Force Feedback Induced Camera Movement Stutter

[13Nrv]

smoothness in game 100 % and adapt your track ir profile to your liking ( speed smooth and curves ) ...yep it s just a work around but it works for me since 2 years ....still hoping that the problem will be solved ...   i use a work around that works  for sure but it s not as it should work .....   as soon as i disable ffb i can see how different it is ... and how much better it is .....   unfortunetaly ...without ffb it s unplayable ....

Edited August 31, 2018 by 13Nrv

[E_Davjack]

EDIT:  I tried [DBS]Th0r's Camera settings, and with smoothing set to 100 instead of his 50, it's playable for me.  Not perfect, but playable.  The key is the INERTIA slider being 0.  It makes total sense now:  the inertia adds movement, and movement induces extra stutter.  Removing all the inertia and smoothing to 100 does a lot.

 

Maybe I'll buy Bodenplatte afterall.  Thanks, [DBS]Th0r!

 

I found a PARTIAL work-around for basic functionality without messing with my TIR settings. It's dumb, but it's sort of like how ROF will pulse the stick and you have to Esc >Responses>Accept to reset the FFB. 

DEVELOPERS: This is more info on what is breaking the feature.

 

If you spawn in with FFB turned on, use the "straight and level" autopilot, then go into options and turn FFB off.  This will fix the Force Feedback levels at whatever is straight and at speed for that aircraft, and there is no stuttering.  The stick wont shake, the FFB won't change as it should at different airspeeds, but you can use the MSFFB2 without it being totally slack.

 

Confirms that this issue absolutely has to do with how the game communicates FFB states to the joystick.  The joystick can have tension on its own, if you trick the game, with no problems.   

 

 

Edited September 8, 2018 by EmerlistDavjack
new info

[ACG_Smokejumper]

Playing with my settings according to new posts.

 

IS it a bug then or a mistake on how we set up?

[[DBS]TH0R]

EmerlistDavjack glad you got it working to some extent. Yeah, smoothing nees to be set to its maximum in order to make FF viable in the sim.

 

13 hours ago, 7./JG26_Smokejumper said:

Playing with my settings according to new posts.

 

IS it a bug then or a mistake on how we set up?

 

To me, it is a bug and an obious one for who ever tried the sim with MSFFB2.

[E_Davjack]

 It's a bug in the same way that both BoX and RoF will make the FFB stick pulse violently sometimes, and the fix is to go into the controls options and back out to reset the FFB.  It's annoying, but fixable. 

 

I was really quite mad about the stutter before I knew there was a settings work-around, but now I'm just glad there is. 

[ACG_Smokejumper]

I spent two hours messing with my settings and while there is still a little lag I have it best I can. This paired with Jason's has me as close to butter as I can get considering the bug. I put the smoothnessm to %100. While there is a slight delay I have my head track profile fairly sensitive so the slight delay doesn't bother me. YEsterday I was having a lot more choppy stutter so a little head input lag (really very slight) is okay.

 

Thanks for the thread OP. Thanks to Jason and his thread below.

 

 

[I/JG2_Saladin]

This bug with the FF2 and Track IR started with ROF and still here...!?

 

I am flying all WW2 sims (IL2 1946, Clodo, DCS...) No Stuttering at all but in ROF and BOS its very frustrating. No body found a definitive solution. 

 

Even when playing without FF the Stuttering is present but less.

[=FCU=PetSild]

During the intense testing of the FFB off, I have to agree that the movement is still not smooth.

[I/JG2_Saladin]

The problem is not so complicated ! The joystick filtering setting affects the Track IR axes. it's so simple as that. I am sure a dev can solve this problem with one or tow lines of code by simply affecting the correct axes to the correct device.

[Kalthios]

This bug has nothing to do with TrackIR. It is the force feedback code causing interference with camera rotation. Load up a mission with TrackIR off, just use the mouse to look around. With Force Feedback enabled looking around has constant stuttering. With Force Feedback disabled looking around is very smooth.

 

It has been 8 months since I was so kind as to isolate the cause of this bug and post the results of my testing here, still not even a response from devs.

[I/JG2_Saladin]

You'r right. TrackIR or not no matters.  Try to change the filtering of the joy and see the effects on view axis !

[Talisman]

I use MSFF2 joystick, JetSeat  FF and FF (vibrating) headset, TIR4 & Track Clip Pro running on V.5 software and I just never have this problem.  Perhaps I am lucky or there is more to this than meets the eye.

I just don't understand the problems that others are reporting in this regard.  Very strange.

Very sorry for people that are finding a problem and hope they can find a solution.

For information, my camera default view is centred quick view and I have smoothness set to 50.  My joystick FF is set to 70% power and 100% shake and noise filter 0.02.

Note that my TIR is version 4, but with V.5 software.

 

Good luck

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

[=FCU=PetSild]

Turn off FFB, and you will be surprised, and then now you add to an insider group.

[Kalthios]

Why is joystick noise filtering effecting the camera movement when the joystick isn't supposed to have anything to do with the camera? Also, with noise filtering at 0, the flight controls are completely smooth, unlike the camera that stutters immensely. Noise filtering to 1 and the camera is smooth but very sluggish. Doesn't matter if trackIR is on or off.

 

Disable force feedback and the camera is silky smooth.

 

Some force feedback function (effect) is stepping on memory used by the camera.

 

It looks as if the camera is only getting input at 1/10th the rate, maybe less, that it gets when force feedback is disabled

Edited October 27, 2018 by Kalthios

[Kalthios]

Spent a few more hours trying to fix this bug.

 

-Tried changing the .ffp files in the input directory, no effect on any force feedback in game.

 

-Looked into gameevents.cfg and found that these are the events that are being effected by the bug:

 

event="BC_HEAD_YAW"
event="BC_HEAD_PITCH"
event="BC_HEAD_ROLL"
event="BC_HEAD_TRANS_X"
event="BC_HEAD_TRANS_Y"
event="BC_HEAD_TRANS_Z"
event="BC_HEAD_ZOOM"

 

-External views and padlocking are unaffected by bug.

 

-Going very fast (over 700 IAS in a Yak-1b) removes the stuttering but when you slow down the stuttering returns. Previous testing has  also shown that airflow over the airplane effects stuttering.

 

-Losing your control surfaces removes the stuttering at all airspeeds. Force feedback is still enabled, can feel the rocking of the guns and cannons firing (dive at 25 degrees nose down until lose of all control surfaces and then cut power to reduce speed).

 

-I do not feel any control surface fluttering through my joystick at any airspeed.

 

In conclusion, there is a control surface flutter force feedback effect that is effecting the pilot's head instead of the joystick.

 

Edited October 28, 2018 by Kalthios

[=FCU=PetSild]

More and more it seems to me that this thread read only users.

[DeadlyMercury]

Wow. Great bug hunting. I hope it will be fixed, but we need to contact devs I guess.

[9./JG52Gruber]

Has there been any comment from devs on this? I recently returned to the game and the bug is very obvious to me with FFB enabled. 

[Kalthios]

I've sent messages to BlackSix. Jason_Williams, Sneaksie, airahusky, Mehovushka, Bearcat, Han, and =38=Tatarenko. Only BlackSix responded, saying he couldn't help though suggested I try Hardware, Software, and Controllers forum and contacting support. I tried both of those avenues: the forum wasn't helpful and I've been in communication with support about once a week. So far support has asked me for some system info files and to confirm that I tested with only mouse, keyboard, and MS FFB2 connected. I sent them the requested files and confirmed that I tested with only the joystick, mouse, and keyboard connected.

 

Here is my most current edited report that I sent to them, feel free to use it if you want to contact the devs:

 

I did some testing in flight:

While parked on the runway with engine off and no wind or turbulence there was no stuttering during head movements.

While parked on the runway with engine off with full wind and turbulence there was significant stuttering during head movements.

While taxiing below 50 KPH without wind or turbulence there is no stuttering during head movements.

While taking off stutter increases with speed from very slight to severe as speed goes from 50 KPH to 150 KPH.

Slow speed flight at 135 to 150 KPH has slightly less stutter.

Enabling Auto-Level(Auto-Pilot) while in flight eliminates the stutter.

Going very fast (over 700 IAS in a Yak-1b) removes the stuttering but when you slow down the stuttering returns.

Losing your control surfaces removes the stuttering at all airspeeds.

 

Testing in game settings:

Disabling Force Feedback stops the stuttering.

Shaking and Feedback Power have no effect on stuttering.

Pitch and Roll deadzones have no effect on stuttering, nor does sensitivity.

Unbinding pitch and roll has no effect on stuttering.

Smoothing reduces stuttering while increasing latency of head motion latency.

Increasing Joystick Noise Filtering decreases stuttering while increasing head motion latency.

 

Removed all USB devices except keyboard, mouse, and joystick, restarted system

Stuttering was still present.

 

Looked into gameevents.cfg and found that these are the events that are being effected by the bug:

event="BC_HEAD_YAW"

event="BC_HEAD_PITCH"
event="BC_HEAD_ROLL"
event="BC_HEAD_TRANS_X"
event="BC_HEAD_TRANS_Y"
event="BC_HEAD_TRANS_Z"
event="BC_HEAD_ZOOM"

 

Tried editing the files in the input folder:

No effect on stuttering. None of the ffp or config files seem to be read at runtime. 

Edited November 11, 2018 by Kalthios

[I/JG2_Saladin]

I will say like Michael Jackson : "they don't care about us..."

I returned to fly the only true IL2 : hundreds of planes and maps for free and no bugs ?

 

 

[ema33ig]

Good Job, Kalthios!

[Kalthios]

Just received this email from support:

 

"Hi,

 

We have not been able to repeat this situation. Perhaps there are any additional conditions for its occurrence?"

 

I don't know what to write back to them, but responded with this:

 

"Perhaps there are other conditions. I don't see how anything related to my system could be causing such an explicitly gameplay related bug: during regular flight the stuttering is there but when force feedback is disabled,  or autopilot is on, control surfaces have been ripped off, or while parked without wind, the stuttering is gone. 

 

Could there be a game version difference: localization issue or that I am running a steam version while you are running an in-house build?  

Are we using the same forcefeedback driver? Mine is C:\Windows\System32\pid.dll; file/product version 10.0.17134.1, 44.5 KB? 

Are we not using the same MS FFB2? Mine has a VID of 0x045E and a PID of 0x001B.

 

Or possibly I am overthinking and your testing had smoothing or noise filtering up instead of at 0, or was somehow otherwise inconsistent with my testing?"

Edited November 19, 2018 by Kalthios

[13Nrv]

Hi Kalthios ,

i m running an inhouse build , on a windows 10 X64 pro OS , a "green" FFB2 and i' m encountering the same stuttering since 2 years and an update i do not remember the exact number.

I' ve got 2 Ms FFB2 both are "green light  "version and the problem is the same with both of them ...

...i know some of us with the exactly same systems doesn t encounter any stutt ...it' s ...strange ...

As already wrote , the smoothing trick is a walkaround , it s just a walkaround to play but far from a real solution ...at least i can play the game, but disabling ffb and the difference just jump at my face ...

Dunno what to say , may be sending  my system to them ?....or may be we both go for a ride to 1C with our systems in our luggages ^^

 

Edited November 20, 2018 by 13Nrv

[=FCU=PetSild]

Each Windows has a different version of this library. I can confirm that the problems have all friends on W7, W8.1 and W10 on both MSFFB2 variations.

[I/JG2_Saladin]

+1

3.007  nothing new     very disappointing

[ema33ig]

Hi, Guys,

 

maybe some people do not notice the stuttering? Kalthios, did the guys use a FFB2 ???

[Kalthios]

I don't know ema33ig, still waiting on a response from Support. 

[sniperton]

On 11/20/2018 at 11:28 AM, 13Nrv said:

...i know some of us with the exactly same systems doesn t encounter any stutt ...it' s ...strange ...

I'm not affected, but my system is not exactly the same. Dunno if it helps, but here are the differences:

1. I don't have TrackIR, I use a DIY cap with a PS3 cam and OpenTrack.

2. Having a budget GPU with a cheap display, I have set the same 60 Hz/FPS for both TIR and game.

3. MSFFB2 is not directly bound to the game, but through vJoy (combined with a HOTAS into one virtual joystick).

Any of the three can make a difference: OpenTrack (vs. TrackIR software), equal refresh rates, and hardware input filtered through a virtual device.

Anyway, I cross my fingers for you.

Edited November 24, 2018 by sniperton
Mistake in my initial statement: FFB axes (X and Y) are bound directly

[I/JG2_Saladin]

Do you still have the FF with Vjoy ?

 

[sniperton]

2 hours ago, I/JG2_Saladin said:

Do you still have the FF with Vjoy ?

Yes, that's the point, it's possible to have FF via vJoy.

[13Nrv]

Hi sniperton

 

"Anyway, I cross my fingers for you."

 

Well the game is still highly playable with the smoothness 100 and tricking my Tir profile and ingame cam settings , i still play it , and i ve no more stuttering , the point is , that head movements are not as fluid as they were , and as they are as soon as i disable the Ffb ... but it doesnt prevent me from playing !

 

I will try "vjoy",  just to see if it change something or not ....who knows ?...

The really astonishing thing is that it used to work perfectly , "as is" ,  with my system , stutters arrived right with one of the patches , dont remember his number , it was two years ago , as soon as the update was installed stutter has arrived ...

 

There s also a strange thing ... when i deselect the "head shaking" in the camera settings ingame , the strength and the effects of the force feedback are WAY weaker , almost no effects and low forces ...

 

It sounds like there s a lot of interferences between a lot of things (track ir , cam settings, Ffb, wind ... ) when we are talking about the ffb ...but well it s an other subject , let s keep focus on the original one , and thanks for fingers cross

Edited November 23, 2018 by 13Nrv

[=FCU=PetSild]

A year ago I experimented with Vjoy and internal functions of the ffb. After the remapping is a virtual device Bos is detected as a lever without the support of the ffb.

What I remember even the force of the centering doesn't work.

[sniperton]

1 hour ago, =FCU=PetSild said:

A year ago I experimented with Vjoy and internal functions of the ffb. After the remapping is a virtual device Bos is detected as a lever without the support of the ffb.

What I remember even the force of the centering doesn't work.

Strange. I have vJoy v2.1.6 with UJR v6.10 (ADHD v3.3.4) in Win10 Pro 64, and it works fine for me with centering forces. (The tricky part is that after creating the virtual device you have to re-bind all axes ingame, else you won't have the correct axes assigned.)

[=FCU=PetSild]

When are the ffb effects vjoy off, the joystick can center, but as I turn on Bos effects ignores.
If somewhere I am doing mistake, can you please make a few images or short video of your settings, thank you very much.

[I/JG2_Saladin]

The trick of the 100% smoothness is a joke...

I am flying IL 2 1946, Clod and DCS and the head movements are perfectly smooth ! so i expect no less then that in BOS (200€)  

I  am sure that this bug can be solved by re-affecting the correct axes to the correct device. 

 

[sniperton]

4 hours ago, =FCU=PetSild said:

When are the ffb effects vjoy off, the joystick can center, but as I turn on Bos effects ignores.
If somewhere I am doing mistake, can you please make a few images or short video of your settings, thank you very much.

@13Nrv

Sorry, I made a mistake, it was a long ago that I set up my system.

Although FFB is enabled in vJoy, X and Y axes are still accessed directly by the game.

That is, I have FFB effects ingame not through vJoy. I'm very sorry for my false statement.

 

So it seems that a directly bound MSFFB2 is not a problem per se. The conflict may reside between TrackIR software and FFB as used by the game.

[Kalthios]

Support responded with "We used different game settings."

[Letka_13/Kami-]

I am yet another one dealing with this problem... Purchased BoS on friday,  installed it, connected MSWFF2 and TrackIr4 and the first thing I got to experience is this stutter that makes the game unplayable...However, more disappointing than my first experience was the realization that this bug was reported on February 6th and it is still here in November??? Big respect for Kalthios for the work and dedication in this matter. 

[Kalthios]

I tried disabling all start-up applications, all non-Microsoft services, and downloading and running the game with the IL-2 Launcher. Still had stuttering.

 

The stuttering is a little subtle when looking with the mouse, but is definitely apparent when you cycle force feedback on and off. You can't miss it if you use head tracking.

 

HF_Kami,

 

Putting the Camera Smoothing to 100 can hide the stuttering, and works fine when just cruising around. Unfortunately it makes dogfighting very difficult with the laggy head-motion it causes.

Edited November 26, 2018 by Kalthios

[[DBS]TH0R]

1 hour ago, Kalthios said:

Putting the Camera Smoothing to 100 can hide the stuttering, and works fine when just cruising around. Unfortunately it makes dogfighting very difficult with the laggy head-motion it causes.

 

You can offset this, to a good extent, with TiR profile modification.

 

(Speed and Smooth settings, under motion control - sliders)

Edited November 26, 2018 by [DBS]TH0R