Developer Diary, Part 174 - Discussion

[Bucket109]

Career beta this month?

[LLv24_Zami]

Several german pilots used swastika on their aircrafts in 1914-18 as personal emblems.

Finnish air forses used swastika from 1918(?) to 1944.

Latvian air forses used swastika from 1920'th to 1940.

Soviet Kalmyk cavalry squadrons used swastika in 1919-1921:

 

 

f_19431348.jpg

 

 

Badge of Soviet Russian Federation Army in 1919-20:

 

 

image.jpg

 

 

 

If we will look on money of Vremennoe Pravitelstvo period in Russia, we will see:

 

 

250rubVP.jpg5000rub1918a.jpg1221916365-clip-276kb.jpg

 

 

 

But during World War II, swastika became a simbol of Nazism. Ideology of racial supremacy. Annigilation of all unhumans, all "lower races".

That is why it was banned. Even Finnish air forses changed its national insignia.

 

And this meaning of swastika is still actual. So please dont tell me bullsh#t, please. Tired of freaking revisionism here. I hope, Nurnberg court made a period in that issue.

And there we have to agree to disagree, my friend. You are over simplifying things.

 

FiAF national markings came from count Von Rosens donated plane personal lucky symbol in 1918, and it happened to be swastika. Air force took it to use in all it`s planes. It was in use until april 1945, when Allied control commission recommended it to be changed because Nazis had a similar "But not the same!" hakenkreuz in use. 

 

There is no ban of old national markings in Finland and it`s not illegal in our country. So we don`t consider it as Nazi symbol, it`s just an obsolete insignia and people can use it as they please. There`s no revionism here imho, just simple facts. People just don`t connect it with nazis because it`s not their symbol. Very simple. 

 

If our markings are banned somewhere else, or they can`t make distinction between them, they have to go with their laws but that`s not our problem. It`s not a big deal really for us but facts should be kept facts even in internet.

 

I hope this is the last time I have to discuss this here 

[6./ZG26_Custard]

There is no ban of old national markings in Finland and it`s not illegal in our country. So we don`t consider it as Nazi symbol, it`s just an obsolete insignia and people can use it as they please. There`s no revionism here imho, just simple facts. People just don`t connect it with nazis because it`s not their symbol. Very simple.    If our markings are banned somewhere else, or they can`t make distinction between them, they have to go with their laws but that`s not our problem. It`s not a big deal really for us but facts should be kept facts even in internet.

 

We also mustn't forget that the symbol (Gammadion ) is extremely ancient and in other cultures a sacred symbol of spiritual principles in Buddhism, Hinduism and Janisum Unfortunately, “The” symbol was appropriated by an ideological party and we know what happened from there. It is still considered an auspicious symbol by other cultures today. Purely from a personal point of view I would like to see historically accurate markings on all aircraft. As pointed out by others, “The” symbol is illegal in a number of countries, so us asking for it to be included in the sim is pretty much a moot point. Hopefully mods on mode will indeed fix this but for now back to topic…

 

Edit : To stay on topic The new SP career mode looks fantastic .

Edited October 8, 2017 by 6./ZG26_Custard

[Jade_Monkey]

Career beta this month?

No, nothing till release. They made that clear.

[Royal_Flight]

Not again this bullsh#t, please.

I'm not from Finland, I'm not from Germany, I said I wasn't sure. Maybe a better approach would be to share information if you have any, before shooting your mouth off.

 

Several german pilots used swastika on their aircrafts in 1914-18 as personal emblems.

Finnish air forses used swastika from 1918(?) to 1944.

Latvian air forses used swastika from 1920'th to 1940.

Soviet Kalmyk cavalry squadrons used swastika in 1919-1921:

 

 

f_19431348.jpg

 

 

Badge of Soviet Russian Federation Army in 1919-20:

 

 

image.jpg

 

 

 

If we will look on money of Vremennoe Pravitelstvo period in Russia, we will see:

 

 

250rubVP.jpg5000rub1918a.jpg1221916365-clip-276kb.jpg

 

 

 

But during World War II, swastika became a simbol of Nazism. Ideology of racial supremacy. Annigilation of all unhumans, all "lower races".

That is why it was banned. Even Finnish air forses changed its national insignia.

 

And this meaning of swastika is still actual. So please dont tell me bullsh#t, please. Tired of freaking revisionism here. I hope, Nurnberg court made a period in that issue.

And don't you go accusing me of revisionism either.

I don't care either way but I'm happy not seeing swastikas in game. I even went to the effort of saying that above which you can go back and read before trying to label people as genocide supporters or whatever you're projecting.

Your post even contradicts your point by stating that Finland was doing it first, wasn't a nazi country and only changed insignia after the war because the symbol had been tainted by association by that point.

So, attitude problems aside, that is a more helpful way of explaining the issue to someone who doesn't know.

 

And there we have to agree to disagree, my friend. You are over simplifying things.

 

FiAF national markings came from count Von Rosens donated plane personal lucky symbol in 1918, and it happened to be swastika. Air force took it to use in all it`s planes. It was in use until april 1945, when Allied control commission recommended it to be changed because Nazis had a similar "But not the same!" hakenkreuz in use. 

 

There is no ban of old national markings in Finland and it`s not illegal in our country. So we don`t consider it as Nazi symbol, it`s just an obsolete insignia and people can use it as they please. There`s no revionism here imho, just simple facts. People just don`t connect it with nazis because it`s not their symbol. Very simple. 

 

If our markings are banned somewhere else, or they can`t make distinction between them, they have to go with their laws but that`s not our problem. It`s not a big deal really for us but facts should be kept facts even in internet.

 

I hope this is the last time I have to discuss this here 

Thanks, that's more helpful.

 

I know next to nothing about Finland's role in the war, aside from what I've picked up from here or read about due to this sim.

Seems to have been no less intense than other theatres that are more well-known. And the Winter War seems as crazy and heroic as the best war stories from other fronts... true asymmetric style. Just goes to show how much skill, determination and a knowledge of the local country can help against even the most overwhelming odds.

[LukeFF]

Yet another DD discussion topic derailed by pointless arguing. Wonderful.

Edited October 8, 2017 by LukeFF

[707shap_Srbin]

Yet another DD discussion topic derailed by pointless arguing. Wonderful.

Its up to admins and moderators to prevent endless and pointless swastika discussions.

[sniperton]

Purely from a personal point of view I would like to see historically accurate markings on all aircraft. As pointed out by others, “The” symbol is illegal in a number of countries, so us asking for it to be included in the sim is pretty much a moot point. Hopefully mods on mode will indeed fix this but for now back to topic…

 

I fully agree with you, just would like to point out that the indiscriminated ban of certain historical insignia in one country or another can have really strange results for the community when observed by the developers. In my country for instance, which is Hungary, the Red Star is banned just like the Swastika. Hungarian law, however, discriminates between various uses, and following German law it declares that the ban "shall not be applicable if the means of propaganda or the act serves to further civil enlightenment, to avert unconstitutional aims, to promote art or science, research or teaching, reporting about current historical events or similar purposes". It's up to you (or your legal counsel) to decide whether a computer game like BoX serves pure Nazi or Communist propaganda, OR serves "to promote art or science, research or teaching". If the former is the case, let's ban the Red Star as well. If the latter, let us have that bloody swastika on planes which historically had it.

My single point is that we shouldn't act in an undiscriminated way.

[LukeFF]

[SYN_Haashashin]

Guys....

 

Back on topic...the swastica topic should be taken place somewhere else, even if the answer is well known. I will delete any further post made here about it..

 

Haash

[[RG]Flanker1985]

 

Full news - here is a full text and visual materials

You're very welcome to subscribe for new videos here

You can ask new questions in this thread

 

La-5FN??!!! Awesome!!

 

I am so excited~! I just can't hide it~!!

 

I am sure that there are many Yak lovers crying for their Yak-9 at this very moment 

Edited October 9, 2017 by [RG]Flanker1985

[OrLoK]

It wont happen.

 

It may not be factual but there are good reasons for the swatika not to be in game no matter its derivation.

 

The devs are not daft. If the game could be historically correct im sure theyd do it.

 

But there's laws and reasons not to.

 

If we're desperate there's enough skins out there to satisfy us all.

 

Ive made a RAF skin for all the planes i fly. Im happy with that incorrect though it is. I dot expect the devs to do it.

 

They do what they can, dont berate them for abiding by the law.

[LLv24_Zami]

Career beta this month?

Not open beta if that's what you meant. December is the latest word for it.

[CF-105]

Nothing to do with the issue here, Panzerbar, but I must admit that your images look like artifacts from a particularly horrifying alternate history.   

Edited October 9, 2017 by CF-105

[=FB=VikS]

The silhouette of the La-5 FN shows the antenna at about a 110 degrees angle.

In the screenshot of this DD the antenna seems to be at 90 degrees.

The above b&w image might be wrong but till sofar I've only found images of La-5 FN types with the antenna at 110 degrees (except for its prototype).

http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/la5fn.html

(scroll down to end of page for images)

 

By the gathered info which we have, it appears that first serises La-5FN (from 1 to 4th serie) had straight radiomast, which confirms by by a single photo from NII VVS training movie (filmed during 1943, you can find it on youtube), here it is:

 

 

ive added lines for angles check, as well you can see number and white band which is afair (i can be wrong here) fast identification marking for frontline airplanes during 1943 at Kalinin front.

 

and by factory parts-replacement catalogue for La-5`s

 

 

here is the page we see for:

 

 

as we know, type 37 with razorback was up to serie 27, and as you can see - type 37 serie 1-27, and type 39 (which is La-5FN) from serie 1 to 4 had the same radiomast as well as radio mast attachment to fuselage.

 

PS: ive also found only one rare photo for La-5F with straight antenna mast, here it is:

 

 

PPS: about rombus-round marking on engine cowling, here is the photo of La-5FN in green-black camo from 32 GIAP during 1943

 

[Finkeren]

Interesting VikS. I would have expected the shortening of antenna cable by moving the mast rearwards would have messed with radio receiver?

 

I never saw a La-5F or -FN with a straight mast before just now.

 

Impressed by the amount of research you guys do

[=FB=VikS]

Interesting VikS. I would have expected the shortening of antenna cable by moving the mast rearwards would have messed with radio receiver?

 

And maybe it was the reason of angled antenna introduced in series.

[Finkeren]

 

Seriously though, I think it's great that when we point out "flaws" in the model, it turns out we just don't know half of what you guys do

[Trooper117]

Rivet counters are always first on the scene in any dev diary... then comes the aviation historic correction society, closely followed by the markings and colour scheme police!

[Finkeren]

And for this thread we got people who look for spelling errors in the newspaper as well.

[Inkophile]

And for this thread we got people who look for spelling errors in the newspaper as well.

 

I know, right? Haven't they ever heard of type-setters or even the editor getting it wrong/missing out on typos? Spelling errors are realistic!

[Uufflakke]

By the gathered info which we have, it appears that first serises La-5FN (from 1 to 4th serie) had straight radiomast, which confirms by by a single photo from NII VVS training movie (filmed during 1943, you can find it on youtube), here it is:

 

 

 

Thanks for the information + documentation.

In case someone else points out the difference in the antenna mast of the LA-5 FN we can link to your post above to show it is correctly modeled.

It is hard to find images of the La-5 F or FN with vertical mast though.

A few rare images can be found here:

https://coollib.com/b/326183/read#t7

[=FB=VikS]

Thanks for the information + documentation.

In case someone else points out the difference in the antenna mast of the LA-5 FN we can link to your post above to show it is correctly modeled.

It is hard to find images of the La-5 F or FN with vertical mast though.

A few rare images can be found here:

https://coollib.com/b/326183/read#t7

 

Not sure, as the photo taken from a different angle (same photo by you link, but ive found a bigger res one) but it seems like another one with a straight mast?:

 

 

PS: angle check picture vs angled one

 

[Finkeren]

Looking at those images it seems like it should be fairly easy to determine which type of mast is in a photo: The straight mast is clearly a lot narrower than the forward slanting one.

[BuzzU]

I just want the plane. I won't lose sleep over what angle the mast is.

[Jade_Monkey]

I would have never noticed the antenna anyways! Like BuzzU, I just want the plane!

[ShamrockOneFive]

I really appreciate the attention to detail on all of the things including which angle the antenna mast should be at. Thanks for sharing the info all around!

[[CPT]milopugdog]

It's the simple things, isn't it?

I think a bit of nit picking is good; just means that people don't have anything else to complain about.

[Thad]

If the antenna isn't historically accurate.... I won't fly it and will go out of my way to always shoot down the flawed model! 

 

Just kidding.... I could care less about the crafts antenna.

[Finkeren]

I don't think anyone was complaining or nitpicking. Just simply pointing put a possible flaw to be ironed out before release, and as it turns out it was no flaw at all, but a sign of just how well the devs are doing their homework.

 

All is good

[MacLeod]

By the gathered info which we have, it appears that first serises La-5FN (from 1 to 4th serie) had straight radiomast, which confirms by by a single photo from NII VVS training movie (filmed during 1943, you can find it on youtube), here it is:

 

from_nii_vvs_movie_antenna_angle_check.jpg

 

 

Can you provide a link or the name of it? Would love to watch it, i see it's from studya krylya rossii, and there's a lot there to watch, which I will, but wanted to know which one is this specifically!

 

I just want the plane. I won't lose sleep over what angle the mast is.

 

That's what she said! 

[=FB=VikS]

Can you provide a link or the name of it? Would love to watch it, i see it's from studya krylya rossii, and there's a lot there to watch, which I will, but wanted to know which one is this specifically!

 

here is it: 

 

[Majster]

I watched the movie above. It is a pity that there are so few publications available in the form of a film on the internet about Russian aviation. Meanwhile, many publications of the Allied aircraft of the West. I am waiting for 5FN and 39L. Hello everyone officially and greetings.

This is my first post. I'm not a polyglot either.

[MacLeod]

Thanks bro!!

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

Hiding/banning history is not the best way to show people why something was wrong or not.

[Edited]

Edited October 9, 2017 by Bearcat

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

Thanks for the answers Viks

 

Some forum members (myself included) have wondered about the possibility of having the F version of the engine in this FN series 2 airframe as a modification, so it would be a mid 1943 La-5F. Would this be plausible? I mean if there was some series of La-5F which shared the same fuselage and wings with this early series FN. I recognize it would mean extra work in terms of 3D model (engine cowl and exhaust shutters), and also flight model though.

[Raptorattacker]

But... but.... that would mean we'd have to wait LONGER for it's implementation!!!!! sob!... sob!...... snuffle........ wiping of back of hand over nose whilst sniffing!!......

 

 

 

Good idea though!

Ha! Ha! Nice one.

Edited October 9, 2017 by Raptorattacker

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

I would have loved to see the late F and early FN Model as a single Aircraft. Since the Engine and Cowling are the only real difference (including one changed lever in the Cockpit) it could have been a bit more Attractive for intermediate Scenarios. 

 

Like this it will virtually be unavailable on most MP Servers most of the time.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

No reason why it should be the same aircraft when we have two Bf-109F, two He-111H and three Bf-109G as separate ones.

 

Type 37 and Type 39 are different aircraft officially, and our La-5 already is an early series one so overall the differences will be felt. Even if there aren't too many, a new engine, new controls and new canopy justify the sale.

Edited October 10, 2017 by 216th_Lucas_From_Hell

[ITAF_Rani]

LA5FN great plane..and really dangerous for LW pilots.