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And ramming is just a digital cheat that takes advantage of the fact that you’re not actually increasing your odds of dying by crashing into an enemy aircraft. So get ready for lots of vulching if you start ramming.

 

Ramming is no more a digital cheat then shooting an aircraft with cannons. You are conflating the issues.

Yeah, the nerve it touches is that I absolutely *hate* to see simulations like this, which i absolutelly love, get overrun by people who really want it to be just another shoot-em-up, ram 'em, arcade fest. 

 

No one is saying it should be "just another shoot-em-up, ram 'em, arcade fest". There is not one post to that effect.

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I don't care how cool you thought you were being a ramming spoilsport back in IL-2 1946, years ago... 

 

You went from 0 to 60 awfully fast there.

 

Maybe he rammed one or two planes, under specific circumstances, out of hundreds of flights. How does that justify you calling him a "ramming spoilsport"?

 

You are insinuating action and motive and you haven't a leg to stand on to support your claim.

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Ramming is no more a digital cheat then shooting an aircraft with cannons. You are conflating the issues.

 

That is nonsense. Ramming was very dangerous. There was a very good chance that you would die. Fear of dying is what prevented most pilots from doing it. That fear does not exist in a video game. So it’s a digital cheat. Vulching is no worse. Get ready for lots of vulching if you start ramming.

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Another tale of poor skill, gung-ho attitude by lame pilots. The offender in question is Guards Major Vladimir Lavrinenkov, twice Hero of the Soviet Union, 44 aerial victories.

 

On August 23, 1943 the commander of the 8th Air Force, Major-General T. Khryukin, ordered V. Lavrinenkov to lead a flight of four to intercept a Fw-189 spotter. Lavrinenkov found the German over the village of Alexandrovka, Matveyev-Kurgan district of Rostov region and attacked him. The German began evasive manoeuvres, entering a downwards spiral. Lavrinenkov's wingman attacked as well, but also missed. After this the Rama was attacked by the second pair, but turning sharply under attack it escaped from their fire.

V. Lavrinenkov followed the enemy plane in its trajectory. His fire suppressed the gunners of the Focke-Wulf but it was impossible to shoot it down. T. Khryukin told V. Lavrinenkov over the radio, “Falcon-17, I do not recognize you!” V. Lavrinenkov replied, “I am Falcon-17. Hopefully within a few minutes you will”, and went ahead to ram the Fw-189. The wing of his Aircobra struck the Rama's fuselage, and both planes flew to the ground.

Lavrinenkov landed by parachute in enemy territory and was captured by the Nazis. He was sent to Berlin by train for interrogation, but on the way there he and another pilot jumped out from the train marching at full speed at night, and disappeared. For three months they fought as partisans under the command of A. Tkanko. Lavrinenkov then returned to his regiment, was promoted to Guards Captain and shortly after scored his 28th personal victory, a Ju-88 over the Dneper.

 

Lavrinenkov, an experienced pilot, attempted to intercept the enemy in a traditional way. Upon failing to do so, he used his skill to bring the enemy aircraft down in a controlled manner. The mission was accomplished, and the Fw-189 never called the artillery or delivered the information it was carrying due to that. 'Ivan from infantry' survived another day because of his actions.

 

Of course, virtually the loss of life is an academic matter only, but the dedication to complete an objective is a divider of waters. If you are more concerned with self-preservation than the success of your faction, then the enemy can bank on that to force you out of their way. For the record, "do you even multiplayer bro" is a good symptom of being out of ideas and arguments.

 

This whole affair reminds me of some people here who were outraged that some pilots pursued head-on attacks against them. "The horror, the horror of meeting gunfire head on! The poor sportsmanship of taking a gamble! The offense to all things air combat! Oh, why do they ruin my realism, my immersion, my experience, so, so much?!"

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That is nonsense. Ramming was very dangerous. There was a very good chance that you would die. Fear of dying is what prevented most pilots from doing it. That fear does not exist in a video game. So it’s a digital cheat. Vulching is no worse. Get ready for lots of vulching if you start ramming.

 

If a lack of fear is tantamount to a digital cheat, we are truly entering the Twilight Zone of twisted existentialism.

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That is nonsense. Ramming was very dangerous. There was a very good chance that you would die. Fear of dying is what prevented most pilots from doing it. That fear does not exist in a video game. So it’s a digital cheat. Vulching is no worse. Get ready for lots of vulching if you start ramming.

 

Have you applied that logic to everything that we do in the sim that is less scary or dangerous than in real life?

Don't get me wrong, you'll likely never catch me ramming someone...but that's some low hanging fruit there.

 

That said of I'm being honest I know where you're trying to come from...I just think that by your logic attacking a heavily defended airfield then becomes a "digital cheat"

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If a lack of fear is tantamount to a digital cheat, we are truly entering the Twilight Zone of twisted existentialism.

More nonsense. Fear defines almost everything that happens in combat. The more likely that the result is death, the less likely that someone will do it. That’s why ramming was rare. That fear doesn’t exist in video games.

 

In any case, if you think that you would have risked death by ramming enemy aircraft, I’m relatively certain that you will inspire more people to risk death by AAA to vulch you before you’re in a position to ram them.

I just think that by your logic attacking a heavily defended airfield then becomes a "digital cheat"

By solo suicidal fools? It’s absolutely a digital cheat.

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More nonsense. Fear defines almost everything that happens in combat. The more likely that the result is death, the less likely that someone will do it. That’s why ramming was rare. That fear doesn’t exist in video games.

 

In any case, if you think that you would have risked death by ramming enemy aircraft, I’m relatively certain that you will inspire more people to risk death by AAA to vulch you before you’re in a position to ram them.

 

By solo suicidal fools? It’s absolutely a digital cheat.

 

That you log on and fly a combat flightsim from the comfort of your warm safe home is the first of digital cheats. All others follow that one.

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That you log on and fly a combat flightsim from the comfort of your warm safe home is the first of digital cheats. All others follow that one.

By playing the game we’re pretending to be fighter pilots. I’m pretending to be a fighter pilot of average courage (which I have to imagine, since I don’t have any firsthand experience). If you want to play the role of a pilot with the courage to ram enemy aircraft, then you should expect to see more pilots recreating the courage to brave heavy AAA to vulch your courageous @ss on the ground.

 

So, no, all others don’t follow.

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you should expect to see more pilots recreating the courage to brave heavy AAA to vulch your courageous @ss on the ground.

 

So, no, all others don’t follow.

 

You mean straf?

I'm very well read on WWII aviation history, and I don't recall the word "vulch" ever being used in any book that I've read.

 

However I have read of airfields being strafed under numerous occasions by brave pilots on all sides, under heavy AA fire.

Hey did you know that Operation Bodenplatte was in itself a large Vul...I mean strafing operation?

 

"Vulch" is a term that should be reserved for someone camping over an airfield and shooting spawners - not anyone attacking an airfield.

That's more or less accepted by most reasonable folks here.

 

Also there was a pilot in the 352nd by the name of Joseph Broadwater who died flying into the face of a large German attack by himself, breaking it up and saving several

bombers in the process. He died doing this. Was that a cheat? Or...if I engage in the same act in the sim, am I cheating because I don't have fear? Did Broadwater have fear?

If he did, did that mean he wasn't cheating? If he didn't, that make him a real life cheater? Or...is it OK to make a head on-pass against multiple enemy aircraft, but if I attack

multiple AA installments is that then a cheat? If I'm pretending to be a pilot of above average courage is it cheat? What if I'm pretending to be a pilot who isn't smart enough

to be afraid...is it a cheat then.

 

I need the rules spelled out here.

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I need the rules spelled out here.

I think I’ve been pretty clear about what I think the rule should be in this situation. If it’s clear that someone is repeatedly ramming people, they should expect a lot of “strafing” of their airfields.

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By playing the game we’re pretending to be fighter pilots. I’m pretending to be a fighter pilot of average courage (which I have to imagine, since I don’t have any firsthand experience). If you want to play the role of a pilot with the courage to ram enemy aircraft, then you should expect to see more pilots recreating the courage to brave heavy AAA to vulch your courageous @ss on the ground.

So, no, all others don’t follow.

Why do you assume it's courage and not desperation? Why do you assume it's courage and not blind rage?

 

You said: "I'm pretending to be a fighter pilot . . . " and then go on to make assumptions about the nature of courage involved in that enterprise, admitting you have no first hand knowledge, but hold your assumptions as correct and the others person's as incorrect.

 

From alpha to omega, your argument - and I'm being generous calling it that - is simply made up on the fly and is a masterwork of specious typing. That you claim everything you don't approve of is a digital cheat is as patently ridiculous as it is self-righteous.

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Why do you assume it's courage and not desperation? Why do you assume it's courage and not blind rage?

 

I don’t really care if it’s rage, desperation, or courage that you’re choosing to emulate. Get ready for lots of airfield raids in response.

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I don’t really care if it’s rage, desperation, or courage that you’re choosing to emulate. Get ready for lots of airfield raids in response.

What's wrong with airfield raids?

 

This is a combat flightsim, after all.

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What's wrong with airfield raids?

This is a combat flightsim, after all.

Absolutely nothing. Just don’t expect a lot of sympathy when you start crying about vulching.

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Absolutely nothing. Just don’t expect a lot of sympathy when you start crying about vulching.

So you are insinuating that if someone engages in behaviour everyone agrees has a basis in reality, others will react by being petty little brats and engage in what everyone agrees is digital cheating?

 

You don't think much of the people on your side of the fence, do you? You make them out to be weak willed and prone to cheating.

 

That's not very high minded of you.

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So you are insinuating that if someone engages in behaviour everyone agrees has a basis in reality, others will react by being petty little brats and engage in what everyone agrees is digital cheating?

 

No, I expect that if you do a lot of ramming then you should expect to get strafed on the ground a lot. Behavior that everyone agrees has a basis in reality.

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No, I expect that if you do a lot of ramming then you should expect to get strafed on the ground a lot. Behavior that everyone agrees has a basis in reality.

If you will take the time to read the posts you respond to, you will notice that no one, not one person in one single post, has advocated "a lot of ramming".

 

You are overeacting and insinuating bad motivations upon people on both sides of this issue.

 

Read before you react.

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If you will take the time to read the posts you respond to, you will notice that no one, not one person in one single post, has advocated "a lot of ramming".

 

Then I don’t understand why you’re worried about being vulched. I’m pretty sure that I made it clear that there would have to be multiple rammings before you should expect lots of spawn attacks.

Btw, I’m just speaking for myself. Others might start going after you if they suspect a single intentional ram.

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Then I don’t understand why you’re worried about being vulched. I’m pretty sure that I made it clear that there would have to be multiple rammings before you should expect lots of spawn attacks.

I'm not worried about being vulched.

 

But I do see it as a form of cheating, a viewpoint that is shared by every person in this thread.

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I'm not worried about being vulched.

But I do see it as a form of cheating, a viewpoint that is shared by every person in this thread.

Ground attack is a form of cheating? You’re not going to enjoy Bodenplatte...

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Ground attack is a form of cheating? You’re not going to enjoy Bodenplatte...

At this point I think you are simply being thick for the sport of it.

 

Vulching is cheating. Every single person in this thread agrees with that point of view.

 

Bonsoir.

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I used to agree with that point of view, but now all the BS being used to justify ramming in MP has convinced me that attacking airfields is a perfectly valid tactic.

 

And I’m not the one being thick here.

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It's pointless BSR.  I keep saying...I doubt we're going to see this guy in MP.  It's so very easy to see that he doesn't have the temperament for it.  I'm guessing that's why he is so enthusiastic about the prospect of ramming...more than anything he appears to be looking for a way to "save face", because he knows that a lot of humble pie awaits him online, and he doesn't look forward to eating it.  Don't bother with him anymore.

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I think vulching, shoot killing, and ramming are all valid tactics...some of my best times in the game have been when ZEBRA was bombing my takeoffs.  Nothing more thrilling than trying to take off while seeing a stream of bombs exploding on the airfield all around with AAA and air raid sirens screaming...Great times.

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As far as chivalry goes...I have never been left to limp home in my 110 with engines smoking, except for FNBF and SNBF.  I am almost always perused and shot out of the sky so I guess I just dont see the point of returning a chivalrous gesture that is never extended to me.  Flying a slow bird like I do I have witnessed this dozens and dozens of times.  I hold no ill will but I will not be fooled into playing by chivalrous rules that everyone interprets to their benefit.  meh.

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As far as chivalry goes...I have never been left to limp home in my 110 with engines smoking

Um, you would be shot down in rl in that situation. Chivalry was pretty rare. So was intentional ramming.

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As far as chivalry goes...I have never been left to limp home in my 110 with engines smoking, except for FNBF and SNBF.  I am almost always perused and shot out of the sky so I guess I just dont see the point of returning a chivalrous gesture that is never extended to me.  Flying a slow bird like I do I have witnessed this dozens and dozens of times.  I hold no ill will but I will not be fooled into playing by chivalrous rules that everyone interprets to their benefit.  meh.

 

 

Nobody said anything about chivalry.  If I see your smoking wreck of plane, I'll be the first one in, as long as it's tactically wise to do so.  I love shooting down stragglers.

Edited by Iceworm

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Nobody said anything about chivalry.  If I see your smoking wreck of plane, I'll be the first one in.  I love shooting down stragglers.

You imply it with your discussion of ethics and ramming my friend...And you should feel no butt hurt when you get rammed if thats how you play.  Both tasteless but historical, sooo....

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Both tasteless but historical, sooo....

Not really. A smoking bomber in rl was very much like blood in the water for sharks. Intentional ramming was very rare.

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You imply it with your discussion of ethics and ramming my friend...And you should feel no butt hurt when you get rammed if thats how you play.  Both tasteless but historical, sooo....

 

hmm, I don't practice Chivalry in this game or even Rise of Flight. What I do practice is putting some value of into the concept of virtual life.  I don't do things like Ram people, or fly like a Kamikaze because I try to roleplay the life of a real fighter pilot who only had one life to lose, and no doubt valued it.  Of course I get shot down, killed, and then I have to start all over again.  If it's been a good virtual life, with a big kill streak, it can be really dissapointing to die, and so there is a big incentive to avoid it.  My aggressiveness or my cautiousness in a given situation are governed by the principle of calculated risk.  I'm generally not the kind of guy that's going to chase your smoking plane all the way back to your airfield on the deck, because that is too much risk just to get one more measly kill.  I like to have an exit plan, and I have no qualms about running from a fight that I know I can't win.  I typically fly with wingmen, and if one of them gets in a pickle, or if I get in a pickle, we generally are pretty "e-brave" when clearing each others six, no matter what the odds...but we yell at each other for being stupid and blame each other for getting into that situation in the first place!

Edited by Iceworm

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Um, you would be shot down in rl in that situation. Chivalry was pretty rare. So was intentional ramming.

I truly doubt someone IRL is going to break formation drop thousands of meters and losing all altitude with enemy fighters close by to go for that kill.  You will when you can re-spawn but yer not going after a straggler IRL.  Meh to many variables to even go down that path.

Edited by GrendelsDad

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Not really. A smoking bomber in rl was very much like blood in the water for sharks. Intentional ramming was very rare.

 

Utterly and completely beside his point.

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I truly doubt someone IRL is going to break formation drop thousands of meters and losing all altitude with enemy fighters close by to go for that kill.  You will when you can re-spawn but yer not going after a straggler IRL.  Meh to many variables to even go down that path.

You’re moving the goalposts. I won’t go for a smoking bomber (or nonsmoking) if there are fighters in the area, but I’ll definitely do it if he’s alone. Same as rl.

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If you flew the 110 you would lose your attachment to your virtual life(and your rules of engagement) pretty quickly.  Maybe I am just dead inside?

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Utterly and completely beside his point.

What are you talking about? A smoking bomber is not a get out of jail card. People will shoot you down. They would have shot you down in rl. I have no idea what he thinks that has to do with ramming or chivalry or, really, anything.

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You’re moving the goalposts. I won’t go for a smoking bomber (or nonsmoking) if there are fighters in the area, but I’ll definitely do it if he’s alone. Same as rl.

Sorry missed the part where this was a one on one engagement...I dont dogfight very much and as the action I do see is very localized, I am rarely over a target alone I guess.

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If you flew the 110 you would lose your attachment to your virtual life(and your rules of engagement) pretty quickly.  Maybe I am just dead inside?

I used to fly the IL2 a lot. I never expected to be allowed to fly home if I was smoking. Nor did I consider it chivalry if I escaped. I figured that they just ran out of ammo.

Sorry missed the part where this was a one on one engagement...I dont dogfight very much and as the action I do see is very localized, I am rarely over a target alone I guess.

Then you should blame your escort for allowing you to be shot down, and not the enemy fighters that got you.

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There are many times when a wounded bird is left to be when its out of the fight.  Makes tactical sense to not chase a plane that is out of the fight?  Also in real life you would be strafed and bombed on the airfield quite often if the enemy could reach it for sure. 

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There are many times when a wounded bird is left to be when its out of the fight.  Makes tactical sense to not chase a plane that is out of the fight? 

 

That isn’t what I’ve read. A smoking bomber attracted enemy fighters like sharks to blood.

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