry.

  A big company like Ubisoft has revenue coming in all the time because they have so many titles out there. 

  I'm going to guess (again) that Jason is doing okay, but he's no millionaire. When you run a small gaming outfit, I believe it is simply something you really love to do and that's what keeps you going. 

  They're making long range plans, so I don't they're going under any time soon if that's what you're concerned about.

   

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19 hours ago, sevenless said:

 

We all know that and to be frank I have no interest in the financial report of 1CGS. I have interest in you producing a well selling BoBp and Pacific expansion so that you can stay in business to complete the eastern front until 1945.

 

Last time I checked, Luke wasn't producing IL-2 but I dont know, is there anything you are hiding from us Luke? :P 

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3 minutes ago, LF_ManuV said:

I think 1C/777 has done a great job so far. I am sure we are better than ever now after the release of 3.001 and the announcement of Bodenplatte.
The Development of three titles aside from Il-2( Tank Crew, FC) Only means that they have the money to do so, even if they are not as expensive as an Il-2 title.

 

I remember that the situation with Battle of Moscow was a harsh one but everything has been improving since then and they have already got their results, an excellent outcome now. Even if Moscow was unpleasant for some people (Planeset, setting) many customers have bought it as for today.

 

I truly believe that we are founding this game as we buy content but don't forget the huge amount of work the Devs have done. Hard work has it's reward and I think the flight sim community know this.

Battle of Moscow was the title I was most interested in when I finally decided to buy, strangely enough... The improved career mode and the fantastic sale is what finally pushed me over the edge to buy BOS and BOM. When I can afford it I'm getting BoK. But the I-16 and the MiG-3 really grabbed me, moreso than the planeset of BOS. 

And the impending BoBp has the P-47, which is my favourite warbird of WWII, so I'm probably going to have to get that eventually too.

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34 minutes ago, LF_ManuV said:

I think 1C/777 has done a great job so far. I am sure we are better than ever now after the release of 3.001 and the announcement of Bodenplatte.
The Development of three titles aside from Il-2( Tank Crew, FC) Only means that they have the money to do so, even if they are not as expensive as an Il-2 title.

 

I remember that the situation with Battle of Moscow was a harsh one but everything has been improving since then and they have already got their results, an excellent outcome now. Even if Moscow was unpleasant for some people (Planeset, setting) many customers have bought it as for today.

 

I truly believe that we are founding this game as we buy content but don't forget the huge amount of work the Devs have done. Hard work has it's reward and I think the flight sim community knows this. (Weekends at the office for 1C, Doing an exhaustive work just before the Kuban release.. I won't forget those facts and the product, is brilliant)

It will improve as everything has room for improvement and now, fixing some problems with the new update.

Two or three years ago I thought this was going to be a painful and slow journey. Now it seems that it has become the best WW2 sim of the recent years

 

Totally agree with that sentiment, the changes they made  brought me back and now I view it as the best.

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