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IL-2 STURMOVIK : BATTLE OF KUBAN

Battle for the Kuban  

138 members have voted

  1. 1. This would make a great follow on expansion

    • Yes
      45
    • Yes however I have suggestiosn for s different plane set
      28
    • Maybe after a different theatre or war
      55
    • No
      10


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If i didnt know better id say someone is a lil scared. The idea that you would actually have the slower, inferior aircraft and you wouldnt be able to just totally dominate crap russian crates is scary right. its funny, every time someone proposes a late war western front scenario ur immediately trying to derail the topic   :biggrin:  You represent the worst group by far, the luftwhiner-schnitzel-nazis,while not too good in their piloting skills, they are always ready to defend their wonderplanes in their dirty little german accents and to complain how their beloved 109s and 190s are underperforming while all of the allied aircraft are of course totally biased.
 
Believing they represent the master race they confidently engage I-16s in a turning fight on the deck in their aryan super nazi planes and instantly come to whine on the forum after having their asses handed to them. 
 
oh and btw
 
 
 
 
too bad u lost the war, you can thank us later ;)

 

Too Bad though that I mostly fly russians M8. But thnx for taking the B8 M8!. I got like three Multiplayer airkills in me I-16 yesterday, and my Il-2 has some markings as well. 

I just really hate the Wings of Liberty Guys forcing me to use 23Vyas, which means metal seat armor and no rearward visibility. 

[Edited]

 

You need to really really think before you post.

Edited by Bearcat
Name calling

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IL-2 Sturmovik : Battle of Kuban

 

Germany

  • Bf-109G-6 with all Umrüst-Bausätze upgrades
  • Bf-109G-14  with all Umrüst-Bausätze upgrades
  • Fw-190A-5 with all Umrüst-Bausätze upgrades
  • Fw-190F-8 with all Umrüst-Bausätze upgrades
  • Bf-110G-2 with all Umrüst-Bausätze upgrades
  • Hs-123-A1
  • Me-410A-1 with all Umrüst-Bausätze upgrades
  • Hs-129B-3 - Special A/C set

 

Soviet Union

  • La-5F
  • MiG-3 Ser 34
  • Pe-8
  • Tu-2
  • Yak-7B
  • LaGG-3IT
  • Pe-3 BiS
  • IL-2 Type 3M - Special A/C set

 

 

I cannot bring myself to take away the HS 129 and any of those fine Russian planes, but Kuban campaign would not be realistic without the P-39 :D 

HS 129 Did it operate in Kuban campaign, I do not know , but I thought it was Kursk that was first

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HS 129 Did it operate in Kuban campaign, I do not know , but I thought it was Kursk that was first

 

Kuban, then Kursk. 

Edited by LukeFF

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Late 1944 plane 

The first arrived at the front in June 1944 and only 25 were produced. It was a lame duck to fly.

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Kuban, then Kursk. 

 

Thanks Luke, 

I personally like to see a clean BOM environment , with less superplanes . Then a clean Kuban scenario. But I wonder if there are players enough for all these scenarios. I have nothing against a server running all scenarios in one evening. In this time span we simply cannot have all the planes available 

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219 HS 129 were delivered by the end of 1942

From Januar to May 1942 the B-1 was produced ( total number 50 Hs 129 B-1 and 16 B-0 ) in small numbers from than on the most prudced variant B-2 was delivered.

by August 1942 100 aircraft were at the front.

Parts of Sch.G.1 ( which had 4 Staffeln with HS 129 B )  fighted at Crimea and the rest supported the main offensive drive to Stalingrad in 1942.

The HS 129 B-2 would fit in very well to what we have and to any latter eastern front battle.

 

Here is a picture from the German wartime magazine “Die Wehrmacht” showing an HS-129 in a dive west of Stalingrads tractor factory district.

http://www.fireonthevolga.com/sch-10101.jpg

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The MTO, if done correctly means carnage for the Brits, if the Germs get F-4s and G-2s, while the brits have to slug along in Spit Vs and Hurries. 

 

The late western front will attract the worst kind of people imaginable: P-51 fans. This would ruin the game and the community, so NO.

 

The  Pacific could be interesting before the introduction of the F6F and F4U, or after Ki-44, Ki-84, and the improved naval fighters came in. 

 

No Klaus_Mann... the worst type of people are guys like you.. People like you are ruining this game and these forums.

 

Cheers!

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Amen brother! :D

 

Realy though, I don't want to treat anyone like I am treated. I am a P-51 fan and I love my plane for what it is. A fast and maneuvrable airplane that can fly 8h of a mission and do variety of tasks.

 

After many years of virtual flying, I can say with 100% of certainty that the most hate towards me and other fans of USAAF equipment came from 109 guys. I liked the plane, now I don't want to touch it, because of the hate and arogance that I associate with those people.

 

I won't lie, there are P-51 fans who claim that "is da best fighta of WW2, because MURICA" But they usually don't know much about the airplane, and are ignorant, never read a single article about its performace. While all 109 guys are devoted to their one true love and are willing to mock others for finding other planes superior in any area.

 

P-51 is a capable dogfighter if flown right.

 

 

-----------------

Thefore I would rather see 1943-44 period of Western Front. With P-51B and D same P47C and D variants, some Spitfires and some 109G6-G14 and Fw190A6-8 :)

 

It's only a very small percentage of people like Klaus_Mann and other haters on this forum, etc.. They just make themselves look extremely stupid when they post their comments.

 

 

Funny reading all these posts from these pro-German guys complaining about the P-51 and the people who like flying them.. They forget that almost all of the German pilots who became Aces, racking up hundreds of air-to-air kills, did so fighting defenseless countries who had pilots flying severely outdated aircraft. It wasn't a fair match up by any means. Pretty much all your beloved German aces got their asses handed to them when more advanced countries joined the fight... The German time of enjoying easy air victories across Europe abruptly came to an end.. But, I could understand why you would want to leave that part out.

 

Klaus_Mann said: "These people are supremacists and they have grouped around quite decent fighter types and ruined them for everybody else." Pretty Ironic hearing a German dude referring to other people as, "Supremacist." You're a full on hypocrite in every aspect of the meaning. Sounds like you're really upset, maybe it's time to take a break from the video games, guy.

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The first arrived at the front in June 1944 and only 25 were produced. It was a lame duck to fly.

 

No, they weren't delivered to the front until late 1944, around the November timeframe. What you're probably thinking of is the first prototypes. That's all according to Martin Pegg's excellent book about the Hs 129.

 

Around 25 were built, yes.

Edited by LukeFF

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Definitely not defending the stuff Klaus Mann is writing. But you are not different. 

 

 

Funny reading all these posts from these pro-German guys complaining about the P-51 and the people who like flying them.. They forget that almost all of the German pilots who became Aces, racking up hundreds of air-to-air kills, did so fighting defenseless countries who had pilots flying severely outdated aircraft. It wasn't a fair match up by any means. Pretty much all your beloved German aces got their asses handed to them when more advanced countries joined the fight... The German time of enjoying easy air victories across Europe abruptly came to an end.. But, I could understand why you would want to leave that part out.

I suggest, you go into a library, and read up about the German WW2 aces. Before you embarrass yourself even more with such nonsense.

Edited by II./JG77_Manu*

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I, admittably, am a 109 guy, but I don't worship it at all. I simply think that it was a probably the best piece of war for germany, mainly for the compromise of Logistic Flexibility, Ruggedness and Performance. 

But my preferences are not bound by nation in the slightest, but I know that the Mustangs wouldn't have stood up in German Service, because the Merlins required far too high fuel ratings, neither would the P-47s because they were a nightmare to repair without heavy equipment. 

 

The Yaks and Bf109s were equally good in Logistics, but the 109s had the edge in Overall Performance. However, I absolutely adore the Yak-3 and hope it comes someday as well. 

The Spitfires were bound to high fuel grades as well and difficult to repair under field conditions, prone to wing damage on taxiing (long, heavy wings + narrow undercarriage)

For the Fw190 was impossible to seperate wings from the fuselage without a crane and it really had the performance edge for 1 year (late 42 to late 43).

 

The 109 is the Jack of all Trades, which I find interesting and makes it my all time favourite. I don't like sourcing aces and kill scores because it can't tell the full story, and frankly I don't care about Hartmanns and Pokryshkins and whatever. 

 

I guess I'm getting frustrated, frustration leads to annoyance, and annoyance leads to a Troll-ish attitude. I'm exaggerating, working the hyperbole to the limit, just to annoy the No-Nuance Hard Core Fans of any type, and the P-51 and Fw190 guys are the easiest to pick on. It's sort of my revenge for them ruining every reasonable Thread they could. 

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I'd disagree. Spit Tommies are actually amongst the most pleasant people I know, more pleasant than Messer-Krauts, like me, anywhere I met them. I really like arguing with them, and we seldomly derail into hatred and abuse.

 

The Yako- and Laggo-Iwans are on one level in pleasantness with the Messer-Krauts and it again is a very nice talk to be had (I have gained enormous respect for russian aircraft these past years)

 

The two worst groups I have experienced so far however are the Jerry-Focks and P-51 Exceptionalists especially in a Flight Sim Environment.

They suck as pilots and claim everything else is overpowered if they can't beat it it in a low and slow turnfight.

 

Generally they are convinced that their respective aircraft could outturn much lighter Spits and 109s, Outclimb and Outroll them, are faster across the board and have impregnable armor and they won't be argued with. It's almost religious in many ways.

 

I can't bear the talk of "Luhminarr Flo' Wings" and "Radial Engine Super-Shields" anymore. These people are supremacists and they have grouped around quite decent fighter types and ruined them for everybody else.

 

I seriously believe that the Star Wars prequels were made by and for P-51 guys.

Amazing that you manage to trash anyone with a differing opinion as being unbearable with the snottiest/elite-iest post I've seen in ages. Pot, meet kettle.

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I suggest, you go into a library, and read up about the German WW2 aces. Before you embarrass yourself even more with such nonsense.

He's not that wrong tbh.

 

And one also needs to look at how eager the Jaegers were with supporting their ground forces vs getting kills and saving their own asses. ;)

Edited by GrapeJam

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He's not that wrong tbh.

 

And one also needs to look at how eager the Jaegers were with supporting their ground forces vs getting kills and saving their own

asses. ;)

Tbh, you should go to the library with him ;)

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He's not that wrong tbh.

 

And one also needs to look at how eager the Jaegers were with supporting their ground forces vs getting kills and saving their own asses. ;)

Seriously? Zami said enough...

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Seriously? Zami said enough...

I'm just gonna leave this quote from the book Luftwaffe  aircraft in profile by Christer Bergstrom:

 

In terms of aerial victories, the German fighter aces of World War II are truly unequalled. The highest class of fighter pilots consists only of Luftwaffe men - Marseille, Graf, Galland, Hartmann, Nowotny, Oseau and others.

 

One of the main reasons for this is the extreme weight placed upon individual aerial victories within the Luftwaffe fighter force. This one-sided aim, derived from the romantic outlook of one man - von Richthofen - gave the German fighter force a relatively unique draft. While the pilots of the Spitfires, Mustangs and Yakovlevs attacked the enemy wherever they found him - in the air or on the ground - realizing that they fought a merciless war - the Jagdflieger of the Luftwaffe were encouraged to look upon their mission more or less as a trophy hunt in the air. Subsequently, Marseille and his comrades were engaged plucking one British fighter after another in the skies over the Northern Desert in 1941-42, while the RAF fighter squadrons smashed up Rommel's supply lines, thus hastening the Allied victory in this war theater. Together, the six most successful German fighter pilots in the Western Desert shot down more than 400 Allied aircraft; on the Allied side only one pilot - "Killer" Caldwell - succeeded in achieving more than 20 aerial victories during the whole campaign. In the narrow sight of the German fighter pilots in Libya, they were the great victors. To the German and Italian ground troops, who continuously were strafed and bombed by low-flying Curtiss and Hurricane fighters while the Messerschmitt 109s made some pirouettes above, things looked different. 

 

This is also one of the main explanations to the magnificent results produced by the German fighters on the Eastern Front. Even in 1944, when the Red Air Force had overcome its initial weakness, introducing better trained pilots, using better tactics and being equipped with excellent aircraft such as the Yak-3, Experten such as Hartmann, Batz and Kittel achieved the same amount of successes as the aces of 1941-1942 had done.

 

The German fighter pilots developed such a snobbish attitude towards ground-attacks, that when they during the autumn of 1940 for the first time were forced to undertake such missions, they regarded it as an unjust punishment - which, in fact, was also the intention of Hermann Göring, who had given the order! - that severely hampered their morale. One of the most faithful disciples of Manfred von Richthofen, Adolf Galland, never overcame the bitterness this order created, which he proved many times after the war.

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I'm just gonna leave this quote from the book Luftwaffe  aircraft in profile by Christer Bergstrom:

and in the next paragraph you disproved your own claim  :lol: . Good man!

btw the whole rest of your quote is just one biased opinion. He doesn't have any idea about how it was in reality.In addition the German fighter pilots (unlike the Japanese for example) have been told to survive, that's the most important. Otherwise the German fighter force would have been diminished way sooner. The same stuff was said about the Mustang pilots, leaving their B17 escort duties. Or the VVS pilots fleeing away from fights, leaving their IL2s completely unprotected..no nation was any different in that respect - after all they all were 18-25 year old kids, who just wanted to survive

Edited by II./JG77_Manu*
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and in the next paragraph you disproved your own claim  :lol: . Good man!

btw the whole rest of your quote is just one biased opinion. He doesn't have any idea about how it was in reality.In addition the German fighter pilots (unlike the Japanese for example) have been told to survive, that's the most important. Otherwise the German fighter force would have been diminished way sooner. The same stuff was said about the Mustang pilots, leaving their B17 escort duties. Or the VVS pilots fleeing away from fights, leaving their IL2s completely unprotected..no nation was any different in that respect - after all they all were 18-25 year old kids, who just wanted to survive

 

:lol:

 

The 8th airforce didn't leave their B17s completely undefended, they only a devoted a larger number to do forward fighter sweeps, and this strategy was proven to be far more effective than purely close escort.

 

And no, VVS fighter pilots were forbidden to pursuit the enemies and leave their IL2 undefended, the ones who ran away were shot for cowardice.

 

 

And sure, ensuring the current crop of pilot survival, while leaving your capability to train new pilots destroyed. ;)

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:lol:

 

The 8th airforce didn't leave their B17s completely undefended, they only a devoted a larger number to do forward fighter sweeps, and this strategy was proven to be far more effective than purely close escort.

 

And no, VVS fighter pilots were forbidden to pursuit the enemies and leave their IL2 undefended, the ones who ran away were shot for cowardice.

 

 

And sure, ensuring the current crop of pilot survival, while leaving your capability to train new pilots destroyed. ;)

 

... and during the BoB when the Lw fighters were ordered to do close escort, they didn't do as well as they did as in their Free Hunts. They also complained about doing the close escort.

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I've always found it's funny that many German pilots in BOS who cruise at 5km and do nothing to help their ground pounders complain when they lose the map.

  • Upvote 1

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Luftwaffe had lots of unit types that were used for different tasks. Fighters flew to shoot down bombers/ground pounders and win air-superiority over the battlefield (that last was hard with 1:30h of fuel time, so not realy effective).

 

JABO and Dive Bombers attacked ground forces and their supply lines.

 

Bombers destroyed infrastrurcture.

 

You cannot demand from a fighter to do those tasks as well. There will be no one to protect the ground pounders then. And everyone will get killed. Only if there is complete air superiority like 1944/45 USAAF had, fighters started to go on mssions to attack ground forces, because there were enough fighters to be the top cover. Luftwaffe didn't have that ability, because they had relatively not many fighters compared to how many ground pounders they had. Even at the end they were building bombers and wanting Me262 to be a bomber.

 

It is not that Fighters did nothing. They did their job, that is killing other planes, primarly bombers and ground pounders. But when escort was spotted, you have to dispach of the escort first. So those that  are realy good went after enemy escort, because their skill could disrupt the enemy and those that were average/poor went for ground pounders. And because it was mostly aces that got the kills, for every air force (I remember USAAF estimating that 3% of aces is responsible for 50% of air kills of the UAAF in Europe, please correct me if those numbers are wrong).

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:lol:

 

The 8th airforce didn't leave their B17s completely undefended, they only a devoted a larger number to do forward fighter sweeps, and this strategy was proven to be far more effective than purely close escort.

 

And no, VVS fighter pilots were forbidden to pursuit the enemies and leave their IL2 undefended, the ones who ran away were shot for cowardice.

 

 

And sure, ensuring the current crop of pilot survival, while leaving your capability to train new pilots destroyed. ;)

worked very well for the 8th airforce. Only loosing 10.000 Viermots, resulting in roughly 90.000 killed aircrew. Ooops..that's more then Germany lost in the entire war, at all fronts combined.

Of course they have been forbidden to do that, but it still happened a lot, and most cases probably undetected. German pilots were summoned to court martial as well, when not fulfilling their escort duties "properly". Like already said, it happened on all sides of the war, that fighter pilots ran away of "cowardness". Only country where that barely happened was Japan, they rather "stayed in the fight" till the end mostly...everyone knows, how that ended. 

Pretty easy to train new pilots, when the fuel is needed on the frontline..oh wait. 

Just stop it, it's getting silly

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The only silly thing here is trying to say that the Luftwaffe did not have a generally different philosophy/doctrine when it came to their fighter pilots, compared to other Airforces, many history books and memoirs will testify to that 

 

especially in a thread about Kuban... ;)

 

Cheers Dakpilot

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The only silly thing here is trying to say that the Luftwaffe did not have a generally different philosophy/doctrine when it came to their fighter pilots, compared to other Airforces, many history books and memoirs will testify to that 

 

especially in a thread about Kuban... ;)

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Only silly thing is that allies try to desperately find reason for german aces high scoring from something else than doing their duty. And yes, I think we all have read our share of books and memoirs which will testify almost any angle if necessary. Hartmann flew over 1400 combat missions and apparently was a pretty good shot. That was the reason for his success. I think he tried to complete succesfully missions like every other pilot and not just personal glory hunting like many seems to believe.

Edited by Zami
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Pretty easy to train new pilots, when the fuel is needed on the frontline..oh wait. 

Just stop it, it's getting silly

 

How do you think the the Germans had fuel shortage problem, oh I don't know, maybe if German fighters had actually protect German ground force so they could actually keep ground and defend German oil field, German oil refineries and storages weren't bombed to heck while German fighters were waiting the for the bombers to turn back unescorted by P47s, maybe the Germans wouldn't have such severe oil shortage problem ;)

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worked very well for the 8th airforce. Only loosing 10.000 Viermots, resulting in roughly 90.000 killed aircrew.

 

Must be listening to Geobels, you be.

 

ETO heavy bomber losses

 

total - 5445

a/c - 2452

AA - 2439

other - 657

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Definitely not defending the stuff Klaus Mann is writing. But you are not different. 

 

 

I suggest, you go into a library, and read up about the German WW2 aces. Before you embarrass yourself even more with such nonsense.

 Gunther Rall even said in his Memoir, German pilots enjoyed easy air victories against poorly armed and trained pilots up until more modernized and powerful country's joined the war. Those massive air victories were not racked up against the Brits, Americans, etc, etc.  They were racked up against countries flying obsolete / junk aircraft flown on pretty much suicide missions by those pilots. It's all well documented. I'm going to take Rall's word on it, sorry.

 

That being said, The Luftwaffe Pilots were bad ass and had the mentality and personality to go with all that.. But don't get your information twisted because your biased.. As an American, I can say we didn't have the best aircraft, or pilots.. But we developed air tactics that worked to exploit the shortcomings of said aircraft, (Like the under powered Mustangs, etc) and it saved a lot of pilots...

 

This whole, "My daddy can beat up your daddy" thing will never end.... History is history and history speaks for itself.

I, admittably, am a 109 guy, but I don't worship it at all. I simply think that it was a probably the best piece of war for germany, mainly for the compromise of Logistic Flexibility, Ruggedness and Performance. 

But my preferences are not bound by nation in the slightest, but I know that the Mustangs wouldn't have stood up in German Service, because the Merlins required far too high fuel ratings, neither would the P-47s because they were a nightmare to repair without heavy equipment. 

 

The Yaks and Bf109s were equally good in Logistics, but the 109s had the edge in Overall Performance. However, I absolutely adore the Yak-3 and hope it comes someday as well. 

The Spitfires were bound to high fuel grades as well and difficult to repair under field conditions, prone to wing damage on taxiing (long, heavy wings + narrow undercarriage)

For the Fw190 was impossible to seperate wings from the fuselage without a crane and it really had the performance edge for 1 year (late 42 to late 43).

 

The 109 is the Jack of all Trades, which I find interesting and makes it my all time favourite. I don't like sourcing aces and kill scores because it can't tell the full story, and frankly I don't care about Hartmanns and Pokryshkins and whatever. 

 

I guess I'm getting frustrated, frustration leads to annoyance, and annoyance leads to a Troll-ish attitude. I'm exaggerating, working the hyperbole to the limit, just to annoy the No-Nuance Hard Core Fans of any type, and the P-51 and Fw190 guys are the easiest to pick on. It's sort of my revenge for them ruining every reasonable Thread they could. 

 

Understandable.. Kind of see what you mean, especially with people side stepping the history books because they, "Know better" ..

Edited by 4./JG53_Reagan505

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Little blurb on Doolittle when he was running the 8th AAF and changed the war...again:

 

"""Doolittle's major influence on the European air war occurred early in the year when he changed the policy requiring escorting fighters to remain with the bombers at all times. With his permission, initially performed with P-38s and P-47s, as both previous types were being steadily replaced with the long-ranged P-51s as the spring of 1944 wore on, American fighter pilots on bomber defense missions would primarily be flying far ahead of the bombers' combat box formations in air supremacy mode, literally "clearing the skies" of any Luftwaffe fighter opposition heading towards the target. This strategy fatally disabled the twin-engined Zerstörergeschwader heavy fighter wings and their replacement, single-engined Sturmgruppen of heavily armed Fw 190As, clearing each force of bomber destroyers in their turn from Germany's skies throughout most of 1944. As part of this game-changing strategy, especially after the bombers had hit their targets, the USAAF's fighters were then free to strafe German airfields and transport while returning to base, contributing significantly to the achievement of air superiority by Allied air forces over Europe.​"""

Edited by 4./JG53_Reagan505

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 That being said, The Luftwaffe Pilots were bad ass and had the mentality and personality to go with all that.. But don't get your information twisted because your biased.. As an American, I can say we didn't have the best aircraft, or pilots.. But we developed air tactics that worked to exploit the shortcomings of said aircraft, (Like the under powered Mustangs, etc) and it saved a lot of pilots...

Allied pilots and planes were top quality, no doubt about that. Their aces were just as bad ass as germans aces. I have a great respect for all allied air forces in WW2. But it`s not so simple compare. Circumstances were so different between parties. In the end it was a war of attrition, matter of resources in every aspect. Allied could afford losses and replace them. Germans could not. Americans did make a decisive difference in allied war effort IMO.

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Allied pilots and planes were top quality, no doubt about that. Their aces were just as bad ass as germans aces. I have a great respect for all allied air forces in WW2. But it`s not so simple compare. Circumstances were so different between parties. In the end it was a war of attrition, matter of resources in every aspect. Allied could afford losses and replace them. Germans could not. Americans did make a decisive difference in allied war effort IMO.

 

Agree 100%

 

Also, we recycled our pilots, sent them home.. a luxury the Germans, Russians, Japs, etc didn't have... A lot of the German Aces were killed because they were burnt out / exhausted. Pretty amazing generation of people, on all sides of the war.. I served 8 years in the Army, with 3 combat deployments. It was easy compared to what those guys went through. Going years with the only communication with family via letters, maybe a phone call if they were lucky. Lots of respect for all sides.

Edited by 4./JG53_Reagan505

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Agree 100%

 

Also, we recycled our pilots, sent them home.. a luxury the Germans, Russians, Japs, etc didn't have... A lot of the German Aces were killed because they were burnt out / exhausted. Pretty amazing generation of people, on all sides of the war.. I served 8 years in the Army, with 3 combat deployments. It was easy compared to what those guys went through. Going years with the only communication with family via letters, maybe a phone call if they were lucky. Lots of respect for all sides.

You nailed it. 

 

Respect for all sides equally.

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 Gunther Rall even said in his Memoir, German pilots enjoyed easy air victories against poorly armed and trained pilots up until more modernized and powerful country's joined the war. Those massive air victories were not racked up against the Brits, Americans, etc, etc.  They were racked up against countries flying obsolete / junk aircraft flown on pretty much suicide missions by those pilots. It's all well documented. I'm going to take Rall's word on it, sorry.

 

Erich Hartmann: 352 kills, 351 between 1943 and 1945 against Soviet Union/USA

Gerhard Barkhorn: 301 kills, 199 between 1943 and 1945 against Soviet Union

Günther Rall: 275 kills, ~150 of them between 1943 and 1945, against Soviet Union/USA

Otto Kittel: 267 kills, 242 between 1943 and 1945 against Soviet Union

Walter Nowotny: 258 kills, 199 between 1943 and 1944 against Soviet Union/USA

Wilhelm Batz: 237 kills, all of them between 1943 and 1945 against Soviet Union

Hermann Graf: 212 kills, 170 of them between 1942 and 1944 against Soviet Union/USA

Heinrich Ehrler: 208 kills, 163 of them between 1943 and 1945, against Soviet Union, USA, and England 

Helmut Lipfert: 203 kills, all of them between 1943 and 1945 against Soviet Union/USA

 

Those are the most successful pilots of WW2..you can google the rest if you want, but the picture stays the same.

Your statement is so blatantly wrong, that it's almost funny. It isn't only false, in fact it was completely the other way round. The German aces scored most of their kills in the late war, against aircraft pretty much on par. 

You wanna call Soviet Union a "minor nation", and La7, Yak9M, La5FN, Yak 3 obsolete, junk aircraft? 

 

Well done mate, well done.....

Edited by II./JG77_Manu*
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Erich Hartmann: 352 kills, 351 between 1943 and 1945 against Soviet Union/USA

Gerhard Barkhorn: 301 kills, 199 between 1943 and 1945 against Soviet Union

Günther Rall: 275 kills, ~150 of them between 1943 and 1945, against Soviet Union/USA

Otto Kittel: 267 kills, 242 between 1943 and 1945 against Soviet Union

Walter Nowotny: 258 kills, 199 between 1943 and 1944 against Soviet Union/USA

Wilhelm Batz: 237 kills, all of them between 1943 and 1945 against Soviet Union

Hermann Graf: 212 kills, 170 of them between 1942 and 1944 against Soviet Union/USA

Heinrich Ehrler: 208 kills, 163 of them between 1943 and 1945, against Soviet Union, USA, and England 

Helmut Lipfert: 203 kills, all of them between 1943 and 1945 against Soviet Union/USA

 

Those are the most successful pilots of WW2..you can google the rest if you want, but the picture stays the same.

Your statement is so blatantly wrong, that it's almost funny. It isn't only false, in fact it was completely the other way round. The German aces scored most of their kills in the late war, against aircraft pretty much on par. 

You wanna call Soviet Union a "minor nation", and La7, Yak9M, La5FN, Yak 3 obsolete, junk aircraft? 

 

Well done mate, well done.....

 

When the Germans invaded Russia, they were flying obsolete aircraft.. They were slaughtered, (Read about that below). The Russian Air Force was almost completely destroyed, but made it through. Later in the war the Russians rebuilt and designed some good aircraft. A lot of the early versions of the Lagg, IL, Mig, Yak were junk and were not on the same level as the 109 or 190, etc, etc.. Most of these German Aces raked up their kills early on the war as the marched through Europe, (Including France) and Russia / Soviet Union, meeting obsolete aircraft and poorly trained pilots. Those are historical facts. The Soviets were lucky, the weather helped them repel the Germans and turn the table in their favor. And no, the Luftwaffe didn't do well against the allies in the late war.. in fact, as history proves.. The Luftwaffe was damn near considered and ineffective fighting force by January 1st, 1945  and so on.. after the 8th AAF were allowed to leave the bombers and push ahead, attacking air and ground targets.. That's fact, read about it... or don't.. it's just you looking like a fool because you're own recollection of history is wrong. Read about it.. It's all there and easy to find.

 

Some info on the Luftwaffe for your reading pleasure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luftwaffe

 

LA-7: Like .. Late war acft: Russia finally got their shit together after the harsh winters forced German to retreat.. This applys to the rest of these late war acft

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavochkin_La-7

 

Yak-9M: This variant was a late war acft - Read about it

 

 

The FN was LA-5FN​: The FN was a later war variant .. The Russians still looking for a decent aircraft due to the early war Yaks, IL's and Laggs being under powered, etc, etc..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavochkin_La-5

 

You're wrong Manu, sorry bud... You can keep telling yourself all of that, but it's not going to make things true. Here is a short blurb about early Russian / German air combat of WWII, (Sorry dude, Ill take my info from the experts and people who wrote about their experiences flying for the Luftwaffe.. Like Gunther Rall... I'll attach the link.. Lots of other info out there, don't be biased):

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Air_Forces#Early_combat

 

 

 

""""""At the outbreak of World War II, the Soviet military was not yet at a level of readiness suitable for winning a war: Joseph Stalin had said in 1931 Soviet industry was "50 to 100 years behind"[27] the Western powers. By the end of the war, Soviet annual aircraft production had risen sharply, reaching 40,241 in 1944. Some 157,261 machines were produced during the Great Patriotic War, 125,655 being of combat types.[28]

220px-Red_star.svg.png
 
Original star roundel in World War II

The main reason for the large aircraft losses in the initial period of war with Germany was not the lack of modern tactics, but the lack of experienced pilots and ground support crews, the destruction of many aircraft on the runways due to command failure to disperse them, and the rapid advance of Heer troops, forcing the Soviet pilots on the defensive during Operation Barbarossa, while being confronted with more modern German designs.[29] In the first few days of the invasion of the Soviet Union, the Luftwaffe destroyed some 2,000 Soviet aircraft, most on the ground, at a loss of only 35 (of which 15 were non-combat-related).[30]

The principal VVS aircraft during World War II were the Ilyushin Il-2 Shturmovik armored ground attack monoplane and the series of AS Yakovlev-designed single-engined fighters, beginning with the Yak-1 and its successors.[29] The Il-2 became (at 36,183 built) the most produced military aircraft of all time, with the four main versions (the Yak-1, −3, −7 and −9) of Yak fighters being slightly more numerous, at a total of 36,716 among them, the two main types together accounting for about half the strength of the VVS for most of the Great Patriotic War. The Yak-1 was a modern 1940 design and had room for development, unlike the mature 1935-origin Messerschmitt Bf 109. The Yak-9 brought the VVS to parity with the Luftwaffe and eventually allowed it to gain the upper hand, until in 1944, many Luftwaffe pilots deliberately avoided combat with the last and best variant, the out-of-sequence numbered Yak-3. The other main VVS types were Lavochkin fighters (mainly the La-5), the Petlyakov Pe-2 twin engined attack-bombers, and a basic but functional and versatile medium bomber, the Ilyushin Il-4.

The 31st Bomber Aviation Regiment, equipped with Pe-2s and commanded by Colonel Fyodor Ivanovich Dobysh, was one of the first Guards bomber units in the Air Forces – the 4th Guards Bomber Aviation Regiment (ru:4-й гвардейский пикирующий бомбардировочный авиационный полк).[31] The title was conferred on the regiment for its actions on the Leningrad Front in November–December 1941 during defensive operations and the Soviet counterattack near Tikhvin.

Women[edit]

Alone among World War II combatants, the Soviet Air Force initiated a program to bring women with existing flying training into combat air groups. Marina Raskova, one of very few women in the VVS prior to the war, used her influence with Stalin to form three all-female air regiments: the 586th Fighter Aviation Regiment, the 587th Bomber Aviation Regiment, and the 588th Night Bomber Aviation Regiment (a.k.a. the Night Witches.) Women flew aircraft so heavy that sometimes two of them were required to haul back on the joystick on takeoff. Another pilot, Olga Yemshokaya, flying at ten thousand feet, discovered a mouse, put there by mischievous male colleagues, in her cockpit. Being more worried by the rodent than the German fighter threat, she hunted for, eventually caught and ejected it.[32]

Due to their achievements in battle, the latter two air force units were honored by being renamed Guards units. Beyond the three official regiments, individual Soviet women sometimes served alongside airmen in otherwise all-male groups.[33] Women pilots, navigators, gunners, mechanics, armament specialists and other female ground personnel made up more than 3,000 fighting members of the VVS. Women pilots flew 24,000 sorties. From this effort came the world's only two female fighter aces: Lydia Litvyak and Katya Budanova.""""""

Edited by 4./JG53_Reagan505

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Manu,

 

Go fly some IL-2 or something.. It doesn't matter if you agree with me or other people.. From the memoirs I've read written by German pilots, they clearly document they racked up most of their kills fighting the Russians who never stood a chance.. I really don't care if you agree or disagree... Like my earlier post says, I'll take my info from the people who fought and flew in WWII.... along with historians.. Not some dude who flys flight sims for entertainment. :bye:

Edited by 4./JG53_Reagan505

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Reagan, so you think that i made the numbers up, or what?

Anyway, i am sick of arguing for today. Believe what you want, it's your mind after all.

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Also, I'm not saying these German Aces and pilots werent good. Just pointing out it's easy for anybody to look at their high kill numbers and forget about a large majority of their opposition.
All good Manu.. It's ok for people not agree on stuff.. Whatever helps you sleep at night. It is what it is dude.. Carry on

Edited by II./JG53_Reagan505

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Let's keep it civil or take it to PM, gents.

 

Trying to bring this back on topic, the Kuban scenario is interesting because the Soviet opposition that faced Army Group South ever since Barbarossa had some top of the line units and a history of being a tough nut to crack.

 

For example, during the opening days of Operation Barbarossa most regiments in Moldova had actually dispersed their aircraft properly in antecipation for an attack (this order was given by Stavka on the 21st of June, but work was only halfway done when the attack started), and in the guesswork that came before the invasion the Soviet Union's top military brass wrongly predicted the thick of the enemy force would come through the South instead of North. Incidentally, most of Hartmann's career was spent fighting in the same theatre as these units which included the famous 216 IAD (later 216 SAD and finally 9 GIAD) which comprised 16, 100, 101 and 104 GIAP among others.

 

The reason the air battles there were so fierce is that both sides were throwing their very best into the fire in a battle for resources that neither could afford to forfeit.

 

Here are some pics from the theatre for those interested:

 

From "Red Star" magazine, June 1943 - Guards Jr. Lieutenant Bazanov (9 victories) and Guards Sr. Lieutenant Mudrov (11) in front of an La-5, likely early model

 

mudrov2.jpg

 

Soviet troops defending a mountainside:

 

large_fb46c434cc.jpg

 

Some more geography, this time German troops on a mountain in the North Caucasus:

 

%D0%9D%D0%B5%D0%BC%D0%B5%D1%86%D0%BA%D0%

 

Major Semenishin, one of the squadron commanders for 298 IAP, 1943

 

semensh0.jpg

 

Soviet glass-nosed A-20s, April 1943:

 

pic_99.jpg

 

One of 57 GIAP's Spitfire Mk. Vb, 1943

 

photo_13_1295092349.jpg

 

For those familiar with В бой идут одни старики" (Only Old Men Are Going To Battle, available in English on Youtube), here is the 'real thing' - Shturmovik pilot Emilianenko with the guitar in front of his Il-2, Kuban, 1943. Emilianenko has published a book about his time flying Il-2s over Kuban, as has Anna Yegorova.

 

32847_original.jpg

 

A-20 crews planning their flight, 1943

 

uicb6dicwencoww4ss8g4kk48gcejcuplo1l0oo0

 

AT-rifle ambush, between 1942 and 1943

 

fMu1OpYqT0A.jpg

 

16 GIAP aces Andrei Trud and Vadim Fadeev (lovingly known as 'Beard' in the regiment, for obvious reasons)

 

Fadeev.jpg

Edited by Lucas_From_Hell

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