Discussion of Battle of Kuban Pre-Order

[Jade_Monkey]

Well, I hope you hear the voice of the CUSTOMER in the end ...

They do, every day.

 

You made your point, move on.

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

Well, I hope you hear the voice of the CUSTOMER in the end ...

The costumer is always right! !!

 

First day class content on any decent University and yet the biggest secret of any successful company.

 

By the way, I have sent Jason a PM one month ago based on Hans affirmation that Devs only develops and some questions should be asked to producers. So far, no answer yet.

Edited November 11, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Gielow

[Gambit21]

The costumer is always right! !!

 

First day class content on any decent University and yet the biggest secret of any successful company.

 

Nope - some customers are scammers, some are idiots. Never bought into that - if I did I would have had to give a client source files from a design I created for them a few months back - they didn't pay for the source files.

 

Real life is more complicated than cliche sayings,

Wasn't true when I was younger working retail - not true now.

Edited November 12, 2016 by Gambit21

[Dakpilot]

The Customer is always right, unless they are wrong

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[=LG=Wicher]

Wicher - my workstation cost me just under 2k and runs the sim perfectly - get a grip.

 

OMG ... dude srsly? 2k $ is cheap for you? If i had 2k $ PC I would run every game in 4k Ultra 60+fps ... Man people here are playing on pcs for about 700$ or even less. Not everone is from rich country you know? I would have to work 6-7 months without spending a penny to get 2k $ ...

 

And those 5k was exaggerated ...

Edited November 12, 2016 by =LG=Wicher

[Dave]

Well I've been developing software for a little over 20 years now and I'm yet to meet a customer who was right.

 

Bo* is being developed by a handful of developers. They don't have the megabucks to plough into development that Activision will drop on their next title with an audience of 10 million players.

 

As a result 1CGS must prioritise based upon the best data they have on potential ROI. I'd love to see what all the whining know-it-alls on software development best-practice have produced themselves from which they can produce evidence for their claims. The same people seem to want 2016 physics with real-time fluid dynamics modelling, tera-polycount models, 1000 actors within the frustum, infinite frustum depth, screen-filling particle and fluid effects, 4k textures, 100ms network latency regardless of geography, MIT machine-learning-research-project adaptive AI, all rendered at 120FPS on 1995 hardware for $50.

 

The reality is that, even with its flaws, BoS/M is the best currently shipping WW2 combat flight sim available at any price. Big software houses won't even touch this market because the financial gain simply simply isn't here.

 

What we have instead is one of a handful of consumer products I can think of which does employ anything close to an Agile development process. They ship early and often and make enhancements/bugfixes when and where possible in response to our feedback. Get off your high-horses and give them a fu#$%ng break already - or step up and show us your own skills.

 

Edit: self-censorship

Edited November 12, 2016 by Dave

[Gambit21]

I'm not saying a less expensive PC won't run it. That's just mine, and it's not 5k was the point,

I will repeat - get a grip

[Dave]

OMG ... dude srsly? 2k $ is cheap for you? If i had 2k $ PC I would run every game in 4k Ultra 60+fps ... Man people here are playing on pcs for about 700$ or even less. Not everone is from rich country you know? I would have to work 6-7 months without spending a penny to get 2k $ ...

And as crappy as that may be for you it is your problem to solve - not the game developers.

It is simply not possible to build a game with the specifications you expect that will run flawlessly on old hardware. 1CGS have issued minimum specs for the game as guidance. If you can't meet those specs then the game won't meet your expectations. I'm not trying to be rude or insulting - just being a realist. 

[Dave]

 

 

... and we are finally gonna get dx11 but we still don't know for sure when and will it change anything. But of course there was no problem for adding battle of moscov and announce yak-1b/ju-52/BoK. Yey great we get more planes, but are unable to play the game on stable fps, yeah everyone is happy about that.

 

 

People need to understand that you don't just "get DX11". The whole game engine must be refactored to use a completely new rendering and physics API - all while still shipping updates for the production platform and porting those updates. This kind of change can't often be done incrementally. This means forking the codebase and having to deal with carrying a branch for an extended period and merging changes from the master branch. Remembering that the small dev team is comprised of people with different and sometimes niche skills this means that maybe only one or two guys are going to have the skills and knowledge to be working on this - and they have other work to do each iteration besides "getting" you DX11.

 

Now consider adding a new model, map or texture, or allowing dynamic cloud-bases or any of the other things you consider to be optional. These are mostly new components that can be much more easily developed without risking the stability of the existing product. They also add the kind of variety that revitalises the product, keeping existing players from becoming bored and attracting new players. They can be developed entirely in parallel and elements can be easily subcontracted out if needed to speed delivery. They provide an order of magnitude better ROI than "getting" you DX11 ...

 

which you won't benefit from anyway because your 5 year old graphics card that you believe MUST render the game stably at 60FPS probably doesn't support the enhanced features.

[Gambit21]

Yep, yep and yep.

[[CPT]milopugdog]

Well, I hope you hear the voice of the CUSTOMER in the end ...

Just for a moment, look at all these gold and silver tags. Some even in people's signatures.

You see that?? We ALL ARE CUSTOMERS.

The only issue here is you creating a scene over what? Being told to spend your money wherever/however you want?

[LLv24_Eba_VR]

I am a CUSTOMER:

 

I would be delighted to buy BOK - I've already spent 240$ (1 gifted BOS) + Yak1b + JU52 on this sim and would gift/buy more if the sim bugs could be fixed instead of new "fancy" content.

 

There are problems which prevent me from "donating" (weird thinking from my opinion @Jason) into this sim, which need to be fixed before I "DONATE MORE":

• MP performance - ~60 players on MP server is lame ....
• 10km drawing distance -  really, I now now how my goldfish feels
• FM & DM fixes are pending while new "shiny" content is "developed"
• .......

Apparently this is some sort of gamble between "customer needs" and "some other needs" (which are unclear to me). Maybe the market targeted in this sim is somewhat different from I am familiar with?? Maybe the 100$ is not worth 6000 RUB???

 

So once developers introduce bug fixes instead of fancy nice "skins, unfinished planes, eye candy, grass" I would be delighted to pay "tens of thousands RUB", which is the currency you are apparently looking for ...

 

Go read The Machine that Changed the World ... basics ...

I couldn't agree more...

[LLv26_Pihi]

Hello all! 

I haven't have time for virtual flying much lately... I really like this kind of simulators, and last weekend i try again flying after long long break at Finnish Aviation Museum, where few virtualpilots demonstrate both new and old IL2 with their PC:s. 

When i go back home, i decided to start flying again, patch BoS and just remember, why this is so hard to start  again.... Not customer friendly that patches rewrite your settings for joysticks to zero. No flying, just "tanking" then...(And yes, i read from forums after patching that i need to make copy of some files BEFORE patching.. And this is not whining, maybe there would be some advices my kind of people in launcher that do not patch if you have done copies from your files, or button which makes copy from those files.....)

Sincerelly,

LLv26_Pihi(retired from active flying :-) )

[Haza]

I couldn't agree more...

 

Well I totally disagree.

I am a CUSTOMER:

 

I would be delighted to buy BOK - I've already spent 240$ (1 gifted BOS) + Yak1b + JU52 on this sim and would gift/buy more if the sim bugs could be fixed instead of new "fancy" content.

 

There are problems which prevent me from "donating" (weird thinking from my opinion @Jason) into this sim, which need to be fixed before I "DONATE MORE":

• MP performance - ~60 players on MP server is lame ....
• 10km drawing distance -  really, I now now how my goldfish feels
• FM & DM fixes are pending while new "shiny" content is "developed"
• .......

Apparently this is some sort of gamble between "customer needs" and "some other needs" (which are unclear to me). Maybe the market targeted in this sim is somewhat different from I am familiar with?? Maybe the 100$ is not worth 6000 RUB???

 

So once developers introduce bug fixes instead of fancy nice "skins, unfinished planes, eye candy, grass" I would be delighted to pay "tens of thousands RUB", which is the currency you are apparently looking for ...

 

Go read The Machine that Changed the World ... basics ...

 

Or perhaps read this as I see exports to Russia are down, if we are talking markets and you appear to be all knowing:

 

http://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/bank_of_finland_economy_showing_some_moderate_growth/9007205

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-35656150

 

If you are having issues, I could give you a couple of $ towards BOK.

Edited November 12, 2016 by Haza

[Haza]

OMG ... dude srsly? 2k $ is cheap for you? If i had 2k $ PC I would run every game in 4k Ultra 60+fps ... Man people here are playing on pcs for about 700$ or even less. Not everone is from rich country you know? I would have to work 6-7 months without spending a penny to get 2k $ ...

 

And those 5k was exaggerated ...

 

=LG=Wicher,

 

Which country is this, mate?

 

Regards

 

Haza

[LLv34_Camouflage]

I've been enjoying BoS/BoM since day 1 very much, and in my opinion it is the best online sim at the moment.

 

Referring to the discussion above, I also I fully understand the difference between customers needs and wants. In my experience, the main limitations of the BoS/BoM online platform are currently the limited dot range and restrictive player numbers, to the extent that these two issues are discussed on Teamspeak every time I play the game. This said, please see my opening sentence.

 

If the limited dot range and player numbers could be addressed in future patches, I would be delighted.

 

Kind regards,

 

Camo

Edited November 12, 2016 by LLv34_Camouflage

[kendo]

It is quite incredible to see in just the few weeks since the Kuban announcement and the sharing of the future plans for the series where everyone seemed positive, supportive - even amazed at what was being planned - things such as the new campaign system and the many other revisions and improvements that were proposed, the massive change in direction addressing and listening to the community's desires. DX11 implementation announced shortly after and in a timescale that few expected.

 

After ALL THAT have some of us forgotten? Does it really take so little for some people to pocket all the gains and improvements before moving on to the next want - which as mentioned above seems to be (for some) 'perfection' tomorrow for an impossibly low price...

 

And when you don't get it you throw in the 'I am a customer' , 'I am right'. Give me , give me, give me......!

 

Well myself and most 'customers' here are happy with the future direction and the devs work. Amazed at the progress even.

 

If you really don't like it I suggest you go and find something better to spend your time on.

[150GCT_Veltro]

.

 

If you really don't like it I suggest you go and find something better to spend your time on.

 

I give you a different way to answer.

 

"We are aware about this kinde of stuff guys, we'll check it. We hope we could give you some more info in the next DD. Thank".

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/25996-gummy-bears/

[XQ_Lothar29]

Y ¿de dónde pido una donación? Si no te gusta lo que construimos, no dude en no comprar. Lo he dicho un millón de veces. Estás mensajes está recibiendo bastante combativa. Por favor tono hacia abajo.

 

Jason

   

[Asgar]

Well, I hope you hear the voice of the CUSTOMER in the end ...

[Edited]

 

Knock it off

 

it's a joke what those PC people consider offensive these days

Edited November 15, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Asgar

[Guest deleted@50488]

Back to Kuban....

 

tell me guys, where should I find the most interestting reading about the aircraft present in that period ?

 

Not that I plan to memmorize every stuff about it, but just to get a good idea of what we will be able to "fly" when BoK is released.

[150GCT_Veltro]

Back to Kuban....

 

tell me guys, where should I find the most interestting reading about the aircraft present in that period ?

 

Not that I plan to memmorize every stuff about it, but just to get a good idea of what we will be able to "fly" when BoK is released.

 

http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/spit/

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

[Edited]

 

Knock it off

Edited November 13, 2016 by Bearcat

[Guest deleted@50488]

http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/spit/

 

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wow!  That already made my weekend reading, as a diversion from disgusting Checkpoint stuff :-(

[XQ_Lothar29]

http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/spit/

Nice!! Thx Veltro

[Brano]

=LG=Wicher,

 

Which country is this, mate?

 

Regards

 

Haza

Poland,I suppose. Minimal wage 417€. If I was in such financial situation,last thing to care about would be computer games. And its not about being from rich country. Im from Slovakia.We are Polands southern neighbor and we are no more richer then they are. Its about having balls to do smtg to get to the money you need,not complaining on computer game forum how hard the life has been for you.

And no,customer is not always right. Dont know which smartarse came with this saying first. Customer is right only if it fits with the contract both parties signed. Otherwise he is not and if he wants changes,contract must be reopened and negotiated again. I advise you CUSTOMER to carefully read contract you have signed with 1CGS.

To participate on this forum is a privilege,not your right. You were not given right to behave like spoiled kids nor talk to people in rude manner by buying the game.

Im a customer too ,and Im fed up with this forum being such a poisonous place,almost every thread turned into offtopic,whining,pissing contests etc.If I want my doze of daily negativity,Id rather get it from plant managers meeting at work.

This is supposed to be fun and relaxing place for grown ups.

[=LG=Wicher]

Poland,I suppose. Minimal wage 417€. If I was in such financial situation,last thing to care about would be computer games. And its not about being from rich country. Im from Slovakia.We are Polands southern neighbor and we are no more richer then they are. Its about having balls to do smtg to get to the money you need,not complaining on computer game forum how hard the life has been for you.

 

Man, I'm 21 years old, I'm studying and all money I get is from holidays work. I'm not saying that this game should run at pc for 50$ and I'm not complaning that I don't have money, but if sb is telling me that 2k $ PC can easy handle this game I think there is something wrong cause 2k $ PC is expensive as f**** anyway, my PC can handle every new title that comes out easily, but in BoS i have to play on low details and that is the problem.

[Guest deleted@50488]

Well, regarding rig specifications, BoS runs smooth as silk and better than any of my civil aviation flightsims did, in my 2012 i5 2500 k @ 3,2 GHz 16 GB DDR 3 , Nvidia GTX 960 4GB, Win 10 Pro 64 bit.

 

My monitor is a cheap ASUS 1920x1080 LED.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

BoS runs OK on a low end 2009 computer below minimum specs. It's all about tweaking

[GSP_Hund]

Gents, having flown flight sims since their beginning (1988) on my first computer (386/16bit), this is the best thing going right now with regard to WW2 sims.  Sure I would like more diverse content not just limiting ourselves to eastern Europe, but more is coming down the road so enjoy what you have at this moment.  I pre-purchased BOK and am looking foward to its release.

[mb339pan]

And where did I ask for a donation? If you don't like what we build, feel free not to purchase. I've said this a million times. You're posts are getting quite combative. Please tone it down.

 

Jason

 

 

ok...

[216th_Jordan]

I don't get what this whirl is about. It seems like some people just want to misunderstand everything.

 

1. You think something is wrong? Do a proper, understandable and replicatable test with some instances and show your result.

 

2. Don't expect that just because you find something weird it is definately wrong (you need to prove it!) and have respect for the developers as they have a whole lot of work to do with A LOT of things in the Pipeline. Maybe an issue is acknowledged but it will need half a year to get addressed.

 

If provided with resonalbe data and tests the devs have shown the will to address the issues.

No conspiracy here.

Edited November 12, 2016 by 216th_Jordan

[mb339pan]

No conspiracy here.

 yes yes..

 

paper 109 (fixed after months)

paper wing on 110 (fixed after months)

brick flying 190 (no fixed)

woobing fm 109 F, G (no fixed)

german 20mm (no fixed)

 

high altitude excessive high speed yak lagg (no fixed)

stalinwood (no fixed)

flaps (no fixed)

pe2 flyng fortress (no fixed)

 

distinguish patriotism from propaganda

 

Enough of this...l

Edited November 13, 2016 by Bearcat

[216th_Jordan]

Please Troll somewhere else.

[150GCT_Veltro]

I don't get what this whirl is about. It seems like some people just want to misunderstand everything.

 

1. You think something is wrong? Do a proper, understandable and replicatable test with some instances and show your result.

 

2. Don't expect that just because you find something weird it is definately wrong (you need to prove it!) and have respect for the developers as they have a whole lot of work to do with A LOT of things in the Pipeline. Maybe an issue is acknowledged but it will need half a year to get addressed.

 

If provided with resonalbe data and tests the devs have shown the will to address the issues.

No conspiracy here.

 

Jordan,

there is people will not going to preorder BoK because of these problems about DM and MG151 for ex., and what you says is like a joke because the next step, should have to be buy a real Pe-2 just to shoot it down, testing the real MG151. People here is not asking for the moon but just for a check, don't ask for the moon yourself too.

 

What we need to show again just to have a feedback?

 

This is not an evidence? May be not, but enough for an answer that's not just an "only emotions", yes. Please help us to promote BoK, first of all with silent people who are not posting here, like our virtual squadron comrades for ex.

Edited November 12, 2016 by 150GCT_Veltro

[ShamrockOneFive]

Well, I hope you hear the voice of the CUSTOMER in the end ...

 

Jason's been listening. His comments during the Q&A session held back in September just after Battle of Kuban announcement very clearly outlined the things we've been talking about as a community are very quickly being implemented. The unlocks are gone, more aircraft are being made available via the Collector series, many wanted the Ju52 to be made flyable, that's happening, etc. etc. Requests for ways to make multiplayer bigger and more team oriented have been heard as well with the Marshal system coming next year. The community was also clamoring for a non-East front scenario to happen sometime soon and Jason has confirmed that Midway is next.

 

We are all customers and lots of us are particularly happy with the last few months. So what was that about listening to the customer? They have been listening in depth!

Edited November 12, 2016 by ShamrockOneFive

[ShamrockOneFive]

Jordan,

there is people will not going to preorder BoK because of these problems about DM and MG151 for ex., and what you says is like a joke because the next step, should have to be buy a real Pe-2 just to shoot it down, testing the real MG151. People here is not asking for the moon but just for a check, don't ask for the moon yourself too.

 

What we need to show again just to have a feedback?

 

This is not an evidence? May be not, but enough for an answer that's not just an "only emotions", yes. Please help us to promote BoK, first of all with silent people who are not posting here, like our virtual squadron comrades for ex.

 

That second was captured from online recordings? No MiG-3 can absorb that kind of damage. Record us a video while you line up in the same way offline (not hard - make him a friendly and line up on him from his six). Repeat the test 3-4 times for consistency sake. Then you can provide a more solid argument that either its the MG151 that is the issue OR maybe its something like the server dropped a bunch of packets or your network was having an issue.

 

It also looks like your HE shells were exploding well behind the MiG-3. Quirk of the track recording?

 

The video is good but testing is how you stop it being that you have a feeling.

Edited November 12, 2016 by ShamrockOneFive

[216th_Jordan]

That second was captured from online recordings? No MiG-3 can absorb that kind of damage. Record us a video while you line up in the same way offline (not hard - make him a friendly and line up on him from his six). Repeat the test 3-4 times for consistency sake. Then you can provide a more solid argument that either its the MG151 that is the issue OR maybe its something like the server dropped a bunch of packets or your network was having an issue.

 

It also looks like your HE shells were exploding well behind the MiG-3. Quirk of the track recording?

 

The video is good but testing is how you stop it being that you have a feeling.

 

That is my point, those are not proper tests, proper tests require a setup that is replicable and exact, also it needs some repetition to show the degree of variation. What is to be measured needs to be described first.

On top of that, if you have scientific knowledge on what is happening you can explain what you would expect, but give sources to it! I would like to do a video about this too but I don't want to waste all my weekends on this stuff. (as I did just last weekend)

I don't get the accusations, I don't say this is right or wrong but if you want to demonstrate something you have got to do it properly.

Edited November 12, 2016 by 216th_Jordan

[F/JG300_Gruber]

I couldn't agree more...

Like Haza, I also disagree.

 

The team financial situation is delicate, Jason stated it many times.

IL2 is a unique product from a small team with limited public in a niche market, and not a big moneymaker like Warthunder.

 

The only way for this sim to move forward is to keep sales going. And the only reliable way to do that is to keep adding new content.

Fixing bugs is indeed important but would marginally profit the project at best, and spending all ressources to do so would be suicidal.

Even at a local level I can see this. Fixing bugs will makes me and my teammates happy, bringing on BoK and additionnal british/american planes will make 8-10 new pilots from a friend squad to buy the game. Multiply that at a worldwide scale and you understand why new content is paramount to the survival of the team and the project.

 

You can say what you want, but the team exchanges with the community is strong, and they proved it many times.

Even now, dozens of people are crying about their Fw being porked but it took months before a solid references backed report was created and sent to Han in a proper way.

Thanks to these few people, we will see some correction of the FM of the A3 in the future along with the A5. Crying and whining in all subforums won't initiate any changes, Han have always been very clear about that, but some just keep doing so, and whine some more because nothing is changing. This is just boring.

 

I have my own gripes about some aspects of the the product, most of them shared with all of you guys : the overperforming of the yak at high alt, it's magical flaps still here despite the "fix" a few months back, the Fw FM very limitating, the Pe2 sniper gunner, random crashes, limited slots on servers, cumbersome mission editor... But after all I spend most on my time on this sim and enjoy it a lot even if it is not perfect. Yes, it is quite expensive, but the ratio between the price tag and gaming time still makes it one of the best bargain of all my library.

 

But a lot of complains esp about flight and damage models are just that : complains, with sometimes a few quotes and a video. No numbers, no reproducible tests, nothing solid.

 

paper 109 (fixed after months) So fixed after all

paper wing on 110 (fixed after months)  So fixed after all

brick flying 190 (no fixed) ​Fix pending with the development of the A5 due to limited time and ressources

woobing fm 109 F, G (no fixed) ​Fix pending afaik

german 20mm (no fixed) No proofs that 20mm needs a rework. Only complains. Do 20mm underperform ? Do soviet armor overperform ? Do Dserver fails on hit registration, or calculating penetration  ? Where is the testing and report ? What is the real cause of the problem ?

 

high altitude excessive high speed yak lagg (no fixed) ​Haven't seen many documentation about yak1 perf over here.

stalinwood (no fixed) ​Same problem as 20mm

flaps (no fixed) ​Again where is the report ?

pe2 flyng fortress (no fixed) Based on what ? It's been monthes since I've been got into trouble with Pe2s. Attack from high 3 or 9, aim for the inner wing and watch them crash on fire after a few passes.

 

 

If something feels wrong, gather some people, do some intensive solid testing and not random YouTube videos, compare your results and send a report in the proper way.

For each of your video showing how things are wrong, One can make two showing that everything is fine. Who is right, who is wrong then ?

 

I'm standing with Shamrock and Jordan on this.​

 

For the other problems they acknowledged being aware of, leave them some time to put that into the already tight schedule and support the war effort. Fixes are on the way, each update sees a lot of corrections in addition to the new content added. The devs are working hard, just see how quick the transition to 64 bits went and Dx11 coming fast despite everybody agreed that it would take many months if not years.

 

You don't want to give them your money because they are slow to fix problems ? Fine, but remember that on a large scale, if there is more and more people holding their cash to protest against that, the more and more they will have to develop new content to keep IL2 alive and delay the bug fixing even some more and not sink once and for all.

 

Edited November 12, 2016 by F/JG300_Gruber

[150GCT_Veltro]

That second was captured from online recordings? No MiG-3 can absorb that kind of damage. Record us a video while you line up in the same way offline (not hard - make him a friendly and line up on him from his six). Repeat the test 3-4 times for consistency sake. Then you can provide a more solid argument that either its the MG151 that is the issue OR maybe its something like the server dropped a bunch of packets or your network was having an issue.

 

It also looks like your HE shells were exploding well behind the MiG-3. Quirk of the track recording?

 

The video is good but testing is how you stop it being that you have a feeling.

 

You're right, but also this test has been considered wihout arguments. So really.......

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/24965-video-test-20mm/

 

Edited November 12, 2016 by 150GCT_Veltro