Tactical Air War

[AbortedMan]

Yep - Good point.

I dont read the whole forum, and I cant read the Russian forum, and although I probabaly recieved the Warning email, it doesn't apply to me so I would not have read it in detail. Yes - I am sure I will get over it. All I am trying to express is that people are far too quick to generalise....

Thanks for the sane and intelligent response. My comment was not to generalize or offend people, only to point out a fact that was given to us regarding the issue. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

 

In general, I find it mind boggling that people want to turn the other cheek on the issue. Whether it's thought to be legitimate or not, ignoring signs of foul play and citing the absence of 100% undeniable proof doesn't change the fact that cheating is 100% possible in this game and all online games. The devs changed the terms of service to remind everyone that cheating is punishable by permanent ban via a customer wide email. Clearly that's an acknowledgment of something everyone should be aware of in the first place.

[GOA_Walter_Nowotny]

Res were outnumbered in previous campaigns. Now is even as never.

 

For Blue 3xJu-88 with 2xSC1000 (6xSC1000 in total) and enemy airfield is closed.

 

100% agree but I dont see (when I am connected) 3 organized ju88 and 3-4 escort. Red yes. And see some videos on YT when 5-6 IL2 escorted with 5 fighters attack. As someone says, is more important the mission than go running to kill some enemy. Thats make the difference and explain 4-0 at this time. I am not prepared to use more fighter now, so I preffer to use bombers. Take alt and bomb, but not in sqd yet.

[II./JG77_Manu*]

 

 

In blue team beside the ZG guys everyone think he is hartmann

Pretty blunt generalization. I've met many on blue, non-ZG pilots who didn't think like that.

This statement is around as valuable as "beside 19GIAP, all in red team think they are antisocial communists, and are shooting chutes and ditched planes"

[AbortedMan]

Pretty blunt generalization. I've met many on blue, non-ZG pilots who didn't think like that.

This statement is around as valuable as "beside 19GIAP, all in red team think they are antisocial communists, and are shooting chutes and ditched planes"

I'm not sure if I can be considered an anti-social communist, but I am definitely shooting chutes and ditched planes.

[II./JG77_Manu*]

I'm not sure if I can be considered an anti-social communist, but I am definitely shooting chutes and ditched planes.

I know. Like pretty much your whole squadron. Very honorable!

[[TWB]dillon_biz]

I know. Like pretty much your whole squadron. Very honorable!

 

Pilot Attrition is a thing in this campaign.  Last campaign as German we were dangerously close to losing the war due to the amount of losses the German pilots were taking.  Although this campaign we seem to be closing out maps before it becomes an issue. 

 

It is a valid tactic, maybe a little below the belt, but its a video game.  

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[AbortedMan]

Honor doesn't capture bases!

[Aap]

I am definitely shooting chutes and ditched planes.

It is a valid tactic, maybe a little below the belt, but its a video game.  

 

Even if it is a video game, it tells a lot about your values as a person and as a squad. 

Edited October 12, 2016 by II./JG77_Kemp

[AbortedMan]

Even if it is a video game, it tells a lot about your values as a person and as a squad. 

If it's so taboo why is pilot tally a metric in which to count a defeat or a victory? Is it any different if I come up on you while you're flying unawares and fill your cockpit with bullets killing you instantly? You're just as defenseless in that scenario.

Edited October 12, 2016 by [TWB]AbortedMan

[[TWB]dillon_biz]

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.  Personally, I love watching the little *poof* when my 23mm HE round explodes on a dangling pilot's face.  

 

Not because "killed" a "person", but because I know that Mother Russia is one Fascist pilot closer to glorious victory!

 

 

Edited October 12, 2016 by [TWB]dillon_biz

[Aap]

If it's so taboo why is pilot tally a metric in which to count a defeat or a victory? Is it any different if I come up on you while you're flying unawares and fill your cockpit with bullets killing you instantly? You're just as defenseless in that scenario.

 

It is different indeed. Bailed out pilot is considered surrendered and should not be attacked. There are many discussions and even a poll about chute killing, so no need to go into the same debate again. And "killed pilot" is not a metric for victory in any air force, it is shot down plane.

Edited October 12, 2016 by II./JG77_Kemp

[AbortedMan]

Welp, just like other issues with the community, it's going to keep happening.

 

Better strap in tight.

[Aap]

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.  Personally, I love watching the little *poof* when my 23mm HE round explodes on a dangling pilot's face.    

Like I said, it shows the values of every person. Many aviators compared it to murder and that is against most people's values.  Different people, different values.

 

Not because "killed" a "person", but because I know that Mother Russia is one Fascist pilot closer to glorious victory!

At least we know that brainwashing has been effective.  

Edited October 12, 2016 by II./JG77_Kemp

[[TWB]dillon_biz]

 

 

It is different indeed. Bailed out pilot is considered surrendered and should not be attacked. There are many discussions and even a poll about chute killing, so no need to go into the same debate again. 

 

 

Where is this poll?

 

Does it have any bearing or influence on the rules of TAW?

 

How many people who play SP exclusively voted?

 

Seems to me like it is simply an opinion poll on whether or not, in a hypothetical situation, you would kill someone in a parachute in real combat.

 

In the case as described above, the circumstances of war would dictate that answer. 

 

I cannot even begin to imagine what would be going through the mind of a German aviator in WW2 who might observe the sky filled with the parachures of allied aviators.

 

He might think: Wow, if I kill enough of these helpless aviators maybe the other side would be discouraged to send more pilots our way.  Or maybe he would think after years of death that enough is enough and spare them.  

 

On the Other side an allied aviator may condemn a German to death because he may think that it would discourage the Fascist regime from fighting, thus end the war quicker.  Or he may spare them, thinking they may have endured enough already.  

 

This, I do not know.  I cannot even imagine... The history in which we replicate here in our virtual arena is a grim story.  WW2 was the deadliest conflict in human history. A conflict for which the consequences are felt even today. 

 

BUT: This is a Video Game, and one of the win conditions in this particular scenario is killing a predetermined amount (900) of opposition pilots.  Sorry, but I am not sorry for killing pilots as a means toward that end.

 

I expect the same ruthlessness from our axis counterparts, given their current status in the campaign standings, but as it stands they can't even organize their way out of a wet paper bag.  Let alone win a TAW frame. 

 

Good luck!

 

And Salute!

Edited October 12, 2016 by [TWB]dillon_biz

[Aap]

Where is this poll?

It is under the section, called "Polls".

 

Does it have any bearing or influence on the rules of TAW?

No. It is actually a very good choice of TAW not to put rules about that part. It allows every person and squad to show their own values in that matter. 

 

How many people who play SP exclusively voted?

I don't think it was differentiated in a poll there, but you can check yourself.

 

In the case as described above, the circumstances of war would dictate that answer. 

Like I said, I don't plan to go into the same discussion that has been done many times, but in the real circumstances of war most real pilots considered chute killing unacceptable and even compared it to murder.

 

I cannot even begin to imagine what would be going through the mind of a German aviator in WW2 who might observe the sky filled with the parachures of allied aviators.

If you can not imagine, you can always read up on what German aviators generally thought of chute killing. 

Edited October 12, 2016 by II./JG77_Kemp

[[TWB]dillon_biz]

And the rest of my post?

[II./JG77_Manu*]

A few days ago i didn't even know about that TWB squadron, but since i started flying in TaW and joining the TS i heard quite some stories. Don't make my mind up before witnessing behavior myself, but myy..it's really living up to it's reputation.

Anyway, i am out of this discussion. No cure against brainwashing

[kileab]

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/24178-do-you-think-chutekilling-acceptable

 

We already discussed this problem. 70% of the BoS Community is against this behavior (according to this poll).

No need to continue

Edited October 12, 2016 by -IRRE-Biluf

[Haza]

Kemp,

 

 I wouldn't waste anymore time trying to explain things here as you will end up going round and round in circles, so perhaps you are better off being the mature one by dropping the issue.

 

Whether the replies from the TWB membership are either just stirring you up for a bit of fun or whether there is an element of arrogance there,  I would like to think that it doesn't reflect on the rest of the TWB membership.  If it does, I for one would be disappointed, as having dealt with a member of TWB,  I thought they appeared to be a group who were mature and above all of this pettiness. However, I'm sure only time will tell.  

 

Therefore, before this whole situation spirals out of control, let's move on!

 

Regards

 

Phil (Haza)  

 

Edited to remove line spacing carried over from word doc.

Edited October 12, 2016 by Haza

[AbortedMan]

Hahaha @bringing real-life morality values into comparisons of actions in a video game.

 

I press a button on my joystick that lights up pixels that light up other pixels on your pixel pilot's pixels, then I check your pilot profile on the TAW website and see your streak and combat missions go to zero. I'm a bad person.

[72AG_Crusader]

Better organization, common language and TS, numerous advantage in morning hours... If you sum up all that factors then you probably get the winner.

 

But it's all about winning? Isn't it interesting when sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. Playing in deep defense and being under the constant pressure is much more interesting and provide more emotions than boring balance or constant equilibrium on the front line. 

It's not interesting to play when you cannot win. Because at morning 1 man can pull down the toilet all your efforts you made during evening bloodshed. Quorum must be.

Edited October 12, 2016 by 72AG_Crusader

[[TWB]dillon_biz]

A few days ago i didn't even know about that TWB squadron, but since i started flying in TaW and joining the TS i heard quite some stories. Don't make my mind up before witnessing behavior myself, but myy..it's really living up to it's reputation.

Anyway, i am out of this discussion. No cure against brainwashing

 

Are you the same Manu that has been in and out of our TeamSpeak the past couple of months? I hope not, because I like that Manu, and this post would do some work to tarnish that Manu's reputation in my eyes. 

 

Not sure what 'reputation' you're referring to, but if it's as spicy as you make it out to be then hot damn I like it.  

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/24178-do-you-think-chutekilling-acceptable

 

We already discussed this problem. 70% of the BoS Community is against this behavior (according to this poll).

No need to continue

 

Biluf! I'm waiting for your clean cockpit mods from WT on the RU aircraft here, lord knows we need them!

 

In regards to your post: it is a mechanic of the game, and also a method of victory on this particular server that we find ourselves attracted to.  It's a shitty situation, but its a reality that we all have to deal with.   I and some, but not all, of my comrades choose to use that mechanic to our advantage.  "70% of the BoS" community doesn't mean much to me when an unknown percentage of the people that voted in that poll participate in this campaign.  

 

 

Kemp,

 

 I wouldn't waste anymore time trying to explain things here as you will end up going round and round in circles, so perhaps you are better off being the mature one by dropping the issue.

 

Whether the replies from the TWB membership are either just stirring you up for a bit of fun or whether there is an element of arrogance there,  I would like to think that it doesn't reflect on the rest of the TWB membership.  If it does, I for one would be disappointed, as having dealt with a member of TWB,  I thought they appeared to be a group who were mature and above all of this pettiness. However, I'm sure only time will tell.  

 

Therefore, before this whole situation spirals out of control, let's move on!

 

Regards

 

Phil (Haza)  

 

Edited to remove line spacing carried over from word doc.

 

 

I'm not sure I would label taking the "virtual moral high ground" as being mature.  I would actually considering shying out of a, what I consider a relatively civil, debate on game mechanics a cop out (read: childish response).  You have your opinion, I have mine.  I choose to act on mine which makes you and others angry.  I've presented my argument and the response from the opposition is to conclude that they are correct "because reasons"

[kileab]

Well, as chutekilling sometimes happened during the war, you will have to deal with the crap VVS canopy in this game too because it is historic.

After we had a strong argument about chutekilling in this topic, the pilot limit has appeared in the following campaign because the squadron =LG= is favorable to chutekilling.

All squadrons with which I fly are against this practice and we stand to it. We like to fly clean.

Edited October 12, 2016 by -IRRE-Biluf

[[TWB]dillon_biz]

 

Well, as chutekilling sometimes happened during the war, you will have to deal with the crap VVS canopy in this game too because it is historic.

After we had a strong argument about chutekilling in this topic, the pilot limit has appeared in the following campaign because the squadron =FG= is favorable to chutekilling.

All squadrons with which I fly are against this practice and we stand to it. We like to fly clean.

 

Fair enough sir!  

 

Sorry you can't do anything about the cockpit glass, 'tis a shame. 

 

Who is FG? Did you mean LG? They operate this server.

 

Had pilot deaths not been implemented as a win condition I am sure this would have been a non-issue.  Alas, we find ourselves at this impasse. 

[kileab]

LG, sorry

[[TWB]finoogles]

Holy cannolis people it just a game, if shooting shoots wins the game then it's gunna happen get over it already. I'm not gunna sit here and lose a GAME (Campaign) because of honer, I'm gunna shoot down as many shoots as I can if it means winning and you should too.

[Aap]

Holy cannolis people it just a game, if shooting shoots wins the game then it's gunna happen get over it already. I'm not gunna sit here and lose a GAME (Campaign) because of honer, I'm gunna shoot down as many shoots as I can if it means winning and you should too.

 

It does not bother me personally, if someone decides to shoot chutes in a game. That is his choice, his values. I would not do it. I am not gonna lose my honor because of a game.

From here, I follow the good suggestion from Haza, and leave the argument at that. No need to go around in circles about a topic that has gone through lots of rounds and circles already.

Edited October 12, 2016 by II./JG77_Kemp

[kileab]

(...) I'm not gunna sit here and lose a GAME (Campaign) because of honer (...)

 

Like you said, it's just a game. And other people are playing the same game. People who are hanged to their chute and can't do anything.

[FTC_DerSheriff]

For me chute killing is like tea bagging in Shooters. So i dont do it, I dont like it. There are other ways of winning.

[[TWB]Hawx04]

So people here wants to dishonour and uncredit our squadron because we killing pilots which is basically the main objective of the campaign (last time it was, now its been such a beating that didn´t matter), if you want "honor" simulation go play a roleplay server, we have a huge difference in chances of being captured, its not fair, some of us coordinate to win, as simple as that, I wouldn´t shoot a parachute in real life and I didn´t have the chance here but expect PK if is one of the main objectives of the server.

 

Salute

 

Like you said, it's just a game. And other people are playing the same game. People who are hanged to their chute and can't do anything.

 

Oh really? I wonder why he bailed 

[kileab]

It is amusing to observe that this behavior is directly related to the squadron to which people belong.

Generally, this is the squadron who is for or against, not really the pilot individually.

[Haza]

Are you the same Manu that has been in and out of our TeamSpeak the past couple of months? I hope not, because I like that Manu, and this post would do some work to tarnish that Manu's reputation in my eyes. 

 

Not sure what 'reputation' you're referring to, but if it's as spicy as you make it out to be then hot damn I like it.  

 

 

Biluf! I'm waiting for your clean cockpit mods from WT on the RU aircraft here, lord knows we need them!

 

In regards to your post: it is a mechanic of the game, and also a method of victory on this particular server that we find ourselves attracted to.  It's a shitty situation, but its a reality that we all have to deal with.   I and some, but not all, of my comrades choose to use that mechanic to our advantage.  "70% of the BoS" community doesn't mean much to me when an unknown percentage of the people that voted in that poll participate in this campaign.  

 

 

I'm not sure I would label taking the "virtual moral high ground" as being mature.  I would actually considering shying out of a, what I consider a relatively civil, debate on game mechanics a cop out (read: childish response).  You have your opinion, I have mine.  I choose to act on mine which makes you and others angry.  I've presented my argument and the response from the opposition is to conclude that they are correct "because reasons"

 

Dillion,

 

Not sure how you came to the conclusion that I was angry, as fed-up or bemused would have been more appropriate.

 

I concur with your sentiments that we all have an opinion, however, eventually a line has to be drawn under the discussion to move on as otherwise each side starts to try to get one up on the other side.  No matter how civil people try to be, these discussion appear to end up becoming either personal, nasty or just silly, as everybody believes that they are correct and have the evidence to prove it!!.  I for one have found some of the replies to be childish and rather pointless from both sides, however that is just my opinion.

 

Therefore, my request could have been sent to either Kemp or AbortedMan, however, I believed that Kemp was more inclined and receptive at that stage to take friendly advice rather than AbortedMan.  As we keep hearing, this is after all a video game and there are more important things to deal with in all of our real lives, therefore in this instance I think it does takes a bigger person (whether they are deemed to be mature or not) to just back away. 

 

 

Regards

Edited October 12, 2016 by Haza

[[TWB]otavio]

 

 

 

 

 

 

[[TWB]dillon_biz]

Haza,

 

Couldn't agree more.  The discussion does seem to revolve in an endless tug of war of who can either try to take the moral high ground or bring it back to reality.  

 

Biluf, 

 

Not sure what you meant by the statement you made.  I'll choose to take it as the old saying goes: "birds of a feather flock together" and nothing more.  I hope you didn't intend any ill will.  

 

With that said, I hope others on the other side of the fence do not take my, and some of the The Wet Bandits', stance on this subject as a gesture of disrespect.  It is simply a difference of opinion.  

 

In the previous campaign, as German, we nearly lost the war specifically due to pilot attrition.  The team as a whole identified and adjusted to compensate for that factor.  This campaign we sought to never let that become the case.  

 

Admittedly, the current war is turning out to be a landslide for which such actions aren't really necessary.  However, we've set a policy and, while I cannot speak for each individual in our squadron, I intend to adhere to that policy.

 

Next campaign we will by flying for the Germans and welcome the same ruthlessness with open arms. 

 

Cheers!

 

And Salute to all those pilots taking part in what is clearly the greatest multiplayer server this game has yet to offer!

 

And don't pay attention to otavio, he's... special...

Edited October 12, 2016 by [TWB]dillon_biz

[[TWB]ec0ke]

For me chute killing is like tea bagging in Shooters. So i dont do it, I dont like it. There are other ways of winning.

Yes on a normal server like WoL. But here it is a objective to win. Imagine Battlefield like that 10000 teabags to win the match. Everybody would do it.

 

As for me. I am not in (atm) because we are winning anyway.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

We want realistic simulation of war combat - shooting innocent as one can see chutkilling was part of that war. Mostly germans did that and definitely they started it. Do it or not - real pilots had choise we have also.

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

Think this discussion is pointless in general, since the arguments from both sides do not revolve around the same point

 

On one hand you have people playing for the immersion aspect, so the game for them is a mixture of role-play and sim - of course they do not chute kill b/c they would not do the same thing in reality, hence the moral standard.

 

Others view it as a game, that they want to win - simple as that, like Super Mario (no one thinks of the moral consequence of jumping on those poor turtles, right?).

 

People saying that chute killers have no honor etc. do not consider the point that they are lacking the immersion aspect. That's not a question of moral standards. They just have a different perception of the game. I like the immersion too, but making chute killing a question of moral integrity is flawed reasoning and unfair.

[II./JG77_Manu*]

We want realistic simulation of war combat - shooting innocent as one can see chutkilling was part of that war. Mostly germans did that and definitely they started it. Do it or not - real pilots had choise we have also.

As blatant lie as it gets. Couldn't be further from the truth

[AbortedMan]

As blatant lie as it gets. Couldn't be further from the truth

Yeah I'm sure Luftwaffe pilots were angels that did nothing immoral ever so how dare this be said. Also, I doubt anyone from the either side were eager to put in their reports that they spent rounds on a pilot in a parachute, so take that into account.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

As blatant lie as it gets. Couldn't be further from the truth

What is lie, please be specific? That german soldiers did not murderd milons of innocent civilans or did LW pilots start shooting to parachutist in Battle of England?

Edited October 12, 2016 by 307_Tomcat