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How the current contact visibility negatively impact tactics in BOX

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36 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Again. It’s really simple. You can adapt yourself to a game but you can’t change the game to adapt to you. So if you decide the positives are worthwhile. Then learn to deal with what this game does and how it works. 

Or I could not, and I could try to improve the game by pointing out flaws and making suggestions to fix it. The game is wrong and should be fixed. Its really quite simple. 

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Just now, Fumes said:

Or I could not, and I could try to improve the game by pointing out flaws and making suggestions to fix it. The game is wrong and should be fixed. Its really quite simple. 

They’re never going to adopt this scaling business, because:

1. It looks really awful. 

2. Players will want it adjustable and that will fragment multiplayer, which is sparse already. 

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11 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

They’re never going to adopt this scaling business, because:

1. It looks really awful. 

2. Players will want it adjustable and that will fragment multiplayer, which is sparse already. 

How on earth does it look awful? Where are you even getting that from? Both those videos I posted showed a very natural scaling. If you didnt know it was on you would not know it was there. You keep saying this [Edited] but it doesnt make any more sense from repetition. 

 

And your second point is just a [Edited] assumption on your part. Do you read the devs and players minds? Scaling is not adjustable in BMS. DCS imposters were no scaling, and your impression of them seems to informing your opinion. And the DCS imposters was a horrible implementation of an attempted fix. 

 

Ditch the battery Mr. Conrad. 

Edited by Fumes

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15 hours ago, Fumes said:

How on earth does it look awful?

By the very definition of what it’s doing. If it doesn’t change the size of objects enough to be noticeable then why use it?

if the change in size is noticeable then that’s going to look awful. If scaling was such a great idea 1CGS would be using it already. But they don’t. Because the effect looks terrible. The video examples don’t show the aircraft in relation to ground objects where the odd size reveals itself. 

15 hours ago, Fumes said:

Scaling is not adjustable in BMS. 

The video shows scaling being switched on and off so that setting seems to be controllable.  

Players would not be able to agree whether to have it on or off in multiplayer and that would fragment the game online. 

Edited by SharpeXB
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1 minute ago, SharpeXB said:

By the very definition of what it’s doing. If it doesn’t change the size of objects enough to be noticeable then why use it?

if the change in size is noticeable then that’s going to look awful. If scaling was such a great idea 1CGS would be using it already. But they don’t. Because the effect looks terrible. The video examples don’t show the aircraft in relation to ground objects where the odd size reveals itself. 

WUT. 

 

Saying that if it makes a size change = must look bad is A NON SEQUITUR. That literally MAKES NO SENSE. In what way does it look bad? You cant even tell its doing it unless you make a comparison vid. Its completely seamless. 

 

What is 1CGS God now? 1CGS not doing something does not mean that its not a good idea. That comment is so asinine. 

 

The aircraft dont look strange compared to ground objects. Because of their relative distance at long range, they look the correct size. If you get closer, they scale and you cant notice. Its literally impossible to notice. THIS IS NOT DCS IMPOSTERS. 

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If you see a scaled up aircraft in relation to a non-scaled object like on the ground it will look awkward. That should be obvious.   

None of the current flight sim developers use this scaling stuff anymore. It’s a bad looking feature from back in the day when all games looked bad. You’re acting as if you are telling them something new they’ve never heard about. I’m sure they know all about this feature and decided not to use it for clear reasons. 

Games are different. Not all can be the same and have identical features. Especially ones from so long ago. At some point you need to accept these differences and get over it. 

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Clearly you have not flown BMS. And in fact, the OPPOSITE is obvious. Have you not ever noticed that the relative size of object in a drawing depends on their distance? At ranges where the airplane is scaled up, you are too far away to TELL. Because it is a matter of PERSPECTIVE. Once you get closer it scales back and you CANT notice the difference in size. 

 

How do you know they know about it? And if if they do, there could be a dozen different reasons they didn't implement it that have got nothing to do with them thinking its unrealistic or looks bad. IL2 does not have ALOT of things. MOST games do not have ALOT of things. Their omission is not evidence of a negative opinion. There are alot of things that went into this game that have been changed from the beginning, so the idea that it is not currently implemented means it wont ever be or that the devs do not like it is a NON SEQUITUR. 

 

This has got nothing to do with the old games. This has to do with a deficiency in IL2. The only reason the old games are being brought up, which I said before, was to make the point that solutions to these issues are already AVAILABLE. Meaning that 1C would not necessarily have to invent them from scratch and would have basis for whatever they made themselves.

 

Come off it. 

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11 minutes ago, Fumes said:

 At ranges where the airplane is scaled up, you are too far away to TELL. 

If you can’t tell. Then why use it? 

If you can tell. Then it will look awful. 

Thats why it’s a bad idea. 

11 minutes ago, Fumes said:

How do you know they know about it?

Because this is their business and they know more about flight sims than either you or I do. And they decided not to use it. If it was a good solution it would have been incorporated a long time ago. 

Edited by SharpeXB

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1 minute ago, SharpeXB said:

If you can’t tell. Then why use it? 

If you can tell. Then it will look awful. 

Thats why it’s a bad idea. 

This doesnt make any damn sense. 

 

You cant tell the plane is BEING SCALED. You DO see the benefit in game because the planes are easier to spot. What you cant see if some strangely huge airplanes etc. It is the process you cant see, not the results. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Fumes said:

This doesnt make any damn sense. 

You’re right. Scaling doesn’t make sense. :blink:

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9 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

You’re right. Scaling doesn’t make sense. :blink:

[Edited]

 

Clearly members of the DoD thought it made a ton of sense. So much so they wrote their dissertation on it. 

 

Knock off the name calling.

Edited by Bearcat

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Actually I know for sure Jason knows what smart scaling is since he responded to a post about it. 

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2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Actually I know for sure Jason knows what smart scaling is since he responded to a post about it. 

So what, he knows what it is. That neither means he dislikes it or that his mind cant be changed. 

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I highly doubt they will put this into the sim since.

A. it looks terrible

B. will wreck up multiplayer. 

Dont hold your breath waiting for it. 

If you like the positive qualities of this sim then learn to deal with the features it has. 

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18 hours ago, Fumes said:

 


Monitors are not the solution. The game should be designed to work on everyone's system,  <snip>

 

Unreasonable, did you even watch the scaling demos I posted.  <snip>

 

Better monitors help. As long as we do not have the same FOV as a RL pilot we will always have a peripheral vision problem (although I suspect that people sometimes under-estimate the constricting effect of wearing goggles). But they can certainly help with definition and contrast.

 

Yes I did watch the scaling demos. I simply expect that you will get objections to such a system in BoS. For instance, with my monitor (TV) size and distance, normally zoomed objects subtend about the same angle as in RL: so fully zoomed look much larger  I do not want them to be bigger. (Easy enough to check if you know the diameter of  one of the cockpit instruments). I do want better contrast and light effects: ironically RoF already had some of that with it's reflections. So there is clearly room for improvement but that does not mean that what may work for you should be imposed on everyone else.

 

Finally I would just add that while you obviously find it extremely annoying when anyone has the temerity to disagree with you, you had better get used to it. No-one has to either buzz-off or agree with you just because you are the OP. If you find a particular poster especially annoying I suggest use of the "ignore" function might be better for your blood pressure. 

 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, unreasonable said:

 

Better monitors help. As long as we do not have the same FOV as a RL pilot we will always have a peripheral vision problem (although I suspect that people sometimes under-estimate the constricting effect of wearing goggles). But they can certainly help with definition and contrast.

 

Yes I did watch the scaling demos. I simply expect that you will get objections to such a system in BoS. For instance, with my monitor (TV) size and distance, normally zoomed objects subtend about the same angle as in RL: so fully zoomed look much larger  I do not want them to be bigger. (Easy enough to check if you know the diameter of  one of the cockpit instruments). I do want better contrast and light effects: ironically RoF already had some of that with it's reflections. So there is clearly room for improvement but that does not mean that what may work for you should be imposed on everyone else.

 

Finally I would just add that while you obviously find it extremely annoying when anyone has the temerity to disagree with you, you had better get used to it. No-one has to either buzz-off or agree with you just because you are the OP. If you find a particular poster especially annoying I suggest use of the "ignore" function might be better for your blood pressure. 

 

 

 

 

[Edited]

 

You really need to loose the snark.

Edited by Bearcat
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This thread is about to be locked... I suggest that everyone in it recalibrate and get back to the topic at hand.. 

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Old veteran pilot "anecdotes" are just... anecdotes   ~38:28s

 

 

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On 22/04/2018 at 4:59 PM, SharpeXB said:

Pro simulators are meant to train, not to entertain. They don’t need fancy entertainment level graphics and gameplay. And that paper was written very long ago in terms of how far display technology has advanced since 2003. I can only imagine what tech these use today. 

 

I’m going to make an educated guess and say they’re probably still using tech from 2003...

If they’re lucky enough to have anything so advanced. 

Edited by Royal_Flight

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Regarding dynamic scaling: the game already implements it. See below. The IL-2 is a static object, the I16 are regular planes.scaling.png.6c9031e36c96d7131fd23342ed983303.png

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The important points of whatever IL-2S is using for visibility. 

1. It’s subtle and doesn’t present anything awkward looking to the player. 

2. It’s not a user adjustable setting. It can’t be switched on and off or have different degrees of adjustment. 

 

According to Jason IL-2S does not use scaling.  

 

Edited by SharpeXB

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Clearly is one of the biggest disadvantages vs 1946 and CoD because It is way harder in this sim to spot contacts, some of my squadmates does not like this sim because they feel it is absurdly the way is implemented the contact spotting

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Oh boy, wouldn't it be terrible if BoX implemented scaling!? Wouldn't it break everything!? It'd immediately have no players!!!

 

 

 

 

Y'all do know this is already in the game, right? Scaling doesn't solve the issues we're facing (though it can help a little).  

Back on topic, the issues that make spotting hard are two fold: 1) Planes can be small, smaller still at certain angles, and when you render you lose some detail. 2) In order to look good the world has a lot of contrast, planes that stand out due to being vastly brighter/darker than the environment instead blend in. There's a few things that you can do to fix that.

1) The complicated way: First you supersample the aircraft (even if nothing else) then instead of using a grid/random sampling you only sample high contrast areas on the aircraft. I did something like this in an Unreal game I was making and it is a pain in the ass but it does help a lot. The added bonus to this is you get really good shine/reflections. This is probably unrealistic because it has issues with transparency/alpha and clouds are already pretty rough for spotting in Il2 with lots of transparency problems.

 

2) Change the LODs (the best option): Most of the time we use auto-gen LODs and then they're cleaned up. Instead take a look at the LODs and thicken them a bit, amplifying certain characteristics of the plane while you're at it. E.g. From the six, make the wings thicker so that the plane doesn't disappear. From the top, make the 109s square wings more obvious, the P40's rad more obvious etc. When you zoom in or are close you wouldn't see these changes, but when you're looking at 20 pixels it will be far easier to spot/ident. Custom made LODs are easy and make a huge difference. This should be in the game.

 

3) Change the HDR & lighting: Rather than favouring a certain amount of contrast all the time, instead aim for a wider dynamic range and leave a little headroom for especially bright/dark objects. Currently planes blend in on both HDR On & HDR Off so it's clear the planes aren't contrasted enough compared to the general scene & landscape (probably because of the age old mistake of underestimating haze). EDIT: You do this so that highlights and/or shadows on aircraft stand out. So you do need to have an aircraft model with rudimentary lighting.

Edited by peregrine7
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6 hours ago, peregrine7 said:

Oh boy, wouldn't it be terrible if BoX implemented scaling!? Wouldn't it break everything!? It'd immediately have no players!!!
 

Y'all do know this is already in the game, right? Scaling doesn't solve the issues we're facing (though it can help a little).  

BoX does not use scaling. See the response from Jason above. 

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4 hours ago, peregrine7 said:

1) The complicated way: First you supersample the aircraft (even if nothing else) then instead of using a grid/random sampling you only sample high contrast areas on the aircraft. I did something like this in an Unreal game I was making and it is a pain in the ass but it does help a lot. The added bonus to this is you get really good shine/reflections. This is probably unrealistic because it has issues with transparency/alpha and clouds are already pretty rough for spotting in Il2 with lots of transparency problems.

 

Maybe costly but this would be great for planes far enough to be sub-pixel in size. The dot would be dynamic and alive, and reflections (or lack thereof) would provide some insight into target's course or type.

Edited by Ehret

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20 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

BoX does not use scaling. See the response from Jason above. 

 
That reply was in 2015, I'll take some screenshots tonight to show that scaling is in the game at the moment. (Maybe VR only?)

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If that has changed it hasn’t been mentioned in any of the developer diaries or updates. 

3 hours ago, peregrine7 said:

 
That reply was in 2015, I'll take some screenshots tonight to show that scaling is in the game at the moment. (Maybe VR only?)

If that has changed it hasn’t been mentioned in any of the developer diaries or updates. It’s possible that it uses some type of sprite or imposter. I’ve seen screenshots that suggest that. 

Edited by SharpeXB

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I see no scaling.  Make a mission with a static plane and a player plane - same type! - next to one another next to a building or emplacement. Use external camera from above and increase the height. The two planes and the static emplacement all maintain their relative size against one another and against the map features.

 

It takes five minutes to do using the ME.

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This is the reason I dont enjoy this game. I cant see anything unless it is in the rendered area.

Edited by kriptkori
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On 5/11/2018 at 6:07 PM, unreasonable said:

I see no scaling.  Make a mission with a static plane and a player plane - same type! - next to one another next to a building or emplacement. Use external camera from above and increase the height. The two planes and the static emplacement all maintain their relative size against one another and against the map features.

 

It takes five minutes to do using the ME.

Are you sure? See my post above from April 27th. 

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Yes I am 100% sure that I see no scaling - I checked using the ME as described.  Place a static object and a regular plane of the same type next to one another and  you will see that they maintain the same proportions as the camera is moved away.  Similarly compared to the underlying terrain features the proportions are the same. Check for yourself.

 

Your post compares two different aircraft types: now it may be that case that the way the game decides how to chose pixels for one aircraft makes a smaller aircraft look larger in some dimensions than a larger aircraft, as appears to be the case in your screenshot. But that is not scaling.

Edited by unreasonable

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Scaling2.png.701c85a9b02b0bbe40d3aa7a7bd5b45a.png

 

Redone the experiment with IL-2, static plane looks darker for some reason (they use the same skin). I changed the time to just before sunset and oriented all planes alike to avoid confusion due to light angles and shadows.

 

Real planes are located on top and to the left. Camera distances are 2500m (upper left), 5000 (upper right) and 7500m (lower right). Mission is attached. Note how the static IL2 is shrunk to around or below 1 pixel at 7500m, whereas the real planes are 6 pixels wide and appear to overlap each other, even though they don't actually touch.

TestScaling.zip

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It’s possible IL-2S uses a sprite or imposter for distant objects. I’ve seen some screenshots which suggest that. But that’s not “scaling” as others describe it. The models aren’t made larger at certain ranges. There’s maybe just a sprite to keep them from vanishing below a certain size. 

But whatever is being done is done well because it’s very difficult to discern what it is. And that’s good. The effect should be very minimal and importantly not adjustable by the player. 

Edited by SharpeXB

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@coconut. Thanks for test mission - I have had a look and compared again with my own.  Again I do not see "scaling". What you are looking at here is IMHO an artifact of how aliasing/AA works for a given skin, lighting and resolution. If there was a scaling effect it would  be much more obvious as a proportional relative increase in size well before these effects become apparent. It simply is not there.   

 

The skins for the static objects are not in fact the same as the skins for the real aircraft: to start with they have a canvas canopy cover, also what looks like a light dusting of snow and ice. They are similar in overall look: but there may well be also be differences in how lighting affects player vs static planes that accounts for the darker look at long range. In my version of this test using Ju52s, the static plane is lighter. 

 

There is also the issue of resolution: not sure what you are using but I am on 4HD. Your resolution and AA  settings will obviously influence how many and what colour pixels you get.

 

Anyway, I see no scaling! :)    

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For those like me who played MMOGs with icons for years all we thought was important flew out of the window when we got here. What we thought was important is not really important. What's important is spotting and tracking the enemy. ACM and tactics are of less importance. 

 

I'm not saying it's better or worse, it's just different. 

 

Personally I'd prefer some "artificial" help, but definately not full icons. If someone invented a padlock that couldn't be abused for spotting would be all that is needed.

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56 minutes ago, Mora_ said:

What's important is spotting and tracking the enemy. ACM and tactics are of less importance. 

That’s what is important in real air combat as well. ACM is only necessary if the enemy sees you. Most times they didn’t. 

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Tested on VR and I do see scaling, however the screenshots I was planning to take (like the ones above) are proving impossible due to the camera moving on its own when the game is paused.

So at a rough estimate, scaling is by angular size, dependent on resolution, is only ~10% and mainly disrupts the 3D (i.e it effects edge pixels and may depend on the variability of sample points per eye at low resolutions - hence VR only?)


God what I'd give for a bit more time. Work's killing me.

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Apparently good news. Let's hope it sticks.

 

We also started the research on making the aircraft and ships visible from several times farther distances. This task is very complex since it involves many various parts of the project - we can't make it at the cost of a significant performance loss in the graphics and network subsystems.

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It may just be a grammatical error, but it reads like they cannot or prefer not to increase the view distance because the performance loss is too high.

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6 minutes ago, Feathered_IV said:

It may just be a grammatical error, but it reads like they cannot or prefer not to increase the view distance because the performance loss is too high.

 

I agree, but I think that at the moment, especially with the 262, they cannot go back on this. The fact that they addressed this limitation is a sign that people are asking for it as well, which in a way surprises me how people talk so little about it. In my opinion, Il-2 right now is good only for furball servers and quick missions, and that's very limiting for a mid 2010 game that it is going into the 2020’s.

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