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Battle of Berlin

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I prefer variety over variants. Im more excited about new fighters or bombers than a new 109 variant. I think we will have plenty with the F2.

 

I wonder if it would be cheaper to produce a Mediterranean expansion since most axis planes are there. Would a $30 BoMed appeal to anyone?

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I prefer variety over variants. Im more excited about new fighters or bombers than a new 109 variant. I think we will have plenty with the F2.

 

I wonder if it would be cheaper to produce a Mediterranean expansion since most axis planes are there. Would a $30 BoMed appeal to anyone?

Yes but I think you can get to 10 mostly new AC with the Med. A couple of Italian jobs, a couple of biplanes and a bunch of Western Allied AC. You would have to include the German AC as well to make it stand alone but you could easily have 10 new AC plus maps.

 

And Feathered, some of the new DED maps with the tanks, "danger close" have actually made my heart pound for the first time in months. It is an act of desperation to bomb, land, and get going fast enough to make a difference and prevent your airfield from being captured. So much so that I have come down from the heavens/BNZ land and rarely participate in A2A on those maps. Good fun there.

Edited by [LBS]HerrMurf

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To be honest, I've been at this long enough now that another map and another bunch of planes really isn't going to move anything forward for me.  It's just the same old gameplay with slightly different pieces.

What I most want is the experience of being there.  A game that works hard to capture the mood of the times gives you a real sense of being a part of those events.  The Battle of France, with an emphasis on the chaos, the paranoia, disorganisation, apathy and wasted heroism.  The Battle of Britain with the uncertainty, overwhelming odds, hectic squadron life and international cast.  The uncompromising pressure from Command during the Battle of Stalingrad, or the hopeless shambles in defence of the Far East.  I want to feel something of what it was to be young and at war and embedded in those times.  Surely I can't be alone in this?

I be with you kimo sabe.

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How could you possibly ever get "the experience of being there", or anything like it for that matter? It's simply not possible.  And why would you want to anyway?

 

Maybe, just maybe, if before you next fire up the 'puter, you don't eat for a few days, are informed by your doctor that you're terminally ill and won't see out the rest of the year, before also being told that your best friend had just died in a car crash.   Then yeah, that might be a start.

 

It's like those people (who, as it happens, have never been shot at in their lives) who play the game and then announce that they'd likely do far better at the air fighting business than the guys who were actually there, because they have so much more experience .   Sheesh, talk about being divorced from reality.

 

congratulations...you win the most useless post in this thread award...lol  :good:

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I think I have to disagree with some of the sentiments here.  As far as I know, the past decade+ in this genre has been Eastern Front and Battle of Britain.  Sure IL2 1946 kind of has everything, but it's not an in-depth representation of the middle/late Western Front and there is a lot more that can be done than Pacific Fighters pulled off in the Far East.

 

I personally have to pull for a 1943 Italy/France, or somewhere in the Pacific.  It's been said here that 109Gs, B-17s and all that are played out, but when was the last time the 4 engine bombers were really represented?  Have the P-38 or P-47 been done in the modern sim environment?  I mean we have made good gains in Soviet & German stuff and British players have some options as well.  It'd be nice for the US to get in on the action so to speak.

 

Also, the Pacific being "bland" makes no sense to me.  Carrier wars, Island combat, torpedo bombers, dive bombers, level bombers, very different and contrasting fighter aircraft between Air Forces and Navies...I'm not sure how that wouldn't be compelling enough.

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I am with Feathered in this, if the atmosphere is right , it really does not matter what and where you fly. Everyone yell halleluja every time a new plane come out, after a couple of days it is the same. I prefer COD  , most people there fly the sim as if it was the real thing. Not so much in this game. 

There has to be a story , a purpose some depth in the time spent in a sim. Every time something new comes along , soon after a topic like this coming. What we gonna get next? 

Addictive yes , but very short sighted

Edited by LuseKofte

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congratulations...you win the most useless post in this thread award...lol  :good:

 

 

Thanks for that and yeah, you're probably right.  Trying to get through to fantasists is probably a waste of time.

 

And while your little post probably isn't the sort I'd make, if it helps with your wounded ego I'm happy to play along.  When the hurt feelings eventually fade (if they ever do), at least you'll now know the difference between Bomber Commands "assault on Germany" and the 'Battle of Berlin'.  Hahaha...OMG!  Anyway, Merry Xmas Little One. ;)

Edited by Wulf

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Wulf,

 

you might want to listen to what the Elf has to say.  id bet money he knows what hes talking about, and has real world experience to back it up with, too.

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To be honest, I've been at this long enough now that another map and another bunch of planes really isn't going to move anything forward for me.  It's just the same old gameplay with slightly different pieces.

What I most want is the experience of being there.  A game that works hard to capture the mood of the times gives you a real sense of being a part of those events.  The Battle of France, with an emphasis on the chaos, the paranoia, disorganisation, apathy and wasted heroism.  The Battle of Britain with the uncertainty, overwhelming odds, hectic squadron life and international cast.  The uncompromising pressure from Command during the Battle of Stalingrad, or the hopeless shambles in defence of the Far East.  I want to feel something of what it was to be young and at war and embedded in those times.  Surely I can't be alone in this?

 

This guy gets it.

 

We have the engine, now make the GAME.

 

This is the primary reason I don't play much of any sims any more anymore. Once I get to the point where; yes, I can take off, land and shoot things with a modicum of modest success there's nothing left for me to do.

 

I could just keep on taking off, landing and shooting but it's boring and repetitive. It doesn't mean anything unless you're wanting to participate in some kind of eSport type rivalry and spend hours each day online to get to the top of a stats page. That can be a lot of fun but I've been there and done that (not reached the top of course but participated whole heartedly at least). No effort has been put into the gameplay element of Flight simulation since the early 2000's. B-17 Mighty 8th by Microprose opened the possibility of managing a crew or a squadron but didn't flesh it out enough and since then no real innovation has been made in making a simulation into an enjoyable and plausible game. The gameplay is either what seems to be an afterthought despite the best efforts of all involved or it is completely absent in the hope that a third party will fill the vacuum.

 

Now, I'm going to be brutally honest, I find 90% of what I do in these games to be utterly tedious because that is what 90% of flying is, just sitting there keeping the thing going in the same direction without breaking anything. It's not exciting, demanding or particularly fun until you have something more to do. If I was to start as a trainee, to have to pass a course to be posted to a squadron and to be evaluated as a fighter or bomber pilot based on RL training and then thrown into squadron life as a rookie then that would build atmosphere. Knowing my unit, hearing what they say about the war and tactics and paying attention to who I am flying with and what my role is. Having to understand the systems of my aircraft and ensure that they are operational and to be aware, in the broader sense, of what is happening around me as though my life depended on it would be a thrill. 

 

Then I would progress to having the responsibility of a wingman, a flight, a squadron of pilots, an not just target drones. Having to ensure that pilots are monitored for morale, fatigue, that they have the equipment they need and that their aircraft are serviced. Receiving mission specific orders from HQ and wider strategic edicts, planning missions, getting evaluated, suffering attrition and inflicting it while trying to keep my guys alive to see the end of the war would be amazing but none of these things have ever been approached.

Edited by JimmyBlonde
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I wouldn't mind seeing more varied Eastern Front scenarios, partly because I know less about it than I do about the Pacific (where my father served) or even the
Western European air war. I think the Crimea and perhaps even Northern coastal areas might offer more variety of landscape than what we have. The fun thing about the Eastern Front is that it was largely a tactical air conflict as opposed to a strategic one (such as the high altitude long range bombing campaign in the West). This means more short range, lower altitude fights. Flying a long range escort mission in a Mustang sounds like fun until you consider how much time was spent just getting there and back.

 

I sure would like to see a P-39 in this game though- it actually make a little more sense than the P-40. The P-40 was used quite a bit by the Soviets, but no where near as much as the P-39 and P-400. In fact, most of the Aircobras built were flown by the Soviets. They just loved them.

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Wulf,

 

you might want to listen to what the Elf has to say.  id bet money he knows what hes talking about, and has real world experience to back it up with, too.

 

 

Oh.. sheesh...really; wow dude, I didn't know.  So he flew combat missions in WW 2?  That's amazing.  Well then, I guess if anyone would know he would, wouldn't he, being as how he was there and all. 

 

Unlike some, I have no interest, at all, in pretending to be a fighter jock and trying to re-live 'the experience'.  Listening to grown men (old men in most cases) on TS playing out their childhood fantasies, from the comfort of the man-cave, leaves me as cold as a witch's tit.   And 'the experience' these people appear to crave would be as phony and unreal as its possible to be.  I just like the aircraft.  I like the idea of virtually flying and fighting in something that is as close as the limitations of computer technology allow.  But that's where it ends for me.  Anything beyond that just makes me cringe.

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Thanks for that and yeah, you're probably right.  Trying to get through to fantasists is probably a waste of time.

 

And while your little post probably isn't the sort I'd make, if it helps with your wounded ego I'm happy to play along.  When the hurt feelings eventually fade (if they ever do), at least you'll now know the difference between Bomber Commands "assault on Germany" and the 'Battle of Berlin'.  Hahaha...OMG!  Anyway, Merry Xmas Little One. ;)

 

 

I can assure you my ego is fully intact and quite healthy, and there isn't much you could ever do to change that I'm sure. 

This guy gets it.

 

We have the engine, now make the GAME.

 

This is the primary reason I don't play much of any sims any more anymore. Once I get to the point where; yes, I can take off, land and shoot things with a modicum of modest success there's nothing left for me to do.

 

I could just keep on taking off, landing and shooting but it's boring and repetitive. It doesn't mean anything unless you're wanting to participate in some kind of eSport type rivalry and spend hours each day online to get to the top of a stats page. That can be a lot of fun but I've been there and done that (not reached the top of course but participated whole heartedly at least). No effort has been put into the gameplay element of Flight simulation since the early 2000's. B-17 Mighty 8th by Microprose opened the possibility of managing a crew or a squadron but didn't flesh it out enough and since then no real innovation has been made in making a simulation into an enjoyable and plausible game. The gameplay is either what seems to be an afterthought despite the best efforts of all involved or it is completely absent in the hope that a third party will fill the vacuum.

 

Now, I'm going to be brutally honest, I find 90% of what I do in these games to be utterly tedious because that is what 90% of flying is, just sitting there keeping the thing going in the same direction without breaking anything. It's not exciting, demanding or particularly fun until you have something more to do. If I was to start as a trainee, to have to pass a course to be posted to a squadron and to be evaluated as a fighter or bomber pilot based on RL training and then thrown into squadron life as a rookie then that would build atmosphere. Knowing my unit, hearing what they say about the war and tactics and paying attention to who I am flying with and what my role is. Having to understand the systems of my aircraft and ensure that they are operational and to be aware, in the broader sense, of what is happening around me as though my life depended on it would be a thrill. 

 

Then I would progress to having the responsibility of a wingman, a flight, a squadron of pilots, an not just target drones. Having to ensure that pilots are monitored for morale, fatigue, that they have the equipment they need and that their aircraft are serviced. Receiving mission specific orders from HQ and wider strategic edicts, planning missions, getting evaluated, suffering attrition and inflicting it while trying to keep my guys alive to see the end of the war would be amazing but none of these things have ever been approached.

 

 

no, no, no WULF GETS IT!   Can't you see from his posts???  lol

Oh.. sheesh...really; wow dude, I didn't know.  So he flew combat missions in WW 2?  That's amazing.  Well then, I guess if anyone would know he would, wouldn't he, being as how he was there and all. 

 

Unlike some, I have no interest, at all, in pretending to be a fighter jock and trying to re-live 'the experience'.  Listening to grown men (old men in most cases) on TS playing out their childhood fantasies, from the comfort of the man-cave, leaves me as cold as a witch's tit.   And 'the experience' these people appear to crave would be as phony and unreal as its possible to be.  I just like the aircraft.  I like the idea of virtually flying and fighting in something that is as close as the limitations of computer technology allow.  But that's where it ends for me.  Anything beyond that just makes me cringe.

 

 

To be sure there are some pretenders out there Wulf.  You have that right.  I never did fly combat in WWII so you got me there.  Jeez, now that you mention it, I'm not really even sure what I'm doing here...  well there goes my ego.   :(

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I have no interest, at all, in pretending to be a fighter jock and trying to re-live 'the experience'.  

 

Then what are you doing here? 

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IIRC version 1.106 introduced the ability to start the game running a specific mission, meaning it's now possible to start building a story-driven game around the game "engine". Maybe something the more creative members of the community could look into.
 

41. New feature: ability to automatically login and load a certain mission or replay. Use config file <game_folder>\data\autoplay.cfg.

 

Edited by coconut

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Then what are you doing here? 

 

 

Gee Jim I dunno.  I was walking past, saw the sign, assumed it was a gay bar and just came on in.  How about you big boy? 

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Eh? Why would the devs have to sell aircraft twice? One of the advantages of a med scenario is that the correct LW aircraft already mostly exist. They'd need to create the map and the appropriate allied aircraft.

And people wanting to play med in axis planes would have to buy BOS BOM for planes.... Then med for the map, even if they do not want eastern front.

 

And if they make a game with the axis planes, people already having BOS would pay twice for the same aircraft...

 

Like I said :

 

Worst marketing idea ever.

Edited by =LAL=Trinkof

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Well they could split it up to a full and a allies only pack in that case

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Well they could split it up to a full and a allies only pack in that case

Maybe, and that would be awesome, because I would love a med scenario....

 

But if they keep their product Model like it is now, a med scenario would be very problematic marketing wise.

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Or they could just sell the theatre map and then you can select 8 planes in addition from the whole pool (BoS, BoM + next installment, including premium planes) that you would like to have in addition to the map.

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The last years of BoS were marked by improvements in the FM, DM fields, the introduction of all sorts of MP-gimmicks, new aircraft types and even tanks. Perhaps all of these steps were necessary in order to create a stable technical basis. Well, this point should be reached now.  Now 1C/777 should not forget to do the most essential of all things, namely, to tell the story.

Chart-topper songs, book bestsellers or blockbusters are made by their story. The later must contain all the emotions that fascinate people. This law applies to all entertainment media. Computer games are no exception.

In flight simulators, the story is usually told via their SP-campaign. In the case of BoS the narrative is left to an automated mission generator. Unfortunately, machines are the worst possible storytellers. For these reasons I'm not surprised about the feelings of Feathered and many others. I would even go one step further and assert that the commercial success of flight simulator games without a story is highly questionable. I believe that a "man conceived" and story-driven campaign will bring us back the many lost original IL-2 players and not further maps, another plane set or tanks.

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Who all thinks that's coming next? 

 

Me 262s and the like : )

no please

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In flight simulators, the story is usually told via their SP-campaign. In the case of BoS the narrative is left to an automated mission generator. Unfortunately, machines are the worst possible storytellers. For these reasons I'm not surprised about the feelings of Feathered and many others. I would even go one step further and assert that the commercial success of flight simulator games without a story is highly questionable. I believe that a "man conceived" and story-driven campaign will bring us back the many lost original IL-2 players and not further maps, another plane set or tanks.

 

Or you know, have a campaign like Falcon BMS, which is probably the best campaign engine ever made.

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Or you know, have a campaign like Falcon BMS, which is probably the best campaign engine ever made.

It's a nice feature but...no thanks. It was what caused the company that build it to go out of business. I readed a nice interview to the guy who was the lead dev of the DC and he says it clearly but not directly. So again, no thanks.

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It's a nice feature but...no thanks. It was what caused the company that build it to go out of business. I readed a nice interview to the guy who was the lead dev of the DC and he says it clearly but not directly. So again, no thanks.

Or even something like the 3rd party IL-2 DCG in IL-2 1946.

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I get what you guys are saying, wanting a SP campaign, with story telling and scripted events, with missions pre-built, right ? The problem is that some people find it boring (including me). Dont get me wrong, I used to play some very good user made campaigns on IL2 1946, but I would play it just once, because I knew what would happen. It was the same N planes taking off, meeting the same M enemies on the way. Thats also some of the reasons why some people only play MP, you'll never know what will happen, every sortie is different.

 

I would rather have something totally random, like what Pat is doing with PWCG. 

Edited by istruba
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Considering the need for it plus the amount of crack mission makers that hang out here (both new and from the old guard of Il-2 campaign artisans) would it be doable for the community to work out a campaign pack that follows a story like those classics that made the old Il-2 SP so special?

 

Currently I'm grounded due to PC specs but of anybody is up I'd gladly help once I can. In theory splitting the workload to some level should make the production time less tedious and laborious, and would allow for a good range of missions from different minds.

Edited by Lucas_From_Hell

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Trink,

 

It would not be hard to include three current Axis AC and add two more to that side while releasing four new Allied AC (plus the current p-40) for a BoMed. I'd probably do the P-38 as the premium on the allied side. Not sure what the Axis premium would be. Maybe an Fw variant (A4) as in BOS or the flyable Ju-52 many seem to want. Maybe this bumps us up to twelve potential AC as opposed to ten.

 

Fewer Axis AC would actually aid the release by reducing design cycles and you'd get as many 'new' aircraft as BOM is releasing - plus maps and potentially aircraft carriers. I don't see re-using some AC in nearly the negative light you do.

Edited by [LBS]HerrMurf

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Bob is a theater that is one sided! Not the Best for a team v team game

 

Side thought lets get a theater that was pretty much equal!!!!

 

I'm thinking 1942 Europe

Hows that? i dont get the one sided bit?

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Overwhelming strategic odds for the Soviets, who controlled most airbases and constantly harassed the German ones, while the Germans were numerically inferior with very few pilots (even less good ones) and aircraft left.

 

Personally I don't see the problem, after all we are waiting on battle of Moscow where the Soviets had the short end of the stick although in a much less dire situation and one that could (and was) reversed, unlike Berlin which was kind of "this war stinks, it'll be over soon, too many people died but they won't surrender so off to Berlin we go, we have no choice."

 

The late-war stuff can have some pretty good scenarios, just look at the amazing Storm Clouds or Tip Of The Spear campaigns for the old Il-2 by ShamrockOneFive (published as IceFire), but I think whatever continent they go to people want 1941-1943 fleshed out. Then of course, sometimes devs have ideas that are different from most requests and yet are spot on (RoF for example, or the DCS Ka-50 module).

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By the time the Allies (any of them) were flying and fighting over Berlin the Luftwaffe had for all intents and purposes ceased to exist as a cohesive fighting force. 

 

 

Talking about the ground war? The first bombing raid was Nov. 18th, 1943 on Berlin, wasn't the most important target for the Allies. The Luftwaffe was still pretty strong, the Schweinfurt raid earlier is a good example.

 

+1

Spitfire IX

Spitfire VIII

P-38G/H

P-47C

P-51B

.......Now we're talking :cool:

+1

 

.....Actual air battles, in a flight simulator? :o:

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Next map will be Kursk with a lot of new playable tanks and self propelled arty. Then we move to north Africa and maybe an aircraft carrier but no pacific.

 

Kuban is my favorite now.

Edited by 6./ZG26_Gielow

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To be honest, I've been at this long enough now that another map and another bunch of planes really isn't going to move anything forward for me.  It's just the same old gameplay with slightly different pieces.

What I most want is the experience of being there.  A game that works hard to capture the mood of the times gives you a real sense of being a part of those events.  The Battle of France, with an emphasis on the chaos, the paranoia, disorganisation, apathy and wasted heroism.  The Battle of Britain with the uncertainty, overwhelming odds, hectic squadron life and international cast.  The uncompromising pressure from Command during the Battle of Stalingrad, or the hopeless shambles in defence of the Far East.  I want to feel something of what it was to be young and at war and embedded in those times.  Surely I can't be alone in this?

 

Sorry, but it's impossible for a game to recreate any of that.  The only way to really bring back the feeling of being there is to kill you if you get shot down.  It's not possible for a game to recreate the fear that made all those other things so compelling.  The best that they can do is give you the aircraft and the maps where the battles were fought.  The rest is up to you. 

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Sorry, but it's impossible for a game to recreate any of that.  The only way to really bring back the feeling of being there is to kill you if you get shot down.  It's not possible for a game to recreate the fear that made all those other things so compelling.  The best that they can do is give you the aircraft and the maps where the battles were fought.  The rest is up to you. 

 

 

I think the reactions to Feathered's sentiments are a bit silly.  I don't think anyone really believes he wants to feel the real fear, the mind-numbing fatigue and malnutrition and gut wrenching stress of combat on the front lines.  Anyone who interprets these ideas as such is completely missing the point of what 777/1CGS are attempting to do.  

 

Some people come to this game looking for a logical "next step" from places like War Thunder or drop in from their technically superior looping experience of starting a P-51 with a clickable cockpit over, and over, and over...to turn and burn and drop some bombs, or lone wolf over the VVS at 7k take some swipes at a yak or 2 and then disco before they get shot.  Fine.

 

Others, and Feathered seems to be one of them, are looking for a historical experience that, to the max extent possible, immerses them in a virtual world where everything around them is part of a time and place that they've read about and wondered "what would that have been like?"

 

While BoS / BoM have a long way to go, these titles have by far come the closest to providing, albeit on a limited front, the best experience of WWII air combat and its environs.  From he feel of flight to the scope of battle over a massive city under siege.  For those of us who are looking for the WWII experience, there is so much more to this sim, so much potential yet realized, that the hope is that the Devs will not just resort to dumping planes and such out at record pace.  So much more could be done to expand on the gameplay and add experiences beyond lift vector on - pull....

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I think the reactions to Feathered's sentiments are a bit silly.  I don't think anyone really believes he wants to feel the real fear, the mind-numbing fatigue and malnutrition and gut wrenching stress of combat on the front lines.  Anyone who interprets these ideas as such is completely missing the point of what 777/1CGS are attempting to do.  

 

 

But those are EXACTLY the things that he says he wants.

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Through a good campaign it is possible to instill at least part of that sentiment. First person narratives are good for this, but the main point is to tell the story. For example, have an ace and also your best friend be shot down on the same day, then add a couple of lines about the state of fear or stress or acknowledgement of death that was about. You can add quotes by people who were there, like diary entries.

 

I disagree that you can't get that feeling. Red Orchsstra instills the deepest cold in your spine and can have you turn from hero to coward really quick for example. I remember my first time playing (SP, to try jt out) assaulting Spartanovka as a German. I had the feeling that the orders make sense but something feels definitely wrong about this whole affair, and once the bullets started flying I actually cowered up and hid under a bridge in fear for five minutes while people were shooting stuff up and screaming. I felt safe until the Soviets assaulted the bridge then I killed someone in fear and proceeded to assault the church, just to feel a chill as I fell to the ground while running scared - I died and it didn't feel like 'oh well respawn'. So it's possible, to an extent.

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These statements are only showing the difference in a flight simmer and a gamer. Feathered is a true simmer and those not understanding him are gamers, treating this and other sims like it is Counterstrike . So getting into a discussion about this is like one writing in Cyrillic and the other in English. 

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These statements are only showing the difference in a flight simmer and a gamer. Feathered is a true simmer and those not understanding him are gamers, treating this and other sims like it is Counterstrike .

Come on, that's just needless rhetoric.

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