Tactical Air War

[LLv24_Zami]

Just now, Diggun said:

How are you supposed to know where your rads are set in, say, a yak though?

When your engine overheats, open your rads more. You don`t need to know exact position. I usually open rads fully at beginning and roll them back a bit. It`s easy to set them pretty much to the 50% as default.

[todeskvlt]

Just now, SCG_motoadve said:

open more or close it more and watch your temps.

 

Just now, LLv24_Zami said:

When your engine overheats, open your rads more. You don`t need to know exact position.

 

❤️

[ShamrockOneFive]

8 minutes ago, LLv24_Zami said:

In there we just have agree to disagree. I think it`s 10 times more realistic to have to look at your cockpit few times during the mission.

 

Disagreements are fine

 

I don't know if you know what I mean however. The looking at aircraft vitals in the cockpit is fine and IMHO I'm down with that as a realistic choice. What's missing are things that are not in the cockpit - technochat removes engine controls for example. So I can't tell if I've selected engine 1 or 2. I've got a dual throttle so I'm less, but not entirely unaffected, but what if you don't have that? It makes things less accessible in ways that are not about realism.

5 minutes ago, SCG_motoadve said:

There is a wheel you move, they way to do it better is to assign an axis and watch your temps.

IRL the plane has no % radiator open or close, you just manage it , open more or close it more and watch your temps.

Every plane has info on what temps are the maximum.

No tech chat makes you learn your plane, some people say its unrealistic , but I say what is unrealistic about learning your plane?

Unrealistic is to jump from one plane to another not knowing nothing about each plane and relying on tech chat.

 

What if you don't have an axis to bind it to? That assumes everyone has all of the controls necessary. That's not a good experience for everyone who can't feel the wheel's position as a real pilot would.

Edited October 13, 2020 by ShamrockOneFive

[todeskvlt]

1 minute ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

What if you don't have an axis to bind it to?

 

Use buttons, like everyone.

[KoN_]

On 10/11/2020 at 8:04 AM, mincer said:

Who needs an X-ray machine when you have AAA gunners that can aim through trees!
 

 

AAA has always been an issue on this server . ?? 

As for technochat i would like to see bomb ripple and mixture settings and prop pitch , its easy in Axis its all auto . ?? ( joke ).

Hence why so , so many fly Axis . ( not joke ).

Looks like Red is getting totally steam rolled . Come on Reds let start working as a team . !!

 

Allies lost

Aircraft	488 / 1300
Pilots	308 / 900

Doing transport = CM . Yes . ???

Edited October 13, 2020 by KoN_

[ShamrockOneFive]

2 minutes ago, =LG=todeskvlt said:

 

Use buttons, like everyone.

 

And right back to the first problem. You don't know what the control is set to.

[LLv24_Zami]

3 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

Disagreements are fine

 

I don't know if you know what I mean however. The looking at aircraft vitals in the cockpit is fine and IMHO I'm down with that as a realistic choice. What's missing are things that are not in the cockpit - technochat removes engine controls for example. So I can't tell if I've selected engine 1 or 2. I've got a dual throttle so I'm less, but not entirely unaffected, but what if you don't have that? It makes things less accessible in ways that are not about realism.

 

Don`t worry, I know what you mean ?

 

I don`t have dual throttle. When selecting engine, I press 0 and then 1 or 2 to select the correct engine. Thats how I know what engine I`ve selected.

 

I agree that engine selection should be visible despite technochat off and I hope it comes some day. But it`s as easy to use now basically. 

[Chivas_Regal]

21 minutes ago, Diggun said:

How are you supposed to know where your rads are set in, say, a yak though?

How could a real pilot know that? I think he was just monitoring the temperature and opening the radiator or closing it as needed. It's the same with trimmers. Personally, I set them up according to the feelings of where the plane deviates and the glide sensor. You don't need any numbers, just control your plane and follow the instruments

[Rafcio]

6 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

And right back to the first problem. You don't know what the control is set to.

then

 

[todeskvlt]

4 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

And right back to the first problem. You don't know what the control is set to.

 

I don't know man. I can't help you all if issue like these are the biggest problems.

[Roger_Meatball]

1 minute ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

And right back to the first problem. You don't know what the control is set to.

 

Technochat does not remove the need to look at cockpit gauges. It does not give speed, altitude, pressure or rpm. It does not give engine temperature or fuel levels. 

 

Technochat provides feedback on axis states that would normally be physically felt. It provides weapons management in planes that would have no switches or dials for configuring. 

 

Technochat is not providing an advantage; it is providing a more realistic experience for pilots who do not have physical axes for everything. Visually monitoring lever and crank positions is inherently unrealistic; that is not how you fly an airplane.

[Rafcio]

Just now, Roger_Meatball said:

 

Technochat does not remove the need to look at cockpit gauges. It does not give speed, altitude, pressure or rpm. It does not give engine temperature or fuel levels. 

 

Technochat provides feedback on axis states that would normally be physically felt. It provides weapons management in planes that would have no switches or dials for configuring. 

 

Technochat is not providing an advantage; it is providing a more realistic experience for pilots who do not have physical axes for everything. Visually monitoring lever and crank positions is inherently unrealistic; that is not how you fly an airplane.

Maybe you did not seen this.

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/21029-tactical-air-war/?do=findComment&comment=1010446

 

[SCG_Vieira]

TAW is down again?

[Diggun]

7 minutes ago, =2ndSS=Lawyer1 said:

You don't need any numbers, just control your plane and follow the instruments

There are optimum settings for yak rads. In reality you'd mark the control wheel for these settings. We don't have the option to do this in game. Conclusion: (another) advantage to axis players who can rely on automation of their rads for optimum settings.

[SCG_motoadve]

19 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

And right back to the first problem. You don't know what the control is set to.

Just watch your temps , like pilots do IRL.

[2/JG26_rudidlo]

17 minutes ago, LLv24_Zami said:

I agree that engine selection should be visible despite technochat off and I hope it comes some day.

Can't disagree with you.

[todeskvlt]

15 minutes ago, SCG_Vieira said:

TAW is down again?

 

Online again

[messsucher]

32 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

Disagreements are fine

 

I don't know if you know what I mean however. The looking at aircraft vitals in the cockpit is fine and IMHO I'm down with that as a realistic choice. What's missing are things that are not in the cockpit - technochat removes engine controls for example. So I can't tell if I've selected engine 1 or 2. I've got a dual throttle so I'm less, but not entirely unaffected, but what if you don't have that? It makes things less accessible in ways that are not about realism.

 

What if you don't have an axis to bind it to? That assumes everyone has all of the controls necessary. That's not a good experience for everyone who can't feel the wheel's position as a real pilot would.

 

That is like assuming padlock must be enabled because everyone does not have TrackIR or VR. And believe me, that has been said.

 

But the right way is to make a push forward and give people reasons to up their game. If we did what you propose we would have sunday pilots flying 3rd person padlock enabled. We also would have three different War Thunders but not a single combat sim game.

19 minutes ago, Diggun said:

There are optimum settings for yak rads. In reality you'd mark the control wheel for these settings. We don't have the option to do this in game. Conclusion: (another) advantage to axis players who can rely on automation of their rads for optimum settings.

 

What is that "optimum" setting? Can you explain it more. I am thinking you are talking about compromise setting, but lets see.

11 minutes ago, 1stCL/rudidlo said:

Can't disagree with you.

 

Were pilots IRL immune to misselection of an engine? Or did they get automagic floating text confirming the engine was selected?

[Rafcio]

4 minutes ago, messsucher said:

 

That is like assuming padlock must be enabled because everyone does not have TrackIR or VR. And believe me, that has been said.

 

But the right way is to make a push forward and give people reasons to up their game. If we did what you propose we would have sunday pilots flying 3rd person padlock enabled. We also would have three different War Thunders but not a single combat sim game.

Man, you have many more posts in a thread on the server than minutes on it. Maybe it's some disease. Why don't you find a good doctor. Or take half of what your dealer sells you. Maybe he's cheating on you.

[Diggun]

15 minutes ago, messsucher said:

What is that "optimum" setting?

65% water rads & 45% water rads are conformal and provide best airflow / cooling benefits. We have no way to know when we are at those settings. IRL your ground crew would stick a piece of tape / paint on the control wheel.

[messsucher]

48 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

Disagreements are fine

 

I don't know if you know what I mean however. The looking at aircraft vitals in the cockpit is fine and IMHO I'm down with that as a realistic choice. What's missing are things that are not in the cockpit - technochat removes engine controls for example. So I can't tell if I've selected engine 1 or 2. I've got a dual throttle so I'm less, but not entirely unaffected, but what if you don't have that? It makes things less accessible in ways that are not about realism.

 

What if you don't have an axis to bind it to? That assumes everyone has all of the controls necessary. That's not a good experience for everyone who can't feel the wheel's position as a real pilot would.

 

There are a ton of arcade servers. A new player can go to any of them, plenty of room in them. Why it is such a head explody if a one single full realistic server appear? Why a new player must come to HC server where supposedly the most skilled pilots are where a new player have zero chance to even know who and how he was killed? What you are suggesting for a new player to do?

[Chivas_Regal]

20 minutes ago, messsucher said:

Were pilots IRL immune to misselection of an engine? Or did they get automagic floating text confirming the engine was selected?

I once read about a plane crash where a pilot suffered damage to one engine, but then mistakenly disabled the one that was working. A mistake in choosing an engine is just as realistic as making the right choice

[2/JG26_rudidlo]

16 minutes ago, messsucher said:

Were pilots IRL immune to misselection of an engine? Or did they get automagic floating text confirming the engine was selected?

Pilots didn't have engine selection. They had handles separately for each engine.
I don't have them.
I'm sorry that your brain is not able to understand the difference.

[Rafcio]

9 minutes ago, messsucher said:

 

Oi, one more loser getting personal ? Sorry if you had no arguments left, but you should blame of that yourself, not become angry like a little poor boy.

 

Play on TAW. If you don't like it, find another server. Don't clutter this thread with unnecessary posts. I think that technochat on TAW will be off. This is what the regular players of this server want. That's all

[=LG/F=Kathon]

There was strange error "Undefined object" during loading the mission #35. Let me know if you find any bugs or strange behavior during this mission. 

[ShamrockOneFive]

33 minutes ago, SCG_motoadve said:

Just watch your temps , like pilots do IRL.

 

The issue is interface not procedure. IRL is what I am interested in. If there's a wheel that controls the interface I would know as a pilot where it was by tactile feedback. That's not always possible here.

 

9 minutes ago, messsucher said:

 

There are a ton of arcade servers. A new player can go to any of them, plenty of room in them. Why it is such a head explody if a one single full realistic server appear? Why a new player must come to HC server where supposedly the most skilled pilots are where a new player have zero chance to even know who and how he was killed? What you are suggesting for a new player to do?

 

Different argument. One is about challenge of experience (which TAW is GREAT for) and the other is about challenge of interface. I'm talking about the later.

[messsucher]

2 minutes ago, Diggun said:

65% water rads & 45% water rads are conformal and provide best airflow / cooling benefits. We have no way to know when we are at those settings. IRL your ground crew would stick a piece of tape / paint on the control wheel.

 

Yeah, that is a compromise for say, average pilot. It is not a magical setting. It could be 5% either way without making a difference because there should be a safety margin that the engine does not overheat too quick because of a little bit wrong setting. It could be 10% either way. You would get 10% more cooling and 10% more drag or vice versa. It is just a safe setting for the engine and the average pilot. In reality you still had to check temps because temps a major thing in those old engines. You don't want your engine break mid flight, and them engines are not reliable like engine in your car, of which temps you also must keep in check, even though you have alarm light for high temps.

[Chivas_Regal]

7 minutes ago, Diggun said:

65% water rads & 45% water rads are conformal and provide best airflow / cooling benefits. We have no way to know when we are at those settings. IRL your ground crew would stick a piece of tape / paint on the control wheel.

I saw the neutral position mark on the P-40, but I didn't see it on the Yak. It seems to me that in reality, the priority for the pilot was the ability to maintain the engine's performance in order to return home. And so he was more concerned about the correct temperature regime, which depends on the ambient temperature and the speed of blowing. In battle, if you needed a speed boost, the radiators were covered, but this was a risk of overheating. There's nothing stopping you from doing the same.

I doubt that the pilots generally operated with the concept of optimal radiator settings. in horizontal flight, they are alone, in the set of exhaustion others, in the dive third, for maximum speed fourth. And all this also depends on external factors. Automated engine and radiator control on German aircraft is definitely an advantage. And flights without technochat make you realize this in full. Unfortunately this was also the case in real life

[messsucher]

14 minutes ago, 1stCL/rudidlo said:

Pilots didn't have engine selection. They had handles separately for each engine.
I don't have them.
I'm sorry that your brain is not able to understand the difference.

 

Time to up your game? And manners too.

[richarrrd]

5 hours ago, messsucher said:

I would not have a problem with most of that. I have a printer, I could print maps. There is things I would discuss however. I would discuss the zoom thing because identifying and spotting is maybe harder in this game without it, and even with it, than in real life. No zoom would not make me leave the server anyway.

 

Dying would mean you lose your awards, promotions, and kill counter reset, and then start with a "fresh pilot". If there would be like 1000 players, then dying and being removed of the campaign completely could be viable, would have nothing against it, would welcome such a change.

 

If your base is destroyed you are assigned to another base. Your game does not end there. Air force will not send you to home. Self enforced Ironman I played in original IL-2 already, if died, then delete campaign and start a new campaign.

 

In SEOW I flew what was assigned to me, that was natural. The commander is the boss, I am just a pilot. I am not a commander. The same goes with an airfield. A pilot does not chose an airfield. In offline modes I rolled a dice to chose theater and squadron, which I by the way do in this game too. I am not a boss.

 

I think in SEOW text chat was not possible. You used radio coms, and only with your wing, unless you were a squadron leader or wing leader and had to communicate with other leaders. It was not a problem at all. Was natural.

 

I liked those your changes overal, good stuff ?

 

Awesome, let's get this implemented ASAP.

 

While we're on riding this wave of improving the game through realism. I have some additional thoughts:

 

• Ban keyboard and mouse bindings entirely. Map to a HOTAS or custom hardware. Real pilots don't have keyboards and mice.
• The notifications for battle conditions (e.g. "enemy aircraft spotted at grid xyz" or "factory in grid abc is under attack") should be removed
• On screen compass in the lower left. Just read the compass on your panel.
• G-meter is basically just training wheels for babies and the non-hardcore. Learn your plane better, and do some basic math in your head to gauge airspeed vs. vertical speed indicator, attitude, etc. That will give you a clear indication of G-related risks. I mean the game is calculating G factors for the UI, so you can do the same math in your head.
• Bomb sight view should be modded. It's all clickable, and it should be mapped to hardware only. I think there's a windspeed indicator in the UI as well, which is nonsense.
• No twist axis sticks allowed. Pedals only. Not sure how enforceable this is, but it's worth excluding as many players as we can.
• Let's get rid of all server messages and UI. When someone connects, gets booted for idle, exits, etc. It's ridiculous.

 

Anyway, happy to keep contributing meaningful and good ideas to improve this video game realistic simulation, and make it hardcore wherever possible. Git Gud, amirite?

 

 

[messsucher]

9 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

The issue is interface not procedure. IRL is what I am interested in. If there's a wheel that controls the interface I would know as a pilot where it was by tactile feedback. That's not always possible here.

 

 

Different argument. One is about challenge of experience (which TAW is GREAT for) and the other is about challenge of interface. I'm talking about the later.

 

It does not matter whether you have tactile feedback or not. You must keep temps of the engine in check, and you do that by checking meters. When the engine give you physical or sound feedback you failed already, damage is done, after that it is just a matter of how big damage.

[2/JG26_rudidlo]

3 minutes ago, messsucher said:

Time to up your game?

If you intend to buy me multi throttle lever, solution for four engines could be fine, thanks. 

[Piciu]

50 minutes ago, Roger_Meatball said:

Technochat provides feedback on axis states that would normally be physically felt. It provides weapons management in planes that would have no switches or dials for configuring. 

OK, technochat discussion started shortly, as I can see, but it's very "dynamic" and developing. 

So I'll put here my 3 cents. 

Most of you are saying about technoinformation about, axes position, engine selection, bombs, weapons handling, plane hardware in general. 

I'm wondering why nobody of you will say (maybe I missed something) that technochat is providing also immediate information about engine overheating, state of combat, emergency or continuous power, very important thing during dogfight like damage information in your plane like fuel leak, engine damage (first or second), oxygen loosing, systems damage etc. With techno we are immediately informed what is happening in our bird. Without techno this info can be realized later or never. This could have an effect for example the return to base, jump, continue or not the fight, generaly speaking our all decisions. 

Realism? immersion? 

For your consideration. 

Cheers. 

 

[2/JG26_rudidlo]

3 minutes ago, richarrrd said:

Bomb sight view should be modded.

Bomb sights are not historically accurate in contrary to original Sturmovik game.
It's a shame.

1 minute ago, =LG=Piciu said:

I'm wondering why nobody of you will say (maybe I missed something) that technochat is providing also immediate information about engine overheating,

That's not provided by technochat, but by tech hints, which is named "Tech chat advices" and have different option.
You're mixing "Tech chat advices" and "Tech chat messages" together

[Piciu]

7 minutes ago, 1stCL/rudidlo said:

Bomb sights are not historically accurate in contrary to original Sturmovik game.
It's a shame.

That's not provided by technochat, but by tech hints, which is named "Tech chat advices" and have different option.
You're mixing "Tech chat advices" and "Tech chat messages" together

So check again this two options and say which one is telling you about for ex. "combat power", "fuel leak", "engine damage", "engine overheating". Hmm? 

 

[LLv24_Zami]

33 minutes ago, Diggun said:

65% water rads & 45% water rads are conformal and provide best airflow / cooling benefits. We have no way to know when we are at those settings. IRL your ground crew would stick a piece of tape / paint on the control wheel.

I am sure that if you set them to the 50% like I do, you won't see significant difference.

 

No need to get stuck exact percentages with any settings.

[Rafcio]

11 minutes ago, 1stCL/rudidlo said:

Bomb sights are not historically accurate in contrary to original Sturmovik game.
It's a shame.

That's not provided by technochat, but by tech hints, which is named "Tech chat advices" and have different option.
You're mixing "Tech chat advices" and "Tech chat messages" together

You are wrong. Advices do not give you information about plane technical state. 

Edited October 13, 2020 by =L/R=Rafcio

[Roger_Meatball]

8 minutes ago, richarrrd said:

 

• Ban keyboard and mouse bindings entirely. Map to a HOTAS or custom hardware. Real pilots don't have keyboards and mice.
• The notifications for battle conditions (e.g. "enemy aircraft spotted at grid xyz" or "factory in grid abc is under attack") should be removed
• On screen compass in the lower left. Just read the compass on your panel.
• G-meter is basically just training wheels for babies and the non-hardcore. Learn your plane better, and do some basic math in your head to gauge airspeed vs. vertical speed indicator, attitude, etc. That will give you a clear indication of G-related risks. I mean the game is calculating G factors for the UI, so you can do the same math in your head.
• Bomb sight view should be modded. It's all clickable, and it should be mapped to hardware only. I think there's a windspeed indicator in the UI as well, which is nonsense.
• No twist axis sticks allowed. Pedals only. Not sure how enforceable this is, but it's worth excluding as many players as we can.
• Let's get rid of all server messages and UI. When someone connects, gets booted for idle, exits, etc. It's ridiculous.

 

* Disable auto-level

* No bomb sight at all - you can't fly and use a sight simultaneously. Want to use a bomb sight? Bring a bombardier.

* No Teamspeak. No Discord. And we need to convert SRS so that you are distance-limited on your radios and so you can listen to the other side's channels.

* Server needs to lock players out in-between sorties according to the time it would take to rearm their planes.

* Server also needs to boot people who take off before their engines have been started along enough to actually warm up. !?This dumbo arcade game doesn't even force us to warm out engines up!?

* Disable the scoreboard. We shouldn't have ANY idea who is on the server. 
* Pilots should be claiming kills personally via the website

* We should not see kills or status of the other side's defenses. There should be room for misinformation in intelligence.

* The only recon screenshots we have available to us should be taken by players physically flying over the field and taking a screenshot from their cockpits themselves.

* As mentioned in the post above, the screenshot button can't be mapped to a keyboard, and it can't even been these fakey "digital screenshot" functions baked into the video game *cough cough cough grumble* I mean simulation. The user must take a picture of their physical screen with a real camera on their desk and upload that image to the website. Does your image suck? Get a better camera like the real pilots did.

 

The server admins can make a lot of this happen; they have tools to check takeoff times, loadouts, etc and they should use them to promote realism. 

[Diggun]

8 minutes ago, LLv24_Zami said:

I am sure that if you set them to the 50%

How do you know when they are at 50%?

[LLv24_Zami]

1 minute ago, Diggun said:

How do you know when they are at 50%?

See my response to you earlier im this thread.