Need Help with Squadron Dates and Plane Types

[707shap_Srbin]

 

 

But I've to place Fw 190 A3 in Stalingrad battle and MC.202 in BOM (and BOS)..

 

No way

 

MC.202 could fit for BoS, but for very late december, I think, and for very short time.

But no way for Fw190 in BoS...

 

[BlackSix]

I agree but we will leave it to the conscience of players

[LukeFF]

22.11.42 - 28.11.42 - Oblivskaya (if Oblivskaya was attaked on November 26 and I./Sch.G 1 was forced to leave this airfield how III./JG 3 remained there till November 28th?)

 

To stay consistent, you could just have III./JG 3 leave Oblivskaya on the 26th.

 

As for the Fw 190 A-3:

 

Please, no 190s on the Stalingrad map. It would be better to add it to the Kuban map. According to this, II./Sch.G.1 had some A-3s on hand during February 1943. That's far more plausible than having 190s over Stalingrad. 

Edited October 31, 2016 by LukeFF

[BlackSix]

To stay consistent, you could just have III./JG 3 leave Oblivskaya on the 26th.

 

As for the Fw 190 A-3:

 

Please, no 190s on the Stalingrad map. It would be better to add it to the Kuban map. According to this, II./Sch.G.1 had some A-3s on hand during February 1943. That's far more plausible than having 190s over Stalingrad. 

Send PM to Han

Maybe it will be only player's unit, you will never meet Fw 190 as AI planes

[LukeFF]

Send PM to Han

 

Done!

 

Maybe it will be only player's unit, you will never meet Fw 190 as AI planes

 

I could go for that. 

Edited October 31, 2016 by LukeFF

[707shap_Srbin]

 

At the beginning of the Soviet offensive they were deployed at the Stalino, Lughansk, Kantemirovka and Millerovo airfields, fighting against the Red Army positions on the east Don river during October–November 1942 the fighters operated in adverse climate conditions (40° to 45° below zero and heavy snow storms) while under heavy Russian fighter-bomber harassment.

Under these circumstances, 21° Gruppo - which had 17 C.202s on strength - was rather moderate in deploying the C.202s.

Only a total of 17 missions were flown with Folgores on the Eastern Front during a four-month period. The C.202s were forced to escort C.200s alongside Fiat BR.20Ms and Caproni Ca.311s in attacks against Soviet columns, while facing great numbers of new V-Vs fighters. The C.202s also escorted CANT Z.1007bis in reconnaissance missionsand German transport aircraft.

 

One of these missions was the escort to Junkers Ju 52s flying to Stalingrad, on 11 December 1942, during which Tenente Pilota Gino Lionello was shot down and had to bail out from his Folgore.

 

 

I./SchG 1

 

The Soviet counter-offensive at Stalingrad erupted on 19 November causing total surprise and mayhem. Four Bf 109E-7s were lost between 30 November and 19 December, at least two of these to Soviet fighters, as the Gruppe was forced back to Millerovo.

 

On December 31st, the 3. Staffel lost its new Staffelkapitän, Oblt. Josef Graf von und zu Hönsbröck, who was killed by ground fire. Because of the critical nature of the whole southern front, operations continued under terrible flying conditions during January 1943 from Shachty, northeast of Rostov and from Voroshilovgrad.

 

In February, support missions were flown from Gorlovka in an attempt to blunt the onward advance of the Red Army through the Donets Basin with two Bf 109E-7s from 2. Staffel lost to enemy fire at Kramatorskaya on 10 February. A few days later, on 16 February, the Soviets recaptured Kharkov and the Germans began a counterattack, famous as the "Back-hand Blow" to retake the city two weeks later. The Gruppe supported this effort, and as soon as the city was back under German control it moved to Kharkov-North on 14 March.

 

With a temporary lull in the fighting, the Gruppe began conversion to the Fw 190 which was completed by the end of April, though a few Bf 109s remained on strength.

 

II./SchG 1

 

The Soviet counter-offensive at Stalingrad on 19 November brought a rapid turn of events. After moving from Millerovo to Frolov and Oblivskaya by November 26th, the Gruppe began a maximum effort around Stalingrad at the cost of at least eight Hs 129Bs, Hs 123As and Bf 109Es lost in ground attack missions or blown up to prevent capture by the on-coming Russians. From around December 6th, the Gruppenstab and 6. Staffel were operating from Rossosh, just west of the Don River and to the northeast of Kharkov, shooting up Russian tanks that were driving deep into the Romanian Third and Italian Eighth Armies, while 7. Staffel appears to have remained in the Stalingrad area with its Hs 123s, flying from Morosovskaya. By the 22nd of December, what was left of II./SchG 1 had pulled back to Voroshilovgrad.

 

In a summary of the year's operations, II. Gruppe reported flying a total of 3128 Hs 129 sorties, 1532 Hs 123 sorties, and 1938 Bf 109 sorties since formation, claimed 107 aircraft shot down or destroyed, while losing 20 Hs 129s, 16 Bf 109s, and 5 Hs 123s due to enemy action.

 

While operating from Voroshilovgrad II. Gruppe claimed 13 tanks destroyed. In mid-January 1943 the surviving personnel left for Deblin-Irena in Poland to rest and convert to the Fw 190, except for 7. Staffel which continued to fly the Hs 123. A few Hs 129s and crews from the other Staffeln were also left behind in South Russia. The Gruppenkommandeur, Hptm. Frank Neubert, was shot down and wounded by Soviet AA fire on 30 January near Skurbiy.

 

Based at Nikolayev-East from 6 February, the conversion to Fw 190A-5s was completed by the first week in March. The Gruppe was then transferred to Pavlograd in the east-central part of the Ukraine for a month of training and workups before moving back to the front in mid-April.

[csThor]

I have to be honest, Black Six ... Reading this my toenails start curling. I just can't get myself to give hints to such a "bending" of history, sorry. :\

[BlackSix]

No problem. I don't like the need to do it, but I've to comply with the order. I'll not ask advice on these issues and make a choice by myself.

[LLv24_Zami]

If someone wants to fly a career with Fw-190, I don't see how it is a problem. No one is forced to do so.

[Lofte]

Please, no 190s on the Stalingrad map. It would be better to add it to the Kuban map. According to this, II./Sch.G.1 had some A-3s on hand during February 1943. That's far more plausible than having 190s over Stalingrad.

 

Absolutely agreed

[LukeFF]

If someone wants to fly a career with Fw-190, I don't see how it is a problem. No one is forced to do so.

The problem is if those 190s show up as an opposing flight when the player flies for the Soviets.

[BlackSix]

In the current campaign you can't meet them and I hope we'll do same for the new career

I don't want to see 190 in BOS and MC.202 and P-40E-1 (in 1941) in BOM too.

[LukeFF]

Obviously a lot has been written about all the German squadrons, but what about the Soviet side? 

[BlackSix]

Obviously a lot has been written about all the German squadrons, but what about the Soviet side? 

I've several journals of hostilities from the archives for the figthers for BOM and BOK. And I didn't watch your data for Stalingrad yet.

But I've a VERY BIG problem with attack planes and bombers for BOM, I know several numbers of regiments, but I don't know any airfields for them.

The same problem is for bombers for BOK.

[Dutchvdm]

I've several journals of hostilities from the archives for the figthers for BOM and BOK. And I didn't watch your data for Stalingrad yet.

But I've a VERY BIG problem with attack planes and bombers for BOM, I know several numbers of regiments, but I don't know any airfields for them.

The same problem is for bombers for BOK.

 

Hi BlackSix,

 

Do you mean for the Luftwaffe, of for the Soviet side?

 

Grt M

[BlackSix]

Do you mean for the Luftwaffe, of for the Soviet side?

For the Soviet side, I've finished work with Luftwaffe units.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Just an idea, would it be possible for you to drop the attack/bomber regiment names you plan to include for Moscow and Kuban and don't have information about, and a list of the airfield names included in these maps? That way we can try cross-referencing and see what we can find.

[BlackSix]

I can't plan to include anything before I find airfields for them... I can show that I found:
 
Bomber units, Pe-2, BOM:
 
39 BAP
40 BAP
46 BAP
128 BAP - 07.01.1942 - Budovo (Torzhok)
132 PBAP
136 BAP - 06.10.41 - Monino
 
Attack units, IL-2, BOM:

61 ShAP
62 ShAP
65 ShAP (765 ShAP)
765 ShAP
175 ShAP
198 ShAP
215 ShAP (6 GShAP) - Nov.41-Dec.41 - Tushino
237 ShAP - 07.10.41 - Chkalovskoe
243 ShAP
312 ShAP - Nov.41-Dec.41 - Tushino
502 ShAP
503 ShAP - 18.01.1942 - Staritsa
566 ShAP
569 ShAP

 

I've no list of airfields for BOM and check them on the in-game map.

[Lofte]

62 ShAP - according to this link - airfield Vatulino (4-5 km to SSW from Ruza). Time interval (probably) - 03-05.1942.

According to the "Battle order of Red Army 1941-1945", 62 ShAP was separate unit subordinated to soviet 5-th (rifle) army (1.03.42, 1.04.42, 1.05.42).

5-th army operated exactly in that area (Mozhaisk, Ruza, Gzhatsk).

[Haza]

The problem is if those 190s show up as an opposing flight when the player flies for the Soviets.

 

LukeFF/Lofte,

 

I appreciate that this is not a discussion fourm!

However, can you imagine the out cry if you did not allow players to use the FW190 in the BOS area, when it was sold as the extra aircraft for BOS.  I think players would be annoyed to have been sold something that they now can't actually use.  I think you would lose more players by not allowing them to use it than those would wouldn't use for historically accuracy.

 

Regards

 

Haza

Edited November 4, 2016 by Haza

[216th_Peterla]

Amid that if they don't purchase BOK they can't use the aircraft due to the maps are only free on multiplayer, not in career.

[LukeFF]

@BlackSix, you can add the G-4 to Stab/JG 3. They started flying them in December 1942, and according to ww2.dk, they completely replaced their G-2s.

Edited December 20, 2016 by LukeFF

[BlackSix]

We've decided not to use Stab's units, there are some problems...

[LukeFF]

We've decided not to use Stab's units, there are some problems...

Could they just be AI-only units?

[BlackSix]

We planned to use Stab's units only as AI

[csThor]

I have purchased a new book on the operations around Kalinin in October 1941 which contains additional info on II.(Schlacht)/LG 2.

 

"The Defense of Moscow 1941: The Northern Flank" by Jack Radey, Charles Sharp, David M. Glantz -

 

"With the weather improving, the Luftwaffe was able to step up its efforts substantially. Fuel was flown in to Kalinin’s Migalovo airport, allowing 1st Panzer Division to refuel. Along with the Ju-52 transport aircraft, the Luftwaffe’s VIII Flying Corps aggressively transferred Bf-109 fighter aircraft of II/JG 52, Stuka Ju-87 dive-bombers of Stab, I/StG 2, and ground-attack planes and Hs-123 and Bf-109E fighter-bombers of II(S)/LG 2 into the Migalovo and Peremki airfields, respectively southwest and southeast of Kalinin, where they could provide on-call air cover and support for Kirchner’s troops. In his report at the end of the day Röttiger could report that, ‘Our own air force [provides] cover over Kalinin, [only] isolated overflights by single enemy bombers and close support aircraft."

As such the listing for the Gruppe is amended the following way.

 

EDIT: Upon further reading it seems as if the Gruppe was not based at Migalovo at all but went to Klinin Süd directly (understandable given that Migalovo not only housed a fighter and a Stuka Gruppe but also was the logistical hub for the aerial resupply and 1st Panzer's main fuel distribution point). As such the listing is edited yet again.

 

Squad No. / Name

II.(Schlacht)/LG 2 (redesignated I./SchG 1 January 13 1942)

 

Dates Squad flew in Theater

 

Konaja (or Konaja, unknown location, use Dugino instead = Sychevka) - probably early October 1941 (maybe Oct 9 just like 15./JG 27??) - October 16 1941

Kalinin - Süd - October 16 1941 to October 22 1941

Dugino - October 22 1941 - early November 1941

Ruza - early November 1941 to most likely mid-December (15th?) 1941

Dugino - mid-December 1941 to March 15 1942

 

was transfered to Germany for Rest & Refit

 

Type of Planes Flown

Bf 109 E-7 (fighter-bomber role)

 

Dates Plane Types were Changed

not applicable

Edited January 3, 2017 by csThor

[PatrickAWlson]

Out of curiosity ... was there ever a spreadsheet compiled for German and Russian units in Kuban?  I see snippets of information across six pages.  Was hoping at this point a firm list would exist.

 

Thanks.

[BlackSix]

Hello!

 

We need more info when LW Gruppen were equipped with Bf 109 G-6.

 

For BOK from July to October we've only 2 units:

I./JG 52

http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/bijg52.html - Gruppe was equipped with Bf 109 G-6 in July but do you know the exact date?

II./JG 52

http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biijg52.html - the same question...

 

And maybe 13.(slow.)/JG 52 was equipped with G-6 in autumn too?

[A-E-Hartmann]

Here are the units that fought during the Battle of Kuban: III./JG. 3, I./JG. 52, II./JG. 52, III./JG. 53, 13. (Slow.) / JG. 52, 15. (Kroat.) / JG. 52.

(There is not much information if it was flying all over Bf109G -6).

I hope this can help a little.

Edited October 9, 2017 by A-E-Hartmann

[BlackSix]

Here are the units that fought during the Battle of Kuban: III./JG. 3, I./JG. 52, II./JG. 52, III./JG. 53, 13. (Slow.) / JG. 52, 15. (Kroat.) / JG. 52.

II./JG 3 left Kuban on the 16th of May

III./JG 3 left Kuban on the 26th of April

III./JG 53 was at the Mediterranean Sea

15.(Kroat.)/JG 52 hadn't G-6

 

So, we need info about I./JG 52, II./JG 52 and 13.(slow.)/JG 52 only

[707shap_Srbin]

http://warspot.ru/2513-sava-i-martyn

http://warspot.ru/7553-sheynaya-chesotka-professionalnaya-bolezn-asov-lyuftvaffe

http://warspot.ru/7199-luchshiy-den-gauptmana-barkhorna

[Juri_JS]

I've looked at the JG 52 pilot loss lists.

 

The first Bf-109G6 loss of I./JG 52 appears on 25 June 1943, when Leutnant Eduard Ullmann's Bf 109G-6, Werknummer 20 011 “Gelbe 5“ of 3./JG 52 was shot down, so obviously the first G6 arrived before July. The next losses of pilots flying the G6 happen on 5 July when three aircraft are lost.

The first Bf-109G6 loss I can find for II./JG 52 happened on 11 July 1943 when Feldwebel Alfred Lehmann of 6./JG 52 was shot down in Bf 109 G-6 Werknummer 20180 „Gelbe 10“.

Edited October 9, 2017 by Juri_JS

[HubertMeyer]

First entry in the loss list I/JG52

1.JG52 16.06.1943 Bf109G6 undercarriage damage 20%  Werknummer 19990 Unkown Pilot

 

Prien/Jagdfliegerverbände 12/II  writes that the first 36 Bf109G6 reached the I/JG52 in the last decade of June

 

 

First entry in the loss list II/JG52

 

6.JG52 11.07.1943 Bf109G6 Feldwebel Alfred Neumann KIA Werknummer 20180 "Gelbe10"

 

Prien/Jagdfiegerverbänder 12/II writes that the first 2 Bf109G6 reached II/JG52 in the last days of June, another 13 in July

 

 

Prien/Jagdfliegerverbände 12/II writes that 13. (slow.) / JG 52 received in 1943 no Bf109G6

 

Thomas

[Farky]

First entry in the loss list I/JG52 1.JG52 16.06.1943 Bf109G6 undercarriage damage 20% Werknummer 19990 Unkown Pilot

Prien/Jagdfliegerverbände 12/II writes that the first 36 Bf109G6 reached the I/JG52 in the last decade of June

 

 

I can confirm that, I did found same informations.

 

 

First entry in the loss list II/JG52 6.JG52 11.07.1943 Bf109G6 Feldwebel Alfred Neumann KIA Werknummer 20180 "Gelbe10"

Prien/Jagdfiegerverbänder 12/II writes that the first 2 Bf109G6 reached II/JG52 in the last days of June, another 13 in July

 

 

Correct. First loss for II./JG52 I found - 5 July 1943 Bf 109G-6 Oblt. Walter Krupinski ( 6./JG52) WIA Werknummer 20062 "Weiße 9" damage 80%.

 

 

Prien/Jagdfliegerverbände 12/II writes that 13. (slow.) / JG 52 received in 1943 no Bf109G6

 

 

I can confirm that, 13.(slow.)/JG 52 never received Bf 109G-6s (unit was disbanded in January 1944).

 

---

EDIT : Information about Krupinski was incorrect, he was member of III./JG52.

Edited October 9, 2017 by Farky

[bivalov]

And maybe 13.(slow.)/JG 52 was equipped with G-6 in autumn too?

in according to "HT model special № 902 (Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-6 slovenskych Vzdusnych zbrani 1944)" and other similar books, they received 14 Bf 109 G-6 only after returning to home, i.e. in 1944

[707shap_Srbin]

 

 

13.(slow.)/JG 52 never received Bf 109G-6s (unit was disbanded in January 1944).

I believe it was not disbanded, but just stopped using "Luftwaffe" designation for a Staffel, so it was just Letka 13. It flew Bf109G-6 in 1944. 

[HubertMeyer]

Hi Farky,

 

please check your source. Prien/Jagdfliegerverbände has Krupinski as Staffelkaptiän of 7.JG52 in the III/JG52 at Ugrim.

 

 

I can confirm that, I did found same informations.

 

 

 

 

Correct. First loss for II./JG52 I found - 5 July 1943 Bf 109G-6 Oblt. Walter Krupinski ( 6./JG52) WIA Werknummer 20062 "Weiße 9" damage 80%.

 

 

 

 

I can confirm that, 13.(slow.)/JG 52 never received Bf 109G-6s (unit was disbanded in January 1944).

[Farky]

I believe it was not disbanded, but just stopped using "Luftwaffe" designation for a Staffel, so it was just Letka 13. It flew Bf109G-6 in 1944.

 

 

You are of course right, 13.(slow.)/JG 52 wasn't disbanded per se, this unit departed from Eastern front to Slovakia in November 1943 and become Letka 13. It flew Bf 109G-6s from February 1944 against USAAF.

 

 

Hi Farky, please check your source. Prien/Jagdfliegerverbände has Krupinski as Staffelkaptiän of 7.JG52 in the III/JG52 at Ugrim.

 

 

You are right, Krupinski was indeed StaKa of 7./JG52, there is a typo in source I used (Bergström - Kursk The Air Battle: July 1943, pg. 130) and I didn't cross-check it, my bad.

[Brano]

Letka 13 gave its remaining Me-109G-4 to the Chroatian 15./JG52 29.10.1943 on Bagerowo airfield (they were not property of Slovak government.Germans lent them to Slovak Air Arms). Same day personnel moved to airfield Nikolaewo and were transported home. 12.11.1943 most of them arrived to Slovakia.

From the last report of Letka 13 commander stotnik Jan Palenicek,24.10.1943,there were 6 Me-109G-4 left. 5 airworthy,1 in repair shop to change the engine.

 

Me-109G-6 were officially bought by Slovak government 17.1.44. Contract for 15 Me-109G-6 worth 3.3mil RM,manufacturing plant Wiener-Neustadt. First machines received at Piestany airfield 11.2.1944. 

 

From 31.1.1944 Letka 13 has been also called Pohotovostna letka 13 (Emergency flight) with task to protect capital city. From june 1944 included in Reichsverteidigung as part of 8.Jagddivision. 

  There was an unwritten order not to attack americans and to save gustavs for planned uprising against germans (29.8.1944). Emergency flight didnt attack americans 16.6.1944,when they bombed our capital Bratislava (oil rafinery Apollo and Winter harbor on Danube river). They were strongly criticized for that. Germans simply called it cowardness. There was another air raid anounced 26.6.1944. This time deputy commander decided to go against americans.

   8 gustavs from Pohotovostna letka tried to intercept B-17s and B-24 of 15.USAAF. The plan was to climb above bombers,do just one pass and head home. 1 B-24 was shot down and 1 B-17 damaged.untill escorting mustangs (52nd FG) and lightnings (82nd FG) caught up on messers. 3 pilots were killed,4 messers heavily damaged and only one got back home without damage.  Pohotovostna letka practicly ceased to exist.

Edited October 9, 2017 by Brano

[BlackSix]

http://warspot.ru/2513-sava-i-martyn

http://warspot.ru/7553-sheynaya-chesotka-professionalnaya-bolezn-asov-lyuftvaffe

http://warspot.ru/7199-luchshiy-den-gauptmana-barkhorna

 

Привет, спасибо, я читал их, они все описывают события за пределами нашей карьеры, которая заканчивается 9 октября 43-го.

 

 

Thank you all for the information!

So, what dates would you like to see for these units?

For example I can offer you:

I/JG 52 was equipped with Bf 109 G-6 ~ on June 25

II/JG 52 was equipped with Bf 109 G-6 on July 13