Jump to content
=LG=Kathon

Tactical Air War

Recommended Posts

Haza,

 

Couldn't agree more.  The discussion does seem to revolve in an endless tug of war of who can either try to take the moral high ground or bring it back to reality.  

 

Biluf, 

 

Not sure what you meant by the statement you made.  I'll choose to take it as the old saying goes: "birds of a feather flock together" and nothing more.  I hope you didn't intend any ill will.  

 

With that said, I hope others on the other side of the fence do not take my, and some of the The Wet Bandits', stance on this subject as a gesture of disrespect.  It is simply a difference of opinion.  

 

In the previous campaign, as German, we nearly lost the war specifically due to pilot attrition.  The team as a whole identified and adjusted to compensate for that factor.  This campaign we sought to never let that become the case.  

 

Admittedly, the current war is turning out to be a landslide for which such actions aren't really necessary.  However, we've set a policy and, while I cannot speak for each individual in our squadron, I intend to adhere to that policy.

 

Next campaign we will by flying for the Germans and welcome the same ruthlessness with open arms. 

 

Cheers!

 

And Salute to all those pilots taking part in what is clearly the greatest multiplayer server this game has yet to offer!

 

And don't pay attention to otavio, he's... special...

Edited by [TWB]dillon_biz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For me chute killing is like tea bagging in Shooters. So i dont do it, I dont like it. There are other ways of winning.

Yes on a normal server like WoL. But here it is a objective to win. Imagine Battlefield like that 10000 teabags to win the match. Everybody would do it.

 

As for me. I am not in (atm) because we are winning anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We want realistic simulation of war combat - shooting innocent as one can see chutkilling was part of that war. Mostly germans did that and definitely they started it. Do it or not - real pilots had choise we have also.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Think this discussion is pointless in general, since the arguments from both sides do not revolve around the same point

 

On one hand you have people playing for the immersion aspect, so the game for them is a mixture of role-play and sim - of course they do not chute kill b/c they would not do the same thing in reality, hence the moral standard.

 

Others view it as a game, that they want to win - simple as that, like Super Mario (no one thinks of the moral consequence of jumping on those poor turtles, right?).

 

People saying that chute killers have no honor etc. do not consider the point that they are lacking the immersion aspect. That's not a question of moral standards. They just have a different perception of the game. I like the immersion too, but making chute killing a question of moral integrity is flawed reasoning and unfair.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We want realistic simulation of war combat - shooting innocent as one can see chutkilling was part of that war. Mostly germans did that and definitely they started it. Do it or not - real pilots had choise we have also.

As blatant lie as it gets. Couldn't be further from the truth
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As blatant lie as it gets. Couldn't be further from the truth

Yeah I'm sure Luftwaffe pilots were angels that did nothing immoral ever so how dare this be said. Also, I doubt anyone from the either side were eager to put in their reports that they spent rounds on a pilot in a parachute, so take that into account.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As blatant lie as it gets. Couldn't be further from the truth

What is lie, please be specific? That german soldiers did not murderd milons of innocent civilans or did LW pilots start shooting to parachutist in Battle of England?

Edited by 307_Tomcat
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What is lie, please be specific?

 

For example that "mostly Germans did it" - it is highly doubtful. What I have read then, Japanese did it the most, as their views on surrendering are totally different from western approach. If talking about European theater, then according to what I have read of, it was far more common among Russians than Germans for example.

 

Secondly "definitely they started it". Well, Germans were shot in their parachutes already when nobody else even used parachutes in WWI. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For example that "mostly Germans did it" - it is highly doubtful. What I have read then, Japanese did it the most, as their views on surrendering are totally different from western approach. If talking about European theater, then according to what I have read of, it was far more common among Russians than Germans for example.

 

Secondly "definitely they started it". Well, Germans were shot in their parachutes already when nobody else even used parachutes in WWI.

Ok, but let's keep same frame of referance - the time and place ok?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What is lie, please be specific? That german soldiers did not murderd milons of innocent civilans or did LW pilots start shooting to parachutist in Battle of England?

 

Kemp already answered it partly. In addition there were barely chute kills in the western front. It happened occasionally, but far from common. Whereas on the eastern front it was not the majority, but it happened quite often. I wonder why that is? That should also answer your question who started it in a grand scheme. Or do you think the Germans send all their antisocial and badass piliots to the east, and their correct behaving to the west? I guess not  :rolleyes:

 

Btw your second lie. German soldiers did not murder millions of innocent civilians - SS did it, not the Wehrmacht . That's a distinctive difference. If you want to look for an Army that really killed dozen million innocent civilians, you have again to look at Stalin regime Soviet army. - but this has absolutely nothing to do with chute shooting and correct behavior in aeroplanes

You should read up a little bit more about history, before spreading false facts. 

Edited by II./JG77_Manu*

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I still dont like how a lot of people use the term of "Hartmanning" and abuse the incredible performance he did.

 

Most of the pilots titled in BoS as "Hartmann-Style" Act stupid. Hartmann never act stupid. (ok once at the beginning of his career). War mostly doesnt accept being stupid. Ask the thousends of killed pilots what happens just because of ONE little mistake.

 

I know its just fatuity to use his name in this sense, but i still dont likke it. It always sounds like Erich was an idiot. On the other hand i think the Problem of the high cover germans is not based on the believe" I am a Killer like Hartmann(which he never was actually)" but more of a missunderstanding of BoS.

When i first join to this game not long ago, i thought " Yeah, finally a real War simulator! Lets start acting like a real pilot and fly high!"

 

I came from WarThunder where you can barely have a fight above 2 or 3 k (at max!) cause everybody is vulching or bored of the time effort for climbing... 

Whenever i read a book about flying in wartime( not only of Hartmann) you will not really often read of fights below 2000 m ( at least not at the starting point of the engagement).

 

And BoS looks and feels so real that I thought it would be the same here. It took me a while (ans one of Bismarck's Videos) to realize the problem of the high altitude in corelation with low flying russians and the "spotting buble".

Since then i fly at 3 k normally, maybe 4 at maximum. 

I wouldnt say that it is as bad as in Warthunder, but it took me a while like i said. So it might do for other newbies in here(mostly flying germans i guess)

 

I still try to follow other attack credo's by Hartmann( and why not, he should definetely know how to succeed) but i got rid of the space 4k and above.

 

So please invent a new title for stupid german pilots :-)

 

On the othe rhand i am still schocked about the way the campaign took. I was on a Hike with a scot group from saturday till yesterday and barely check the TaW side. When i left it was round 2 and looking OK. And only 4 days later we lost another 2 Maps?

 

I mean for the first Map alone it took about 5 days to loose. I dont think the germans become more stupid during the last week so there most be some other reason for that fast progress.

Really sad it will now end that fast :-(

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kemp already answered it partly. In addition there were barely chute kills in the western front. It happened occasionally, but far from common. Whereas on the eastern front it was not the majority, but it happened quite often. I wonder why that is? That should also answer your question who started it in a grand scheme. Or do you think the Germans send all their antisocial and badass piliots to the east, and their correct behaving to the west? I guess not :rolleyes:

 

Btw your second lie. German soldiers did not murder millions of innocent civilians - SS did it, not the Wehrmacht . That's a distinctive difference. If you want to look for an Army that really killed dozen million innocent civilians, you have again to look at Stalin regime Soviet army. - but this has absolutely nothing to do with chute shooting and correct behavior in aeroplanes

You should read up a little bit more about history, before spreading false facts.

I can see that you read what is pleasent to you, but all of yours statments are easy to be demolished. Live in that lie, i don't care.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 chutekilling serves a purpose,

 

So would be killing of civilians or what? Kiling them would serve a purpose as well, but i think we can agree that its not right , are we?

 

And i would not agree that your behaviour in a game doesnt reflect your behaviour as a real person. If you do EVERYTHING to win a game (where your future life is not based on winning), wouldnt you do everything to win a real war where all you love might get lost if you loose the war?

 

And to compare killing a pilot in his working fighter with killing him on a chute is ridiculous right?

As long as I am flying in my fighter I am a threat to you. So you have all rights to kill me. But as soon as I bail out, I am no longer a threat for your life.

 

And even if I am not a trained advocate, I guess That killing a person WITHOUT danger for you health and life(or someone elses) is a crime in every Nation past and present. So chutekilling should be out of question for any Human being with honour.

 

 

I dont want to say more to this topic for the sake of my health.

Edited by Golden_Phoenix87

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So many lies in this topic..

It is well know that germans liked to shoot at bailed out bomber crews on the western front, lots of pilot accounts to back that up.

 

Because Nazi Germany attacked Poland in 1939 and started the war in europe? Germans started the chute-killing and intentionally bombing civilian targets in Europe. That is a fact.

 

No, those were only Stalin's special corps. That's a distinctive difference.

 

Looks like you are the one who needs to read up a little history. And by history I mean real history, not those biased axishistory sites that you seem to be getting your information from.

 

As far as shooting at parachutes goes...Can't help but to laugh at these social justice warriors/virtual moral police people. It's is a video game. It is in no way indicative of anyone's IRL moral values. Claiming otherwise is ridiculous, if you do that, that actually makes you the bad person. Like mentioned multiple times, chutekilling serves a purpose, it might be a decisive factor in the online campaign. If you don't want to shoot at chutes, fine, you don't have to. But if others want to do it, who are you to tell them that they shouldnt do that, or that they are bad people irl.....like what the...

 

Seems like you took your history lessons in Russia. If i were you i'd try to educate myself with history sources from other countries as well - with the knowledge of English language and the Internet, this is now possible even in Russia

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Speak for yourself. I would do everything to make sure there would be no wars. 

 

 

This whole Knights of the Skies honor thing is just weird. Strict honorable rules on how you can and cant kill another human being. Only allowed to kill in this or that way, oh you cant kill in that way, that's not honorable! Call me crazy, but wouldn't it be far more honorable to not start any wars?

 

Thats nice that you would do everything to avoid a war. But thats not the point of this conversation right? If you get to the point where our conversations starts there would no longer be the "peace-choice" because we are already at war.

 

I never said I would like to start a war but since we are talking about a War Game/a already started war thats not the question i would say.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My initial thoughts were, wow - that was a very suspect high speed turn with some desync at the end for the collision/kill - with a huge rate of closure that seemed also very off. Then I played the video back some more.

My thoughts are that although the 20 G turn or so, or rather in more realistic view, that turn radius and state of speed is indeed suspicious. The the ending part seems legit for a player of either high latency and/or latency spikes and/or packet loss.

 

What regular high latency looks like (includes what war thunder netcode is like to some extent, although war thunder does predict angle much more than il2 which is why i often get shot at angles that seems like they can't shoot me with in il2 as seen in the following video):

https://youtu.be/4LmrJlH-YUw?t=3m45s

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Exactly. I don't know why you'd bring up real war, as the topic is about a VIDEO GAME. Game. Video Game. 

 

Just because even in a Game, it is not right to kill helpless people.Or did you like to shoot the civilians in the Call of Duty MW Airport scene as well? 

 

And In a game we used to call simulator we should try so simulate all aspects of the Simulated Topic.

 

But after your answer we should close that topic and stop spamming this thread. I guess we wont find a agreement.

Edited by Golden_Phoenix87

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are you the same Manu that has been in and out of our TeamSpeak the past couple of months? I hope not, because I like that Manu, and this post would do some work to tarnish that Manu's reputation in my eyes. 

 

 

 

It's not, that's 4./JG52 Manu.

 

 

And to all you holier than thou (especially those that flew a whole 3 hours in TAW this campaign) talking about shooting chutes, this display of Axis honor is what happened on the very first day of TAW.... well before the chokeslamming and gnashing of Axis teeth began.... before the bleating about numbers and US Prime Time and how fast the Pe-2 is...  

 

 

OU3oRkw.jpg

 

 

9WgYPM9.jpg

 

But did I cry?  Did I cry?  No. You know why?

 

Because, just like baseball, there's no crying in TAW.  It's right up there in the rules.  It's even underlined.

 

http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cx2Sps9aMcY

 

There are two options here:

 

  1.  It's just a game.  Who cares?
  2. It's LITERALLY the ACTUAL Battle of Stalingrad.  War is hell. Not one step backward. If you don't want to get shot in the chute, don't jump out of your plane. (Adjust for ditching as needed)

 

 

It does not bother me personally, if someone decides to shoot chutes in a game. That is his choice, his values. I would not do it. I am not gonna lose my honor because of a game.

From here, I follow the good suggestion from Haza, and leave the argument at that. No need to go around in circles about a topic that has gone through lots of rounds and circles already.

 

Dude, if it didn't bother you your squad that barely flew TAW at all wouldn't be on here leading the crusade against pixelated war crimes.

 

You apparently had no trouble dropping bombs all over little virtual people running for their lives on an airfield.

 

Do you get how absurd this is? 

 

"I am not gonna lose my honor because of a game." <---- unless you're cheating (which I know you guys are not) then you have nothing to worry about here.  Shooting a fake cookie cutter man that looks exactly like the next one you will get, for free, in your next make believe airplane, will never, ever have an effect on your honor.  

 

I'm with you... I don't shoot chutes (I mean, if we're being honest, neither you nor I are often the one watching the other guy bail out, if you go by our stats)... but you guys want to drag our entire squad's "values" into the discussion and then bow out once you get me riled up?  Why don't you fly more than 13 sorties next time before you come project your anger about gitgud deficiency?

 

#chutelivesmatter

 

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ahhm Dude, i guess no one ever said that the chutekill topic is a russian only topic or did we? At least for me it doesnt matter. If it is done by one of us its as bad as if a russian is the killer.

 

Same crime, same punishment you know.

Edited by Golden_Phoenix87

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seems like you took your history lessons in Russia. If i were you i'd try to educate myself with history sources from other countries as well - with the knowledge of English language and the Internet, this is now possible even in Russia

That is you who need this possibilty :)

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_of_the_Wehrmacht

Edited by 307_Tomcat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And to compare killing a pilot in his working fighter with killing him on a chute is ridiculous right?

As long as I am flying in my fighter I am a threat to you. So you have all rights to kill me. But as soon as I bail out, I am no longer a threat for your life.

Not that flight, but your aircraft retained/earned on your next flight will be.

 

In TAW, the pilot doesn't just lose his kill streak when killed, I'm not sure that would be enough to warrant a PK. The pilot's combat missions are also reset to zero, and any ditched aircraft that pilot had are also destroyed... This means he won't be reinforced with better aircraft and will be less of a threat to my team next time he takes off in a stuka.

 

Shooting a pilot isn't any different than destroying a plane (either a fraction of one via combat mission loss or multiple depending on the status of a particular pilot's hangar), as they produce the same results on this server.

 

Salute and Good hunting!

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For me chute killing is like tea bagging in Shooters. So i dont do it, I dont like it. There are other ways of winning.

Sums up my feelings on the matter.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There will be New Year's Eve after this mission on TAW, maybe we all stop fighting for a moment and celebrate it by shooting colorful flares ;)

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There will be New Year's Eve after this mission on TAW, maybe we all stop fighting for a moment and celebrate it by shooting colorful flares

 

 

Good idea but when there are hot discussions it  means popularity :-)

 

BTW. Kathon do the hard times to get into TAW server - especially in evening hours all slot are often full (this is measure of yours success ). Maybe is time to set up another instance of TAW, it could be  for example only for BOM map and planes ?

Edited by 307_Tomcat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I expect the same ruthlessness from our axis counterparts, given their current status in the campaign standings, but as it stands they can't even organize their way out of a wet paper bag.  Let alone win a TAW frame.

Didn't you and your buddies give me and mine a wheelbarrow full of shit for using BnZ tactics against you? Yes, yes you did. In fact I seem to recall being called "a puss bag" for attempting a Drag and Bag and then using my 109 to its strengths and climbing away when I was outnumbered 3 to 1. You cry when people play the game you don't like.

 

Here you are arguing for historical behaviour when it suits you, and you don't like it when people cry because you play the way that they don't like.

 

You're a real piece of work.

Edited by JG13_opcode
  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And In a game we used to call simulator we should try so simulate all aspects of the Simulated Topic.

So I take it you'll be uninstalling the game and never flying again when you get shot down to simulate your death, correct?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So I take it you'll be uninstalling the game and never flying again when you get shot down to simulate your death, correct?

 

Sure, as soon as your Squad stop killing help- and defensless pilots in an honourless act...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Didn't you and your buddies give me and mine a wheelbarrow full of shit for using BnZ tactics against you? Yes, yes you did. In fact I seem to recall being called "a puss bag" for attempting a Drag and Bag and then using my 109 to its strengths and climbing away when I was outnumbered 3 to 1. You cry when people play the game you don't like.

 

Here you are arguing for historical behaviour when it suits you, and you don't like it when people cry because you play the way that they don't like.

 

You're a real piece of work.

 

When you're drunk and the other dude can just press the gas pedal and leave, the only weapon in your arsenal is antagonism.  That's been a thing since at least 1988 when Kesmai kicked off Air Warrior.

 

We shot chutes a lot back then.  There were no war crime trials.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You know, all this can be solved if everyone that's bothered by chute shooting would just stop trying to shoot me down. The 1 out of 50 times I actually do a reversal correctly or dodge a bounce and turn it around to somehow miraculously get the kill to enable me to put your dangling man-parts in my crosshairs I miss the shot anyway.

 

Obviously everyone here is getting entertainment by poking at your mindboggling perspective on a video game. It seems most of you don't even have a direct first-hand complaint or evidence of getting shot down while swinging in the wind, which is confusing on its own.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When you're drunk and the other dude can just press the gas pedal and leave, the only weapon in your arsenal is antagonism.  That's been a thing since at least 1988 when Kesmai kicked off Air Warrior.

 

We shot chutes a lot back then.  There were no war crime trials.

Nowhere online will you find me arguing that online chute-shooting is a reprehensible act. I just don't like hypocrisy.

Edited by JG13_opcode
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's remember that this is a game we all play together, whether on one team or another, no need to be mean to each other here on the forums or in the game chat. 

I'm a terrible pilot so I never shoot anybody down in the first place, but I'm also always PK'd by the very first bullet, too.  Guess that solves that problem for me.

I leave to you the wise words of Ilya Bryzagalov:

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Il2 can be considered a game, but from what I've seen it's more like a community of like minded individuals who have a passion for flight and history. I'm personally against shooting a chute, but if someone feels a chute must be shot then let it be shot in the name of victory and not simply to annoy.

 

Happy hunting gents. S!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Didn't you and your buddies give me and mine a wheelbarrow full of shit for using BnZ tactics against you? Yes, yes you did. In fact I seem to recall being called "a puss bag" for attempting a Drag and Bag and then using my 109 to its strengths and climbing away when I was outnumbered 3 to 1. You cry when people play the game you don't like. Here you are arguing for historical behaviour when it suits you, and you don't like it when people cry because you play the way that they don't like. You're a real piece of work.

 

LMAO

 

That made me remember a few months ago when we didnt had TAW, and WoL was out. Their squad setup a server with the same name as WoL (to attract players, I suppose). When I was fighting them, using BnZ tactics they openly whined on chat to stop with the BnZ and also 'asked' to us germans not to fly above 3-4k. I dont have to say that I ended banned from their server just because I didnt play the way they wanted.  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not that flight, but your aircraft retained/earned on your next flight will be [a threat]

 

In TAW, the pilot doesn't just lose his kill streak when killed, I'm not sure that would be enough to warrant a PK. The pilot's combat missions are also reset to zero, and any ditched aircraft that pilot had are also destroyed... This means he won't be reinforced with better aircraft and will be less of a threat to my team next time he takes off in a stuka.

 

Shooting a pilot isn't any different than destroying a plane (either a fraction of one via combat mission loss or multiple depending on the status of a particular pilot's hangar), as they produce the same results on this server.

 

Salute and Good hunting!

Anyone have comments around the logic of this style of game play? People always seem to bypass my posts and argue their opinion down a much easier road...

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pand' timestamp='1476316659' post='399667'] Anyone have comments around the logic of this style of game play? People always seem to bypass my posts and argue their opinion down a much easier road...

 

Meh, I'm one of those that doesn't see why people get all worked up about chute shooting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyone have comments around the logic of this style of game play? People always seem to bypass my posts and argue their opinion down a much easier road...

 

Honestly Pand I think whoever said that we're arguing in two different logical systems, and thus this discussion is irreconcilable, hit the nail on the head.

 

It's like a religious person and an atheist arguing. If the the two parties genuinely interpret the world around them differently, there's really nothing to be done to reconcile their opinions. Some of us think view this as just a game, others as a historical reenactment involving role play. So we might as well just live and let live, and talk about things we all love, like Tante Ju.

 

 

(And please, please nobody read into my mention of religion here- it was the best example I could come up with and I mean nothing by it whatsoever)

Edited by 19.GIAP//curiousGamblerr
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For example that "mostly Germans did it" - it is highly doubtful. What I have read then, Japanese did it the most, as their views on surrendering are totally different from western approach. If talking about European theater, then according to what I have read of, it was far more common among Russians than Germans for example.

 

Secondly "definitely they started it". Well, Germans were shot in their parachutes already when nobody else even used parachutes in WWI. 

So if we were playing the Pacific Theater you'd suddenly be fine with it since it would be historically more accurate in your view? Or would you still be decrying a lack of "honor?"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@=LG=Kathon Is it possible to uncheck "BoS" in the pilot profile and only play with BoM aircraft? If I do that mid campaign will it take away all of my BoS aircraft once I make the change?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...