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DB 605A-1 1.42 ata (WEP) duration


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The following is from the DB 605A-1 Repair Manual, which details the run-in procedure for the engine. 

 

Take note that 1.42 ata / 2800 rpm rating is to be used twice in the run-in procedure for 5-minutes, therefore it appears that the limitation on using the WEP for only 1 minutes of time would be incorrect.

 

post-1271-0-69425000-1515065454_thumb.jpg

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June '42 Bf 109 G-2 manual mention a ban on the 1,42 ata setting.

 

August '43 Bf 109 G-2, G-3 and G-4 manuals (Flugzeug Handbuch) mention the 1,42 ata power setting cleared for use. No time limit is anywhere to be found in the manuals.

 

My understanding is that the 1,42 ata setting was cleared, then banned, before finally being cleared again between 1942 and 1943. There is no mention of a time restriction in the manuals with the cleared setting.

Edits: clarity

Edited by EC5/25_Corsair
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In terms of time limits - still the same as years ago: Nothing.

 

Wait, there's no actual known source for the 1 minute thing yet nobody ever brought this up in any of the recent threads?

 

Not saying it still can't be the case, but this seems like a much better avenue to go down.

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It has actually been brought up a couple of times before.

 

Since they couldn't find the time limit for the DB 605 in the Bf 109, they took the 1 min time limit from the Bf 110 G-2.

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Since they couldn't find the time limit for the DB 605 in the Bf 109

 

..what if there isn't ?

 

@

Yes, but this document also mentions a pure ban of the 1,42 ata setting (see note below table). It is inconsistent with other mid-late '43 Bf 109 G manuals, showing (1) no ban of the 1,42 ata setting, (2) no time limit of the said setting, and it is also inconsistent with the lift of the 1,42 ata power setting ban by DB in mid '43.

I do not have an explanation about this inconsistency, but I would suspect these documents to be applicable to different batch of 109 and/or DB 605 A engines and/or a temporary re-ban of the 1,42 ata in Feb '44.

Edited by EC5/25_Corsair
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the 1 minute time limit on using 1.42 ata is stated in various 109G pilot manual including the one Klaus-Mann linked to.  There is no reasonable argument to be made that there is no time limit.

Edited by Sgt_Joch
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The following is from the DB 605A-1 Repair Manual, which details the run-in procedure for the engine. 

 

Take note that 1.42 ata / 2800 rpm rating is to be used twice in the run-in procedure for 5-minutes, therefore it appears that the limitation on using the WEP for only 1 minutes of time would be incorrect.

 

attachicon.gifDB605A-1_run-inprocedure.jpg

 

This is the kind of hard evidence which is needed and sorely lacking. I don't read German, is there an english translation? especially the notes next to the run-in procedure.

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This is the kind of hard evidence which is needed and sorely lacking. I don't read German, is there an english translation? especially the notes next to the run-in procedure.

 

Thanks. There is no English version of course, but it details how to run in brand new engines. 

 

This is my attempt at translating it (at places where it is very technical or could be unstertood like the "boost for x minutes" parts I did not translate it word to word, but with a summary meaning)

 

Initially run-in valves are installed.

 

A stage is electric run-in (driven by an electric engine I guess, its noted that running in using gas is permitted in emergency).

60 minutes between 500-2000 rpm, with 200 rpm steps every 10 minutes, for 2 hours in total. 

 

B stage is Gas run-in while operating on gas (i.e. natural gas). 2 hours duration, at the given rpms. Checking of rpm, pressure, temps, coolant and oil.

 

C stage is setting up/regulation the engine for 30 minute duration. 1 measurement of each pre-set power level. 250mm long exhausts are used.

 

D stage is prelinary / warm up run for 2 hours at the indicated ratings, including 5 minutes at WEP 1,42 ata and 25 mins at 1,3ata. 

During the procedure, supercharger setting, coupling, oil and coolant flow, consumption are checked. Magnetos and spark plugs are checked in M1 or M2, max allowed (variation?) is 50 rpm at 2600 rpm. Low rpm and Idle run.

 

E stage. Finally, dis-assembly and inspection, re-assembly of the engine. Injection pump for B-4 fuel operation and normal chormed valves are installed. Setting up/ regulating the engine as in Stage C.

 

F stage. Follow up run (Acceptance / Delivery run in). Duration 1,5 hours.Same checks as in Stage D, including 15 + 10 min at 1,30 ata / 2600 rpm, 5 minutes again at 1,42 ata / 2800 rpm.

 

On the next page (4) it says that following the follow up/acceptence run, the engine is to be allowed to be cooled down  (kaltfahren) and conserved by setting to fresh "Rotring" type oil (i.e. lubricant oil)

 

So prior to every engine delivery from the factory, each engine run at twice for 5 minute minutes at 1,42ata WEP. 

 

@Dakpilot. The Table is titled "Motorprüfdaten für den Prüfstand, Stück und Nachprüfung", so yes, it it appears to be tested on a bench prior to delivery from the factory. Dated November 1943.

Edited by VO101Kurfurst
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In addition, the fighter manuals with the 1-minute mark noted are the ones issued in 1943 prior to the clearing of the full 1,42 ata rating for the DB 605A-1, i.e. the ones that were either not updated or were still noting that the rating is blocked (i.e. 110G, or the probably special case of long range recce G-4/R3 and G-6/R variants that also had their armament removed and replaced by an oil tank).

 

NONE of the actual fighter manuals which clear the WEP rating for G-2, G-3 or G-4 mention any kind of time limitation for the 1,42 ata rating, see below.

 

This rating was simply understood to be "used sparingly and when necessary", and given the run-in process, where the fresh engine was subjected to a total 10 minute run at 1,42 ata, its extremely doubtful that the engine would fail after 1 minute in real life operations (provided of course that normal temperature etc. operational limits were adhered)

 

DB605A_ban_Jun-10Nov42_G2FzgHB-T6-Full.J

 

DB605A_clearance_Aug-Oct43_G2FzgHB-T0-Fu

 

DB605A_clearance_Aug-29sept43_G3FzgHB-T0

 

DB605A_clearance_Aug-29sept43_G4FzgHB-T0

Edited by VO101Kurfurst
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In addition, the fighter manuals with the 1-minute mark noted are the ones issued in 1943 prior to the clearing of the full 1,42 ata rating for the DB 605A-1, i.e. the ones that were either not updated or were still noting that the rating is blocked (i.e. 110G, or the probably special case of long range recce G-4/R3 and G-6/R variants that also had their armament removed and replaced by an oil tank).

 

NONE of the actual fighter manuals which clear the WEP rating for G-2, G-3 or G-4 mention any kind of time limitation for the 1,42 ata rating, see below.

 

This rating was simply understood to be "used sparingly and when necessary", and given the run-in process, where the fresh engine was subjected to a total 10 minute run at 1,42 ata, its extremely doubtful that the engine would fail after 1 minute in real life operations (provided of course that normal temperature etc. operational limits were adhered)

A 1 min limit is the most conservative interpretation of "sparingly and when necessary" possible. As the engine had 2 x 5min 1.42 ATA runs during running in, clearly the engineers had the figure of 5 mins in mind when considering "sparingly and when necessary" so perhaps giving the 605 engines a 5min limit in game to simulate this interpretation of the engineers' intent would be a good compromise? (Taking into account how the other engines simulated in game have been represented) 

 

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Yes, they don‘t explicitly state a time limit for what they call an „emergeny“ rating. For ComfyArmchairPilots this maybe means that, as long as there is an emergency, you can use it. This is basically from 1942 to 1945 until someone from, say, Ohio, pulls up next to you and says „License and registration please“.

 

10 minute factory run in at this high rating only proves that they correctly assembled the engine and that this max rating is possible. The fact that even at the factory, they stop after 10 minutes, you can see that as a function test and not as a run in.

 

Besides, if 1.42 ata was permissible for hours or at least forever, then it would be possible to fetch a screwdriver (in the other thread it is mentioned that some yanks felt like readjusting the throttle stop further, because they felt like getting higher MAP from their Allison) and fudge the Kommandogerät such that it gives 1.5 ata for 1 minutes. Why haven‘they done that?

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Yes, they don‘t explicitly state a time limit for what they call an „emergeny“ rating. For ComfyArmchairPilots this maybe means that, as long as there is an emergency, you can use it. This is basically from 1942 to 1945 until someone from, say, Ohio, pulls up next to you and says „License and registration please“.

 

10 minute factory run in at this high rating only proves that they correctly assembled the engine and that this max rating is possible. The fact that even at the factory, they stop after 10 minutes, you can see that as a function test and not as a run in.

 

Besides, if 1.42 ata was permissible for hours or at least forever, then it would be possible to fetch a screwdriver (in the other thread it is mentioned that some yanks felt like readjusting the throttle stop further, because they felt like getting higher MAP from their Allison) and fudge the Kommandogerät such that it gives 1.5 ata for 1 minutes. Why haven‘they done that?

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting they could be run at 1.42ata forever, only that they could be run at 1.42ata for atleast 10 min without fear of damage if the engine wasn't near its TBO. 

 

Also if the engine can manage 10 min of 1.42 ata during the run in, then you can be damn sure that once properly run in it could run for much longer without issue. 

 

Note: The run-in of an engine is the most likely time any damage will occur due to all the parts having to shave off excess material, something which was esp. true back in the old days where every part was individually made to fit. Hence every part was serial numbered.

Edited by Panthera
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A 1 min limit is the most conservative interpretation of "sparingly and when necessary" possible. As the engine had 2 x 5min 1.42 ATA runs during running in, clearly the engineers had the figure of 5 mins in mind when considering "sparingly and when necessary" so perhaps giving the 605 engines a 5min limit in game to simulate this interpretation of the engineers' intent would be a good compromise? (Taking into account how the other engines simulated in game have been represented) 

 

No, engineers didn‘t want to deliver broken engines. They simply knew they would be delivering duds if they did more. And now you‘re taking the same bet on engines that have seen use in combat and installed in aircraft and not in a test bench.

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The clearance of the WEP ratings was usually given after the engine successfully completed 100 hours running time at the WEP rating.

 

This ensured that series production engines could reliably tolerate such ratings without falling apart.

 

Limits were imposed on operations solely aimed the preserve a reasonable amount of engine life and prevent the need to supply hundreds of extra replacement engines (that could be otherwise used to more practical purposes) to the frontline because the engines would wear out at high loads too quickly, and NOT to prevent sudden catastrhopic failures.

 

Obviously they were not wearing out brand new engines for test running before delivery, Just checking if they could successfully operate.

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I don't think anyone is suggesting they could be run at 1.42ata forever, only that they could be run at 1.42ata for atleast 10 min without fear of damage if the engine wasn't near its TBO. 

 

Also if the engine can manage 10 min of 1.42 ata during the run in, then you can be damn sure that once properly run in it could run for much longer without issue. 

 

Note: The run-in of an engine is the most likely time any damage will occur due to all the parts having to shave off excess material, something which was esp. true back in the old days where every part was individually made to fit. Hence every part was serial numbered.

This kind of run in is, as said, more a function test. Run in to have everything „shaved to perfection“ takes much, much longer. All they say with it is this is that you can give full power without the engine coming apart right away.

 

I would guess it is use in the field later on that determines when it actually would come apart if you keep going at 1.42 ata and this could happen anywhere between 2 and 15 minutes, depending on what your engine has gone through during service.

 

Would it be acceptable to have such a random counter start (besides heat issues)? Or really just tell people that they can use it for 5 minutes? I mean that is more than a whole fight. And you tell people to fly different than what the manual says. Not knowing the limit would mean that you have to calculate with maxbe 2 mins and fly accordingly. You might just be lucky or not if things turn bad.

 

Personally, I think such excessive randomness would not go well with most here, especially in online play.

The clearance of the WEP ratings was usually given after the engine successfully completed 100 hours running time at the WEP rating.

This ensured that series production engines could reliably tolerate such ratings without falling apart.

Limits were imposed on operations solely aimed the preserve a reasonable amount of engine life and prevent the need to supply hundreds of extra replacement engines (that could be otherwise used to more practical purposes) to the frontline because the engines would wear out at high loads too quickly, and NOT to prevent sudden catastrhopic failures.

Obviously they were not wearing out brand new engines for test running before delivery, Just checking if they could successfully operate.

The 1.42 ata was given after an engine ran 100 hours at that rating?

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No, engineers didn‘t want to deliver broken engines. They simply knew they would be delivering duds if they did more. And now you‘re taking the same bet on engines that have seen use in combat and installed in aircraft and not in a test bench.

 

Yes, they don‘t explicitly state a time limit for what they call an „emergeny“ rating. For ComfyArmchairPilots this maybe means that, as long as there is an emergency, you can use it. This is basically from 1942 to 1945 until someone from, say, Ohio, pulls up next to you and says „License and registration please“.

 

10 minute factory run in at this high rating only proves that they correctly assembled the engine and that this max rating is possible. The fact that even at the factory, they stop after 10 minutes, you can see that as a function test and not as a run in.

 

Besides, if 1.42 ata was permissible for hours or at least forever, then it would be possible to fetch a screwdriver (in the other thread it is mentioned that some yanks felt like readjusting the throttle stop further, because they felt like getting higher MAP from their Allison) and fudge the Kommandogerät such that it gives 1.5 ata for 1 minutes. Why haven‘they done that?

I 100% agree with your points

 

A. That a factory test run time at WEP shouldn't/doesn't = actual flight time at WEP in the flight manual.

B. That it is wrong to interpret "sparingly as when necessary" as 100% all the time because I'm a fighter jock behind a keyboard.

 

However the fact is the German egineers did say 1min then changed to a (In my opinion) less restrictive "sparingly and when necessary" so the question is; what should it be now? I'd argue that it should be changed (The limit in the game) because if you are going to base your engine in the game on the limits stated in the manual then to be consistent if the limits in the manual change then you have to change your limits in the game. The limits have changed from the resumption of allowing 1.42 ATA otherwise they'd have just said "1min" or "use previous limits"

 

The question is.. what to? 5min or 3min sounds like a decent change to represent a relaxing of limits without being ridiculous.

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The 1.42 ata was given after an engine ran 100 hours at that rating?

I don't think so, as I've said elsewhere recently, I remember it to be 30 min combat, 5 min emergency, 25 min continuous in a 100 hour cycle.
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I just think it one should give the ComfyArmchairPilot a bit of a break.

 

Fact is that in this combat sim, it would be out of place to ask for 100% in detail systems simulation to perfectly reproduce breakdown. Also I am rather idifferent to 1 or 10 minutes max. rated power. I do think tho that 1 minutes 1.42 ata on the 109 is enough to shoot any competing plane in this sim. But if you really do need these more minutes, fine.

 

What I think being one of the main drivers to perpetuate subtleties about these engines in borderline situations is that punishment comes unexpected. Unexpected is always percieved as unfair and wrong. I have long suggested in the case of the P40 that we should get some feedback before punishment. 1 minute power is long enough if someone tells you first that the minute is over. Either bad noises or heat on a gauge.

 

I know, in case of the P40 there should be no bad sounds (in most cases) when you go to 55‘‘ manifold, but for sake of good play, there should be a fair warning. This is not realistic I know, but neither is the ComfyArmchairPilot. But it would be realistic overall if we could make that one behave a bit more like a real pilot.

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This kind of run in is, as said, more a function test. Run in to have everything „shaved to perfection“ takes much, much longer. All they say with it is this is that you can give full power without the engine coming apart right away.

 

 

You're missing the point, which is that if the engine could be run for 10 min without incident right out of the factory then once the engine was properly broken in it would be able to run for much longer without issue. 

 

Now I have no problem with there being a time limit for non-stop use demanding a cool down period in between, but that time limit has to be at least 10 min based on the documentation provided. Anything less and it just becomes a arcade game gimmick, which doesn't belong in anything that wants to be called a simulator.

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The 1.42 ata was given after an engine ran 100 hours at that rating?

 

I am not sure but 100 hour "Dauerprobungs" or Continuous tests are mentioned in several Rechlin papers I have. Perhaps JtD is right and it was done in cycles of varied ratings.

 

I have however the testing results of a later DB 605D engines from January 1945, the engine was stress tested until destruction of the engine.

 

The report says:

 

"The fourth engine, 111 195 was tested in a Ju 52 for 43 hours with manifold pressures up to 1,48 ata after the type proving program and afterwards was set to higher manifold pressures of 1,98 ata. After an additional 2 hours, from which 40 minutes was WEP operation (Notleistungsbetrieb) connecting rod breakage occured."

 

Another testing result from December 1944 noted that one set of DW 250 spark plugs were used in 5 separate engines, each were run for a 1-hour long uninterrupted WEP rating just to check their feasibility.

 

Certainly all of these engines could take a good deal more than just a few minutes at max power.

Edited by VO101Kurfurst
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I am not sure but 100 hour "Dauerprobungs" or Continuous tests are mentioned in several Rechlin papers I have. Perhaps JtD is right and it was done in cycles of varied ratings.

 

I have however the testing results of a later DB 605D engines from January 1945, the engine was stress tested until destruction of the engine.

 

The report says:

 

"The fourth engine, 111 195 was tested in a Ju 52 for 43 hours with manifold pressures up to 1,48 ata after the type proving program and afterwards was set to higher manifold pressures of 1,98 ata. After an additional 2 hours, from which 40 minutes was WEP operation (Notleistungsbetrieb) connecting rod breakage occured."

Interesting. Thnx. AFIR there were cycles as mentioned JtD, but I don‘t have too many reports, thus, my question.

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You're missing the point, which is that if the engine could be run for 10 min without incident right out of the factory then once the engine was properly broken in it would be able to run for much longer without issue. 

 

Now I have no problem with there being a time limit for non-stop use demanding a cool down period in between, but that time limit has to be at least 10 min based on the documentation provided. Anything less and it just becomes a arcade game gimmick, which doesn't belong in anything that wants to be called a simulator.

10 minutes are still assumption. Documents on how to fly the aircraft to come home with a rotating prop say different. It is also a bit subjective when a game is archade or not.

 

(I try to imagine now IL-2 on an archade box, twist stick and throttle lever, you feed it one $ and then you have 3 min on WoL. Shooting down a fighter gives you added 2 min., shooting a bomber gives you 3 minutes, shooting 5 fighters in a row upgrades your nerf-Mausers to friggin lasers....)

 

But if you feel having to fly a plane to the specs stated in the operating manuals is archade, ok.

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Nobody is debating that the engine would always fail after 1 minute, and that's not the reason why the limit is imposed ingame. It is imposed because the operating manual says it is.

 

If you want to get it changed, you need to get a manual that says something else, or some indication that the limit was no longer officially imposed at a certain date.

 

It does not matter how long it was ran on a test bed, that is not what the numbers ingame are based on.

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The thing is, after the 1.42 ata ban was lifted, there was no clear restrictions stated in the manuals.

 

The absence of clear restriction and the instruction to use the boost "as sparingly as possible" obviously induce such a setting is stressing the engine more than lower power ratings.

 

It would be however silly to assume such a setting would be destructive for the engine if used in usual classic combat situation, be it 1, 5 minutes, maybe even 10 if assuming a quick reaction alert takeoff and climb. It is highly plausible that the engine was able to sustain the boost in typical situation after the mid 1943 revisions leading to the ban lift. Stated boost restrictions (...was there any?) would have been otherwise made much more clear.

 

This, and the later tests Kurfurst quoted (although for later engines) are consistent with the engine being able to sustain the boost to some extent.

 

At the current state, and awaiting further evidence (or non evidence of a restriction), I think it can be clear that the current game restriction shall be lifted whatsoever..

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10 minutes are still assumption. Documents on how to fly the aircraft to come home with a rotating prop say different. It is also a bit subjective when a game is archade or not.

 

(I try to imagine now IL-2 on an archade box, twist stick and throttle lever, you feed it one $ and then you have 3 min on WoL. Shooting down a fighter gives you added 2 min., shooting a bomber gives you 3 minutes, shooting 5 fighters in a row upgrades your nerf-Mausers to friggin lasers....)

 

But if you feel having to fly a plane to the specs stated in the operating manuals is archade, ok.

 

The operating manual says nowhere you can only run at 1.42ata for 1 min or the engine may get damaged, nowhere.

 

Also how is 10 min an assumption when there's actual hard evidence right infront of you that specifically reads that every factory fresh engine is run-in for 10 min at 1.42ata before being delivered? If you use your logic for a minute you should quickly be able to conclude that if a brand spanking new engine can run at 1.42ata for 10 min without a hitch before actually being broken in, well then it sure as heck will be able to run for that long without a single chance of it being damaged once it actually is broken in.

 

Just use your sense of logic, that's all Im asking.

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Have you considered that the engine was tested for 5 minutes on WEP before delivery because that was the exact time limit?

 

The 1 minute limit only turns up in manuals which have the WEP banned... this is likely because the only 1 minute limit was on the 109E 1,4 ATA rating, which was strictly meant as a takeoff boost for tight places. The normal WEP 1,3 or 1,35 ATA was 5 minutes there as well.

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Nobody is debating that the engine would always fail after 1 minute, and that's not the reason why the limit is imposed ingame. It is imposed because the operating manual says it is.

 

Please read the manuals before making claims that do not contribute to the discussion in a relevant way.

 

Manuals stating the 1 minute restrictions also mention a total ban and unavailability of the 1,42 ata setting

 

These are all pre mid-43 manuals.

 

Post mid-43 manuals, concurring with revision of the DB 605 A engine, state the availability of the 1,42 ata setting without any quoted restriction.

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Fortunately books are not effected by lost hard drives - the "Rechlin program" was indeed a 30min combat/climb, 5min emergency and 25min max. continuous cycle, repeated for 100 hours in the "Dauererprobung" (endurance test).

 

It should not be assumed, however, that a passed test meant the engine did this test without interruption or issues. It still would be serviced in accordance with the manual, and minor problems, like burned through exhaust stacks or broken hoses, were acceptable. You don't rule out an engine because a mechanic did not tighten a small screw properly.

Major mechanical failures were not acceptable of course, and the overall design and operating parameters of the engine had to be suitable.

 

Tests like these were also used in development, gradually increasing power, finding the weakest elements, improving them and so on.

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The operating manual says nowhere you can only run at 1.42ata for 1 min or the engine may get damaged, nowhere.

 

Also how is 10 min an assumption when there's actual hard evidence right infront of you that specifically reads that every factory fresh engine is run-in for 10 min at 1.42ata before being delivered? If you use your logic for a minute you should quickly be able to conclude that if a brand spanking new engine can run at 1.42ata for 10 min without a hitch before actually being broken in, well then it sure as heck will be able to run for that long without a single chance of it being damaged once it actually is broken in.

 

Just use your sense of logic, that's all Im asking.

I said that 10 minutes or even longer 1.42 ata could be plausible (also to me). But if you want players to adhere to the manual, you have to be more coarse. I also said, if 1 minute (or so) is all that we are given becuse this is supposed to be an emergency rating rather than yout default setting, it would help having more of a cue when the engine seizes, other than setting a chess clock next to the monitor.

 

If however we would be given 15 minutes of guaranteed operation time at 1.42 ata, then you can imagine how people would fly online. That is what I would call archade.

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You're missing the point, which is that if the engine could be run for 10 min without incident right out of the factory then once the engine was properly broken in it would be able to run for much longer without issue. 

 

Now I have no problem with there being a time limit for non-stop use demanding a cool down period in between, but that time limit has to be at least 10 min based on the documentation provided. Anything less and it just becomes a arcade game gimmick, which doesn't belong in anything that wants to be called a simulator.

 

well no, you are missing the point. The 2 x 5 minutes run-in was run on a bench. At the risk or repeating myself for the umpteenth time, was kills an engine (if you exclude mechanical failure)  is detonation and/or excessive heat.  You run an engine on a bench, it is easy to keep it cool and within operating parameters. That is why they could run P38 and P51 engines at full WEP for 8 hours or more.

 

Once an engine is placed inside an aircraft, for a host of different reasons, it is much more difficult to control the heat in all the operating conditions.

 

so the DB605 engine run at 1.42 in a 109G might run 20+ minutes under one set of variables or might fail in 2 minutes under another set of variables.

 

What you would need would be a model that would track engine temperature and determine the risk of detonation, but that is probably too big an investment for a niche entertainment product.

 

If it will stop these constant threads, I would agree with Kurfurst's suggestion of boosting the 1 minute limit to 5 minutes.

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If however we would be given 15 minutes of guaranteed operation time at 1.42 ata, then you can imagine how people would fly online. That is what I would call archade.

I think it would be sad from the development team to introduce ahistorical pseudo restrictions with the only goal to control how players behave online (a rather small portion of the sim usage, may I remind). This is not War Thunder..

Edited by EC5/25_Corsair
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