DB 605A-1 1.42 ata (WEP) duration

[JG7_X-Man]

Hey guys can we add this to the list of things that need to be fixed please?

I hear this talk about wanting to be realistic is the reason why we don't have drop tanks - OK. Let's get aircraft that perform like they should ACCORDING TO THEIR MANUAL!

[the_emperor]

Needs to be corrected since 2018. 

But thus far it has not even been reviewed. No explanation why the 1min in the first place or notification to get this reviewed. 
though this should be an easier fix since we have a very simple engine modelling and the value should be changeable from 1 to 3.

(At least easier than DM or 3d changes/fixes) 

Edited January 28, 2023 by the_emperor

[MisterSmith]

You are free to discuss specifications in this thread and where you believe errors have been made. Though, submitting an actual report with original documentation in the manner specified by the Devs is the only way to expect any type of review/changes. Claims of bias and balancing is prohibited per the forum rules.

 

Smith

[the_emperor]

Dear @MisterSmith documention has been brought up. here are just a few quick examples from the recent posts:

for either no time limit on Start&Notleistung here:

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/33381-db-605a-1-142-ata-wep-duration/?do=findComment&comment=1139474

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/33381-db-605a-1-142-ata-wep-duration/?do=findComment&comment=1139474

 

 

and for the more reasonable 3min:

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/33381-db-605a-1-142-ata-wep-duration/?do=findComment&comment=1193756

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/33381-db-605a-1-142-ata-wep-duration/?do=findComment&comment=1193766

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/33381-db-605a-1-142-ata-wep-duration/?do=findComment&comment=1195260

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/33381-db-605a-1-142-ata-wep-duration/?do=findComment&comment=1202611

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/33381-db-605a-1-142-ata-wep-duration/?do=findComment&comment=1210308

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/33381-db-605a-1-142-ata-wep-duration/?do=findComment&comment=1200972

 

 

Thus far no document has been found, that supports the current 1min limit for the DB605a with unlocked Start&Notleistung

[JtD]

It's a bit difficult to send in evidence of something that doesn't exist.

[MisterSmith]

The emphasis of my post is the last sentence. “Claims of bias and balancing are prohibited per the forum rules.”

 

Carry on…..

 

 

[Roland_HUNter]

4 hours ago, MisterSmith said:

The emphasis of my post is the last sentence. “Claims of bias and balancing are prohibited per the forum rules.”

 

Carry on…..

 

 

The documents are visible and their source is indicated.
And to clarify, it was not taken from the amusing title "how to tune your bf-109", but from military documents.
As for the dashboard pics: that's why random pilots won't risk their own lives to draw the red line for 3 minutes....

[the_emperor]

I did hand in a bug/issue report 

will that help to get this reviewed?

[Roland_HUNter]

5 hours ago, the_emperor said:

I did hand in a bug/issue report 

will that help to get this reviewed?

Not showing that comment when I click on it.

[the_emperor]

Starting with the He-177 which also did make use of the DB 605a but famously decreased its reliability by coupling them together to the DB610 engine, but even then it was rated for 3min for Start&Notelistung:

 

He-177 instrument panel with markings for Dauer- (2300/1.15), Steig&Kampf- (2600/1.3) and Start&Notleistung (2800/1.42)

Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum, NASM Original Photography, NASM Acc. 2012-0026.

Inventory Number A19602719000

https://airandspace.si.edu/collection-objects/instrument-panel-heinkel-he-177-righthand-console-engine-instruments/nasm_A19602719000

 

From He 177 A-3 Flugzeug Handbuch Teil 7 Triebwerksanlage (p. 13, August 1943):

 

Heinkel He 177 A-5 Flugzeughandbuch April 1944

 

From Vorlaufige Flugstrecke He 177 A-3/R2 (November 1943, p. 5):

 

 

He 177 Exerzierkarte

 

 

 

 

Now for the DB605a in the 109G here is the main scource, time frame and photographically evidences that it was applied:

 

From @VO101Kurfurst:

 

'Bisher gesperrte Start- und Notleistung DB 605 kann nach Durchführung des Einfliegens von 10 Stunden entsprechend TAGTTIC 6., Nr. *, lfd. Nr. 705/43, entnommen ist jedoch nur in äussersten Notfällen und keinesfalls länger als drei Minuten zu entnehmen. Voraussetzung ist Vorhandensein des Überdruckventilles auf Schmierstofftank / Aenderung Bf 109G, Nr. 297. Drahtzug für Start- und Notleistung am Ladedruckregler ist einzuhängen und nötigenfalls Ladedruckregler auf 1,42 ata einzuregulieren. [...] Auf Ladedruck- und Drehzahlmesser sind für Notleistung die entsprechende Markierungen anzubringen. Zum Einstellen möglichts Spezialisten heranziehen. F.S. Gen. TT, Abt. G, vom 28.5.1943. betr. Start- und Notleistung DB 605 in Bf 109G is ausser Kraft gesetzt und zu vernichten.'

 

TMGL Nr. 44 07 019 vom 14.3.1944., S. 49.,

BArch RL 3/1293.

Via M. Baumgartl.

 

Previously restricted takeoff and emergency power DB 605 can be utilized after completing a run-in of 10 hours according to TAGTTIC 6., No. *, consecutive [lfd. meaning laufend] No. 705/43. However, it should only be taken in extreme emergencies and under no circumstances for longer than three minutes. A prerequisite is the presence of the pressure relief valve on the lubricant tank / Modification Bf 109G, No. 297. The wire rope for takeoff and emergency power on the throttle lever is to be hooked in and if necessary the throttle lever is to be set to 1.42 ata. [...] Markings corresponding to emergency power are to be applied to the boost and RPM indicators. For adjustment, consult specialists if possible. F.S. Gen. TT, Dept. G, dated May 28, 1943, regarding takeoff and emergency power DB 605 in Bf 109G is hereby revoked and to be destroyed

 

 

Installation of the "Überdruckventil " Modification No. 297 to individual (and maybe factory new) aircraft began in March 1943, hence why the 3min marking already appears in the G-5/6 manual but there there is still the universal ban in place (see April 43 Bedienvorschrift Fl vor Bf 109 G2/4/6)  but by August 43 all manuals for the standard fighter variants have a clearing for Start&Notleistung. 

 

From BF 109 G-5 und G-6 Schusswaffenanlage Bedienvorschrift-Wa (March/April of 1943)

Showing the markings on the tachometer, this is probably one of the erliest showing of this markings, but its matching the 1943 picture from the Bundesarchiv both sporting an earlier version of the MAP gauge. 
this matches the time frame of the start of the installation of the Uberdruckventil for the use of WEP.

 

Squadron Signal Publications 5543 Walk Around Messerschmitt BF109G Number 43

 

 

 

 

Aero Detail 5 Messerschmitt BF109G p.64

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Manuals Start&Notleistung cleared for G-3, G-4 &G-5 by August 1943

 

 

From D. (Luft) T. 2109 G-5 Teil 8D Sonderwaffenanlage:

Heft 1: 21 cm BR (state of Mai 1944) Issue July 1944 p.10

d (dauernd - continuous) -> 2300 rpm

30                                  -> 2600rpm

3                                    -> 2800rpm 

 

 

 

 

 

https://airandspace.si.edu/collection-objects/tachometer-german-fl-20286/nasm_A19600646000

 

 

 

Though from an F-Version, it also shows the 3min markings

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Video of captured Bf 109 G-6 showing the markings on the tachometer (dauern 2300/ 30min 2600/ 3min 2800)

Bf 109G6 3.JG4 Yellow 4 Rene Darbois Stkz KT+LL WNr 160756 Italy 1944 06

 

 

Edited June 15, 2024 by the_emperor

[the_emperor]

Start&Notleistung cleared for G-5 by August/September 1943

[Roland_HUNter]

10 hours ago, the_emperor said:

Start&Notleistung cleared for G-5 by August/September 1943

No engine times?

[the_emperor]

11 hours ago, Roland_HUNter said:

No engine times?

 

No, I guess by game logic that means unlimited use XD

But to be serious, this is more to determine the time frame when Start&Notleistung was usable.

and there where pictures posted that fit the time frame with the 3min markings on the gauges. so starting with late Summer early autumn  the DB605a seems to operational to us the Start&Notleistung.

and the manuals for the He-177 also allow the use of the 3min Start&Notleistung for the DB610 starting in late summer/autumn 1943.

So, I actually dont now, why the 1min time limit is still in place, as there are no evidences that this ever existed with a Start&Notleistung cleared.

That error will be inherited to the DB605AS when it arrives and the Me-410 with the DB603 seems to have the same issue.

Edited April 12, 2023 by the_emperor

[the_emperor]

Video of captured Bf 109 G-6 showing the markings on the tachometer (dauern 2300/ 30min 2600/ 3min 2800)

 

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by the_emperor

[the_emperor]

Though from an F-Version, it also shows the 3min markings

 

Squadron Signal Publications 10243

Edited May 24, 2023 by the_emperor

[the_emperor]

From BF 109 G-5 und G-6 Schusswaffenanlage Bedienvorschrift-Wa (March/April of 1943)

Showing the markings on the tachometer, this is probably one of the erliest showing of this markings, but its matching the 1943 picture from the Bundesarchiv both sporting an earlier version of the MAP gauge:

 

[the_emperor]

He 177 Exerzierkarte

 

 

[the_emperor]

Heinkel He 177 A-5 Flugzeughandbuch April 1944

 

 

[Roland_HUNter]

5 hours ago, the_emperor said:

Heinkel He 177 A-5 Flugzeughandbuch April 1944

 

 

In the start and emergency mode, the gas lift setting is increased to 110%, which may only be used for a short time, and the boost pressure is increased?

[the_emperor]

@Roland_HUNter

Yes, very loosely translated "for Start&Notleistung the throttle is set to 110%, which may be used only for a short period, for increased boost pressure"

the point I am trying to make here is, that the He-177 uses essentially the DB605a engine with cleared Start&Notleistung, and is allowed to use that regime for a short period aka 3 minutes (in other He 177 Manuals)..those 3min markings are also shown on rpm/MAP gauges on 109s...

therefore the current 1min Start&Notleistung is not correct as no manual/source for a cleared DB605a shows us the 1min limit.

It should either be

Start&Notleistung blocked

or

Start&Notleistung cleared for 3min.

 

[Yogiflight]

A bit off topic, but as I lately started a 109 career on the Kuban map, I wondered if it is correct, that in the G2 you are at 2000 RPM, when using 0.6 ATA, while in the G4 you are at 1900 RPM and at 1.0 ATA you are getting 2250 RPM in the G2 and 2200 RPM in the G4. At Nominal power, both have 2300 RPM at 1.15 ATA and at maximum climb and combat power with 1.3 ATA they both are at 2600 RPM.

Did they use different chargers?

[the_emperor]

rpm/MAP correlation should be :

2800/1.42 take off/emergency power

2600/1.3 climb/combat

2300/1.15 continuous

2100/1.0 continuous  fuel saving 

though I think at 2100rpm the the MAP setting is lower than 1.0ata...which has been wrong in all DB605 variants since ever

 

the rpm setting is your first reverence point, followed by the MAP setting 

[the_emperor]

[the_emperor]

 

 

[kraut1]

On 11/20/2023 at 10:44 PM, the_emperor said:

rpm/MAP correlation should be :

2800/1.42 take off/emergency power

2600/1.3 climb/combat

2300/1.15 continuous

2100/1.0 continuous  fuel saving 

though I think at 2100rpm the the MAP setting is lower than 1.0ata...which has been wrong in all DB605 variants since ever

 

the rpm setting is your first reverence point, followed by the MAP setting 

Maybe for 2100/1.0 fuel saving manual propeller pitch controll to be used?

[the_emperor]

35 minutes ago, kraut1 said:

Maybe for 2100/1.0 fuel saving manual propeller pitch controll to be used?

No, during flight manual prop pitch was disabled. Only be used in emergency/damage situations

[kraut1]

4 hours ago, the_emperor said:

No, during flight manual prop pitch was disabled. Only be used in emergency/damage situations

Hi the_emperor,

Okay, I have only some average knowledge concerning the BF109G2.

But because it is interesting for me I just had a look in the internet and on this page:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/me109/Bf-109-G-2-mit-Motor-DB-605-Bedienungsvorschrift-Fl-Bedienung-und-Wartung-des-Flugzeugs.pdf

I found an interesting german manual for the G2.

(General RPM / MAP combinations as listed by you)

(table of content:)

3.) Usage of the "Propeller Unit"

 

On page 15 (pdf page 21) there are some instructions concerning the Luftschraubenanlage (means about "Propeller Unit")

Short simplified translation:

3.) Usage of the "Propeller Unit" (Luftschraubenanlage)

1.) In general fly with activated automatic propeller controll (as you said)

2.) Attention be careful: when beginning a sudden dive by pushing the stick forward and fast moving the throttle lever forward the engine revolutions will exceed the maximum allowed limits.

3.) When gliding with engine "idle" below 200km/h the automatic to be deactivated and to be cared that the End-limit not to be exceeded.

(see 5.: max allowed 12:00 not 12:30!)

4.) With deactivated Automatic (Manual Controll with Thumb switch") to be flown:

-(Fuel) save flight (Sparflug) (for long range, patrolling over area (Sperre)) by exactly manually adjusting RPM and MAP according to the "Range tables" ;

before diving automatic to be activated 

5.) When flying with manual controll the pilot has to care for that the propeller is not to be adjusted more than 12:00, because the limit is at 12:30

Propeller pitch to be adjusted manually to meet the officially defined values for RPM / MAP.

 

This translation is not perfect. I am a german native speaker and I have knowledge in Mechanical Engineering and in Aviation. But in these ca. 80 years old manuals   some old fashioned wordings are used that I understand only partly. But concerning automatic/manual propeller controll from my point of view no doubts.

 

Note: for me very interesting to care for max. 12:00 (and not 12:30!) to be used manually, because I sometime take off, land and taxy with manual propeller controll

Edited December 14, 2023 by kraut1
word Boost replaced by MAP

[the_emperor]

Looks right.

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[the_emperor]

USAAF intelligence report also lists a 3min time limit, in this case for the DB601E (F-4) and attributes the 1min to Take off:

[the_emperor]

[the_emperor]

 

Edited January 8, 2024 by the_emperor

[Roland_HUNter]

F-2 boosted, F-4, G-2, G-4s are would be beasts with 3 min 1.42 ata.
Even G-6 would be much better, but I think it's still losing too much speed in maneuver fights, compared to others. I guess it has the same problem as the P-47s.

[the_emperor]

F-4 should certainly be a very worthy oppenent with 3min WEP.

G-2s should be as they are with the blocked Start&Notleistung. By 1943 most G-2 where in the G-4 standard and the tailwheel was fixed.

 

[Roland_HUNter]

https://me109.info/display.php?from=site&lang=de&auth=e&name=version_display&fotonummer=8903

[the_emperor]

finally fixed 👍

[MK_RED13]

Big thanks for you!!! the_emperor

[FeuerFliegen]

On 11/19/2024 at 2:32 PM, the_emperor said:

finally fixed 👍

 

 

Mostly; we still need it on G-6 Late Non-MW50, and Bf110 G-2.

[the_emperor]

5 hours ago, FeuerFliegen said:

we still need it on G-6 Late Non-MW50

 

I did not check on that one, but the late G-6 should then have the 3min by default?

 

 

 

[FeuerFliegen]

1 minute ago, the_emperor said:

 

I did not check on that one, but the late G-6 should then have the 3min by default?

 

 

 

 

 

It does not; without MW-50, it has the exact same engine as a G-4/G-6 and has a 1 minute timer.

[the_emperor]

Bummer..but Maybe that one will come later. Same for the AS Version?

but the 3min limit makes the G-4/6 now really competitive.

I managed to climb both to ~4000m in 3min which makes for a whooping ~22m/s (4300feet/min) climb speed (tested on Kuban Autumn)