TrackIR and FFB working together cause terrible stuttering.

[=FCU=PetSild]

I know a lot of pilots who use the popular MSFFB2 with the combination of Trackir and in the world there will be really a lot. A great pity that the devs for such an extended community of pilots ignoring.

[EAF_51_FOX]

I know a lot of pilots who use the popular MSFFB2 with the combination of Trackir and in the world there will be really a lot. A great pity that the devs for such an extended community of pilots ignoring.

 

+1 for this.

[ema33ig]

+1

[III/JG52_Necro_v]

+10

[Solmyr]

 

 

A great pity that the devs for such an extended community of pilots ignoring.

 

 

I'm pretty sure they're not "ignoring" for the pleasure to be evilish ! You guys still can try to provide other clear evidences, or at least, give them the exact formula in order to replicate the problem. I can't do this because my low FPS in game doesn't seem to be correlated with your Tir - FFB2 specific problem. But as some of you (a lot of people actually) know about this problem, it should be easy to replicate it and then things could go well. I guess dev team owns at least one MS FFB2, and also one TIR, so why couldn't eventually be on the same way as you guys ?!

[I/JG2_Saladin]

This bug is real    +10    

 

Edited April 17, 2017 by I/JG2_Saladin

[13Nrv]

+1  , problem is still here ... camera set to 100 and increasing Tir speed in track Ir profile is only a walk around , and not a totally satisfying one ...

Replicating the prob is easy , launching the game as usual just look all around in cockpit and notice how much its "stuttering"  (its not really stuttering though )  .

Then going to settings , disabling  ffb , back to game and ohhh "stuttering"  is gone . Enable ffb again and uhhh  stuttering is back .

And there  s no loss of fps , it s not fps related .

That s it , and already been said .

Edited April 19, 2017 by -LaFrench-13Nrv

[Sex_Bomb]

+1  , problem is still here ... camera set to 100 and increasing Tir speed in track Ir profile is only a walk around , and not a really satisfying one ...

Replicating the prob is easy , launching the game as usual just look all around in cockpit and notice how much its "stuttering"  (its not really stuttering though )  .

Then going to settings , disabling  ffb , back to game and ohhh "stuttering"  is gone . Enable ffb again and uhhh  stuttering is back .

And there  s no loss of fps , it s not fps related .

That s it , and already been said .

 

easy to replicate as that. I really wonder what else can be said.

[=FCU=PetSild]

Too I add a custom video where she is seen tearing up even more with the use of the zoom trackir_z features manually set.

 

 

Note that in the top right corner is fps indicator holds constant 59.9 fps, the pc assembly has sufficient power to deal with 4K resolution.

[13Nrv]

"Too I add a custom video where she is seen tearing up even more with the use of the zoom trackir_z features manually set."

 

 

THIS , your video shows it well , and  it is even MUCH more annoying in game !

Cause what s happening is a "sort of latency" in the Tir moves , so that when you turn your  head , view is moving with a delay and making very small pauses ...

In fact , view is not acting as intended , and it s what is annoying , in the video you see the view "stuttering" but you dont feel it . Ingame you feel it ....

 

The worse is when you turn fast up/ down/ left/ right ,it can even make you feel kinda sick ( like sea sick)  , where as on a continuous move from left to right it s less annoying .

 

Yep camera to 100 and faster settings in track ir profil reduce the "bad effects" but it just reduces them , they are still there , and still annoying .

 

And ,at least with a microsoft ffb2 ,it s almost impossible to play without ffb , because when you cut ffb ,  joystick just fall , theres no springs inside to keep it centered and to get it back to center ,it s not only that there s no more force feedback effects , the joy become  almost useless so  problem is real and  consequences too ...

Edited April 19, 2017 by -LaFrench-13Nrv

[I/JG2_Saladin]

+1

[71st_AH_Mastiff]

try this yet?

 

 

 

[thermoregulator]

try this yet?

 

camerasettings.jpg

No effect, this settings makes the stuttering even worse I think. Only thing that helps a little is increasing the camera smoothness.

[Jason_Williams]

I know a lot of pilots who use the popular MSFFB2 with the combination of Trackir and in the world there will be really a lot. A great pity that the devs for such an extended community of pilots ignoring.

 

We're not ignoring anyone. Don't be a jerk. We've looked at this and did much testing. It's NOT an easy problem to nail down. 

 

I'll let Han explain the situation in a translated text.

 

The translation follows

In short, MSFFB2+TIR5 stutters problem appeared because of the increased performance (weird, yes).

 

Stutters while using MSFFB2+TIR5 (it should be noted that the game performance is fine, it's the view turning that stutters) were in RoF too, but they were almost unnoticeable. They were so faint that only now, when we faced this view stuttering problem with MSFFB2+TIR5, we understood what's going on and found out the parameters and settings required to reproduce it in RoF.

 

This problem was in IL-2 before moving to DirectX 11 and subsequent optimizations, but it was a minor issue as well.

 

The pattern of these stutters and the fact that they happen only while using MSFFB2 (and not with FFB Logitech G940 for example) tells us that the problem is in inconsistency of the data flow from TrackIR to the game while FFB effect values are being updated in MSFFB2 driver. Therefore, it looks like a bug in MSFFB2 driver and we need to decide what can we do about this (this device is very old so it is not supported by its manufacturer).

 

The fact that there is no such problem in other sims means that they use a different effects pattern: we reduced the FFB update frequency and TrackIR stutters frequency reduced as well, but they remained noticeable.

 

A hypothesis follows:

Thanks to the thorough graphics optimization in IL-2, FPS increased by 2.5-3 times compared to February 2016 version. Because of this, a videocard is used by the game much more than before, so effectively that graphics subsystem utilizes CPU resources dedicated to the preparation of a new frame almost completely.

When the game was unoptimized and FPS was low these CPU resources were free and they were used to handle the data flow from TrackIR.

Now, when a CPU is more taxed because a GPU is utilized more effectively, there are much less 'free time' and TIR view stuttering became significantly more apparent.

 

We can't say what can be done with this problem right now. First, as I said, the problem is in MSFFB2 driver.

Second, since the problem is not in our code, we can attempt to fix it by trying different approaches and changing the FFB effect pattern the game uses. This would require significant time and we're having serious problems with this resource already. I think we'll get to this problem, but I can't tell when in such circumstances.

 

So we're aware of it, we only have one programmer and everyone's time is already maxed out. We'll get to it when we can.

 

Jason

[13Nrv]

First of all , thanks jason for replying us

 

"Stutters while using MSFFB2+TIR5 (it should be noted that the game performance is fine, it's the view turning that stutters"

Yup abolutely right , there s no  impact on game performance , absolutely no impact on fps nor fps loss or up and down .

And yep its the two of them "working together "( ffb2 and Tir) that causes that ;  stop one of them ( Tir OR FFb effects) and the annoying thing stops too  .

One more time thanks for the reply , and to let us know that you re aware of the problem .

I owe   2 microsoft ffb2 (one spare ), and i am on the edge to catch a 3rd one as 2nd spare , cos i absolutely love this old thing , i ll wait a little bit though , sure you will get rid of these prob Asap, and for sure you have millions things to care about BEFORE this , i understand it and will wait !

Edited April 20, 2017 by -LaFrench-13Nrv

[=FCU=PetSild]

Hello Jason,

such information made me very happy when they managed to analyze the problem. Thank you for the explanation of the problem that a lot of pilots prevent flying. Have a nice day and I look forward to possible solutions thank.  Pet

[71st_AH_Mastiff]

you guys can also try setting your pre-rendered frames to =1 in the NVIDIA GUI 3D settings that should help.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 20, 2017 by 71st_AH_Mastiff

[13Nrv]

"you guys can also try setting your pre-rendered frames to =1"

 

Already done since the  very start , that s my current settings in nvidia driver for games  in which i use an  ffb device (     assetto corsa for example , there s a subtile change in ffb behavior with this setting , kinda subtile but noticeable, but in FFB feelings not in view and not in bos   ) ... worth the try anyway for those who havent tried it yet   .

But as jason says , problem is    ffb2 old driver related /cpu
...

Edited April 20, 2017 by -LaFrench-13Nrv

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

I have good CPU and GPU, nowadays i do not notice stutters at all, what i have changed ?? many things to remember since i noticed stutters one of them is that i play in windowed mode because g-sync is not working...

[HippyDruid]

Thanks for the information Jason.

 

Also, thanks for taking the time to post some settings Mastiff. But those camera settings were Technicolour yawn inducing! 

 

[ema33ig]

Thx for Infos, Jason!!

 

 

Salut

[Solmyr]

"you guys can also try setting your pre-rendered frames to =1"

 

Already done since the  very start , that s my current settings in nvidia driver for games  in which i use an  ffb device (     assetto corsa for example , there s a subtile change in ffb behavior with this setting , kinda subtile but noticeable, but in FFB feelings not in view and not in bos   ) ... worth the try anyway for those who havent tried it yet   .

But as jason says , problem is    ffb2 old driver related /cpu

...

Sorry for off-topic :

 

What a nice thing to find both an Assetto Corsa and Il-2 enthousiast in one person   And a french people like me in addition ! Actually, if you love old birds, I guess that you could love AC even more for its classic cars, and then you'd simply be a clone of me ! 

 

And by the way I'm going to try it out.

 

So I'm asking myself if I'd better or not to update my MS FFB2 driver... So are we sure that Microsoft couldn't provide any form of support for this product ?..

Edited April 21, 2017 by Solmyr

[Sex_Bomb]

thx Jason for your time.  Plz keep us in touch of any new development.   

[III/JG11_Simmox]

ok so i shelved my MSFFB2 and use my G940 instead.(TIR stutter gone)

but i instantly noticed another issue that may be already known ? but here goes............

 

i was never satisfied with trim responses on any aircraft except the 109 using the MSFFB2(stab on the 109 was fine)

now i have the G940 running i can see and feel the trim operation as i would expect it to behave on AC,the stick position changes and you can see the effect of the trim in flight,im mainly talking pitch trim but the others work too.

 

so it appears trimming and the MSFFB2 may have an issue too?

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

There is one extremely simple solution to this.  Manufacturers, such as Thrustmaster, MFG, VBK, etc., need to release new high quality FFB joysticks supporting the latest technology.  There, easy, peasy.

[13Nrv]

@ solmyr

"So I'm asking myself if I'd better or not to update my MS FFB2 driver."     unfortunetaly , ms does not upgrade ffb2 driver since .....a veryyyyyyyy   long time , we have to manage with it as it is ....it s included in windows as is and we cant change anything ...at least as far as i know ....  

[coconut]

There is a (non-functional) driver for the ffb2 in the Linux kernel. A developer knowledgeable in Windows driver development could use parts of the Linux code that deals with the force-feedback protocol and build a new driver for Windows.

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

ok so i shelved my MSFFB2 and use my G940 instead.(TIR stutter gone)

but i instantly noticed another issue that may be already known ? but here goes............

 

i was never satisfied with trim responses on any aircraft except the 109 using the MSFFB2(stab on the 109 was fine)

now i have the G940 running i can see and feel the trim operation as i would expect it to behave on AC,the stick position changes and you can see the effect of the trim in flight,im mainly talking pitch trim but the others work too.

 

so it appears trimming and the MSFFB2 may have an issue too?

 

Are you saying that you never noticed the stick position move when trimming for any aircraft? Or just the 109?

 

I have a MSFFB2 and notice it move for some planes, especially Russian planes but never on the 109 or 190.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Tripwire

[13Nrv]

joystick position , refered to trim management is kinda different thing than what we re talking about here ( ffb/Tir/seasick/stuttering/view )   not that it s not an interesting subject but : not the same .  

Guys Feel free to open a new subject , and let this one open only for :    ffb2/tir  " view stuterring "    thanks...

 

I would like to come back but ,actually , i m like in a boat and sick , its kinda unplayable ....and i wont use my x52 instead of my  ffb2 , i ve got no feeling with it (x52)   and cant fly with my ffb 2 without ffb ....

 

....if the ffb/view problem cant be solved ill watch for an other joy solution ... and   dunno which one  BUT ....i still hope ffb2 will soon be available !

 

 

 

 

"There is a (non-functional) driver for the ffb2 in the Linux kernel. A developer knowledgeable in Windows driver development could use parts of the Linux code that deals with the force-feedback protocol and build a new driver for Windows."      that s interesting !!!

Edited April 25, 2017 by -LaFrench-13Nrv

[XQ_Lothar29]

[III/JG52_Necro_v]

 

Hi Warra Von Lothar,

 

This post is about Stuttering caused using Forcefeedback and Trackir combo. In my case (in most cases) Joystick is M$ Sidewinder FFB2 with trackir (4). When FFB effects are disabled, Stutter dissapears.

 

BB warra.

[XQ_Lothar29]

Hi Warra Von Lothar,

 

This post is about Stuttering caused using Forcefeedback and Trackir combo. In my case (in most cases) Joystick is M$ Sidewinder FFB2 with trackir (4). When FFB effects are disabled, Stutter dissapears.

 

BB warra.

Hi Maese Necro_V .

 

Iam not use FFB,. but same stuttering, i have with FFB is not activated . my joystick is Saitek X52 PRO 

 

Yesterday night update to the latest drivers nvidia 381.89, and for the moment is not a solution as before this patch, but works a little better for me

 

[III/JG11_Simmox]

Are you saying that you never noticed the stick position move when trimming for any aircraft? Or just the 109?

 

I have a MSFFB2 and notice it move for some planes, especially Russian planes but never on the 109 or 190.

 

i am saying that ,yes.

trim on the 109 works ok in the visual sense,ie,i see the nose pitch up/down.

however no noticable (compared to G940)  physical stick position movement on ANY AC when trimming.

also,i cant see any visual trim effect on any other AC using the MSFFB2.

in other words it doesnt work like it now does,using the G940

 

i believe there is more than one issue with the MSFFB2 not just the stutter

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

Are you saying that you never noticed the stick position move when trimming for any aircraft? Or just the 109?

 

I have a MSFFB2 and notice it move for some planes, especially Russian planes but never on the 109 or 190.

 

I fly mostly VVS and yes, the MSFFB2 stick moves with trim on those.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

i am saying that ,yes.

trim on the 109 works ok in the visual sense,ie,i see the nose pitch up/down.

however no noticable (compared to G940) physical stick position movement on ANY AC when trimming.

also,i cant see any visual trim effect on any other AC using the MSFFB2.

in other words it doesnt work like it now does,using the G940

 

i believe there is more than one issue with the MSFFB2 not just the stutter

About physical movement of a joystick, I have MSFF2 and there's no physical move when changing 109 stabilizer position but on VVS planes with trimms you feel physical movement of joy during trimming nose up or down.

[RydnDirty]

I'm just updating to 2.009 and while I wait for he DL I thought I would check this thread to see if the Stutter issue was solved...

 

I guess not yet but it is good to see Jason's reply.Thanks .

 

I wish I could fly. Been months, and my fly buddies need me to clear their sixes

 

Hope a fix can be found . Good luck.

[I/JG2_Saladin]

Updated to 2.010. The bug is still there unfortunately. It's disappointing cause the graphics are improved once again ! 

[13Nrv]

Agreed saladin , update 2.010 improved graphics for me too (need some hardtweaking to find the right settings  though, but it s just because of my rig becoming old ) , and improved my fps too , but unfortunetaly bug is still there for me too ...

[=FCU=PetSild]

The tearing comes in the latest update worse!

[EAF51_Finch]

just got a MS-FFB2 and I have the same issue... unplayable...