Jump to content
Kalthios

Force Feedback Induced Camera Movement Stutter

Recommended Posts

With force feedback enabled stuttering occurs when the camera is panned or translated. 


 


I did some testing in flight with trackIR and force feedback enabled:


When parked and taxiing below 50 KPH there is no stutter.


​While taking off stutter increases with speed from very slight to severe as speed goes from 50 KPH to 150 KPH.


​Slow speed flight at 135 to 150 KPH has slightly less stutter.


​Enabling Auto-Level while in flight eliminates the stutter.


 


Tried editing the files in the input folder:


No effect on stuttering.


 


​Testing in game settings:


Disabling Force Feedback stops the stuttering.


Noise filtering is inversely proportional to amount of stuttering. Increasing Noise Filtering dramatically increases camera transform latency.


Shaking and Feedback Power have no effect on stuttering.


Pitch and Roll deadzones have no effect on stuttering, nor does sensitivity. Unbinding pitch and roll has no effect on stuttering.


 


​Testing panning with mouse (trackIR executable closed):


No effect on stuttering. Stuttering occurs without the use of trackIR.


 


​My hypothesis as to the cause of the stuttering:


 


Frame render time is not observably effected by force feedback. The stutter is in the camera's rotation and translation while force feedback is enabled.


A force feedback effect that intensifies as airspeed increases is being blended with the camera transform event.

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Removed all USB devices except keyboard, mouse, and joystick, restarted system. No TrackIR software running. Stuttering was still present.

 

Not all force feedback effects are disabled when auto-level is enabled: the joystick still has a centering force feedback effect. Also, there is no stuttering while the plane is parked or taxiing below 50 KPH and the stuttering gradually increases as airspeed increases. Therefore I believe the force feedback effect that simulates airflow disturbing the control surfaces is being blended with the camera transform event. ​An experiment that may verify this is to fly the aircraft with turbulence and without, and notice if there is more stuttering during camera transforms. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tested if Wind and Turbulence Caused Force Feedback to Induce Camera Transformation Stutter:

While parked on the runway with engine off and no wind or turbulence there was no stuttering during camera transforms.

While parked on the runway with engine off with full wind and turbulence there was significant stuttering during camera transforms.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

​Tested for Similar Behavior in Cliffs of Dover Blitz:

While not as severe as in BoX, the stuttering of camera movement was observed and appears to be caused by the same issue, e.g., no stutter while parked or with auto-pilot on. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tested for Camera Stutter in Microsoft Flight Simulator X:

There wasn't any stuttering, looking around was completely smooth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

With force feedback enabled stuttering occurs when the camera is panned or translated. 

 

I did some testing in flight with trackIR and force feedback enabled:

When parked and taxiing below 50 KPH there is no stutter.

​While taking off stutter increases with speed from very slight to severe as speed goes from 50 KPH to 150 KPH.

​Slow speed flight at 135 to 150 KPH has slightly less stutter.

​Enabling Auto-Level while in flight eliminates the stutter.

 

Tried editing the files in the input folder:

No effect on stuttering.

 

​Testing in game settings:

Disabling Force Feedback stops the stuttering.

Noise filtering is inversely proportional to amount of stuttering. Increasing Noise Filtering dramatically increases camera transform latency.

Shaking and Feedback Power have no effect on stuttering.

Pitch and Roll deadzones have no effect on stuttering, nor does sensitivity. Unbinding pitch and roll has no effect on stuttering.

 

​Testing panning with mouse (trackIR executable closed):

No effect on stuttering. Stuttering occurs without the use of trackIR.

 

​My hypothesis as to the cause of the stuttering:

 

Frame render time is not observably effected by force feedback. The stutter is in the camera's rotation and translation while force feedback is enabled.

A force feedback effect that intensifies as airspeed increases is being blended with the camera transform event.

 

 

 

Interesting find. Would be good if you could run one sample mission and record your finding with nvidia shadowplay or something of the likes. The Devs have little time, so you need to show exactly the problem. Its a problem  that most people do not have.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a known issue that is affecting all users with force feedback (at least us plebs that can't afford VR). It's a frustrating problem that needs to be fixed and so I spent the time to assess and submit the best bug report on the issue as possible. The work around of ramping up the controller lag, i.e., camera smoothing or noise filtering the TrackIR, to an entire two second delay is not playable (in no game is such controller lag acceptable). Excellent vision is one of the most important assets to any pilot, especially a WW2 fighter pilot. 

 

I understand they are currently developing the huge Update 3.001, but it would be great if they could work a fix in for this long standing issue. I've done all I think I can without being able read the source files for force feedback and the camera.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the important findings Kalthios.

Because of the serious limitations, it's been over one year since BOS can't play with the support of the ffb. All current and future titles suffer from a stutter defect, something bad is for something good, thanks to this I'll save a bundle of money, just bothers me that I lose future Flyng Circus.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're welcome, PetSild.

I wish this camera/ffb crosstalk issue would be fixed so I could play this game as well. Was looking forward to buying more expansions to play, but unfortunately it is unplayable until this is resolved.

3.002 came out so I loaded up BoS. I was really hoping the camera stutter had been fixed, but it unfortunately has not been. 
:cray::( :cray::unsure::cray::mda::cray::sorry::cray::fool::cray:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello Kalthios,

 

I've been suffering from this terrible affliction as well, ever since the days of Rise of Flight.

 

I find the following steps help to mostly resolve the issue:

 

  • In the game launcher: 
    Settings > ☐ Fullscreen mode (unchecked)
     
  • In-game:
    Settings > Input Devices > Noise filter 0 (slider all the way to the left)
    Settings > Cameras > Smoothness 100 (slider all the way to the right)


Could you try this out and report your findings?

 

If it doesn't alleviate the problem, please also post your full system specs and whether or not you use TrackIR.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Hellbender,

Using Smoothness removes the stuttering by recording camera translation inputs over-time and then averaging them. The longer the sample time, the smoother the camera movement, but also increases camera movement lag.

 

Tested for force feedback induced camera stutter in IL-2: 1946:

There was no camera stutter.

Edited by Kalthios

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is an ancient bug that dates back to Cliffs of Dover, it is not present in 1946. Devs please use my testing to fix this bug. Would be nice to finally be able to play this game I bought from them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Long time waiting a fix for this bug.  Stutter completely ruin my joy of playing the whole franchise. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Four more days and it will be five months since I diagnosed the cause of this bug. You can do it 1C, squash that bug, I believe in you!

Edited by Kalthios

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, any update for the stutter issue would be appreciated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I found that using track-ir with optimizations like triple-buffering induces some extra stutters (adds extra delays?).  It helped turning this off in the nvidia control panel.  Using SLI also causes this for me.  

I'm getting a bit smoother picture as i pan around without these.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you, Kalthios. I'd given up on ffb for this, it's great to see someone pursuing it 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,

I'm also encountering this problem - MS FFB 2 + TrackIR = Stuttering while moving the head. it's true that the Joystick Filter/Camera Smoothness reduces the stuttering, but induce a terrible head movement delay, so this problem prevents me from playing IL-2 BoX, which is very pity, because it's a great sim, i bought all of the modules including the very early access of BoS and ROF and i want to play it very much, so it's very frustrating. i hope it will be fixed soon, thanks and i really appreciate your work.

  • Like 2
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello,

 

This is my first post but this bug is so annoying that I also request the help of developpers. I have a good rig (I7 950 @4 GHZ, 12 Go RAM, 1080TI). All my sims run very smooth at max setting except IL2. I have test all settings (camera, joystick filter, nvidia settings, IL2 graphic settings ...etc). I even test all optimization advices from LEMON (HPET on/off, graphic card in MSI mode, timer tool to reduce latency...). Optimisations reduce a little micro stutter but it does not remove it. I have the G940 (stick throtlle and pedal).

We really need the help of these talentuous developpers (Yes, this game is wonderfull!!!!!) to really squash this bug.

Please Devs... make another miracle!!!

 

Sorry for my bad english...and congratulations for the best WW2 flight sim I have ever play... and good luck for the russian football team.

 

Merci par avance

Bonne soirée

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dear pilots,

 

After hours of test, setup on my computer,   I have recently found something which greatly improved fluidity and mostly removed microstutter.  I used Rtss (RIVATUNER STATISTIC SERVER) and set frame limiter to 45 / 50 fps and deactivate sync in game. As mentioned in my previous post, I also applied LEMON advices (msi mode for graphic card, hpet off, low latency,  

 

Try it, may be it will solved this very unconfortable microstutter on your rig.

 

Hope this helps community 

Regards 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for trying to help, AFsparrow1968. You've put more effort into trying to fix this bug than the developers have. Unfortunately all we we can do is cause lots of latency to mask the stuttering. The problem is that there is a bug in their code that is routing a forcefeedback effect of wind moving across control surfaces to the camera. Until the devs open the relevant source file and find the line with the mistake in their code this problem will remain.

Edited by Kalthios

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I almost fight gave up on, but locating defects Kalthios and a large community FFB2 must with this mistake move.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Totally agree kaltios. Hope one Day developers Will address this serions bug. Even with all tricks and settings from community, it only mask source code issues. 

Offline,  I am able to hide most of these microstutter but when playing in multiplayer,  then it is impossible to fly without microstutter whatever computer and in game settings I  use. Maybe some netcode bugs added to force feedback issues amplify stutter phenomenon. 

As previously said, this simulator is a goldmine.!!!!!!!!!

Hope Jason and all talentuous Russian programmers will patch the game in this way.

Bonne journée à tous 

Home alto France Will win football world cpu. 

I cross my fingers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Same problem in VR, Stutter without end when you fly closer to the ground or turns. No reaction from developers, very frustrating ):

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Boooooooo!!!!!

 

This thread made me notice it and test it. It's true....

 

Love the game 777 and IC enough to make the move from Cliffs. If this could be looked at I would appreciate it. When we move to VR is it still there? Any VR users see this?

 

I imagine it would make one Yak.     :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just got the early access for FC and I am extremely disappointed that such a seriously game-breaking and easily demonstrated bug.

 

Excellent work, Kalthios.  You have told them all they need to know.  It seems like it should be an EASY fix, right?  Maybe even with an option that disables the shaking functionality at the source for those of us who don't care about bumpy take-offs or cannon shake.  You can't even feel the broken shake mechanic during flight, so this camera stutter is caused by something that is imperceptible.  Just turn it off, Devs!

 

I am going to be requesting a refund.  Whether or not they give it to me...who knows.  If they do fix the bug, I'd buy the game again at full price and they can make another $20 off me, but I don't feel good about giving money to a flight sim that can't use force feedback correctly.  That's day 1 stuff, guys. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I used to use MSFF2 for 5 years  and my 2 teammates are still using MSFF2 joystick and they say is not that terrible as you say - game breaking.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have you used the MSFF2 in IL2:BoX/FC?  It is fine if you want to play a beautifully rendered flight sim while having your view stutter around like it has 5degree detentes.  It's jarring, ugly, immersion breaking.  Not unplayable technically, but completely broken and inexcusable for 2018.  The workarounds are not good enough. 

 

Your friends must really, really love WWII aviation to put up with it. 

 

Edited by EmerlistDavjack
reasons

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course I used to use MSFF2 in IL 2:BoX/FC and I do notice slight degradation of fluidity ( but never game breaking) during head movement  , witch I have reported to devs years ago. My teammates are using MSFF2 & TrackIR and never complain  and they are doing fine in online dogfights. BTW I have 3 MSFFB joystick.

Edited by 307_Tomcat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I will say that I do not use any "helpers" with my TrackIr.  I don't bind any keys to "snap to gunsight" or some nonsense like that.  When I am playing RoF, I am moving my head to line up the sights in the game and make the shot.  Does it take more effort?  Yeah.  But it feels rewarding and it feels fluid.

 

In this game, it is not fluid.  I cannot position myself behind the sight fluidly because of the stutter. It's bad.  It isn't up to the quality standards of the rest of the game. (4k COCKPITS, VR SUPPORT!)

Edited by EmerlistDavjack
reasons

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

+1 who would like to see this fixed.

 

For a brief period I used MSFFB2 a while a go, and initially the game was unplayable since I use low smoothness in the camera settings. Since then I've re-done my TiR settings. Increasing smoothness or filtering makes for an easier viewing and also helps with spotting targets I've found.

 

 

Camera_Smoothness.jpg

Edited by [DBS]TH0R

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Found my ancient msffb2 in the basement and it still works surprisingly. Bad stutter though. Tried a bunch of things that made it slightly better, but I can't play like that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...