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Discussion of Battle of Kuban Pre-Order

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It's exactly these allegations of "politics" that make them not take some complaints seriously.

 

Anyhow, the prop hang issue - whether you consider it a problem or not - stems from the developers not having the appropriate information on the Bf-109's propeller. They are trying to obtain that information to perfect the simulation. That's different from the 190 case when people accused them of bias and cheating, they had the information they needed (or thought they did) from the get go and didn't get any friendliness from the community but stern demands and threats.

 

It's a lot about how you do it.

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Sometimes the communication from the team is excellent, especially from developer updates, but sometimes its not so good. Even if I were to agree (not that I do specifically) with the sentiment behind "all fine, just feelings" I would never write that as a PR/Communications person (and I am one, its my job) as it will surely upset and enrage a bunch of people.

 

I hate the pretend part. If I aim what was said from them official 2 years ago about Mods-On-Mode, Career Mode,............................ ...their stats and source show that this feature are not worth the time and money to doing this because nobody use it or nobody need this! First one the Mods-On-Mode  who asked on Steam forum for example about the possibility to make mods a Dev confirmed this feature is planned two years ago. Two years ago! If the customer bought because of this claim from them. Not funny! To use if something unexpected happen the User Agreement for a excuse even more not funny! Now comes the BoK announcement and include the feature what they said two years ago it is a waste of time and money because nobody use or need this feature according to their own stats and source! What they think what the customer will think about them?  The problem is they not even care simple as that: "If you don't like it don't buy it!" was something like this not said million times! Short said!

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It's exactly these allegations of "politics" that make them not take some complaints seriously.

 

Anyhow, the prop hang issue - whether you consider it a problem or not - stems from the developers not having the appropriate information on the Bf-109's propeller. They are trying to obtain that information to perfect the simulation. That's different from the 190 case when people accused them of bias and cheating, they had the information they needed (or thought they did) from the get go and didn't get any friendliness from the community but stern demands and threats.

 

It's a lot about how you do it.

 

All talk about politics, bias, or something in that direction is on them and their customer relationship. It's not because "they are Russian". There are numerous Russian game companies (even flight Sim), that don't have to face talk in that direction.

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It's not on them that a small part of their customers cannot act respectfully and like grown-ups, Manu. If you think it's OK to resort to offense and slander every time you don't get your way, that's entirely on you. But here we are going OT.

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It's not on them that a small part of their customers cannot act respectfully and like grown-ups, Manu. If you think it's OK to resort to offense and slander every time you don't get your way, that's entirely on you. But here we are going OT.

 

It's not okay, but there are always 2 sides.

Not even talking about this particular forum here, just look around in youtube or other forums, how many people are accusing the Devs of bias or something in that direction. It's standard. Everything has an origin - you can't see that sort of talk about DCS or other Russian titles. 

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It's exactly these allegations of "politics" that make them not take some complaints seriously.

 

Anyhow, the prop hang issue - whether you consider it a problem or not - stems from the developers not having the appropriate information on the Bf-109's propeller. They are trying to obtain that information to perfect the simulation. That's different from the 190 case when people accused them of bias and cheating, they had the information they needed (or thought they did) from the get go and didn't get any friendliness from the community but stern demands and threats.

 

It's a lot about how you do it.

Well, in life mostly it is that both sides have something to their name. When you model an aircraft, release it and 6 months later change it as if you said "Now we got good data, sorry, the plane performance turned out to be completely different", it`s not like the audience wouldn`t react in some ways. With such a revolution like with the 190 FM, you kinda ask yourself if they even know what they`re doing, even if you genuinly don`t want to ask. 

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It is a real problem. Bf-109G2 prop hangs few seconds longer than Yak-1 does. I've seen a couple tests made by the community, but they weren't able to control the aircraft too well. 

And what is supposed to be wrong there? G2 is supposed to prop hang better than a Yak-1. Better climb rate, better power/weight ratio.

The thing that's rather dubious is the controllability of the Yak-1 while hanging, even around zero speed.

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A large part of the BOS/M community is more than annoyed with the quality of the FW190 FM...

 

 

I'm not. I always was and still am annoyed that it was included in BoS in the first place.

Cheers.

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Actually, not trying to be pedantic but War Thunder Russian Bias claims are LEGENDARY. Some of the best memes on the planet about it too.

 

Please also add in COH1 and COH2.

 

One Tiger I is supposed to be good upto Four Shermans according to numerous sources.  When players couldn't beat 3 Shermans with 1 Tiger I....  you can imagine the outcry. 

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Actually, not trying to be pedantic but War Thunder Russian Bias claims are LEGENDARY. Some of the best memes on the planet about it too.

 

Yeah because there is one. Extreme one. I am not going to argue about it. Actually this also hurts other Sims, because people kinda expect something in that direction, after playing War Thunder.

 

 

 

I can understand why people get upset, but by the same token I doubt people would be as militant about a bad $75 meal at a restaurant as they are about these games sometimes. People buy automobiles for many thousands of dollars that have problems that threaten their life, but don't get as angry as what I have seen regarding the FW 190! The competitive nature of Air Combat gets people really fired up I think.

 

Well, count me as one that gets very angry when a 75 bucks meal is not good. If i'd order a Fugu, but get a perch that looks like one, i'd get very upset (-->Fw190)

About cars it's no different..i love my own car, but i researched ages before i bought it. About  certain other cars, i sometimes have to drive with....i hate it, and can get very annoyed by badly designed stuff.

Not that range of choice regarding flight sims, unfortunately

Edited by II./JG77_Manu*

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“Don’t give that which is holy to the dogs, neither throw your pearls before the pigs, lest perhaps they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces."

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Power to weight is about the same, just propeller does better at low speeds. Just saying :)

Not really. G2 has 1,8 kg/hp, Yak1 has 1,97 (empty weight). Thats 10% difference, which is quite huge in flying terms. 

 

Now that the word is out that the A3 will be reviewed with the A5 development each customer will have to decide whether that is 'good enough' and vote with his/her wallet.

I agree. Problem is, a lot of people don't or didn't know yet, because it wasn't communicated properly. That's all i was saying from the beginning in here

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Not really. G2 has 1,8 kg/hp, Yak1 has 1,97 (empty weight). Thats 10% difference, which is quite huge in flying terms. 

 

 

Sorry to be that guy :blush: but when you compare empty weights its actually 1.877 kg/hp  for Yak-1 and 1.897 kg/hp for 109-G2. So thats 1.01% less for the Yak. (better)

Minimum weight: 1.972 kg/hp Yak-1 and 2.022 kg/hp 109-G2 resulting in 1.03% less for the Yak. Figures are ingame specifications.

That being said climbrate is of course more that just power to weight but power to weight hits the most on vertical climbs.

 

I made a comparison regarding prophang of 109-F4 (~5% less kg/hp than Yak-1) and Yak-1 one week ago to demystify the issue a little, you can watch it here:

 

https://youtu.be/QInZpgGbggg?t=13m41s

 

So long, so off-topic, sorry. :biggrin:

I'm with you on the other parts btw, Manu.

Edited by 216th_Jordan

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Jordan,

there is people will not going to preorder BoK because of these problems about DM and MG151 for ex., and what you says is like a joke because the next step, should have to be buy a real Pe-2 just to shoot it down, testing the real MG151. People here is not asking for the moon but just for a check, don't ask for the moon yourself too.

 

 

This is not an evidence? May be not, but enough for an answer that's not just an "only emotions", yes. Please help us to promote BoK, first of all with silent people who are not posting here, like our virtual squadron comrades for ex.

 

You  are right ,I like WWII air combat simulatión,  and I like most realistic as possible, but  I wouldn't like that my money would used for inflate the patriotism of other nations, and  finance to people who are trying to inculcate political messages in the game.

 
When the devs, show that they are honest,  and neutral, .. I would buy the Bok whitout hesitation.
 
You have a PM.
Edited by Bearcat
Accusations of dishonesty on the part of the development team
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When the devs, show that they are honest,  and neutral, .. I would buy the Bok whitout hesitation.

 

What a perfect example.............. :rolleyes:  

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I hate the pretend part. If I aim what was said from them official 2 years ago about Mods-On-Mode, Career Mode,............................ ...their stats and source show that this feature are not worth the time and money to doing this because nobody use it or nobody need this! First one the Mods-On-Mode  who asked on Steam forum for example about the possibility to make mods a Dev confirmed this feature is planned two years ago. Two years ago! If the customer bought because of this claim from them. Not funny! To use if something unexpected happen the User Agreement for a excuse even more not funny! Now comes the BoK announcement and include the feature what they said two years ago it is a waste of time and money because nobody use or need this feature according to their own stats and source! What they think what the customer will think about them?  The problem is they not even care simple as that: "If you don't like it don't buy it!" was something like this not said million times! Short said!

 

And what do you think has changed in those two years... Could it be that a producer was changed with a different vision? That said vision was then communicated to us?

I found out about it in the English forum, it came up on opcode and then Crump's last thread there. A dev first popped in to request information on opcode's thread, then one of the people involved (can't recall the username) said they had reached a conclusion on the data submitted and will look at it. Separately, and a while later, Crump submitted his own report and posted that he was told this was going to be looked into later on when the Fw-190A-5 is developed.

 

Not sure it was ever mentioned through the Russian forum so I can't say.

 

(And hello there ShamrockOneFive, marketing and comms worker here myself, and occasional makeshift PR guy :biggrin:)

 

I'm glad the efforts there came to some potential fruition! I know many of the folks posting there worked very hard despite some negative interludes.

 

If you work in the comms business then at some point you've also probably had to become makeshift PR/marketing/whatever we need you to do :) You're not alone here apparently!

 

I would guess the proper public announcement will come through a developer's diary released when they start working on the Fw-190A-5. They have been pretty consistent at letting information out only once it's confirmed and worked on, so judging by the precedent this should follow that standard.

 

Agreed. Though maybe they should say something for folks to hang on to until they have a chance to work on it in detail. Obviously the team is focused on other priorities right now as a good project tends to and when they come back around they will be able to review the data and let us know in detail.

 

Sometimes folks don't understand that we as fans have theoretically unlimited amounts of time to complain but the devs only have so many hours in a day to do whatever is a priority. Its a paradox that is important to understand!

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The devs actually worked together with some community members to help sort whatever is off with the Fw-190. They used community help to find a missing document containing the data they needed to fine-tune the airframe, and in parallel also received a compiled document containing extensive data comparisons between the in-game Fw-190 and real life test data outlining the differences which could be leading to the reported instability. On top of that, they have given a timeline for evaluating the issue - namely when they create the flight model for the Fw-190A-5 since then it will be easier to work on the Fw-190A-3 without disrupting the development schedule. :)

 

EDIT: Worth mentioning that they didn't make a big deal out of it, all it took was a couple of personal messages plus a supporting thread to reach this. Probably explains why many people aren't aware that it happened in the first place.

 

The difference was, these contributions were made in a friendly tone inviting cooperation. Though there were times when members of the development team went aggressive on members during The Great Fw-190 Wars, this only happened after many members - including those involved in the direct discussion and others who weren't - had flung all kinds of insults and offences at the development team. Claims of bias and incompetence, personal attacks, conspiracies, snarky condescending tones and the whole of it were (and still are sometimes) daily here.

 

Whatever happened is past though, we've come to a point where both parties have reached a common language and the format for developer-community cooperation is reaching its prime form. Community members helped supply the required data for the Fw-190A-3, a community member was of great help in the fine-tuning of the MiG-3 3D model, another community member has created the official skins for the Bf-109G-4... It's looking very, very good so I suggest both sides keep it up even if they don't agree all the time. Keeping this framework alive is very important for the future.

 

 

Well, what can one say?  On the one hand this appears to be great news, if true, but on the other it merely reinforces what I have said previously. 

 

I had heard from Crump, via a forum thread, that the devs had supposedly told him that they would "look at" the A-3 when they did the A-5.  That was reason for optimism and yet it concerned me that for reasons known only to the devs (and apparently now, to a number of 'insiders' as well) that there did not appear to be any sort of public pronouncement about the decision.  Given the wide interest in the issue that struck me as being, to say the least, very strange.

 

I have no reason to doubt Crump but without something 'official' I feel it would be prudent to remain skeptical.   My position on BoK therefore remains the same.  If I hear from the devs, via a forum announcement, that they are indeed to undertake a review of the A-3, then my position on BoK would also be up for review. 

 

But anyway, back to your comments. So what you're saying is, because someone asked 'nicely', (and I don't even want to know what that means) the devs agreed to initiate some action that would otherwise, not have been taken.  Wow, so how old are these guys?  Am I really supposed to believe that the devs were happy to let their paid-up customers just, 'go hang', because they thought some of them hadn't demonstrated a  sufficient level of respect?  Are you kidding me?  If this is true and characteristic of the flight sim industry as a whole, I'm starting to understand why the genre is fast fading into the background.

 

IMO, a business is unlikely to survive for too long if management and staff feel they're at liberty to 'sulk' at their customers' expense. In business, you just don't have that luxury and if you don't understand that you'd better learn it pretty darn fast or you won't be in business very long.  If this were some sort of voluntary outfit like Team Fusion, sure, pack a sad, throw your toys out of the cot or whatever; but it's not.   In business you swallow your pride and you ask yourself what it was that you did to engender the situation in question and then you set about the task of correcting that mistake.  But then, if you're in the spin business I suspect you already know that.  

 

In my experience, the people on this forum don't expect instant solutions.  They just want to know that legitimate issues will be acknowledged and addressed when time and money allow.  Ignoring obvious problems and/or shouting at those people who have the audacity to mention these issues won't help one bit.

 

Communication can work wonders with reasonable people.  I'd strongly suggest they give it a try.  

Edited by Wulf
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You  are right ,I like WWII air combat simulatión,  and I like most realistic as possible, but  I wouldn't like that my money would used for inflate the patriotism of other nations, and  finance to people who are trying to inculcate political messages in the game.

 
When the devs, show that they are honest,  and neutral, .. I would buy the Bok whitout hesitation.

 

 

Even if speaking in a second language....

 

to go on a company owned forum and say the Dev's are dishonest and biased has to show some sort of comprehension problem with the rules you agreed to when posting here.

 

either that or you understand fully what you say and are flat out trolling..

 

Cheers Dakpilot

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Whatever. Premium prices for AAA games are 60$ soon to be 70$. If you get to that price bracket, you give your customers a premium package or the price is hard to justify.

 

People playing call of dudy also have thousands of hours poured into it. The "exchange rate" as you call it is subjective, the pricing is not.

Edited by Mac_Messer

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Some of these posts area little confusing.  Is "patriotism" sort of a dirty word in other parts of the world?

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Time, patience and hard work are the keys of any proyect to succeed. I trust in the Developer team, their work and gave them my full support.

They will deal(when possible) with any issues regarding all the comments posted above, as they did before.

Regards

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Some of these posts area little confusing. Is "patriotism" sort of a dirty word in other parts of the world?

Yes, definitely.

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In America, patriotism is a seen as a positive thing pretty much across the board.  I never gave it too much thought, and now that i do it is kind of weird, but here the word is associated with the positive aspects of idealism.  You can call someone a patriot as a complement.  You could probably even call a foreigner a patriot for his pride in his homeland as a complement.  Not that we don't have dark aspects of our history, but semantics are goofy sometimes.

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The problem stems from, in most of Europe at least, hardline nationalists calling themselves "patriots". It kind of taints a word which in itself doesn't offer much harm - a patriot in its traditional sense is a person who is willing to commit their life for their country, their family and their fellow countrymen.

 

The Second World War was, overwhelmingly, a conflict won by sheer patriotism across the board. The Soviets who fought back in their home from the brink of disaster, the British who held up against overwhelming odds, the Americans who threw themselves into the fire thousands of miles away from their soil, the millions of unsung heroes from occupied countries who refused to accept defeat and fought to the last day to free their land, both as resistance fighters and in exile, and the volunteers from many countries across the globe who left home to fight in solidarity with the cause.

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The problem stems from, in most of Europe at least, hardline nationalists calling themselves "patriots". It kind of taints a word which in itself doesn't offer much harm - a patriot in its traditional sense is a person who is willing to commit their life for their country, their family and their fellow countrymen.

 

The Second World War was, overwhelmingly, a conflict won by sheer patriotism across the board. The Soviets who fought back in their home from the brink of disaster, the British who held up against overwhelming odds, the Americans who threw themselves into the fire thousands of miles away from their soil, the millions of unsung heroes from occupied countries who refused to accept defeat and fought to the last day to free their land, both as resistance fighters and in exile, and the volunteers from many countries across the globe who left home to fight in solidarity with the cause.

Agreed, conflict won by the patriotism. We won our independence through many stages starting from 1939 against overwhelming odds and I`m very grateful for our veterans. Fruits of that sacrifice can be seen by just looking our living standards here in Finland today.

 

But I think this is very much off topic, nothing to do with Kuban pre-order  :)

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Please enlighten us.

 

I share George Orwell definition, and he is better with word than me :)

 

"By ‘patriotism’ I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people."

"Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality." -George Orwell http://orwell.ru/library/essays/nationalism/english/e_nat )

Edited by 5./ZG1_happy_meal
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The Second World War was, overwhelmingly, a conflict won by sheer patriotism across the board. The Soviets who fought back in their home from the brink of disaster, the British who held up against overwhelming odds, the Americans who threw themselves into the fire thousands of miles away from their soil, the millions of unsung heroes from occupied countries who refused to accept defeat and fought to the last day to free their land, both as resistance fighters and in exile, and the volunteers from many countries across the globe who left home to fight in solidarity with the cause.

Not everyone "won". The same Soviet "patriots" who fought back in their own country, conquered parts of Finland, whole of Balticum, Bessarabia, eastern Poland. Not even starting to talk about the other states and their fake governments. Not enough patriotism in those countries i guess.

A huge part of those Soviet "patriots" were forced to fight, and killed when they hesitated..all patriotism i guess

 

Edit: but i don't wanna derail this thread even more..back to topic would be sensible

Edited by II./JG77_Manu*

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The problem stems from, in most of Europe at least, hardline nationalists calling themselves "patriots". It kind of taints a word which in itself doesn't offer much harm - a patriot in its traditional sense is a person who is willing to commit their life for their country, their family and their fellow countrymen.

 

The Second World War was, overwhelmingly, a conflict won by sheer patriotism across the board. The Soviets who fought back in their home from the brink of disaster, the British who held up against overwhelming odds, the Americans who threw themselves into the fire thousands of miles away from their soil, the millions of unsung heroes from occupied countries who refused to accept defeat and fought to the last day to free their land, both as resistance fighters and in exile, and the volunteers from many countries across the globe who left home to fight in solidarity with the cause.

 

That one took me on a feels trip.

 

Good post.

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The problem stems from, in most of Europe at least, hardline nationalists calling themselves "patriots". It kind of taints a word which in itself doesn't offer much harm - a patriot in its traditional sense is a person who is willing to commit their life for their country, their family and their fellow countrymen.

 

The Second World War was, overwhelmingly, a conflict won by sheer patriotism across the board. The Soviets who fought back in their home from the brink of disaster, the British who held up against overwhelming odds, the Americans who threw themselves into the fire thousands of miles away from their soil, the millions of unsung heroes from occupied countries who refused to accept defeat and fought to the last day to free their land, both as resistance fighters and in exile, and the volunteers from many countries across the globe who left home to fight in solidarity with the cause.

 

 

Yeah sure, but let's not fall into the trap of painting the Germans as being somehow different.  Some German soldiers were clearly driven by nationalist sentiments but the majority were probably just patriots doing what patriots do when their country becomes embroiled in a war.  And let's not forget that WW 2 was in many respects just a continuation of WW 1.  Had the victorious European powers been honest about the origins of that war, instead of forcing the Germans to accept sole responsibility, (something that is quite absurd when you examine the context in which the war erupted) and then impoverishing Germany with reparations and carving off great tracts of German territory; WW 2 wouldn't have happened.  And although the Soviet response to the German invasion was indeed patriotic as you suggest, there was nothing 'patriotic' about the Soviet invasion of Eastern Poland in 1939 or the attack on Finland in the same year or for that matter the occupation of the Baltic states in 1940.

Edited by Wulf

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This drifted a bit much but of course there were patriots in Germany as well, and like in any army they were the vast majority. Germany in particularly may have had more nationalists per capita than other countries but they remained a minority throughout the war. All countries had bad seeds and nationalists as well and some armies got a bad rep because of them too.

 

Overall this is a war where people knew exactly what they were fighting for, and there was consensus among the people of each nation as opposed to the wars after that which were and are by and large political stances pitted against each other and with mixed engagement from the population. It's a tragedy that there are so few survivors today, their insight will be really missed.

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Overall this is a war where people knew exactly what they were fighting for...

 

...well they believed they knew...some were correct.

Same interests funded both sides of the war behind the scenes though, that way no matter who crawled out of the bottom of the pile...they won.

I could type a tome, but not the place for it and I don't want to violate forum rules. :)

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I really get confused sometimes, because my stated opinions regarding almost everything in this site is about a game, and mostly people speak as this was a real simulation of weather, thermic condition , aerodynamic, fuel quality, and aeronautical engineering. 

If any of you bought the game for these reasons , you really must feel pretty cheated. 

However there are in the real world other considerations, like making it worth playing in both sides, like balance. What we fly in is not a real environment , I like to say it is a well simulated one, maybe even the best there is to date. But not real. Most people in here would not fly this game if it was too realistic, and probably those who did would fly Luftwaffe , because historically Russian need 100 more pilots for every german one to keep up the game. We simply aint that many on servers. 

 

 

 

 

When the devs, show that they are honest,  and neutral, .. I would buy the Bok whitout hesitation.
 

 

This..........what.........

 

They are making their living, business , they never hide this fact. If you have a problem buying BOK , don´t do it. capitalism works that way

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When political speeches and "patriotism" going to end in this game of airplanes, so that it becomes a full realistic air combat simulator? :rolleyes: 
I will not pay a euro more to inflate patriotism of other.  i´m sorry  :negative:

Edited by III/JG52_Otto_-I-

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They are making their living, business , they never hide this fact. If you have a problem buying BOK , don´t do it. capitalism works that way

I´ve no problem, ..The seller can fool me the first time and it is his fault,  ... but if I am tricked the second time is my fault.

 

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When political speeches and "patriotism" going to end in this game of airplanes, so that it becomes a full realistic air combat simulator? :rolleyes: 

I will not pay a euro more to inflate patriotism of other.  i´m sorry  :negative:

 

It has been explained several times by some users. As we say where I live: you are looking for a cat's fifth leg. It didn't mean that and even the original DD post got the text deleted to avoid confusion...

Edited by SuperEtendard
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This thread needs to stay on track. I have sent PMs to some members.. and made other correspondence to others. Keep current politics OUT of these threads. If you want to talk politics within the historic context of the events of this siom.. ie WWII.. do so in a different thread in the History forum.

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