Advice needed for cooling hardware

[ShugNinx]

Hello !

 

I'm in the process of replacing my i5-6600 with a delidded i7-7700K, hoping to reach the 4.5GHz barrier and hopefully go beyond. 

I was about to go for a traditional high-end Noctua air cooling for the CPU, but noticed that dual fan closed-circuit water cooling kits are not much more expensive.

 

What are you guys currently using for OC cooling ? How much did you gain by switching from air to water cooling ? 

Any recommended product ? (or ones to avoid)

Precise hardware references expected please.

 

Edit : on a side note, references of your PC enclosure would help as I'm also changing mine in the process for the same cooling purposes.

 

Thanks in advance for your help !

 

Edited March 21, 2018 by ShugNinx

[Rangerjoe03]

I was using the DeepCool Captain 240EX and the pump just went out recently, after only one year.

 

I bought the MasterLiquid Pro 240 to replace it and I’m having a lot better results, lower temps during idle and load.

 

This is with an i7-6700k in a mini-itx case btw. I’ve never used air cooling in this rig. Hopefully this helps!

Edited March 21, 2018 by Rangerjoe03

[ShugNinx]

Thanks for you input Ranger !

[dburne]

I have been running a Corsair H100i closed loop water cooler on my 4820k for over 4 years now, works great for it.

 

When I do a new build later in the year, I will probably go that same route.

[Guest deleted@134347]

yeah, any dual-fan closed loop cooling system is better than any air cooled set-up in my opinion. Especially for the delid mods. I have a corsair 100 something as well on my 8700k delid and i get a max of 50C at full load after an hour of running 95prime stress testing app.

[BeastyBaiter]

My i7-8700k is running with an Arctic Liquid Freezer 120 (push/pull, double thick radiator). It keeps it as cool as can reasonably be done without LN2 or delidding. Even on silent mode, it does an excellent job. Here's a review of it, though not by me. Has a comparison to some other popular 240mm coolers. At $60-70 USD, it's an excellent value.

 

 

[ShugNinx]

I think I'll stick to a classic high-end air cooler for now. Reviews for Noctua NH-D15 go through the roof, while for the same price I can only get a decent - yet average - water-cooling AIO kit, with limited benefits.

 

Other concerns are :

- durability (fluid tend to evaporate over time),

- risks of fluid leaks,

- my motherboard isn't designed for water-cooling, as it has no specific onboard power&control header. Not a big deal as AIO kits come with adapters, but that means no control of the pump, 

- drawbacks of WC is the lack of airflow around the CPU, usually provided by the CPU fan. That especially concerns me since I also need to overclock my RAM sticks from 2133 MHz to the max possible.

 

But again, thank you all for your advices.

Edited March 21, 2018 by ShugNinx

[BeastyBaiter]

Fair enough, deliberately putting a container full of liquid on top of your CPU and above your GPU does carry more risks. You might want to take a look at this air cooler comparison:

 

 

[Guest deleted@134347]

29 minutes ago, ShugNinx said:

I think I'll stick to a classic high-end air cooler for now. Reviews for Noctua NH-D15 go through the roof, while for the same price I can only get a decent - yet average - water-cooling AIO kit, with limited benefits.

 

Other concerns are :

- durability (fluid tend to evaporate over time),

- risks of fluid leaks,

- my motherboard isn't designed for water-cooling, as it has no specific onboard power&control header. Not a big deal as AIO kits come with adapters, but that means no control of the pump, 

- drawbacks of WC is the lack of airflow around the CPU, usually provided by the CPU fan. That especially concerns me since I also need to overclock my RAM sticks from 2133 MHz to the max possible.

 

But again, thank you all for your advices.

 

- fluid evaporation from AI is nonsense. It's a closed loop, i.e. it has no serviceable parts/reservoirs. If it "evaporates" it means there's a leak in a system.

- I've had 4 or 5 corsair closed loops systems over the span of 10 years. Not a single leak. If you get a nicely QA'd model .. or.. Corsair.. Risk is pretty close to zero. It's one of those 'set and forget you have it'

- You don't need to control the pump. As a matter of fact the pump runs at the same speed most of the time. There's no specific power/control header either on the mobo's. My corsaid pump has a mini-usb port which you plug a regular usb cable in to and run it internally to a mobo usb connector. I can run some diagnostics software and get stats from the pump, such as flow, temperature read-out, I think there's a way to control the pump speed.. but I've never used it. Again, it's 'set and forget' it.

- RAM cooling fad is something I don't understand. If you have a proper directional air flow thru the case I've never come across any reason for specific RAM cooling solutions. I have XMP'ed RAM from 2000 to 3200, from 2600 to 3600.. my latest set up is running it.. there are 0 issues with RAM temperatures.

[ShugNinx]

Hi Moosya,

 

I'm pretty sure you're right, but I made my choice. I realize WC is a another field of knowledge to acquire, and right now I've got more urgent matters. I'll surely reconsider WC with my next motherboard/CPU though.

[Aloha-Snackbar]

FWIW my RAM is cooler when im not blowing hot air over it...

[ShugNinx]

@Aloha-SnackbarWith a stock Intel CPU cooler or similar design, with CPU fan installed parallel to the mobo and pushing hot air to it, you're probably right indeed.

Yet vertical coolers are perpendicular to the mobo, sucking and pushing air parallel to it, thus more likely to circulate fresh air around the RAM stick right beneath it.

Most negative downside (aside from weight on the mobo) is it makes RAM access difficult.

Edited March 21, 2018 by ShugNinx

[Guest deleted@134347]

2 hours ago, ShugNinx said:

Hi Moosya,

 

I'm pretty sure you're right, but I made my choice. I realize WC is a another field of knowledge to acquire, and right now I've got more urgent matters. I'll surely reconsider WC with my next motherboard/CPU though.

 

you're right, and my apologies, re-reading my post it does convey a rather aggressive tone. That wasn't my intention, but you know how the technical arguments/discussions go on the intertubes.

 

I guess my point is that AIO (all in one) water cooling solutions aren't the same breed of WC as the DIY custom loops. The AIO's are designed for a plug&play operation, extremely easy to install and come with 0 maintenance. The only reason I was recommending those is that I also do sound engineering/recording on the side and I have been building PC's since mid 90's. The quiet operation of the PC was and still is a paramount need for the recording studios be it a bedroom or any professional setups. Since CPU AIO cooling solutions came on the market that became my go-to product since from the early 00's.

 

And as far as RAM cooling - you can maintain a steady flow of air if you configure a pull/push fan configuration in your case, i.e. front fan(s) is pull and rear fan(s) is push. You'll be surprised at the amount of CFM (feet^3 x min) this configuration pulls through the case. Even with the air-based CPU cooler you need this setup otherwise the CPU fan is just moving the hot air inside the box. 

 

cheerios.

[A_radek]

Shugninx. 

 

I'm using the d-15 with a 7700k and as long as you have some in/out case fans you won't be dissapointed.

 

Apart from the two 140cpu fans I use 5x 120mm case fans (noctua) all controlled by temps. No fan ever has to spin at more than a very modest rpm so the setup is efficient and more importantly very quiet.

 

The d-15 is quite heavy and will put a bend on most motherboards when installed. For less worrying when moving the case, I tied a thin wire between top of radiator and case top. Probably unnecessary but it takes weight of the motherboard.

 

 

[ShugNinx]

Hello !

 

13 hours ago, moosya said:

you're right, and my apologies, re-reading my post it does convey a rather aggressive tone. That wasn't my intention, but you know how the technical arguments/discussions go on the intertubes.

 

No offense taken, I'm well aware of electronic communications bias. 

 

I chose to replace my good ol' Antec P160 for Fractal Design Define S for optimum airflow within the case. But guess what ? The order I placed yesterday has been cancelled due to a stock management error (delidded CPU not available anymore). So it looks like I can think this over a bit more.

 

Damn it's hard to choose new hardware ! It doesn't only hurt the wallet...

[JaffaCake]

De-lid the CPU

 

Use gallium-based thermal compound as the interface (do not re-lid - apply cooler directly).

 

Use any water-based cooling setup preferably with 2 fans. It must have copper CPU pad as interface.

 

Its extremely effective - you'll reach unstable overclock frequencies long before your CPU will reach limiting temperatures.

[ShugNinx]

@JaffaCakeThat's not something I'm willing to do by myself. Buying it from a well-known reseller also comes a with a 3-year warranty (from the reseller, not from Intel of course).

[Guest deleted@134347]

5 hours ago, ShugNinx said:

@JaffaCakeThat's not something I'm willing to do by myself. Buying it from a well-known reseller also comes a with a 3-year warranty (from the reseller, not from Intel of course).

 

i don't believe de-liding is being offered by any resellers. You pop that cpu cover off and you just voided the warranty.  I did de-lid/re-lid of my cpu, replaced the thermal compound with a gallium one and put the cover back on. Gain 20C degrees in reduction. It's an easy project, any computer builder can do it without a sweat. I'd put the cap back-on though as applying any cooler directly on the die - you over tighten the bracket and the die goes bye-bye. But with the cap on it's just the same cpu but with the better heat transfer.

[ShugNinx]

36 minutes ago, moosya said:

 

i don't believe de-liding is being offered by any resellers.  

 

Oh yes, some resellers propose delidded CPU :

https://siliconlottery.com/collections/kabylake (1 year warranty)

https://www.grosbill.com/html/landing/CPU_grosbill/landing.php (in french - 2 to 3 years warranty)

[Guest deleted@134347]

10 minutes ago, ShugNinx said:

 

Oh yes, some resellers propose delidded CPU :

https://siliconlottery.com/collections/kabylake (1 year warranty)

https://www.grosbill.com/html/landing/CPU_grosbill/landing.php (in french - 2 to 3 years warranty)

 

those entrepreneur minds, I tell ya.. :D   I knew a couple of little dyi'ers who decided to delve in to the hardware reseller business, but these guys you mentioned are kind of like you and me.    At first i thought you meant the resellers such as newegg and alike. Anyway, these guys will build you a whole system I presume. But paying $470 for a 7700k?  

 

anyway, I get you. You want warranty. It just comes with a premium. And mind you with a very questionable support/warranty model from these shops. Especially on the modded hardware.

Edited March 22, 2018 by moosya

[ShugNinx]

1 minute ago, moosya said:

 

those entrepreneur minds, I tell ya.. :D   I knew a couple of little dyi'ers who decided to delve in to the hardware reseller business, but these guys you mentioned are kind of like you and me.    At first i thought you meant the resellers such as newegg and alike.

 

I guess SiliconLottery can be considered an outsider in the US, but GrosBill is a major hardware reseller in France.

 

1 minute ago, moosya said:

Anyway, these guys will build you a whole system I presume.

 

No way ! I'm just buying a case, a CPU and cooling system (btw, I change my mind again and bought the Masterliquid Pro 240 ;-)

 

1 minute ago, moosya said:

But paying $470 for a 7700k?  

 

That's for the 5.2GHz tested one, the 5.0GHz is at 350$.

Average price for the standard 7700K here in France is 350€, I'm paying an additional 50€ for delid with warranty. Yes, it hurts...

 

[A_radek]

You stated 4.5ghz as a goal in your first post. The 7700k will do 4.8 without breaking a sweat or delidding. 

 

80% of the 7700k's will reach 5.0ghz provided good cooling and a -200 avx offset. Also without delidding.

 

Quoted numbers are from asus rnd department. Voltages they use are 1.25v for 4.8ghz and 1.3v for 5ghz with Avx offset. They also have cooler recommendations for respective clock speed in that article.

https://rog.asus.com/articles/guides/the-kaby-lake-overclocking-guide/

 

So In my opinion, if you have gaming in mind rather than reaching that 5+ for the sake of it, I'd just go buy one from a store that won't have any issues with you returning it for whatever reason.

 

 

Edited March 23, 2018 by a_radek

[Guest deleted@134347]

17 hours ago, ShugNinx said:

 

 in France is 350€, I'm paying an additional 50€ for delid with warranty. Yes, it hurts...

 

 

oh, you're in France, I see now. Yeah, the prices outside of US are pretty steep.. I paid $400 for my 8600k.

 

I see you went with Masterliquid Pro 240, good choice!  Just inspect it for leaks before installation. If it's dry it'll run forever. Cheerios!

[Wolf8312]

What would be the diffrence in FPS between say a 5.0 and a 5.1 anyone know?

[ShugNinx]

@Wolf8312 Can't tell yet (I've just installed my 7700K), but advises are to push to 4.5GHz minimum. Mind your RAM frequency as well.

Edited March 24, 2018 by ShugNinx

[Wolf8312]

I'm kind of interested if 7700k and 8700k can both be pushed to the same clock speed, and we dont really need multicore for our purposes, are there any benefits to having the more expensive 8700k? I guess that OC'ing a 7700k to a similar clock speed as the 8700k (5 is pretty doable) one would be pushing and straining it a little more?

 

Are there any other benefits, beside's cores and clock speed that are demonstratable when gaming? Personally I dont notice huge differences between 4.9 and 5 if any though I havent sat down and measured it.

Edited March 25, 2018 by Wolf8312

[ShugNinx]

8 hours ago, Wolf8312 said:

I'm kind of interested if 7700k and 8700k can both be pushed to the same clock speed, and we dont really need multicore for our purposes, are there any benefits to having the more expensive 8700k? I guess that OC'ing a 7700k to a similar clock speed as the 8700k (5 is pretty doable) one would be pushing and straining it a little more?

 

8700K is more expensive but comes with stock 3.7 regular speed and 4.7GHz turbo, and possibly more head room for further OC, while the 7700K is 4.2/4.4GHz. I chose the 7700K because my mobo won't accept anything higher (Z170 PCH), and also had to replace cooling for OC purposes (ATX case and WaterCooling).

Anyway, if you need to replace your mobo, go for a Z370 model and an 8700K.

 

8 hours ago, Wolf8312 said:

Are there any other benefits, beside's cores and clock speed that are demonstratable when gaming? Personally I dont notice huge differences between 4.9 and 5 if any though I havent sat down and measured it.

 

Can't help much on that topic, I guess it also relies on graphic card, RAM speed, possibly cooling also...