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What is lie, please be specific?

 

For example that "mostly Germans did it" - it is highly doubtful. What I have read then, Japanese did it the most, as their views on surrendering are totally different from western approach. If talking about European theater, then according to what I have read of, it was far more common among Russians than Germans for example.

 

Secondly "definitely they started it". Well, Germans were shot in their parachutes already when nobody else even used parachutes in WWI. 

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For example that "mostly Germans did it" - it is highly doubtful. What I have read then, Japanese did it the most, as their views on surrendering are totally different from western approach. If talking about European theater, then according to what I have read of, it was far more common among Russians than Germans for example.

 

Secondly "definitely they started it". Well, Germans were shot in their parachutes already when nobody else even used parachutes in WWI.

Ok, but let's keep same frame of referance - the time and place ok?

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What is lie, please be specific? That german soldiers did not murderd milons of innocent civilans or did LW pilots start shooting to parachutist in Battle of England?

 

Kemp already answered it partly. In addition there were barely chute kills in the western front. It happened occasionally, but far from common. Whereas on the eastern front it was not the majority, but it happened quite often. I wonder why that is? That should also answer your question who started it in a grand scheme. Or do you think the Germans send all their antisocial and badass piliots to the east, and their correct behaving to the west? I guess not  :rolleyes:

 

Btw your second lie. German soldiers did not murder millions of innocent civilians - SS did it, not the Wehrmacht . That's a distinctive difference. If you want to look for an Army that really killed dozen million innocent civilians, you have again to look at Stalin regime Soviet army. - but this has absolutely nothing to do with chute shooting and correct behavior in aeroplanes

You should read up a little bit more about history, before spreading false facts. 

Edited by II./JG77_Manu*

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I still dont like how a lot of people use the term of "Hartmanning" and abuse the incredible performance he did.

 

Most of the pilots titled in BoS as "Hartmann-Style" Act stupid. Hartmann never act stupid. (ok once at the beginning of his career). War mostly doesnt accept being stupid. Ask the thousends of killed pilots what happens just because of ONE little mistake.

 

I know its just fatuity to use his name in this sense, but i still dont likke it. It always sounds like Erich was an idiot. On the other hand i think the Problem of the high cover germans is not based on the believe" I am a Killer like Hartmann(which he never was actually)" but more of a missunderstanding of BoS.

When i first join to this game not long ago, i thought " Yeah, finally a real War simulator! Lets start acting like a real pilot and fly high!"

 

I came from WarThunder where you can barely have a fight above 2 or 3 k (at max!) cause everybody is vulching or bored of the time effort for climbing... 

Whenever i read a book about flying in wartime( not only of Hartmann) you will not really often read of fights below 2000 m ( at least not at the starting point of the engagement).

 

And BoS looks and feels so real that I thought it would be the same here. It took me a while (ans one of Bismarck's Videos) to realize the problem of the high altitude in corelation with low flying russians and the "spotting buble".

Since then i fly at 3 k normally, maybe 4 at maximum. 

I wouldnt say that it is as bad as in Warthunder, but it took me a while like i said. So it might do for other newbies in here(mostly flying germans i guess)

 

I still try to follow other attack credo's by Hartmann( and why not, he should definetely know how to succeed) but i got rid of the space 4k and above.

 

So please invent a new title for stupid german pilots :-)

 

On the othe rhand i am still schocked about the way the campaign took. I was on a Hike with a scot group from saturday till yesterday and barely check the TaW side. When i left it was round 2 and looking OK. And only 4 days later we lost another 2 Maps?

 

I mean for the first Map alone it took about 5 days to loose. I dont think the germans become more stupid during the last week so there most be some other reason for that fast progress.

Really sad it will now end that fast :-(

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Kemp already answered it partly. In addition there were barely chute kills in the western front. It happened occasionally, but far from common. Whereas on the eastern front it was not the majority, but it happened quite often. I wonder why that is? That should also answer your question who started it in a grand scheme. Or do you think the Germans send all their antisocial and badass piliots to the east, and their correct behaving to the west? I guess not :rolleyes:

 

Btw your second lie. German soldiers did not murder millions of innocent civilians - SS did it, not the Wehrmacht . That's a distinctive difference. If you want to look for an Army that really killed dozen million innocent civilians, you have again to look at Stalin regime Soviet army. - but this has absolutely nothing to do with chute shooting and correct behavior in aeroplanes

You should read up a little bit more about history, before spreading false facts.

I can see that you read what is pleasent to you, but all of yours statments are easy to be demolished. Live in that lie, i don't care.

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but all of yours statments are easy to be demolished

Ok, then show me a source that "demolishes" one of my statements please :) 

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 chutekilling serves a purpose,

 

So would be killing of civilians or what? Kiling them would serve a purpose as well, but i think we can agree that its not right , are we?

 

And i would not agree that your behaviour in a game doesnt reflect your behaviour as a real person. If you do EVERYTHING to win a game (where your future life is not based on winning), wouldnt you do everything to win a real war where all you love might get lost if you loose the war?

 

And to compare killing a pilot in his working fighter with killing him on a chute is ridiculous right?

As long as I am flying in my fighter I am a threat to you. So you have all rights to kill me. But as soon as I bail out, I am no longer a threat for your life.

 

And even if I am not a trained advocate, I guess That killing a person WITHOUT danger for you health and life(or someone elses) is a crime in every Nation past and present. So chutekilling should be out of question for any Human being with honour.

 

 

I dont want to say more to this topic for the sake of my health.

Edited by Golden_Phoenix87

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So many lies in this topic..

It is well know that germans liked to shoot at bailed out bomber crews on the western front, lots of pilot accounts to back that up.

 

Because Nazi Germany attacked Poland in 1939 and started the war in europe? Germans started the chute-killing and intentionally bombing civilian targets in Europe. That is a fact.

 

No, those were only Stalin's special corps. That's a distinctive difference.

 

Looks like you are the one who needs to read up a little history. And by history I mean real history, not those biased axishistory sites that you seem to be getting your information from.

 

As far as shooting at parachutes goes...Can't help but to laugh at these social justice warriors/virtual moral police people. It's is a video game. It is in no way indicative of anyone's IRL moral values. Claiming otherwise is ridiculous, if you do that, that actually makes you the bad person. Like mentioned multiple times, chutekilling serves a purpose, it might be a decisive factor in the online campaign. If you don't want to shoot at chutes, fine, you don't have to. But if others want to do it, who are you to tell them that they shouldnt do that, or that they are bad people irl.....like what the...

 

Seems like you took your history lessons in Russia. If i were you i'd try to educate myself with history sources from other countries as well - with the knowledge of English language and the Internet, this is now possible even in Russia

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Speak for yourself. I would do everything to make sure there would be no wars. 

 

 

This whole Knights of the Skies honor thing is just weird. Strict honorable rules on how you can and cant kill another human being. Only allowed to kill in this or that way, oh you cant kill in that way, that's not honorable! Call me crazy, but wouldn't it be far more honorable to not start any wars?

 

Thats nice that you would do everything to avoid a war. But thats not the point of this conversation right? If you get to the point where our conversations starts there would no longer be the "peace-choice" because we are already at war.

 

I never said I would like to start a war but since we are talking about a War Game/a already started war thats not the question i would say.

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My initial thoughts were, wow - that was a very suspect high speed turn with some desync at the end for the collision/kill - with a huge rate of closure that seemed also very off. Then I played the video back some more.

My thoughts are that although the 20 G turn or so, or rather in more realistic view, that turn radius and state of speed is indeed suspicious. The the ending part seems legit for a player of either high latency and/or latency spikes and/or packet loss.

 

What regular high latency looks like (includes what war thunder netcode is like to some extent, although war thunder does predict angle much more than il2 which is why i often get shot at angles that seems like they can't shoot me with in il2 as seen in the following video):

https://youtu.be/4LmrJlH-YUw?t=3m45s

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Exactly. I don't know why you'd bring up real war, as the topic is about a VIDEO GAME. Game. Video Game. 

 

Just because even in a Game, it is not right to kill helpless people.Or did you like to shoot the civilians in the Call of Duty MW Airport scene as well? 

 

And In a game we used to call simulator we should try so simulate all aspects of the Simulated Topic.

 

But after your answer we should close that topic and stop spamming this thread. I guess we wont find a agreement.

Edited by Golden_Phoenix87

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Are you the same Manu that has been in and out of our TeamSpeak the past couple of months? I hope not, because I like that Manu, and this post would do some work to tarnish that Manu's reputation in my eyes. 

 

 

 

It's not, that's 4./JG52 Manu.

 

 

And to all you holier than thou (especially those that flew a whole 3 hours in TAW this campaign) talking about shooting chutes, this display of Axis honor is what happened on the very first day of TAW.... well before the chokeslamming and gnashing of Axis teeth began.... before the bleating about numbers and US Prime Time and how fast the Pe-2 is...  

 

 

OU3oRkw.jpg

 

 

9WgYPM9.jpg

 

But did I cry?  Did I cry?  No. You know why?

 

Because, just like baseball, there's no crying in TAW.  It's right up there in the rules.  It's even underlined.

 

http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cx2Sps9aMcY

 

There are two options here:

 

  1.  It's just a game.  Who cares?
  2. It's LITERALLY the ACTUAL Battle of Stalingrad.  War is hell. Not one step backward. If you don't want to get shot in the chute, don't jump out of your plane. (Adjust for ditching as needed)

 

 

It does not bother me personally, if someone decides to shoot chutes in a game. That is his choice, his values. I would not do it. I am not gonna lose my honor because of a game.

From here, I follow the good suggestion from Haza, and leave the argument at that. No need to go around in circles about a topic that has gone through lots of rounds and circles already.

 

Dude, if it didn't bother you your squad that barely flew TAW at all wouldn't be on here leading the crusade against pixelated war crimes.

 

You apparently had no trouble dropping bombs all over little virtual people running for their lives on an airfield.

 

Do you get how absurd this is? 

 

"I am not gonna lose my honor because of a game." <---- unless you're cheating (which I know you guys are not) then you have nothing to worry about here.  Shooting a fake cookie cutter man that looks exactly like the next one you will get, for free, in your next make believe airplane, will never, ever have an effect on your honor.  

 

I'm with you... I don't shoot chutes (I mean, if we're being honest, neither you nor I are often the one watching the other guy bail out, if you go by our stats)... but you guys want to drag our entire squad's "values" into the discussion and then bow out once you get me riled up?  Why don't you fly more than 13 sorties next time before you come project your anger about gitgud deficiency?

 

#chutelivesmatter

 

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Ahhm Dude, i guess no one ever said that the chutekill topic is a russian only topic or did we? At least for me it doesnt matter. If it is done by one of us its as bad as if a russian is the killer.

 

Same crime, same punishment you know.

Edited by Golden_Phoenix87

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Seems like you took your history lessons in Russia. If i were you i'd try to educate myself with history sources from other countries as well - with the knowledge of English language and the Internet, this is now possible even in Russia

That is you who need this possibilty :)

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_of_the_Wehrmacht

Edited by 307_Tomcat

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And to compare killing a pilot in his working fighter with killing him on a chute is ridiculous right?

As long as I am flying in my fighter I am a threat to you. So you have all rights to kill me. But as soon as I bail out, I am no longer a threat for your life.

Not that flight, but your aircraft retained/earned on your next flight will be.

 

In TAW, the pilot doesn't just lose his kill streak when killed, I'm not sure that would be enough to warrant a PK. The pilot's combat missions are also reset to zero, and any ditched aircraft that pilot had are also destroyed... This means he won't be reinforced with better aircraft and will be less of a threat to my team next time he takes off in a stuka.

 

Shooting a pilot isn't any different than destroying a plane (either a fraction of one via combat mission loss or multiple depending on the status of a particular pilot's hangar), as they produce the same results on this server.

 

Salute and Good hunting!

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There will be New Year's Eve after this mission on TAW, maybe we all stop fighting for a moment and celebrate it by shooting colorful flares ;)

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There will be New Year's Eve after this mission on TAW, maybe we all stop fighting for a moment and celebrate it by shooting colorful flares

 

 

Good idea but when there are hot discussions it  means popularity :-)

 

BTW. Kathon do the hard times to get into TAW server - especially in evening hours all slot are often full (this is measure of yours success ). Maybe is time to set up another instance of TAW, it could be  for example only for BOM map and planes ?

Edited by 307_Tomcat

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I expect the same ruthlessness from our axis counterparts, given their current status in the campaign standings, but as it stands they can't even organize their way out of a wet paper bag.  Let alone win a TAW frame.

Didn't you and your buddies give me and mine a wheelbarrow full of shit for using BnZ tactics against you? Yes, yes you did. In fact I seem to recall being called "a puss bag" for attempting a Drag and Bag and then using my 109 to its strengths and climbing away when I was outnumbered 3 to 1. You cry when people play the game you don't like.

 

Here you are arguing for historical behaviour when it suits you, and you don't like it when people cry because you play the way that they don't like.

 

You're a real piece of work.

Edited by JG13_opcode
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And In a game we used to call simulator we should try so simulate all aspects of the Simulated Topic.

So I take it you'll be uninstalling the game and never flying again when you get shot down to simulate your death, correct?

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So I take it you'll be uninstalling the game and never flying again when you get shot down to simulate your death, correct?

 

Sure, as soon as your Squad stop killing help- and defensless pilots in an honourless act...

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Didn't you and your buddies give me and mine a wheelbarrow full of shit for using BnZ tactics against you? Yes, yes you did. In fact I seem to recall being called "a puss bag" for attempting a Drag and Bag and then using my 109 to its strengths and climbing away when I was outnumbered 3 to 1. You cry when people play the game you don't like.

 

Here you are arguing for historical behaviour when it suits you, and you don't like it when people cry because you play the way that they don't like.

 

You're a real piece of work.

 

When you're drunk and the other dude can just press the gas pedal and leave, the only weapon in your arsenal is antagonism.  That's been a thing since at least 1988 when Kesmai kicked off Air Warrior.

 

We shot chutes a lot back then.  There were no war crime trials.

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You know, all this can be solved if everyone that's bothered by chute shooting would just stop trying to shoot me down. The 1 out of 50 times I actually do a reversal correctly or dodge a bounce and turn it around to somehow miraculously get the kill to enable me to put your dangling man-parts in my crosshairs I miss the shot anyway.

 

Obviously everyone here is getting entertainment by poking at your mindboggling perspective on a video game. It seems most of you don't even have a direct first-hand complaint or evidence of getting shot down while swinging in the wind, which is confusing on its own.

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When you're drunk and the other dude can just press the gas pedal and leave, the only weapon in your arsenal is antagonism.  That's been a thing since at least 1988 when Kesmai kicked off Air Warrior.

 

We shot chutes a lot back then.  There were no war crime trials.

Nowhere online will you find me arguing that online chute-shooting is a reprehensible act. I just don't like hypocrisy.

Edited by JG13_opcode
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Let's remember that this is a game we all play together, whether on one team or another, no need to be mean to each other here on the forums or in the game chat. 

I'm a terrible pilot so I never shoot anybody down in the first place, but I'm also always PK'd by the very first bullet, too.  Guess that solves that problem for me.

I leave to you the wise words of Ilya Bryzagalov:

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Il2 can be considered a game, but from what I've seen it's more like a community of like minded individuals who have a passion for flight and history. I'm personally against shooting a chute, but if someone feels a chute must be shot then let it be shot in the name of victory and not simply to annoy.

 

Happy hunting gents. S!

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Didn't you and your buddies give me and mine a wheelbarrow full of shit for using BnZ tactics against you? Yes, yes you did. In fact I seem to recall being called "a puss bag" for attempting a Drag and Bag and then using my 109 to its strengths and climbing away when I was outnumbered 3 to 1. You cry when people play the game you don't like. Here you are arguing for historical behaviour when it suits you, and you don't like it when people cry because you play the way that they don't like. You're a real piece of work.

 

LMAO

 

That made me remember a few months ago when we didnt had TAW, and WoL was out. Their squad setup a server with the same name as WoL (to attract players, I suppose). When I was fighting them, using BnZ tactics they openly whined on chat to stop with the BnZ and also 'asked' to us germans not to fly above 3-4k. I dont have to say that I ended banned from their server just because I didnt play the way they wanted.  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

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Not that flight, but your aircraft retained/earned on your next flight will be [a threat]

 

In TAW, the pilot doesn't just lose his kill streak when killed, I'm not sure that would be enough to warrant a PK. The pilot's combat missions are also reset to zero, and any ditched aircraft that pilot had are also destroyed... This means he won't be reinforced with better aircraft and will be less of a threat to my team next time he takes off in a stuka.

 

Shooting a pilot isn't any different than destroying a plane (either a fraction of one via combat mission loss or multiple depending on the status of a particular pilot's hangar), as they produce the same results on this server.

 

Salute and Good hunting!

Anyone have comments around the logic of this style of game play? People always seem to bypass my posts and argue their opinion down a much easier road...

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Pand' timestamp='1476316659' post='399667'] Anyone have comments around the logic of this style of game play? People always seem to bypass my posts and argue their opinion down a much easier road...

 

Meh, I'm one of those that doesn't see why people get all worked up about chute shooting.

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Anyone have comments around the logic of this style of game play? People always seem to bypass my posts and argue their opinion down a much easier road...

 

Honestly Pand I think whoever said that we're arguing in two different logical systems, and thus this discussion is irreconcilable, hit the nail on the head.

 

It's like a religious person and an atheist arguing. If the the two parties genuinely interpret the world around them differently, there's really nothing to be done to reconcile their opinions. Some of us think view this as just a game, others as a historical reenactment involving role play. So we might as well just live and let live, and talk about things we all love, like Tante Ju.

 

 

(And please, please nobody read into my mention of religion here- it was the best example I could come up with and I mean nothing by it whatsoever)

Edited by 19.GIAP//curiousGamblerr
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For example that "mostly Germans did it" - it is highly doubtful. What I have read then, Japanese did it the most, as their views on surrendering are totally different from western approach. If talking about European theater, then according to what I have read of, it was far more common among Russians than Germans for example.

 

Secondly "definitely they started it". Well, Germans were shot in their parachutes already when nobody else even used parachutes in WWI. 

So if we were playing the Pacific Theater you'd suddenly be fine with it since it would be historically more accurate in your view? Or would you still be decrying a lack of "honor?"

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@=LG=Kathon Is it possible to uncheck "BoS" in the pilot profile and only play with BoM aircraft? If I do that mid campaign will it take away all of my BoS aircraft once I make the change?

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@=LG=Kathon Is it possible to uncheck "BoS" in the pilot profile and only play with BoM aircraft? If I do that mid campaign will it take away all of my BoS aircraft once I make the change?

 

ypu can change as many times as you want and nothing will be lost

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Okay, I will answer to this one. One more time.

 

80hd: Dude, if it didn't bother you your squad that barely flew TAW at all wouldn't be on here leading the crusade against pixelated war crimes.

 

Don't try to drag my squad into all this. I have told my own personal views about it and if any squad is having a crusade on this topic here, it seems to be TWB. Also, your attempt to discredit my views, because my "squad barely flew TAW" has no point in my eyes. Firstly, every person has his own values, it does not matter if he belongs to a squad, a gang or is a lone wolf. Secondly, if the squad track record is that important to you, my squad has been flying IL-2 1946 SEOW campaigns years before BoS was even created and is currently mostly active on Storm of War campaign (CloD). Both IL-2 1946 and CloD have parachutes, so these TAW hours don't give any more authority to anybody's views. 

 

80hd: Do you get how absurd this is? "I am not gonna lose my honor because of a game."

 

That was direct response to [TWB]finoogles, who used similar wording to tell that he values winning in an online game more than his honor. I replied that my priorities are different. So like I have said, different people, different values. I did not lecture that my values are better or call his prioritization absurd. So don't you do that either.


So if we were playing the Pacific Theater you'd suddenly be fine with it since it would be historically more accurate in your view? Or would you still be decrying a lack of "honor?"

 

No, I don't shoot parachutes, no matter how "absurd" it might seem to any of you [TWB] guys. Should not be so hard to understand that.

Edited by II./JG77_Kemp
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-snip-

May God have mercy on your soul and your honor if you decide to play Mario Kart and get a red shell powerup. The velocity in which red shells hit those go-karts would kill a man. What would your family think? They're just trying to race!

Edited by [TWB]AbortedMan

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Anyone can help?

My mate created 3 accounts in TAW, he didn't know that everyone can own only one account in the server.

Now he always be kicked after clicking the start button, no matter which account he was using, even the original one.

So what can he do now? He don't know how to delete the other 2 accounts.

 

Thank you guys!

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Anyone can help?

My mate created 3 accounts in TAW, he didn't know that everyone can own only one account in the server.

Now he always be kicked after clicking the start button, no matter which account he was using, even the original one.

So what can he do now? He don't know how to delete the other 2 accounts.

 

Thank you guys!

 

 

Just in case a TAW admin doesn't see your post, it might be worth sending a Private message email  to     =LG=Kathon     as he should be able to resolve your problem if you explain it all to him.  However, reading other previous posts of a similar nature, it doesn't appear to be something that can't be sorted very quickly.  Hope that helps!!

 

Regards

 

 

will PM this to you as well.

Edited by Haza
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Anyone can help?

My mate created 3 accounts in TAW, he didn't know that everyone can own only one account in the server.

Now he always be kicked after clicking the start button, no matter which account he was using, even the original one.

So what can he do now? He don't know how to delete the other 2 accounts.

 

Thank you guys!

 

Same situation to me. I have decided to add sqd name and change name in my IL2 profile and need to create a new account in TAW, but when I press start, out of the game.

Just in case a TAW admin doesn't see your post, it might be worth sending a Private message email  to     =LG=Kathon     as he should be able to resolve your problem if you explain it all to him.  However, reading other previous posts of a similar nature, it doesn't appear to be something that can't be sorted very quickly.  Hope that helps!!

 

Regards

 

 

will PM this to you as well.

Tanks !!

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Just in case a TAW admin doesn't see your post, it might be worth sending a Private message email  to     =LG=Kathon     as he should be able to resolve your problem if you explain it all to him.  However, reading other previous posts of a similar nature, it doesn't appear to be something that can't be sorted very quickly.  Hope that helps!!

 

Regards

 

 

will PM this to you as well.

Thank you very much!

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Don't try to drag my squad into all this. I have told my own personal views about it and if any squad is having a crusade on this topic here, it seems to be TWB.

 

 

 

TNAVCwV.jpg

 

I mean... you know this is a forum, not the chat buffer in-game, right?  Because I cannot fathom how you can say this and be serious, unless you've forgotten that you started the monkey-poo flinging at a squad rather than an individual.

 

Your squad's lack of participation isn't a slam about participation, per se, nor is it a slam against your teammates at all, rather it simply begs the question: when were you jilted so hard in your short period of play that you decided to take up this crusade?

Your comeback is "NUH UH! YOU ARE!", and while that is indeed a powerful, tried and true, CLASSIC comeback, it doesn't really seem to work here... I showed you evidence of day one (well, technically day 2 since we're on the dark side of the planet) of TAW, right out of the gate, me getting massacred in my chute.  No one cried, no one whined, but some people on our side said "Oh, that's how it's going to be?" and decided to match tactics.

 

We can dance around the subject all we want, but the bottom line is that TWB drove objectives as Axis last game, with telling results, and drove objectives as Allied this game, again, with telling results.  Now, before someone throws a yellow flag, I am not at all trying to say that TWB won either of these maps.  We have a handful of really good pilots, a couple of solid tacticians, and a fairly large group that can sometimes be coaxed into following orders (I am neither of the former two, and only sometimes in the latter group, I just like to forum whore).  Pound for pound, 19.GIAP and =ART= are wholly more effective on average.

 

I say all that to say this:  You didn't protect your tanks, you didn't protect your airfields, you didn't protect your cities.

 

You can come and try to make this about video game honor (and you've clearly got a small but devoted following supporting you in this effort) and how shooting at bailed out 3d models is rude, and you can come and try to make this about how TWB gets sore when some Axis fighters refuse to actually participate in a Tactical Air War, and sometimes engages in robust and less than polite discourse in conveying this displeasure.

 

These are both points based in fact, with some level of merit.

 

However, neither of those avenues are going to result in addressing the underlying root-issue here:  the red, irritated nethers caused by an ego crushing 0 - 4 map deficit.

 

I'm not even talking smack here, sincerely.  If I was on a team that had been paddled like a naughty little cookie-making tree elf four times in a row, without a single notable reprisal, I know my morale would be crushed.  

 

Don't stop the honor crusade, or the "TWB whines when we refuse to fight even though we are flying the planes with all the cards in our favor" initiative... those paths have been well-cultivated, and may indeed bear some valuable fruit at some time in the future... but my advice?  Leave like one, maybe two guys on that front.

 

The rest, you're gonna want them to suit up, light those fires and kick those tires and get out there and dance.

 

Because unless you start killing our tanks, and our airfields, and stop us from doing the same to yours, this rustling is only going to intensify.  You're gonna have to get Zebra back in here to stream-snipe planes forming up on runways... is that what we want to be reduced to again?

 

0 - 4 ladies.... the power to turn this steamroll around is in YOUR hands.

 

This can be you, gents:

 

Miracle-on-Ice-%C2%A9Joe-Lippincott-1980

 

But you're going to have to believe in yourself, work together, and drive both the defense and the offense of the objectives on the ground.

 

 

:salute:

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