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IL-2 STURMOVIK : BATTLE OF KUBAN

Battle for the Kuban  

138 members have voted

  1. 1. This would make a great follow on expansion

    • Yes
      45
    • Yes however I have suggestiosn for s different plane set
      28
    • Maybe after a different theatre or war
      55
    • No
      10


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A special mention to Aleksandr Fedorovich Klubov, considered an unrivalled master in terms of planning attacks (quoting a wingman, 'if you flew with Klubov you knew there would be victories'). At age 20, in Novamber 1942, he was attacked by German ace Grislawski in his I-153 of 84 IAP. Despite the aircraft being on fire, he nursed it back to his lines before crashing on the field, suffering severe burns. Nonetheless, the esteem for materiel and the lenghts Klubov went to try and save the aircraft show what he was made of.

 

In addition to his four victories flying the I-153, upon his return to the front on May 1943 until his untimely death on the 1st November 1944 (an La-7 accident due to mechanical failure on a test flight) Klubov scored 27 victories plus 19 shared flying the P-39.

 

klubov2.jpg

Edited by Lucas_From_Hell

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Erich Hartmann: 352 kills, 351 between 1943 and 1945 against Soviet Union/USA

Gerhard Barkhorn: 301 kills, 199 between 1943 and 1945 against Soviet Union

Günther Rall: 275 kills, ~150 of them between 1943 and 1945, against Soviet Union/USA

Otto Kittel: 267 kills, 242 between 1943 and 1945 against Soviet Union

Walter Nowotny: 258 kills, 199 between 1943 and 1944 against Soviet Union/USA

Wilhelm Batz: 237 kills, all of them between 1943 and 1945 against Soviet Union

Hermann Graf: 212 kills, 170 of them between 1942 and 1944 against Soviet Union/USA

Heinrich Ehrler: 208 kills, 163 of them between 1943 and 1945, against Soviet Union, USA, and England 

Helmut Lipfert: 203 kills, all of them between 1943 and 1945 against Soviet Union/USA

 

Those are the most successful pilots of WW2..you can google the rest if you want, but the picture stays the same.

Your statement is so blatantly wrong, that it's almost funny. It isn't only false, in fact it was completely the other way round. The German aces scored most of their kills in the late war, against aircraft pretty much on par. 

You wanna call Soviet Union a "minor nation", and La7, Yak9M, La5FN, Yak 3 obsolete, junk aircraft? 

 

Well done mate, well done.....

You might wanna check the those pilots' number of kills against the USAAF and elite VVS units flying Yak 3 and La 7.

 

Hint: They can be counted on one hand.

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You might wanna check the those pilots' number of kills against the USAAF and elite VVS units flying Yak 3 and La 7.

 

Hint: They can be counted on one hand.

So only elite units count now as kill? I guess the best non-German ace had 1 kill then..maybe 2.

Edited by II./JG77_Manu*

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So only elite units count now as kill? I guess the best non-German ace had 1 kill then..maybe 2.

 

Yeah, cuz the rest of the VVS were complete trash, poorly trained pilots that weren't even trained in aerobatics, deflection shooting, using little radio communication, no proper gun sights.

 

I can kill 1000 easy AIs, does it make me as good as Ze_hairy or Solty? Of course not.

Edited by GrapeJam

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Yeah, cuz the rest of the VVS were complete trash, poorly trained pilots that weren't even trained in aerobatics, deflection shooting, using little radio communication, no proper gun sights.

 

I can kill 1000 easy AIs, does it make me as good as Ze_hairy or Solty? Of course not.

Aha, so Yak9T/U/M, La5FN, and P39-Q are all trash. Soviet pilots at 1944 were badly trained. Soviet aircraft didn't use radio till the end. 

Seems valid

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Aha, so Yak9T/U/M, La5FN, and P39-Q are all trash. Soviet pilots at 1944 were badly trained. Soviet aircraft didn't use radio till the end. 

Seems valid

 

Comparing to their contemporary, yes. The average Soviet pilots were still very badly trained till the end of the war, yes. Yak 9T was basically a 1942 Yak 9 with 37 mm cannon, Yak 9U ,Yak 9M only appeared toward late 1944, and only in very few number, the La 5FN in late 1943 were only introduced very limited, and performed nowhere near as well as the mid 1944 version.

 

Oh and BTW, Soviet aircraft rarely performed according to spec, the lack of high octane fuel meaning lend lease aircrafts also usually severely underperformed. ;)

Edited by GrapeJam

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Comparing to their contemporary, yes. The average Soviet pilots were still very badly trained till the end of the war, yes. Yak 9T was basically a 1942 Yak 9 with 37 mm cannon, Yak 9U ,Yak 9M only appeared toward late 1944, and only in very few number, the La 5FN in late 1943 were only introduced very limited, and performed nowhere near as well as the mid 1944 version.

 

Oh and BTW, Soviet aircraft rarely performed according to spec, the lack of high octane fuel meaning lend lease aircrafts also usually severely underperformed. ;)

So you are basically saying, that different Yak9 versions,the La5FN, and the Kobra (an aircraft, preferred by many Aces over all the Russian aircraft till the end of the war) are all clearly inferior to the obsolete 109 G6 (which is by the way worse in performance then 1941 F4), which was the main fighter on the eastern front? 

Interesting :)

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So you are basically saying, that different Yak9 versions,the La5FN, and the Kobra (an aircraft, preferred by many Aces over all the Russian aircraft till the end of the war) are all clearly inferior to the obsolete 109 G6 (which is by the way worse in performance then 1941 F4), which was the main fighter on the eastern front? 

Interesting :)

 

The G6 didn't remain the same throughout it's service you know? First, the ban on 1.42 ata was lifted toward the end of 1943, and then in early 1944 MW50 system was introduced.

 

And as I said, Soviets aircrafts in practice rarely performed according to spec, take for example, the La5FN has a spec speed at SL of 587 km/h, the Soviets conducted a test of front line aircrafts, and the best they got was 550km/h. And also I need to mention that Soviet aircrafts weren't built to last and thus their performance degraded very quickly ;)

 

Oh, and elite VVS units got supply of new aircraft and high octane fuel priority over regular units of course.

Edited by GrapeJam

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And as I said, Soviets aircrafts in practice rarely performed according to spec, take for example, the La5FN has a spec speed at SL of 587 km/h, the Soviets conducted a test of front line aircrafts, and the best they got was 550km/h. And also I need to mention that Soviet aircrafts weren't built to less and thus their performance degraded very quickly

Interesting. You are also going to man up and say something publicly, when they will model it different in this game? 

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Interesting. You are also going to man up and say something publicly, when they will model it different in this game? 

Why not? WT did the same with the La5FN, and it was finally balanced that way.

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Why not? WT did the same with the La5FN, and it was finally balanced that way.

Ok. Looking forward to those days. Not joking. (Doesn't mean that i agree with you in all)

Edited by II./JG77_Manu*

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Luftwaffel suffered from the mentality that the war would be over by christmas until 1942, by then it was too late building up the pilot pool and change tactics. The free hunt principle in eastern front was indeed a good place to be if you want to be a ace, but for what purpose. When in my point of view Russia suffered a what should have been a devastating blow from Barbarossa to Kuban campaign. But they could apparently afford it. So what did really Germany achieve by this. 

It is to the point of ridiculous attacking a huge country like USSR without the possibility giving a strategic backup to the campaign. At no point did Germany halter the supplies of men and material.

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German leadership tried to delay the invasion because of the lacking number of tanks, supplies and men planed for the invasion (as well as the well known threat of not gaining victory before winter) but the attack was ordered neverthanless.

 

Part of the reason was to prevent the soviet forces to launch an attack on their own, which was a well known intention given both parties gathered a lot of men an material along the ex-polish border. When the invasion was launched russian troops were still busy with attack preparations. That's also one of the reason why the german advance was quite sucessfull in the beginning.

Edited by Stab/JG26_5tuka

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To me it seems that what really doomed the Wermacht (or rather, led them to commit to such a massive undertaking with such little resources) was the piss-poor intelligence work done there. They underestimated the Air Force inventories, the quality of the tanks and aircraft, they expected Soviet soldiers to be demoralised and quickly overran without putting up much of a fight, and they thought the Soviet Union was full-on set on launching an attack, which again was a misconception - give 'Stalin's General' by Geoffrey Roberts a read, it's an excellent book that covers the work done atop the Soviet command chain from the 1930s until the middle of the Cold War, with hard archival evidence and reports from multiple Soviet officers who worked at STAVKA at the time. Despite popular belief, the Soviet Union did not want to launch an attack but rather have everything up for a counter-attack to defeat Germany after holding back the initial blow. Interestingly enough this remained the general strategy throughout the war, and through the 1941-1942 Rzhev-Mozhaysk operations they fought they could achieve just that, but then the German 1942 Caucasus attack came and thwarted those intentions.

Edited by Lucas_From_Hell

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Part of the reason was to prevent the soviet forces to launch an attack on their own, which was a well known intention given both parties gathered a lot of men an material along the ex-polish border. When the invasion was launched russian troops were still busy with attack preparations.

 

 

This bit is fairy tale history.  There were no soviet plans for an offensive westward in the spring/summer of 1941.  What there was, was a disastrous forward deployment of troops, along the entire soviet western borders at Stalin's insistence.  He was still an amateur general then.  

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https://youtu.be/tlA0lcy9s-Y?list=PLT2Ce_1-whHhlG_AXsf0J7tkWFPC26tZO​

 

In case any of you guys grew up watching the Discovery Channel Wings series, here is a video for your enjoyment. Most of these series and episodes are available on YouTube. This is from , Wings of the Luftwaffe which is still one of my favorite series. At 21:40, Gunther Rall touches on some aspects of the Eastern Front and about the many victories racked up against obsolete and poorly trained Soviet Airforce. As the video progress, they talk about the more advanced, (late war) Soviet Aircraft and aircrews. This is Wings of the Luftwaffe -FW-190 Butcher Bird. Fantastic episode solely on the 190. Numerous other episodes are attached to this video on YouTube. I recommend watching the whole thing if you have the time. Still lots of good info in these videos.

 

Cheers!

 

https://youtu.be/tlA0lcy9s-Y?list=PLT2Ce_1-whHhlG_AXsf0J7tkWFPC26tZO

Edited by II./JG53_Reagan505

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Thanks for the link, Reagan, I'll try to watch it once I have time.

 

In the meantime, my recommendation to you, from the other side of the front, a series of interviews with Aleksandr Pokryshkin and a number of 16 GIAP pilots. Very interesting and extremely personal documentary, I really enjoyed it.

 

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Thanks for the link, Reagan, I'll try to watch it once I have time.

 

In the meantime, my recommendation to you, from the other side of the front, a series of interviews with Aleksandr Pokryshkin and a number of 16 GIAP pilots. Very interesting and extremely personal documentary, I really enjoyed it.

 

 

Awesome, I'll watch that for sure Lucas, thanks for sharing.

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https://youtu.be/tlA0lcy9s-Y?list=PLT2Ce_1-whHhlG_AXsf0J7tkWFPC26tZO​

 

In case any of you guys grew up watching the Discovery Channel Wings series, here is a video for your enjoyment. Most of these series and episodes are available on YouTube. This is from , Wings of the Luftwaffe which is still one of my favorite series. At 21:40, Gunther Rall touches on some aspects of the Eastern Front and about the many victories racked up against obsolete and poorly trained Soviet Airforce. As the video progress, they talk about the more advanced, (late war) Soviet Aircraft and aircrews. This is Wings of the Luftwaffe -FW-190 Butcher Bird. Fantastic episode solely on the 190. Numerous other episodes are attached to this video on YouTube. I recommend watching the whole thing if you have the time. Still lots of good info in these videos.

 

Cheers!

 

https://youtu.be/tlA0lcy9s-Y?list=PLT2Ce_1-whHhlG_AXsf0J7tkWFPC26tZO

 

That 3/4 scale Fw 190 was for sale last year for 80k. I considered it until I discovered how poorly it has been maintained over the last two decades. Now I am gonna build a Titan T-51 with their big (scale) wing and V8 powerplant.

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Erich Hartmann: 352 kills, 351 between 1943 and 1945 against Soviet Union/USA

Gerhard Barkhorn: 301 kills, 199 between 1943 and 1945 against Soviet Union

Günther Rall: 275 kills, ~150 of them between 1943 and 1945, against Soviet Union/USA

Otto Kittel: 267 kills, 242 between 1943 and 1945 against Soviet Union

Walter Nowotny: 258 kills, 199 between 1943 and 1944 against Soviet Union/USA

Wilhelm Batz: 237 kills, all of them between 1943 and 1945 against Soviet Union

 Those are the most successful pilots of WW2..you can google the rest if you want, but the picture stays the same. Your statement is so blatantly wrong, that it's almost funny. It isn't only false, in fact it was completely the other way round. The German aces scored most of their kills in the late war, against aircraft pretty much on par.  You wanna call Soviet Union a "minor nation", and La7, Yak9M, La5FN, Yak 3 obsolete, junk aircraft? 

 

This is from , Wings of the Luftwaffe which is still one of my favorite series. At 21:40, Gunther Rall touches on some aspects of the Eastern Front and about the many victories racked up against obsolete and poorly trained Soviet Airforce.

 

It's not only about the aircraft, obsolete or more modern, but the way Luftwaffe operated there. And most importantly, how comes that they scored hundreds of kills and yet lost the war in the air ? 

Well, the answer may be quite surprising :

 

http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/golodnikov/part4.htm

 

A.S. It is well known that the Germans frequently built a group of fighters as an ace and his “support and cover team”. How often did the Germans employ this method and what, in your view, were the shortcomings of this method of conduct of battle?

N.G. In the first half of the war, the Germans very broadly employed the tactic “one or two fight and six provide cover”. This also occurred at the end of the war, but significantly less often. Of the most well known who worked with a “cover group”, in the Far North we had Müller. [Rudolph Müller, JG 5, 94 victories, shot down and captured on 19 April 1943—JG]

Later, when the Luftwaffe began to experience a serious shortage of fighter aircraft, they were forced to abandon this method. They had already expended a large quantity of serviceable aircraft. It seems that the pilots who were tied down in covering the ace were unable to do anything else.

When they attacked our bombers, we, naturally, were providing cover. When we became more experienced, we did not bother with the cover group but immediately organized an attack on the ace. The rest of them, all of his “team”, abandoned the bombers and threw themselves on us, which was precisely what we wanted. Our primary mission was to protect the bombers and, it turned out, that the Germans by their own tactics helped us to accomplish our mission. Of course, one could amass an astronomical personal score by this method, with the assistance of a team. But from the point of view of strategy, this method was a failure.

In general this method can be employed, but only if you have serious numerical superiority, along with a “free hunt”. Near the end of the war, we began to fly “free hunt” more frequently. We had numerical superiority, which permitted us to do this. We went out in fours, as a rule, but at tree-top level. We already knew where their lines of communication were and where transport aircraft flew. We went out, struck at them, and immediately departed the area. We did not fly on “free hunt” when we were few in number.

 

A.S. Tell us, Nikolay Gerasimovich, what were the weak aspects of German fighter pilots in 1942?

 

N.G. They had none of the weaknesses that hit you in the face. They were very calculating and did not like to take risks. They liked to get kills. They really made money on this.

 

A.S. This was a shortcoming?

 

N.G. Often, yes. We also got paid for our kills, but for us this bounty was the least of our concerns. It was not that way for the Germans. If they shot someone down, they received money. If they did not discard their drop tanks, they also got paid.

 

A.S. Was it common for them not to discard their drop tanks?

 

N.G. Yes, frequently. Several times we were attacked by German fighters still holding their drop tanks and we couldn’t understand why the pilot did not drop his tank before an attack. Then POWs explained that they paid something for a drop tank brought back—its full value or a fraction of their full value. This is how they conducted aerial combat: to make sure to shoot someone down and remain untouched themselves.

 

A.S. What’s so bad about that?

 

N.G. Often, in order to be victorious, one has to risk it all and tilt the battle in one’s own favor. But the Germans did not like to take risks. If they felt that the battle was equal or was just beginning to develop not in their favor, they preferred to withdraw from combat more quickly.

 

A.S. Well, that’s correct. The next time they might win it all.

 

N.G. It depends! There are times when situation does not repeat itself. There are such battles when one must fight to the death—there will be no “next time”.

 

A.S. Can you give us an example?

 

N.G. The defense of a facility or convoy against the attack of bombers, or escorting one’s own bombers. Here you die, you provide the escort, without any “next time”.

And just the same German fighter pilots had a single, overarching deficiency. A serious shortcoming, in my opinion.

The Germans could be engaged in battle when it was entirely unnecessary. For example, during the escorting of their own bombers. The whole war we took advantage of this. One group tied down the escort fighters in combat, attracting the fighters to themselves, while the other group attacked the German bombers.

The Germans jumped at a chance for a kill. They abandoned the bombers immediately and ignored the fact that our other group would shoot down the bombers, so long as we had the strength.

 

A.S. I didn’t think the German escorts would be so careless.

 

N.G. Well, how else could we, flying Hurricanes, shoot down the German bombers? Had they covered their bombers like we protected ours, we never would have gotten to them.

Overall, I got the impression that bombers were not a priority in the Luftwaffe. Their priority was fighters and then reconnaissance. One had unbelievable freedom of action and the other had the very best cover. But bombers, this was a “flat iron”. Hey, they have gunners—they fend off attackers or they don’t—whatever happens, it’s on them.

Formally, the Germans escorted their attack formations very heavily, but just get involved in battle and poof—the cover evaporated. It was relatively easy to distract them and it remained so for the entire war.

At the beginning of the war, in one of these distraction engagements, the Germans were lured away unbelievably easily, because our fighters were always in the minority and in technical and tactical characteristics were less capable.

The likelihood that the German pilots would shoot someone down was high. They were glad to become engaged in any battle, just give them a reason. It was clear that they were paid very good money for each victory. This cavalierness surprises me to this day.

 

A.S. Nikolay Gerasimovich, you have implied that by the end of the war the German pilots openly disregarded their duties for covering troops and facilities. How was this manifested?

 

N.G. An example. We were escorting shturmoviks. German fighters showed up and circled around but did not attack. They were too few in number. Our Il-2s were working over the front line area—the Germans still did not attack. They concentrated and brought in fighters from other sectors. The Il-2s departed from the target area just as the Germans launched their attack. By this time the Germans had concentrated and had gained numerical superiority of 3:1. What was the sense in this attack? The Il-2s had already done their work. Only for personal score. This happened often.

 

A.S. Wow!

 

N.G. Yes, and there were even more interesting cases.

 

A.S. More interesting?

 

N.G. The Germans had a habit of circling around us but not attacking. They were not fools; their intelligence was working. Red-nosed Airacobras belonged to the 2d GIAP VVS KSF [Guards Fighter Air Regiment, Air Forces of Red-Banner Northern Fleet]. They were not about to lose their heads by tangling with the elite Guards. They might get shot down. It was better to wait around for easier prey. Very calculating.

 

A.S. Nikolay Gerasimovich, in you view, what explains the tendency of German pilots toward enlargement of their personal score?

 

N.G. To us it was crazy. You know, when we shot down Müller, they brought him in to us. I remember him well. Average height, athletic build, red-haired. We were surprised that he was only an oberfeldvebel [master sergeant]. This was an ace with more than 90 victories! I still remember how surprising it was to learn that his father was a simple tailor.

Well, this Müller, when we asked him about Hitler, declared that politics did not motivate him; he did not have any hatred toward Russians. He was a “sportsman”; results were important to him and he wanted to shoot down more. His “cover group” engaged in combat and he, the “sportsman”, struck or did not strike as he pleased.

I got the impression that many German fighter pilots were just such “sportsmen”. It was all about money and glory.

 

A.S. Well, let’s agree that for the German fighter pilots—“sportsmen”—the war was a form of sport. What was the war for our pilots, for you personally?

 

N.G. It was the same for me as for all the rest. Work. Back-breaking, bloody, dirty, fearsome, and never-ending work. To withstand which was possible only because we were defending the Motherland. It was nothing close to a sport.

 

A.S. Nikolay Gerasimovich, it is a well-known fact that in the Luftwaffe, especially in the second half of the war, very often German fighter pilots had the right of independent selection of the place and time of combat. A kind of freedom of action that Allied fighter pilots could not even dream of. In your view, was this a strength of the German fighter command or, conversely, a weakness?

 

N.G. This was a “loophole”—an attempt to interest the fighter pilots to operate more actively. By all accounts, this measure did not bring any positive results.

Bear in mind that a pilot does not want to fly into those situations where the fate of the war will be decided. They order him to go there because he would not go there on his own. By human nature everyone wants to be a survivor. And “freedom” gives the fighter pilot the “legal” possibility to avoid these places. A “loophole” is transformed into a “hole”.

“Free hunt” was the most preferred method of conduct of the war for a pilot and the least preferred for his army. Why? Because the interests of the rank-and-file pilot almost always basically diverged from the interests both of his own command and of the commander of the forces that his aviation unit supported.

To give complete freedom of actions to all the fighter pilots would be the same as giving complete freedom to all the infantry soldiers on the battlefield. Go where you want, dig in where you want, and shoot when you want. This is absurd. An infantryman cannot know where and when he is most needed because he cannot possibly see the battlefield as a whole.

The same is true of the fighter pilot—the foot soldier of the air war. He could rarely determine correctly both the place and time that he was most needed. A simple rule applied here—the fewer fighter planes (and airplanes in general) one had, the more centralized had to be their command and control. Not the reverse. Fewer in number but employed only in those places were needed and only at the time required, not distracted to the accomplishment of secondary tasks.

It must be said that in the Luftwaffe “free hunt” was used very often in the first half of the war when they had numerical superiority, and less in the second half of the war. One cannot disregard the “free hunt” as a legitimate tactic. In some sectors German “hunters” inflicted significant losses on us, particularly in transport aircraft.

It should also be stated that after the aerial battles on the “Blue Line” [Kuban, summer 1943—JG], the Luftwarffe gradually lost overall air superiority. Toward the end of the war, when air superiority had been completely lost, “free hunt” remained the only method of conduct of battle by German fighter aviation by which they obtained any kind of positive result. In places away from the principal contested areas, they would occasionally “catch” someone. By this time it had become a matter of inflicting a loss—any loss—on the enemy. These “hunts” could not possibly have any effect on the outcome of the war.

 

A.S. Yes, but the scores of the aces were in the hundreds. Wasn’t there a direct relationship: “the more you shot down, the greater losses you inflicted on the enemy, and the more it contributed toward victory”?

 

N.G. No,  that direct relationship did not exist. Everything was caught up in the priority of missions. The Germans had this problem throughout the war and never did resolve it properly.

Here is an example for you. During the escort of their own bombers German fighter pilots were constantly distracted and got tangled up in secondary aerial engagements. It turns out that the Luftwaffe command, when it prioritized missions to its pilots, gave protection of their own bombers and destruction of enemy aircraft the same priority. Under these circumstances, the German fighter pilots chose to get kills. How this all came out in the end—you know.

 

So by all means, German pilots were extremely talented, handled their machines with skill and care. However one has to think how is it possible that a specific group of men can amass such amounts of air victories ? And that certainly can't happen if they fly in a risky manner. No, Luftwaffe pilots were in this case very conservative and flew "safely". In some way it resembles to me our online experiences, when we have certain individuals getting weekly 100+ victories and no deaths - they only engage when target is vulnerable, they always have support from their buddies and they strictly avoid risky situations. But question remains how can they affect the outcome of the operation ? How do they contribute to the victory in the mission ? I can see some analogy here.

 

Other aspect may be that Germans simply with the progress of the war had more targets of the opportunity, when VVS recovered and started operating in numbers that also presented more targets. Especially those slow and defenseless Il-2s. That could be an interesting study, trying to figure how many of the victories were achieved on Il-2s, how many on fighters and so on ...   

Edited by =LD=Hiromachi
  • Upvote 1

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Spot on, Hiromachi. From what I've seen Il-2s were the least of it - their losses to fighters diminished quickly as the Luftwaffe dwindled, while flak did the rest.

 

Lone fighters returning on technical failure or a careless recce pattern, bombers when the escort had parted, transport aircraft and of course one-pass attacks on fighter formations probably accounted for the most of it - if you take Hartmann as an example his victories are mostly single engines fighters but if his action reports are anything to go by these were situations when said fighters were alone and/or defenseless.

 

An interesting thing is that Pokryshkin started playing on the Luftwaffe team tactics after a while and personally targeted the flight leader since he observed that the second this pilot was shot down the rest scattered.

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Quick search,nrs can vary a bit,but in general: Il2 abschuss by TOP4
Erich Hartmann 15
Walter Nowotny 25
Gerhard Barkhorn 11
Walter Krupinski 12

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Cool, so majority were indeed fighters. It seems Heer could not really count on air cover in case of sturmoviks, they had to take the things in their own hands and hope AA will be enough. 

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As I said before, lots of different sources and memoirs around for people to make their assumptions. 

But I find it funny that allied/russian side of war is trying to desperately find a reason for german aces success from anything else than doing their duty. Normally that is personal glory hunting. 

 

Well, opinions are like a**holes, everyone has one. 

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I dont think anyone is suggesting that they did not do their duty, simply that Luftwaffe doctrine was different to other airforces at least until they were seriously on the defensive later in the war

 

This doctrine/philosphy came directly  from the top from Goering down to the Squadron commanders, this "Knights of the sky" attitude (and i don't mean that in any form of derogatory way) is so well described from so many sources i cant see any reason for dispute.

 

The organisation of the Luftwaffe as an autonomous entity under the control of Goering was quite different to other Armies in the early days he was an incredibly powerful man in the party, promoted to Reich Marshal of the Greater German Reich after the fall of France, he outranked anyone in the German military, As Head of the Luftwaffe his position was quite unlike that of any other country, his early days in WW1 as a multiple ace and as Commander of the famous Jagdgeschwader 1 and his 'high' upbringing set the scene for doctrine in the modern Luftwaffe. They were highly skilled well trained and carried out their orders as given, strategically these orders were flawed, that is all

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Edited by Dakpilot

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I made myself a little research/study of air victories of TOP5 German and Soviet aces.With distribution fighters/attack/bombers etc. Unfortunately I can't find that excel file anymore.But its easy to do for anyone.

What I found interesting was nr. of LaGG-3s in Herr Hartman's abschuss list.Vast majority.And only handful of Yak-3 and other "superior/modern" fighters.And many unidentified types.

I don't question LW aces achievements,I'm a hobby researcher and its nice to see things sorted with data's and compare them to tactics deployed by both sides.The true truth is somewhere in-between black and white perception ;)

But we are off topic by large margin. Blame on me to take part :)

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Well, discussion is interesting so we could potentially ask Bearcat to move this offtop to the separate topic and continue, I guess it wont be any problem since no harm was done and we only exchanged our views on things. 

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I dug out yesterday one of my books about Slovak Letka 13 and refreshed my data about their Kuban campaign.I noticed one funny photo of pilot in front of his Gustav, with underwear drying on its antena wire. Made me laugh, good sense of humor those guys had :)

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Thanks for the link Dakpilot, I'll try it out today :)

 

Best used with Cyberolas Kuban repaint  ;)

 

Cheers Dakpilot

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Cyberolas has done some outstanding work breathing new life into some of those eastern front maps.

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I'm flying it un-modded actually, my experience with them was low FPS and a bit of a mess so I'm sticking to default 4.13 :)

 

I gave the campaign a go, and I must say I'm very impressed. Only flew one mission so far but it was fun - a training and front familiarisation mission. Luck gave me a MiG-3U to fly this mission. I was to travel to four airfields from the coast to the larger urban areas in the continent, through valleys and bad weather. Determined to do well, I promptly grabbed my little flight notebook (I always recommend this to anyone, the experience is much more fun with one) and wrote down the take-off and landing approaches with their respective vectors, altitudes and landmarks. Everything was set for a perfect flight. Taking-off, I forgot to trim the MiG tail heavy and had it nearly prop-strike, while after correcting I started flying earlier than I had wished due to flaps being deployed. Lesson learned. First waypoint was easy, landing went smooth though bumpier than my usual and I went to the end of the runway and turned around for the next leg. My notes had the departure vectors all set, and I diligently followed a 45 degree course from Gelendzhik. A few minutes in flight I cross checked the map for good measure and to my surprise I saw that the next airfield was actually 80 degrees from Gelendzhik. No big deal of course, but I had to find where exactly I was. I found a road, took its heading and checked the map - I couldn't quite believe the results, since they suggested I was actually 10km inside German territory now, and there was supposed to be an airfield to my left if that was true, when so far I saw nothing more than a little farm with- wait, that's a runway! I high-tailed at 500km/h before being shot at, and the rest was uneventful fun :biggrin: It shows how simple it was to make major mistakes like landing in the wrong side of the fence.

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No. Battle for Berlin. 

 

Hey Klaus Mann, yeah you.  Have you seen Stalingrad, how awesome it looked!?  Just think what will it look like in Berlin, soo why hate the idea bra..?  Are you........(offended)?

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The map of Kuban could have Kerch peninsula included to depict heavy fighting on soviet bridghead over there in winter 41/late spring 42.Lots of naval operations,soviets trying to supply their troops,unloading infantry/weapons/fuel and germans trying to stop them.Place for Ju-88 and He-111 bombers (some torpedo versions deployed there later) to hunt soviet shipping .For soviets there were still primarly I-16 together with I-153,some Migs and early Yaks and LaGGs in fewer numbers to counter Fridrichs.

Roughly triangle-like area Feodosia-Krasnodar-Tuapse should do the trick for large timescale from late 41 till late 43.

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Brano, can't wait for the ground-pounders' reaction to naval flak if that does happen :biggrin:

 

EDIT: Just another anecdote from Stebas' Kuban campaign for those interested, three Yak-1Bs went out on patrol hunting for Stukas over a hilly battlefield, also occupied by a troika of Il-2s strafing with guns and rockets. Number two went and downed a Stuka while me and n.3 flew top cover. Once a pair of Emils appeared we took the fight to them while leaving n.2 with the bombers. Since we over-performed the Emils generously it was easy to climb and rain down on them as we wished, but during one of those maneuvers my wingman got lost pulling out of the cloud cover and ended up over 1km from me with an Emil on his tail. Imprudently, he tried to use the speed and slight height advantage he had and pulled up on the vertical. So there, I come out of the clouds and see the Yak going straight up slowly while the Emil, also barely holding a stall, shoots incessantly and landing a fair amount of hits from what I see. I gun the engine, close the radiators and rush to help. The Yak's nose slowly crosses the 90 degrees line - somehow still flying and entering a dive while the Emil slowly flops downwards. My astute AI wingman however was ace material. I saw him coming down shooting and initially I thought 'what the f- is he doing?' since his pursuer was clearly some 500m from where he was firing at. Then as I lower my nose I see another Emil, the pair's wingman, fumbling with its wing separating under the 20mm fire! I then arrived at the scene and he covered me while I finished off the remaining Emil, whose pilot died after attempting a crash-landing. You have to give the AI credit sometimes :biggrin:

Edited by Lucas_From_Hell

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Brano, can't wait for the ground-pounders' reaction to naval flak if that does happen :biggrin:

Some people here are crying for Med and Pacific.So they could at least get used to it in advance  :biggrin:

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That coupled with realistic torpedo modelling that causes it to break-up if launched outside of parameters and with a little bit of a random factor, I can smell the threads complaining after six Heinkels come low and slow on a convoy just to see five shot down, only three torpedoes actually working and a single one hitting anything without causing mortal damage, and then the sole surviving Heinkel gets shot down by 'OP' M4 cannon from 'totally unrealistic' and 'arcade WT flight modelling' P-39, because according to 'multiple sources from the USAAF' the 'P-39 was actually crap' and 'here it's a total ace maker, totally biased for balance, please fix now or it will ruin this franchise forever' and 'if u dont fix this fkn joke i'll tell my sqdr to never buy this again, we're going back to WT now'. That and the numerous bug reports on the P-39 stalling too easily and the 'flat spin bug' because 'I read it in the manual that if I spin the stick 4 times and say abracadabra it stops' but 'this FM is totally broke' :popcorm:

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