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Should the Soviet AI try to perform a taran as the pilots historically did in the early months of the war?

What do you pilots think about it?

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I'm curious to what you're actually talking about. Got a video?

 

EDIT: I see. Just a fancy word for ramming.

 

I think that would be horrible AI programming!

Edited by Warpig

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Well, according to the book Black Cross Red Star, the Soviet pilots used the ramming technique a lot at the beginning of the war. It saved somehow the situation for the VVS.

 

Would it add immersion or is it too crazy?

Edited by -=PHX=-Spartan-

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I'm all for it.

 

Out of ammo, low on fuel, and the smoking, burning plane chasing you back to your base is trying to impale you with its propeller.

 

Bring out on! :)

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Yes, taran is both honourable and effective. If done properly the VVS pilot gets to bail out over his own territory and could be back in another aircraft quickly. It took courage to carry it out and definitely had value. It should be simulated.

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It can be "simulated" just fine in MP. No need to ruin the integrity of the SP campaigns with kamikaze AI's.

 

Plus, how would this be programmed in the deliberate manners described as keeping the rammer alive? Think about it.

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I have mixed feelings about this. 

 

It would certainly be interesting as an option for mission builders. However, the game collision mechanics might cause some strange behaviour. I don't know if the damage would be believable. 

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Taran was never a formalized doctrine AFAIK, more something that happened in the heat of the moment. As such I don't think it would be a good idea to program into the AI, it would happen all too frequently and all too predictably.

 

BTW: Taran could be quite effective and wasn't always suicidal. Lt. Khlobystov, who flew a P-40 in the Murmansk area got 3 of his 7 kills by Taran (two of them in the same mission!) and in both cases managed to land his aircraft at home base afterwards.

 

khlo3.JPG

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It can be "simulated" just fine in MP. No need to ruin the integrity of the SP campaigns with kamikaze AI's.

 

Plus, how would this be programmed in the deliberate manners described as keeping the rammer alive? Think about it.

The rammer doesn't want to live - he wants to kill.

 

I want to see AI that flies right next to you and explodes it's ordinance in an airburst just to take you out.

 

Bring it on!

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The rammer doesn't want to live - he wants to kill.

 

I want to see AI that flies right next to you and explodes it's ordinance in an airburst just to take you out.

 

Bring it on!

You sound way too excited about this. :biggrin:

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What about a random component? The AI could in a x percentage try this maneuver.

I think your idea might be cool in a singular mission aspect.

 

Like a mission where you have to provide bomber cover against a desperate VVS squad.

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Yeah, I'm not so sure about all of this. 

 

As they say, truth is always the first casualty of war.  Did some people ram enemy aircraft?  Sure, almost certainly.  Did some people just collide with enemy aircraft and later lie about it because they feared being labelled incompetent or worse, a saboteur?  I suspect so.  Ramming also sounds like the sort of 'heroic act' a government might decide to extol, for propaganda purposes.  Whether such occurrences were actually as common as we're led to believe is another matter entirely.  When the establishment has it's back to the wall, examples of 'heroic self-sacrifice' have a very useful purpose.  

Edited by Wulf
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Ai is already crazy and they do ram you. Happend many times when i was flying ju52, it's just annoying...

 

I think i have even this recorded, can share it here but in Monday maybe, wont have pc access during weekend.

Edited by InProgress

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From a purely gameplay perspective that sounds like a terrible idea. doesn't really add anything except a quick end to a mission .

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From a purely gameplay perspective that sounds like a terrible idea. doesn't really add anything except a quick end to a mission .

 

If you let him ram you, yes.

 

Don't let him. :cool:

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Whatever improvements the devs are going to do to AI, I hope they won't waste their time on such things.

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Whatever improvements the devs are going to do to AI, I hope they won't waste their time on such things.

 

I am with you there...

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Ramming is a bit of a Russian tradition dating back to WWI: :)

And, then there's this fun tidbit:

 

http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50161

 

The Russian High Command was tardy in realizing the necessity for arming its aircraft throughout 1914 and 1915, leaving frustrated aviators using such impromptu armaments as pistols, rifles, trolled anchors and cables, and other makeshifts.

 

After he crash-landed, Kozakov explained, "The damned anchor got caught and was dangling under the bottom of the enemy plane, so I decided to strike across the upper surface of the Albatros with the undercarriage of my plane. I pushed the elevator down and collided. My landing gear folded up into my fuselage and then something blew up with a loud whistling noise. "

Smirnov wrote: "They flew on for some minutes like this (connected), but then the German lost control and fell to earth like a sack, dragging Kozakov. Disaster seemed very near. Hardly 200 feet from the ground they seemed to disentangle: a miracle! (Kozakov) tore his machine out of the deadly downward course and landed rough but safely...His opponent...dived his nose into the ground. He became our prisoner."

 

Crazy Russians!  :lol:

 

Kozakov.jpg

Edited by LukeFF

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AI aircraft already have the ability to perform ramming attacks in RoF, providing they start the mission with no ammunition.  I set up a QMB in a Nieuport 17 against a group of unarmed Albatros for gunnery practice.    By the end one remained and I saw him turn and climb up to try and engage me.  Knowing he had no ammo and curious as to what he would do,  I flew straight and level and let him approach.  The AI closed in and got into firing range.  Got closer, and closer.  Then chewed my tail off with his prop and down we both went.

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Yeah, I'm not so sure about all of this. 

 

As they say, truth is always the first casualty of war.  Did some people ram enemy aircraft?  Sure, almost certainly.  Did some people just collide with enemy aircraft and later lie about it because they feared being labelled incompetent or worse, a saboteur?  I suspect so.  Ramming also sounds like the sort of 'heroic act' a government might decide to extol, for propaganda purposes.  Whether such occurrences were actually as common as we're led to believe is another matter entirely.  When the establishment has it's back to the wall, examples of 'heroic self-sacrifice' have a very useful purpose.  

 

I think I agree with Wulf here.  I'm pretty sure I don't want the AI to to be programmed to ram if they're damaged and out of ammo.   Just getting them to RTB in such circumstances would be an achievement :)

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Not only do I want the AI to ram you, I want the enemy to be able to break into your radio frequency and taunt you and threaten to ram you with a steak of hair raising profanity and blood curdling oaths.

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No, it's a game. Makes as much sense as teaching chess program to pick up chessboard and hit opponents in the face, because some chess players do it.

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No, it's a game. Makes as much sense as teaching chess program to pick up chessboard and hit opponents in the face, because some chess players do it.

That would be awesome. I'd buy that. :)

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If you read "Black Cross, Red Star" ( I have the 3 vols.), you see "Tarans" did occur and when they did, they were inevitably trumpeted by the Soviet propaganda machine.

 

However, you compare the number of documented cases of "Tarans" with the number of sorties flown by the VVS in 41-42, you see it is a very uncommon occurrence. It was nowhere near as organised as the Japanese "Kamikaze" program.

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No, it's a game. Makes as much sense as teaching chess program to pick up chessboard and hit opponents in the face, because some chess players do it.

 

Clearly, it is a game for yourself, whereas others see it and conduct themselves within it more as if it were a simulation and therefore the two approaches to behaviour are different. Taran happened in small numbers though some pilots practised it several times: it's a measure of desperation and the situation was truly desperate and this is how it is analagous to the Japanese more formal use of kamikaze. It constituted a small part of the VVS arsenal of tactics that could be deployed and as such it has a place in a simulation if it  could be programmed as an occasional AI response in certain situations. To deny its existence is denial of history. Sure happens in the online server environment so there is no reason why it couldn't be made  available to the AI as a controlled response.

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I do not understand this heated argument. 

 

While ramming is certainly not the most important feature considering the current state of the AI, it could exist without causing any trouble as an option within an AI unit's settings.

 

That way, nobody would be hit by a chessboard against their will. 

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I do not understand this heated argument. 

 

While ramming is certainly not the most important feature considering the current state of the AI, it could exist without causing any trouble as an option within an AI unit's settings.

 

That way, nobody would be hit by a chessboard against their will.

 

Unfortunately there seems to exist a cabal of players who not only do not want certain things for themselves, but do not want others to have those things either, even if others having those things does not impact the cabal in the slightest.

 

It is odd to find this sort of pedantry in video games. Or maybe it isn't, I don't know.

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The ramming could either be a good or bad thing depending on how it was implemented.  If it was in a half arsed way, one would expect it to be annoying to have their Heinkel or Junkers just blown out from under them by an unseen and unwanted AI rammer.  If however the ramming aircraft triggered an audio cue from one of your AI crewmen for example: "Enemy aircraft, closing in"  "He's going to ram... Break!"  You'd suddenly get a different perspective on things and be more embedded in the situation.

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Sensible and well presented suggestion :salute:

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I'm all for it as long as I don't have to do it.

 

ps: "Taran"=Battering Ram in Russian.

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I can't see a reasonable way to do it from a programming standpoint. One mistake in execution and it could really spoil the single player experience for good.

 

Online, however, I'd like to see it more often. Don't bend over to the marauding Heinkels and their pesky Messerschmitt friends. Out of ammo? Too low on fuel to go home? Just smash your I-16 onto those bastards. If you try to disengage they'll chase you for an easy kill, if you stabilise to try and bail out they'll shoot you to feed their ego, so give them a taste of defeat, and make it extra bitter.

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I can't see a reasonable way to do it from a programming standpoint. One mistake in execution and it could really spoil the single player experience for good.

 

Online, however, I'd like to see it more often. Don't bend over to the marauding Heinkels and their pesky Messerschmitt friends. Out of ammo? Too low on fuel to go home? Just smash your I-16 onto those bastards. If you try to disengage they'll chase you for an easy kill, if you stabilise to try and bail out they'll shoot you to feed their ego, so give them a taste of defeat, and make it extra bitter.

 

Excelsior! :clapping:

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