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Posted (edited)

Just a thing: I hope we will see in the game the reference to the official japanese nomenclature (even just the english translation, no need for having kanji everywhere). It would be nice to have them instead the reference to the allied code names (unless the material is made to reproduce an allied point of view for exapmle in missions etc. etc.).

Edited by Alexmarine28
  • Upvote 1
=362nd_FS=Hiromachi
Posted

Updated first post with few new documents. 

Posted

Museums typically DO NOT offer their examples for use by sim developers WITHOUT major financial offerings. Which I cannot afford. 99% of the time they just ignore my requests. If anyone can get me in the door with a camera and a tape measure that's great, but I have tried for years and gotten nowhere. Neither Planes of Fame or any other museum or collection is very welcoming to me climbing around their cockpits taking pictures for a commercial project they are not involved with and without a $1 million insurance policy. I got access to the P-40 at Yanks in Chino and the whole effort was a hassle and a disaster, so not looking to repeat that again. But again, if any of you have access or can make it happen I am willing to show up or hire you to help do the research, but I'm not going that route myself at the moment.

 

Jason

In refrance to this post my father recently sold a gryphon spitfire engine to the Paul Allan collection I might be able to pull some strings for pictures and info on his aircraft.

HelveticKiwi
Posted (edited)

Basic setup of a D3A1 Vals cockpit layout and val gunner position.

Do note that a vals gunner seat was a swivel seat. which with the canopy behind closed he would swivel around and focus on the radio communications and navigations, as well as using the bombsight


i also had the chance to go inside a being restored TBM and i have photos of the interior gun crew positions as well as of inside the bombay
 

post-126277-0-80172000-1502227256_thumb.jpg

post-126277-0-41177000-1502227263_thumb.jpg

Edited by Kiwi92
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HelveticKiwi
Posted (edited)

Look at a 3D model of the typical japanese level bomb sight used both in the Val and Kate which would be visible to the player from the gunner position of the Val and if moddled, the navigators position of the Kate 

post-126277-0-23998000-1502227768_thumb.jpg

post-126277-0-59722900-1502227774_thumb.jpg

Edited by Kiwi92
  • Upvote 1
  • 2 weeks later...
=KG76=flyus747
Posted

Hello,

 

I was combing through the internet trying to find some info regarding the G4M interior and stumbled upon a few books I think may help the team get a picture of what these machines looked like inside and out.  More importantly, how their equipment functioned and how they differed from their Allied counterparts.  On top of getting the exterior models accurate, getting the interior is something I imagine will be even more difficult.  Particularly, learning about the procedures or gauges that occupied the Japanese pilot's mind whilst in flight.  I think these books (particularly the one on equipments) will be real fascinating stuff.

 

These books were both written by a Robert C. Mikesh.  Veteran USAF pilot who flew in Korea and Vietnam then worked at the Smithsonian for a few decades.  Most of his work covers Japanese military aviation.

 

Here is a list of books he's written on Amazon.

 

*The scribd links provide "samples" of the books, but you can literally scroll through the entire book whilst some "free trial" registration covers the page but you'll still be able to read the pages and pictures.

 

1. Japanese Aircraft Equipment: 1940-1945 (Schiffer Military History) (2014)

https://www.scribd.com/document/210137613/Japanese-Aircraft-Equipment-1940-1945

 

Description:

As a companion book to the previously published Japanese Aircraft Interiors, by the same author, this book defines more closely the equipment that outfitted these aircraft. There are chapters on such aircraft installed equipment as instruments, radios, cameras, machine guns and cannons, gunsights and bombsights used by the Japanese Army and Navy air forces. The opening chapter describes the history as to how much of this equipment was captured and now is in the hands of collectors and museums. The closing chapter has additional information on colors and coatings used in these interiors. This information will aid collectors to more definitively identify equipment that may not otherwise be clearly marked. Experts in these respective fields have been major contributors.

 

Review:

"Japanese Aircraft Equipment 1940-1945" by Robert C. Mikesh offers a unique glimpse into the cockpit interiors and equipment used by the Imperial Japanese Army and Navy Air Forces during the Second World War. It is packed with photographs, drawings, and descriptions of this equipment which should be useful to modelers as well as aviation buffs. This includes instrumentation, radio equipment, radars, aerial cameras, machine guns, gunsights, and bombsights. The only kind of information missing is on engines, which arguably could be covered by a book of this type. In short, this book is a "must have" for aviation enthusiasts."

 

 

2. Japanese Aircraft Interiors 1940-1945 (2001)

https://www.scribd.com/document/208589650/Monogram-Japanese-Aircraft-Interiors-1940-1945

 

Description:

This book is about the interiors of Japanese Army and Navy aircraft flown during the Second World War. It is a detailed survey covering crew stations, instrumentation and other equipment commonly associated within the interior of military aircraft. For quick reference, each aircraft discussed is shown by at least one external overall photograph. Interior colors are also shown and discussed. This is the only English language book of its type in-print today. Fighters, night fighters, jet and rocket special attack aircraft, bombers, reconnaissance aircraft and seaplanes of the Imperial Army and Navy are fully covered.

 

Review:

Couldn't find any reviews for this one.

 

I'm not trying to sell this author but I think judging by his work and reputation, it would be a shame to not at least consider his stuff.  Below are the covers, I could not find any pics from within these books sorry.

 

 

post-69460-0-29617100-1503013651_thumb.jpg

post-69460-0-39548500-1503014086_thumb.jpg

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  • 2 weeks later...
Posted

check out this site for some historic skins of the midway era. axis. this guy did some great research. I researched on there for some campaigns that i made. great stuff if i recall:

 

http://www.asisbiz.com/il2.html

Posted (edited)

1. Japanese Aircraft Equipment: 1940-1945 (Schiffer Military History) (2014)

https://www.scribd.com/document/210137613/Japanese-Aircraft-Equipment-1940-1945

 

2. Japanese Aircraft Interiors 1940-1945 (2001)

https://www.scribd.com/document/208589650/Monogram-Japanese-Aircraft-Interiors-1940-1945

 

 

The first cover looks familiar to me. I have the digital full version of the book on my external hard disk. :)

I also found another book about Japanese aircraft interiors on the disk.

 

Both books in one download:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/hl2maxx8a526uq2/Japanese_Aircrafts.7z

Edited by Uufflakke
  • 1CGS
Posted

check out this site for some historic skins of the midway era. axis. this guy did some great research. I researched on there for some campaigns that i made. great stuff if i recall:

 

http://www.asisbiz.com/il2.html

 

That webiste rips off other sites of their material and gives no credit for what was taken. 

Posted

That webiste rips off other sites of their material and gives no credit for what was taken. 

 

Hmm. Also looks like most of the stuff I used is gone. i.e. all the Akagi, Kaga, Soryu and Hiryu skins. perhaps a swing and a miss.  

Posted

Hmm. Also looks like most of the stuff I used is gone. i.e. all the Akagi, Kaga, Soryu and Hiryu skins. perhaps a swing and a miss.  

 

Ok I found what i was looking for, may save some effort for research re skins on the carrier group at midway.  the skins referenced were done by the great skinner RONNCO, and yes prob not credited at that site

 

a4rifo.jpg

 

Another link here: 

http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads2&file=details&id=3935

FrozenLiquidity
Posted

Jason, there's an actual flying example of Zeke here locally...Paul Allen's collection in Everette.

I'm not sure if I can get permission to get up inside and take photos, but if there's a need I'll look into the prospect...can't hurt to ask.

They might be able to provide other information as well...I'm not sure how accessible these people are at this point - but in any case I'm close.

 

Who knows you might contact them and set up an appointment as well at some point.

Anyway, let me know if you want me to do some investigating.

 

Museums typically DO NOT offer their examples for use by sim developers WITHOUT major financial offerings. Which I cannot afford. 99% of the time they just ignore my requests. If anyone can get me in the door with a camera and a tape measure that's great, but I have tried for years and gotten nowhere. Neither Planes of Fame or any other museum or collection is very welcoming to me climbing around their cockpits taking pictures for a commercial project they are not involved with and without a $1 million insurance policy. I got access to the P-40 at Yanks in Chino and the whole effort was a hassle and a disaster, so not looking to repeat that again. But again, if any of you have access or can make it happen I am willing to show up or hire you to help do the research, but I'm not going that route myself at the moment.

 

Jason

 

I've done some volunteering up there with that collection, and they don't let the volunteers near the aircraft either - for understandable reasons.  I am surprised that this has been your experience with museums.  While I can understand that they don't have any compelling reason to do something like this, I would think that the enthusiasts among the staff would see the attraction of such an offering, in that it allows others that will never take a seat in the cockpit of one of these birds to experience something as authentic and close to life-like as possible.

 

That said, I have no idea what their response to a query like this would be.  I would think the best bet would be to schmooze one of the pilots or mechanics to take some pictures and get some measurements from inside the craft for you.  Yeah, I know, easier said than done - and I have no idea what kind of agreements the FTE's of this museum have to sign to work there, so their hands might be tied in that regard.  While substantial financial offerings are indeed a bit of a deal breaker in this regard, if it's within your power, you might be able to provide an offer of IL-2 game licenses for the Museum's simulator bank in exchange for something like this.  They're still using 1946, and while the IL2:BoS, BoM, and BoK offerings don't align as well with their collection of aircraft, it may still provide enough of a mutually beneficial arrangement for them to bite, especially considering that IL2's lineup is constantly expanding.

 

I am sure there are ways to get this accomplished, however climbing around in the cockpits of these birds yourself is almost certainly out of the question.  From your experience, it sounds like it's almost always more trouble than it's worth, which is a bit disheartening.

 

Anyway, I'm probably done volunteering for the season up there, but I'd be willing to try and help however possible.

  • Upvote 2
  • 3 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...
Posted

There can be no real Battle of Midway without Jonathan Parshall and Anthony Tully's "Shattered Sword" book, period!

  • 2 weeks later...
Posted

There can be no real Battle of Midway without Jonathan Parshall and Anthony Tully's "Shattered Sword" book, period!

"How do we replicate faulty Japanese radio communications?"  :P

=362nd_FS=Hiromachi
Posted

Just add static. Lots of it. 

Posted

"Kobayashi I didn't copy...say again! Kobayashi repeat!...Kobayashi.... KOBAYASHI!!!!!!"

  • 4 weeks later...
Posted

I dont know if anyone has posted this yet but teh folks over at J-Aircraft:

 

http://www.j-aircraft.org/smf/index.php

 

Are extremely knowledgeable, and have may Japanese references at their disposal, this includes of course Japanese speaking/reading members with access to original source material.

 

The Axis History sight:

 

https://forum.axishistory.com/

 

Also has a similar cadre of bi lingual contributors

 

I have personally used bot sights for research for games in the past that I helped to work on like War In the pacific Adermals addition and for flight sims that I was an avid member of, granted those flight sims were no where near the Quality of Il2, but they sights above were very helpful in providing technical data on a great many aircraft.

 

Pretty much every Japanese aircraft you could want to model was extensively tested by all the warring powers at one point so performance data can found from a Varity of sources, I would be surprised if the Russian did not at some point test Japanese aircraft them slefs.

 

Their are so many great potential match up possible with a pacific Theater offshoot of this game, just think of:

 

China- Nates and I 152, I16, A5M

 

China Burma India, Oscars, Brewsters, Huricans, P40, Nates

 

Malaya, Dutch East Indies, Zeros added to the above list

 

Above is of course a very abbreviated list but the potential beyond just the Obvious Midway/Okinawa battles is enormous, Just doing a Solomon's Map with out Aircraft carriers would be a huge draw and possibly be an easer development cycle then doing carriers at first, A map from Babul to the Guadalcanal would be a big seller in the states i am Shure. Alternatively doing NEW Gunie with Buna and lae and Port Morsbey would make for fun fights.

 

I am not saying abandon Aircraft cariers entirely just creating an island map with the aircraft would get the ball roleing and you add aircraft carriers later.

 

Pluss Sea planes would be a fun addition to finial have, I figured we would see one or two modeled for Kuban at some point.

  • Like 1
Posted

Some of the best Aircraft publications in the world today (and for some timenow) are japanese:

 

https://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/4893190164/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

https://www.amazon.co.jp/MILITARY-CLASSICS-%E3%83%9F%E3%83%AA%E3%82%BF%E3%83%AA%E3%83%BC%E3%83%BB%E3%82%AF%E3%83%A9%E3%82%B7%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF%E3%82%B9-2017%E5%B9%B412%E6%9C%88/dp/B075YS4YNY/ref=pd_sim_14_24?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=0F1QYKC58EM08CBBCNQ9

 

https://www.amazon.co.jp/%E4%B8%96%E7%95%8C%E3%81%AE%E5%82%91%E4%BD%9C%E6%A9%9F%E3%82%B9%E3%83%9A%E3%82%B7%E3%83%A3%E3%83%AB%E3%83%BB%E3%82%A8%E3%83%87%E3%82%A3%E3%82%B7%E3%83%A7%E3%83%B3Vol-6-%E9%9B%B6%E5%BC%8F%E8%89%A6%E4%B8%8A%E6%88%A6%E9%97%98%E6%A9%9F-%E4%B8%96%E7%95%8C%E3%81%AE%E5%82%91%E4%BD%9C%E6%A9%9F%E3%82%B9%E3%83%9A%E3%82%B7%E3%83%A3%E3%83%AB%E3%83%BB%E3%82%A8%E3%83%87%E3%82%A3%E3%82%B7%E3%83%A7%E3%83%B3-Vol-6/dp/4893192086/ref=pd_sim_14_25?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=STECTYXGFNF2448YJDHN

https://www.amazon.co.jp/%E9%8A%80%E6%B2%B3-%E4%B8%80%E5%BC%8F%E9%99%B8%E6%94%BB-%E3%83%8F%E3%83%B3%E3%83%87%E3%82%A3%E5%88%A4%E5%9B%B3%E8%A7%A3%E3%83%BB%E8%BB%8D%E7%94%A8%E6%A9%9F%E3%82%B7%E3%83%AA%E3%83%BC%E3%82%BA-%E9%9B%91%E8%AA%8C%E3%80%8C%E4%B8%B8%E3%80%8D%E7%B7%A8%E9%9B%86%E9%83%A8/dp/4769809220/ref=pd_sim_14_15?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=1A9BH83496XXMP5GWVB1

 

https://www.amazon.co.jp/%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%AC%E9%99%B8%E6%B5%B7%E8%BB%8D%E6%A9%9F%E5%A4%A7%E5%9B%B3%E9%91%91-2015%E5%B9%B4-10-%E6%9C%88%E5%8F%B7-%E9%9B%91%E8%AA%8C/dp/B014TAYG7Y/ref=pd_sim_14_30?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=1A9BH83496XXMP5GWVB1

 

What I might suggest is to run an add in one or two of the leading Periodicals in the Japanese Aviation Buff realm and see if you can get a response back for more detailed info of the type your looking for, this would be very inexpensive and might yield a ton of info, IL2 is Know the world over for being the best Flight Sim period and I would imagine their are literally thousands of Japanese aviation enthusiasts that would help in anyway they could to bring some of these Iconic aircraft to life the way only IL2 can

Posted

Jason, do you think it would be a good idea to have a thread dedicated to each Japanese plane you are interested in so the information can stay neatly organized?

Posted

I remember reading a few years ago about a Zero restoration prodject in , I beelave it was califorina, and they had a technical manual for teh Zero they had, something almost as rare as the Zero its self, at any rate they took it to get it translated, turn out noboy that read japanese could translate it becuase it was writen in the 1940's and used a now defunct form of "Technical japanese", they eveunatial found an enginear who was alive in the 1940's who could translate it for them...

 

So i supose it realy depends on What kind of detail their looking for, for instrnace it might be hard for them find the info on say a Nate, or an A5M, but probbaly not on a Ki 84.

 

To Do Burma for example you would need Nate and Lilly and Sally info, Oscar as well, their were no Zero's in Burma so that theater might be off the table any time soon, but China in the late 30's and even early war would nneed the same set, of course their were Zero's in China.

 

I realy think the simplest match up would be a Gudacanal Map and a few planes to get the ball roling and the money roling in, and all the Planes involved were extensively tested by The US and British and are very well know aircraft so their should be, at least one would hope, ampel referance material at hand.

Posted (edited)

Stumbeled apon this its a brief description of the Landing light syatem the IJN used to recover aircraft, they did not use a batman, like the USN navy did.

 

http://nauticos.com/wp-nauticos/ijn-carrier-wreckage-identification-analysis-report/

 

 

 

Landing Light Arrays

 

Japanese aircraft carriers carried landing aides to help pilots determine whether or not their landing approach was correct in terms of both descent angle and angle relative to the centerline of the flight deck. The equipment used was a set of colored lights (red and green) which were aimed at different angles upwards and over the stern of the ship. The lights themselves were carried atop a hinged supporting arm. Often, the arm was affixed to the antiaircraft machine gun galleries, either to the gallery structure or an actual gun tub. However, landing light arrays could also be attached to other platforms on the side of the ship.

 

When the lights were in use, the arm was folded outward perpendicular to the flight deck. The arm and lights could be folded flat against the side of the ship when not in use.

 

Each carrier typically carried several sets of lights (4 sets being a common number). The positioning of the lights themselves was distinct to each carrier. From the available sources, we know the position of Akagi’s landing light arrays very precisely, Kaga’s less so, and Sôryû’s hardly at all. The following pictures help illustrate how such arrays were carried and used aboard ship.

 

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=231904

 

https://forum.axishistory.com/download/file.php?id=410110&mode=view

 

 

http://bahia.gozaru.jp/topics/carrierland.html

 

Chakkan Shido To (Landing Leading System). It consisted of 照星灯 Shosei To (Front Sight Lights: Blue Lights) and 照門灯 Shomon To (Rear Sight Lights: Red Lights). The Pilot approaching to the aircraft carrier saw Blue Lights and Red Lights at the same time. He could determine if altitude and course are appropriate by their relative position.
 

Edited by BRADYS555
  • Upvote 1
  • 2 weeks later...
Posted

A reference material I have lying around that has a good bit of info on Japanese aircraft:

 

The Rand McNally Encyclopedia of Military Aircraft: 1914 - 1980 

 

It has a bibliography that I suggest scanning through. I know encyclopedias are a little sophomoric as information pertaining to what you guys are trying to tackle but I think its worth having a copy at hand. 

 

Good luck! As a new member in the Il-2 community I look forward to the progress and direction of your team.

 

- Coleman

  • Upvote 1
  • 2 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...
Posted

So, I was gutted when I read about th PT, and am here to help in any way I can (probably won’t be much). We have a few stellar air museums in Oregon, and from what I gather, we’re lacking in information on the Japanese side?

 

One of our museums works to created 360 degree images of the cockpits, and while they only have an Oscar, there are Press this hat do this too and contribute to a larger overall library.

 

http://www.ericksoncollection.com/nakajima-ki-43-oscar-cockpit-360

 

 

I’m willing to reach out and shake a few trees ignore we need information and would like access to some of the birds? I know nothing about planes, but I’m an architect by trade and know how to get scale and documents exisitng conditions.

  • Like 1
  • 3 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...
Posted

This is the best book I've found comprising Japanese aircraft engines:

 

 

post-16698-0-64310800-1516398387_thumb.jpg

  • Upvote 1
  • 1 month later...
Posted

Japanese Aircraft Equipment 1940-1945 by Robert. C. Mikesh

 

Schiffer Military History

 

is a very good 200 page resource with chapters on instruments, Instrument marking and placards, guns, gun sights, bombsights, radio equipment/Radar etc. and interior coatings and colours, all including Army and Navy variations

 

It also has a nice basic 'tutorial'  with translations and methodology to understand Army and Navy nomenclatures in instrument identifying and labeling

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

  • Upvote 1
  • 2 months later...
Diamondaxe
Posted (edited)

Is it possible to use galaxy/google applications to take pictures of the materials in question and translate to more friendly languages?

 

I will try wait patiently for the Pacific just as I waited for CLOD Blitz. I love you Il2 team!

Edited by [BANG]Diamondaxe
  • 4 weeks later...
Posted (edited)

 

  Pacific theater - Original drawings

 

F4F-4

FM-2 front view and cross section drawing

 

http://soyuyo.main.jp/fm2/fm2e-1.html

 

Yellow wing F4F-3s had been appeared since December of 1940 until March of 1941, and delivered to only VF-4 of USS Ranger CV-4 and VF-72 of USS Wasp CV-7. Thus, tailfins were painted only green (Ranger) and black (Wasp).

Markings of this period (the color of the cowling, fuselage band, wing band, code letters) were systematic. These are described in "Golden Wings 1941-1945 / Squadron Signals ISBN 0-89747-294-2".

fm2g106.thumb.jpg.236dd9aba130370db6fc8bb6155c12bc.jpg

 

 

                                                                                                                                                                         F4F-4

FAOTW 8,715mm(28ft7in)
D&S (F4F-3) 8,773mm(28ft9-3/8in)
In Action No.84 8,839mm(29ft)
In Action No.191 8,763mm(28ft11in)
Factory drawings 8,920mm(29ft2.8in approx)

Color profiles

The first profile is FM-2 of VC-93 USS Petrof Bay flown by 1st Lt R.C.Sullivan. The unit marking of four-leaf clover is painted on the upper starboard and lower port wing in the same size. This FM-2 is an early production model featuring a step style spinner.

fm2g101.jpg

 

 

FM-2

FAOTW 8,800mm(28ft10in)
In Action No.84 8,763mm(28ft9in)
In Action No.191 8,814mm(28ft11in)

Factory drawings

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

8,718mm(28ft7-7/32in)

Spoiler

16751609_juina.thumb.jpg.0a4ce79e23117b13f805a936677ace6e.jpg

 

 

1583268910_rutilantetpropre.thumb.jpg.7ee898ddacf2031cdf92d36df026c203.jpg

Spoiler

hellctfor.thumb.jpg.bbc8df78f36dfb805111a4ac774640b6.jpg

 

970393986_rutilantmaissale.thumb.jpg.43554dfc6c1d529e90ba5cc8957a4170.jpg

 

Nakajima Ki43 Army Type 1 Fighter

http://soyuyo.main.jp/ki43d/ki43e-1.html

 

Nakajima Ki84 Army Type 4 Fighter Hayate Drawings

http://soyuyo.main.jp/ki84/ki84e-1.html

ki84_cross.gif

 

The increasing prototype of Akeno Army Flying School. The camouflage pattern of its later fuselage half was assumption. The aircraft number might be painted on the tail fin, but it was unknown.

 

ki84g09.thumb.jpg.5017cb777e19af2452a06ae7abbb53e6.jpg

 

 

The last one is very rare camouflaged Hayate. The 3rd squadron of the 102 Sentai in Kyushu. A piece of rudder fabric painted in dark blue is preserved in Kawaguchiko ZeroFighter Museum. Other portion of this illustration is assumption including the production type.

 

 

ki84g10.jpg

 

Early production model of the 1st training squadron in Nakatsu air base, Kanagawa, 1944.

 

ki84g08.jpg

 

 

P-51A

http://soyuyo.main.jp/p51a/p51ae-1.html

 

 

 

p51a_cross.gif

P-51A flown by Capt. John Stewart of the 76th FS the 23rd FG, late 1943, Guilin. The position of the loop antenna is different from the 1st ACG's Mustang.

 

 

p51ag03.jpg

 

The last one is the same as my model. P-51A 43-6189 flown by Lt.Col. Philip G. Cochran, CO of the 1st Air Commando Group, early 1944, East India. The red border of the insignia was applied in a short period of the summer 1943. But I guess Cochran's aircraft still remained the red border for a substantial period of time as CO special markings.

 

p51ag01.jpg

 

 

Curtiss P-36 P-40

http://soyuyo.main.jp/p40b/p40be-1.html

 

p36_cross.gif

p40bg04.thumb.jpg.832b5607744d4b4e318f734aed3d8deb.jpg

p40b_cross.gif

 

 

 

 

p40bg01.thumb.jpg.9323c501605e17a6652fcc2d5ff08cc7.jpg

p40bg06.thumb.jpg.9ebc6e9ff76669074b706f9a7db940eb.jpg

P-40N

p40n_cross.gif

 

 

 

 

p40ng01.jpg

Edited by Tomi_099
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  • 1 month later...
Posted

Someone posts this very interesting document on another forum. However, he has already forgotten where it comes from. No more detail of the test is available, so it is unclear whether these data comes from translation of Japanese test flight or US test of captured aircraft.

 

It is worth noting that its Ha-45 is full-rated (+350 at military power). Considering that de-rated Ki84 can achieve 624kph/6500m, 634kph/6650m with full-rated engine seems to be a little bit slow.

 

How do you think? @=362nd_FS=Hiromachi I know you are very knowledgeable about WW2 Japanese aircrafts.

 

 

R8px1AB.jpg

 

qtD0wgl.jpg

 

  • 1 month later...
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  • 6 months later...
The_Blue_Baron
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A LOOK AT THE U.S. TESTS

It might be worth noting briefly that the Akutan Zero tested at San Diego was not the only captured Zero tested by the U.S. A Zero 21 captured and rebuilt in China was also briefly tested (Holloway). The maximum speed obtained in those tests was only 289 m.p.h. at 15,000 feet. However, this performance is remarkable as the aircraft was operated at 2050 r.p.m. (it was found capable of only 2075 r.p.m.) vice the Zero's rated 2500 r.p.m. and maximum take-off rating of 2550 r.p.m. (even so the Zero out climbed a P-40K!). Needless to say test figures obtained at such low revolutions bear no relationship to the aircraft's true performance.

The San Diego tests on the Akutan Zero were conducted from September 26 to October 15, 1942. Intelligence Summary No. 85 gives no indication of tests conditions and provides only one set of data on the Zero's speed. No doubt the information was disseminated because it was deemed both the best available and reasonably reliable. Intelligence Brief #3, the original source, was apparently not widely disseminated because it contained technical information of little interest to combat crews and also because it showed multiple tests had revealed differing results including figures superior to the results the authorities apparently decided were most acceptable.

 

The most important thing to note about the results published in Intelligence Summary No. 85, at least for this study, is that they likely understated the Zero's performance. Intelligence Brief #3 (from which the Summary No. 85 data was taken) states: "It is probable that the airplane in original condition was somewhat faster than is indicated here, due to lack of flush fit at wheel well fairings and cabin enclosure in the overhauled plane, and the addition of non-specular paint." These defects may relate to the 98 percent condition of the airplane mentioned by Admiral Saunders in Reardon's book. However, the test report also reveals a more profound defect in the tests. The Zero was tested at a maximum boost of 35 inches of mercury. The aircraft was operated at 38 inches of mercury for only brief periods because the engine ran rough and there was fear of losing the test aircraft. Thus the aircraft was not tested at its overboost rating (N.B. "overboost" is something of a misnomer, the 38 in. Hg boost was obtained by operating a boost shift lever that allowed and regulated this level of boost). Possibly also significant was the fact that the automatic mixture control was inoperative and the carburetor had to be adjusted manually during the tests. (Additional note: the U.S. notations 35 and 38 in. Hg actually reflect Japanese ratings of +150mm/35.4 in. Hg and +250mm/37.8 in. Hg).

Prior to the release of Intelligence Brief #3 the Navy's Bureau of Aeronautics sent a memorandum dated Oct. 19, 1942 to the War Department giving preliminary Zero performance data. This report gave maximum speeds for the Zero 7-10 m.p.h. faster than the data that was later widely disseminated. Maximum speed at 16,000 was given as 335 m.p.h. Intelligence Brief #3 stated that the earlier data was revised due to tests with improved instruments, reduction to standard conditions and corrections for compressibility.

It is interesting to note that despite the wide dissemination given to Intelligence Summary No. 85, later Technical Air Intelligence Center summaries often attributed to the Zero 21 [ZEKE Mk. 1] a slightly higher maximum speed (328 m.p.h.) and indicated this figure came from flight tests. Whether this figure was derived from later flights tests or was based on additional adjustments to the San Diego test figures is unclear. The Akutan Zero was subsequently flown in an aircraft identification training film (starring Ronald Reagan) and did under go National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics testing (a preliminary study of stability and flying qualities took place with NACA instruments installed). Whether additional tests that might modify earlier performance findings took place has not been determined by this author.

In addition to quantitative data the San Diego tests also involved comparative trials with American fighters. These comparisons allow us some ability to gauge the results obtained in San Diego against reports of actual performance in combat. The two most telling data points for this purpose are the Brief's statement that the Grumman F4F-4 Wildcat was faster than the Zero at low level and the report that the Bell P-39D Airacobra could catch and pull away from the Zero at 20,000 feet and had a decided superiority in speed at lower altitudes ("At 10,000 feet, from a cruising speed of 220 mph indicated, the P-39 still accelerated rapidly away from the Zero").

It was demonstrated above that the 316 m.p.h. figure clearly is not an accurate representation of the Zero's maximum speed as that term is commonly used in western literature. This section has demonstrated that brief U.S. flight tests in China resulted in a set of completely bogus data and that much more extensive tests of the Akutan Zero in San Diego have deficiencies that render them less than fully accurate and understate the Zero's performance.

The conclusions in the paragraph above do not aid in deciding which of the higher figures (332-345 m.p.h.) is more likely correct. Both to attempt that and to verify whether the San Diego tests understated the Zero's performance, we undertake an examination of combat data.

 

FIELD DATA

This part of the study will review comparative performance data gathered in the field during combat in 1942. The author is fully aware that data derived from operational reports cannot be controlled in the same way that careful engineering tests can be. On the other hand engineering tests conducted without key information regarding the item under test may be grossly misleading (the China Zero for example). Despite the possible existence of individual anomalies, operational data may be considered highly pertinent when a large body of relatively consistent data can be assembled.

The Bell P-39 and Grumman F4F-4 are key points of comparison and merit brief comment. The maximum speed of the P-39D is generally cited as 360 m.p.h. at 15,000 feet (Dial, p. 272). That for the F4F-4 is given as 318 m.p.h. at 19,400 feet (Taylor, p. 501) or as more pertinent here 274 m.p.h. at sea level (Baugher). The F4F-4 engaged the Zero in both carrier battles and in numerous combats over Guadalcanal operating from land bases. The P-39D (and its P-400 export version) operated against the Zero both over Guadalcanal and over New Guinea. It should be kept in mind that during the period under review Zeros flying from land bases over Guadalcanal almost always entered combat with their external fuel tanks attached. Zeros in combat over New Guinea generally flew without such tanks or dropped them before combat. Without the tank the Zero would have been somewhat faster than flying with the tank attached.

A report summarizing the combat performance of the P-400 and F4F-4 against the Zero over Guadalcanal in late September 1942 stated: "At all altitudes under 10,000 feet the P-400's can pull away from the Zero (P-400 speed about 360 m.p.h. F4F-4 about 40 m.p.h. slower). Zeros are faster than the F4F-4's at all altitudes and more maneuverable_" (Performance).

In a report based on questioning forty fighter pilots of VMF-121, 212 and 251 and VF-71 concerning combats in October 1942 the discussion of comparative performance was brief: "A Zero is faster, more maneuverable, and has a higher rate of climb than our F4F-4s" (Observations).

In an after action interview given in November 1942 Major John Smith, commander of VMF-223 at Guadalcanal, said little about the Zero's performance until asked a direct question and then replied: "They had much more performance than we had. I think they did because we just couldn't stay with them at all, and dog fight at any altitude."

The F4F-4s of VF-5 commanded by Lt. Commander LeRoy Simpler flew against Zeros from a carrier in August 1942 and were land based on Guadalcanal during September and October 1942. Upon returning to the U.S. Simpler was apprised of the test report that said an F4F-4 was equal in speed to a Zero at low level. His comment was that the report was "flat wrong."

The reports above are all measured pronouncements by command authorities after careful study or related by experienced combat leaders. In none of the comments in the reports cited above is there any hint that the F4F-4 could equal the Zero in speed even at low level. In fact the contrary is expressly noted. This is despite the fact that the Zeros were handicapped by an external fuel tank. The P-400's speed advantage below 10,000 feet was also enhanced for the same reason.

 

Airacobras clashed with the Zero on April 30, 1942 in a low level action near Lae, New Guinea. From May to August 1942 combats between Airacobras and Zeros took place on a regular basis over New Guinea. After the first few combats Lt. Col. Boyd D. Wagner wrote a report on the early actions. After commenting that the Zero outperformed the P-39 markedly in maneuverability and climb, Wagner commented on the relative speeds of the aircraft at low altitudes. According to Wagner: "_the Zero was able to keep up with the P-39 to an indicated 290 mph. At 325 indicated just above the water, the P-39 pulled slowly out of range." Wagner also commented that the P-39's performance above 18,000 feet was very poor.

In later actions combat reports sometimes offer helpful insights into the relative performance of the two aircraft. Lt. Paul G. Brown chased a Zero at 12,000 feet. "He nearly stayed away from me at 350 mph" (Brown). In a low level action: "I indicated 320 mph straight and level at 1,000 feet. Zero kept me in range" (Royal). In another action on the same day Zeros encountered P-39s and P-400s at 21,000 feet. "Zeros stayed with the Airacobras. I dived 12,000 feet indicating 450 miles per hour and Zero stayed with me and followed me to ground level firing. Lt. Martin pulled him off me" (Price). "4 Zeros were over Kokoda and attacked us on the way home. We were barely able to out speed them at 10,000 feet. We were indicating about 350 mph in a very slight dive. Their probable speed 340 mph" (Egenes).

From the Japanese side also comes confirmation that the Zero could hold its own with a P-39 in low-level speed. Sakai relates that on July 22, 1942 he chased a P-39 low over the sea and the P-39 was unable to pull away from him (Sakai, p. 137). The Airacobra was eventually forced to turn in order to take up a course to its base. In the ensuing dogfight Sakai shot the aircraft down. It was probably a P-400 of the 35th Fighter Group.

This compilation of reports indicates the Zero was either equal to or close to the P-39 in speed at the altitudes of the various encounters. The P-39 was in turn up to 40 m.p.h. faster than the F4F-4 according to reports from the South Pacific Theater. There the Zero was found to be consistently faster than the F4F-4. There is a disconnect between the San Diego test results and multiple reports from the combat zone.

Lest there be any doubt, crash intelligence reports show that the Zero 21s in use in the Southwest Pacific were close contemporaries of the Akutan Zero (No. 4593, completed 19 Feb. 1942). Many crash reports identify production dates for Zero 21s lost in the SWPA as February 1942 or earlier.With the exception of a single appearance by A6M3s (30 August 1942) all the Zeros in combat over Guadalcanal during the period under review were also Zero 21s.

CONCLUSION

The field data reviewed by this study indicate that Zeros operated by the Japanese performed relatively better against the Wildcat and Airacobra than did the Zero tested at San Diego. If the comparative performance of the San Diego Zero understated the performance of a typical Japanese operated Zero, this strongly indicates the quantitative performance was also understated. This tends to verify the conclusions reached in the section reviewing U.S. test results. The reasons for this seem obvious. The San Diego Zero was in less than perfect aerodynamic condition and was not operated at its optimum engine capacity or with automatic mixture control engaged. The figures cited in Summary No. 85 and repeated by Mikesh and Reardon are inaccurate and too low to represent the true performance of the Zero in Japanese operations.

The author has been unable to establish the basis for the performance figures higher than the San Diego test results (332-336 m.p.h.) but lower than Sakai's (sources 5-7 in the section Conflicting Data). They are close to the first test results obtained at San Diego (335 m.p.h.) but those results were not deemed reliable. Absent the basis for these figures nor knowing the conditions that yielded them they are difficult to assess.

Sakai distinguished between normal full power speed (316 m.p.h.) and over boost (345 m.p.h.). His normal full speed is exactly the same as the Zero's maximum speed given in the captured Japanese manual. The San Diego test report, while revealing that the San Diego Zero was not tested at over boost, does confirm Sakai's assertion that such a rating was available. Sakai has credibility that is primarily based on his personal familiarity with the Zero 21 aircraft. These additional factors only bolster his credibility.

The evidence assembled in this report strongly indicates that Sakai's version of the Zero's maximum speed (345 m.p.h.) is highly credible and probably the correct one. Additional support for this conclusion is found in an intelligence document issued in 1944: "Performance data given for the ZEKE Mk. 1 [Allied code name for the Zero 21] was obtained in actual flight tests. Although emergency speed obtained in tests was 328 m.p.h., calculations indicate a maximum speed of about 345 m.p.h. as possible for a short period of time" (Intelligence Summary No. 44-11).

 

A Vision So Noble

SOURCES

Wartime reports:

"Performance and Characteristics Trials, Japanese Fighter" Technical Aviation Brief #3, Aviation Intelligence Branch, Navy Department (4 Nov. 42) (extract)

"Flight Characteristics of the Japanese Zero Fighter Zeke" Informational Intelligence Summary No. 85, Intelligence Service, U.S.A.A.F., Dec. 42 (rev. Mar. 43)

Memorandum of Oct. 19, 1942, Bureau of Aeronautics, Navy Department to War Department, "Preliminary Zero Data, 10 Oct. 42 (revised)"

Captured Document (Zero Flight Manual), Joint Intelligence Center-Pacific Ocean Area Item No. 5981, Kwajalein, received 19 Feb. 1944

"Zero Test - Mitsubishi Type O Evaluation, Feb. 1943" HQ, 23rd Fighter Group, 6 Feb. 1943 ("Holloway")

"Observations of Marine Fighter Pilots at Guadalcanal October 16 to October 31, 1942" (Bauer), United States Pacific Fleet, South Pacific Force, Naval Air Combat Intelligence (extract) ("Observations")

"Performance of P-400 and F4F-4 in Guadalcanal Area" (Commander, Aircraft, South Pacific Force, 28 Sep 42) ("Performance")

Interview, Major John Smith (Navy BuAero Nov 42)

Interview, Lt. Cdr. LeRoy Simpler (Navy BuAero Feb 43)

"Report on first action against Japanese by P-39 type airplane" (B.D. Wagner May 42)

Combat Reports (RAAF Form A.108A) for Lt. P.G. Brown, 36 FS (27 May 42); Lt. F. Royal, 39 FS (4 Jul 42); Lt. J.C. Price, 39 FS (4 Jul 42); and, Capt. E. L. Egenes, 40 FS (6 Jul 42) (cited by pilot's last name)

Informational Intelligence Summary No. 44-11, Mar 1944, Assistant Chief of Air Staff (Intelligence)

Books and other sources (generally cited by author's name):

Baugher "Grumman F4F Wildcat" online

Caiden, Zero Fighter, Ballentine (NY 1969), Ibooks 2014

Dial, "The Bell P-39 Airacobra" Aircraft In Profile vol. 7, Doubleday (NY 1970)

Francillion, "The Mitsubishi A6M2 Zero-Sen" Aircraft in Profile vol. 6, Doubleday (NY 1969)

General View of Japanese Military Aircraft in the Pacific War, compiled by the staff of "Airview" Kanto-sha (Tokyo 1956)

Green, Warplanes of the Second World War, Fighters vol. 3, Doubleday (NY 1961)

Mikesh, Zero, Motorbooks International (Osceola, WI 1994)

Reardon, Cracking the Zero Mystery, Stackpole (Harrisburg PA 1990)

Sakai et al, Samurai, Ballentine (NY 1958), Naval Institute Press (2010)

Taylor, Combat Aircraft of the World, Putnam (NY 1969)

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