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Arfsix

Open Letter to Devs

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Per capita GDP in the USA $53,000

Per capita GDP in Russia $24,000

 

So why do you think the game should be priced the same for both markets?

 

 

 Per capita GDP in Colombia $4376

 

so why dont i get a 2 dollar version of the game??

 

Yes lol 

it should be free in Africa then, and pricey as hell in Norway and Switzerland

 

 
Edited by Yakmaster

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You guys really don't understand why a game based on the Battle of Stalingrad would be sold at a discount in Russia?  Really???

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If its discount of game in Russia, why then standard and premium version is same price in Russia.

If they are concerned about GDP per capita, and giving Russians price of game more suited to their incomes, why is then the same price as in rest of the world on standard and premium in Russia.

Why need for 3rd starter version of game, maybe because of WT and unlocks and that cheeper version dosent have anything to do with GDP per capita in russia, because starter version is basically similar system WT has. Pay for airplane if you dont want to grind for it in game or dont pay and grind for it in game. That starter version is the main version for witch this whole unlock system is maid, they just dont give game for free like WT but putt some small price on it.

Edited by Yakmaster

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Per capita GDP in Colombia $4376

 

so why dont i get a 2 dollar version of the game??

Per capita GDP really isn't a good measure. Median Houshold Income is more relevant

Luxembourg $37,000

USA $31,000

Russia $11,000

Mexico $4,500

 

So the pricing strategy in any of these markets is going to be different. Obviously the developers understand that. It doesn't mean anyone is being "ripped off".

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It seems to me that the pricing issue is a distraction from more pressing concerns about whether BoS can and will deliver on it's promise.

 

Different prices for different markets is normal business practice where arbitrage between markets is ineffective, and companies will always do it if it is legal and maximizes revenue. It may seem a little strange for digitally downloaded products since there is no apparent difference in marketing infrastructure and costs to "justify" the price differences, but in capitalism prices do not need to be "justified": they are what the market will bear, and by "the market" I mean whatever segment of the market the seller can target separately, right down to the individual purchaser.

 

Thinking that prices should be "fair" is really socialist psychology: possibly ethically superior if you like that kind of thing, but nothing to do with free markets.

 

The speculation about involvement of Russian state financed government or government backed bodies in financing BoS could be a concern, and I would hope that this rumor could be refuted, if Jason has not already done so. To my knowledge this was specific to the new RoF module.

 

Even here concern would only be justified if it could be shown to lead to any compromising of the game's authenticity for nationalistic reasons. So far I can see no evidence of this (although some "luftwhiners" ;) may disagree). Otherwise governments are free to subsidize their citizens in a variety of ways, and it could be argued that BoS is an educational tool.

 

The real question is whether each of us has felt sufficient value for money to want to buy more product from 1CGS. As a mainly SP gamer I am in the camp that says no, but it would not take very much to push me into the yes: seeing progress or a credible promise of progress on the same issues everyone else has: customization options, some tweaking to campaign mission types and processes to make them more credible and immersive, AI improvements, eliminating unlocks or at least getting them out of the way of core gameplay. I hope some of these issues will be addressed in the promised December roadmap.

Edited by unreasonable

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Just counted my RoF $ and it was 330$ in planes, mods, maps and weaps.. and I've spent just a little time on it, compared to other sims/games, I don't even have it installed at the moment (same as BoS) But don't feel ripped off on RoF at all

I think in terms of $ spent / hour played, RoF is the cheapest game I own ;-)

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Using that criteria for me it would have to be IL2 hands down..

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Hello Bearcat,

 

One thing still remains after all those debates...

 

... We still don't know WHY 777 made the choice of having the unlock system. What is so important for 777 to have such a system in a high end sim, knowing it would

upset many hardcore players.

We still dont know WHY we can't have custom graphic settings as all other modern games do.

Maybe if we could have a hint of what good its doing for the sim and its future development, we would be more patient and positive about those issues.

 

Just a tought.

They answered the second question: they don't have the support manpower needed to handle the number of support tickets induced by custom graphic settings. Give it a second thought. It makes sense.

 

About the unlocks. As 777/devs are not answering, I think the question has to be directed to 1C. But they dont read in this forum.

Edited by BlackDevil

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As to why we have the unlock system: Loft has stated he considers the campaign the core and heart of BoS and wants to make sure that everyone plays this campaign. He didn't make that statement with a direct connection to unlocks, but seeing where the game went in the end, I'm pretty sure this is the reason. Everyone now has to grind through the campaign in order to properly play the game.

 

Personally I don't get why they didn't simply make an enjoyable campaign which everyone wanted to play, possibly even making it MP-COOP compatible to make it even more attractive.

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It is not a campaign. It is an enhanced QMB.

 

Good campaigns need more time. Veteran66 made a very nice start. And we can be sure, lots of that will be coming. Would be nice, if the devs could provide an interface for that third party campaigns. Why should the devs spend their valuable time into creation of mission content ?

Makes no sense.

Edited by BlackDevil

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I wouldn't get too hung up on the different regional pricing. This is standard enough when it comes to all sorts of goods. BOS has other more pressing issues that need attention if it wants to grow in the marketplace. Ill fitting unlocks, a dull campaign, no custom graphic options, low MP count, no mission editor yet, etc. are things which are putting new customers off buying the game and, in my case anyway, would put me off buying any future expansions. I'm not sure what Loft was thinking with some of these decisions. Hopefully things change before it all gets terminal as there's a good base to work with here. 

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I agree with this open letter. We already bougth the game Months ago, thats why devs dont mind in changing their decisions

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So blessed to be able to continue my education here in the forum.....I'm privy to experts in all fields not the least of which is economics, sociology and the absolute best two.....ethics and psychology.

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Exactly.  If this were the case I would buy the $100 package right now, even though I'm working at how to free up cash for a computer upgrade that would allow me to play it.

 

Flight simulation is an expensive hobby, that is a given, so why make it even more difficult by requiring the folks that pay to grind out content?   It's just senseless on the face of it.

Maybe they made the cheap version to sell any copies in Russia with rest of the airplanes as unlockables, yet they applied the same unlocking system not to make the Russians feel it would be unfair to give all 10 planes to the Westerners from the get go. Does that make sense?

Hello Bearcat,

 

One thing still remains after all those debates...

 

... We still don't know WHY 777 made the choice of having the unlock system. What is so important for 777 to have such a system in a high end sim, knowing it would 

upset many hardcore players.

We still dont know WHY we can't have custom  graphic settings as all other modern games do. 

Maybe if we could have a hint of what good its doing for the sim and its future development, we would be more patient and positive about those issues.

 

Just a tought.

You know, to say some things that can make your main customer base go up in flames is a PR disaster. So not  to say it is the better choice.

But I`m just guessing here.

I agree with Rjel. This Us vs Them stuff is indeed extremely tiresome.

 

 

Nah, just ban all the TX guys and we`ll be ok. :cool:

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Yes lol 

it should be free in Africa then, and pricey as hell in Norway and Switzerland

I live close to Russia and the standard game here is still priced at 60$.

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It's no different than items like the price of gasoline being different, based on geographical factors like proximity to major highways, per capita of the region, etc. In other words, that's capitalism. 

 

Either you don't understand why goods would be priced differently in different regions, or you're just being deliberately obstinate. I think I know what the answer to that is.

 

 

 Per capita GDP in Colombia $4376

 

so why dont i get a 2 dollar version of the game??

 

LukeFF would you like to answer his question.......

 

 

They answered the second question: they don't have the support manpower needed to handle the number of support tickets induced by custom graphic settings. Give it a second thought. It makes sense.

 

About the unlocks. As 777/devs are not answering, I think the question has to be directed to 1C. But they dont read in this forum.

 

 

thats just an excuse mate, i have never heard of a company neutering someones graphics customization under the guise of it being a "customer support issue" but i tell you what might give you the answer as to why they did it....ask your self why when you crash into the ground (your still in the cockpit) does the POV change to you being 50 feet away from the crash.

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LukeFF would you like to answer his question.......

 

 

 

 

thats just an excuse mate, i have never heard of a company neutering someones graphics customization under the guise of it being a "customer support issue" but i tell you what might give you the answer as to why they did it....ask your self why when you crash into the ground (your still in the cockpit) does the POV change to you being 50 feet away from the crash.

Huh?

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LukeFF would you like to answer his question.......

 

That's for 1CGS to decide, based on how much they feel sales in Colombia are important to the game's success. 

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ask your self why when you crash into the ground (your still in the cockpit) does the POV change to you being 50 feet away from the crash.

RoF has the same crash animation but it also has custom graphic settings. You lost me with this one... I think the view goes outside the plane cause you're dead.

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I think they choose to place the camera outside the plane during a crash sequence because it's cinematic.

 

I see nothing suspicious about it.

 

you're right there is nothing "suspicious" about it :)  they did it to stop you computer from lagging out. I hopped on a MP server and was taking off when i got Vulched...my wing broke and the plane burst into flames while I was in the cockpit and my FPS went from seventy-ish to 5....I imagine a violent high speed fireball  riddled crash  might do more than just drop your FPS.

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First, I would like to state that as a customer and a WWII combat sim fan, I really wish this product to move on and flourish as much as possible. And much like Extreme_One said, I'd rather be critical about stuff that is IMO wrong, then to be quiet about it pretending problems don't exist like some advocate. Of course, will give credit where it is due as well, it's not nice to just point out bad sides as it would paint everything in just black. But this particular thread is about game issues and concerns, not it's strong points, and it is asked in appropriate way.

 

Second, all points made by OP seem valid and of community interest (judging by activity), so I keep reading too. Some attack him because he seem to have enough money to buy things he like and values, yet don't like to be taken for a fool - that is being smart and loaded with money as opposed to being Paris Hilton and alike.

This is a product like any other and when I buy stuff from same manufacturer like another customer I like to share same terms as anyone else. If you change the price, it must be changed for everyone. Much like ROF at this time, it is same price for everyone, and same discount for everyone, don't matter how much they change the price, as long as new pricing is same for all customers at that time. So I agree with that point too.

 

There is no need for such stunts that can leave one to feel a bit like a sheep. If 777 needed support, they could have asked for extra donations like Star Citizen and Elite:Dangerous did and I am quite sure that many of us would probably help out, while some would not and that is ok too. But given that choice, those that would give more money would never complain because they would feel good about it because they choose to do it, and were not tricked into anything.

 

That brings me to the point where I'd like to address Beracat.

Why do you keep insisting on threat on closing valid and interesting tread due to some individuals that can't behave? You have the means to punish and weed out precisely those that get out of line as a moderator, I simply do not see the reason to close down whole topic because some trolls get insulting. To my understanding, forums purpose is to provide the place for discussion and even confrontation of opinions, as long as we stick to some basic civil rules (again, punish only those that do not by temporary banning just them). One should not close down a pub because one drunk got too loud :).

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If you change the price, it must be changed for everyone. Much like ROF at this time, it is same price for everyone, and same discount for everyone, don't matter how much they change the price, as long as new pricing is same for all customers at that time.

Everything is not the same cost for people that purchase the same product in different economies, even if the "price" is the same. The fact that 1CGC has different sales or pricing strategies for different markets doesn't make any of those prices "unfair".

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First, I would like to state that as a customer and a WWII combat sim fan, I really wish this product to move on and flourish as much as possible. And much like Extreme_One said, I'd rather be critical about stuff that is IMO wrong, then to be quiet about it pretending problems don't exist like some advocate.

And there lies the problem. It might be "wrong" in your eyes, but that's just an opinion unless it's something specific like a historical error or an obvious error in a plane model. Certain elements of the game play aren't wrong. They might very well be unpopular or even out of place considering the genre. Whether that makes them wrong is just opinion and no more valid than someone's opinion who might support the elements you disagree with. It sure doesn't give anyone the moral high ground when setting themselves up as protectors of all things good in the mythic flight simulation that we all seem to be seeking in the hopes of finding perfection.

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Everything is not the same cost for people that purchase the same product in different economies, even if the "price" is the same. The fact that 1CGC has different sales or pricing strategies for different markets doesn't make any of those prices "unfair".

.

I simply do not agree, there are products that can be altered by shipping, customs and other fees for distributors. But when we talk about digital distribution, there is no justifying it to me personally. If it pays off in Russia to sell at that price, they it pays off in the rest of the world. And we're talking big difference here for literally no extra cost for developer between the two markets.

 

Then again, we all have different view what is normal and acceptable. Games used to ship finished and full content only to expand further trough big and meaningful expansions. Won't even go into what do we get nowadays with DLC's, unlocks, pre-order bonuses, etc... I guess most new kids find that normal and acceptable, they did not see things before they became ugly mess they are today.

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And there lies the problem. It might be "wrong" in your eyes, but that's just an opinion unless it's something specific like a historical error or an obvious error in a plane model. Certain elements of the game play aren't wrong. 

 

Sorry mate, you missed the point in this discussion. Not a single participant mentioned FM or DM or any other historical thing not getting simulated right. We're not dealing with usual smoke screen today :)

 

Things in question are not matter of opinion, but more fundamental pillars of the genre and today standards set for industry in question. Ask your self how happy would you be if game don't offer TIR support to the point of banning the use of it all together, or worse HOTAS support? For some people without top hardware, not having custom settings in 2014. game borderlines with that. Some are bothered by not be able to change name, others by unlocks, player limit in MP, etc...

 

Those are all basic things, solved long ago by comparable products and with standards set and accepted by audience, we should not even have to discuss in 2014. combat sim (my personal opinion of course, you keep your right to like and accept these restrictions but I will never ever understand why would you choose to do that).

 

Like I said before, I like this game and would buy it again, but that does not mean I don't agree with OP and share some of his concerns...

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.

I simply do not agree

What does a Big Mac sell for in Croatia? Probably not for the same price it does where anyone else lives. What about a gallon of milk?

Take some business, economics or marketing classes and come back when you do understand.

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Sorry mate, you missed the point in this discussion. Not a single participant mentioned FM or DM or any other historical thing not getting simulated right. We're not dealing with usual smoke screen today :)

 

Things in question are not matter of opinion, but more fundamental pillars of the genre and today standards set for industry in question. Ask your self how happy would you be if game don't offer TIR support to the point of banning the use of it all together, or worse HOTAS support? For some people without top hardware, not having custom settings in 2014. game borderlines with that. Some are bothered by not be able to change name, others by unlocks, player limit in MP, etc...

 

Those are all basic things, solved long ago by comparable products and with standards set and accepted by audience, we should not even have to discuss in 2014. combat sim (my personal opinion of course, you keep your right to like and accept these restrictions but I will never ever understand why would you choose to do that).

 

Like I said before, I like this game and would buy it again, but that does not mean I don't agree with OP and share some of his concerns...

No mate, you missed my point. What I said was because you might disagree with aspects of the game doesn't make your opinion the correct one. It's only your opinion. Your statement - "And much like Extreme_One said, I'd rather be critical about stuff that is IMO wrong, then to be quiet about it pretending problems don't exist like some advocate." - implies to me that only those who point out what they feel is wrong with BoS are enlightened where as those who aren't constantly beating a drum of doom are merely fools sticking their heads in the sand. There are several folks around here who seem to have become little more than regular agitators awaiting each development, then jumping on it hard, while telling everyone "I no longer play because..." 

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RoF has the same crash animation but it also has custom graphic settings. You lost me with this one... I think the view goes outside the plane cause you're dead.

 

Because we have the models, texture, animations from RoF.

The Game Engine is maybe modular you can remove or add how you want. Thats make it easy to develop or to change fast the settings.

 

Everything is not the same cost for people that purchase the same product in different economies, even if the "price" is the same. The fact that 1CGC has different sales or pricing strategies for different markets doesn't make any of those prices "unfair".

 

The difference and the unfair starts with the beginning of the Campaign and ends that the expensive Versions and cheaper Versions are not seperated from each other!

 

1. With the normal Standard and Premium Version I have 8 or 10 planes now available that I dont need to unlock but the campaign think I have a cheaper Starter Edition and start with the Lagg-3 and Bf-109 F-4

2. All Unlocks can be removed completely only from the expensive Standard and Premium Version and you are still able to go through the campaign! A good example are the Bf-109 F-4 Gunpods 20mm that are unlocked or the CD-Key that say what Version you have and lock you if needed.

 

Look at the prices for new games in russia and compare it with the price from the Starter Edition that is a new game, too. Dont forget to compare who developed the game and from where the game comes from.  The Starter Edition is a discount price. Thats Sozialismus.

 

The prices are 1:1 at different economies. And the difference is sometimes only 20$ if you look at games. I you buy more than one game there thats a whole other story because what you save there is much more than noticable at your wallet.

 

I simple not understand their strategies? They are the devs who generate the CD-Keys and can do different CD-Keys for different versions to seperate from each other.

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1. Presets on display settings are fine but I would like to be able to override them.

Hi Arfsix. I understand that, however we have no plans about changing the graphical preset system.

2. When I pay for content, I want it available as soon as my money is paid to the company. Unlocks add nothing to the game.

You have all the content you paid for, including the rewarding minor bits of content such as unlockable modifications and skins.

3. I am deeply insulted that the company feels it can charge me a premium for BoS and then sell the same content for 1/3rd of the price to others and think I am too stupid to notice.

When the prices were set and the discs were sent to production, the price for limited Russian retail version was $15-17. Simple maths here: 8 planes - $60, 2 planes - $15.
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Zak; the presets are fine but why not give the option to have custom settings as an option for those that want them?

 

Think how much bitching that would stop?

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Hi Arfsix. I understand that, however we have no plans about changing the graphical preset system.

In Early Access there was user data being collected on the Preset Optimization thread. Is this still active? If so, people having problems with the presets should post their results there so the Devs can evaluate it.

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Zak,

     Thank you for your answers. While not what I was hoping for, you as a company representative did take time to address these issues.   :salute:

 

 

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I think they choose to place the camera outside the plane during a crash sequence because it's cinematic.

 

I see nothing suspicious about it.

You may have noticed that the camera moving to the outside the plane only occurs when the aircraft is inverted during a crash. This is because when you are upside down your cockpit view 'clips' with the ground and you can see beneath the in-game ground and see white nothingness. You get the same outside camera effect if you try and "nestle to gunsight" in the belly gunner position on the Pe-2 even if it is parked upright, so it's implemented to prevent us looking through the ground.

 

It would be nice if they could overcome this limitation eventually and allow us to remain in first person the entire time during a crash regardless of being inverted or not. It's a bit jarring to be thrown to outside view even when you are still alive, plus on something like the Oculus right staying in first person would be a cool experience.

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No mate, you missed my point. What I said was because you might disagree with aspects of the game doesn't make your opinion the correct one. It's only your opinion. Your statement - "And much like Extreme_One said, I'd rather be critical about stuff that is IMO wrong, then to be quiet about it pretending problems don't exist like some advocate." - implies to me that only those who point out what they feel is wrong with BoS are enlightened where as those who aren't constantly beating a drum of doom are merely fools sticking their heads in the sand. There are several folks around here who seem to have become little more than regular agitators awaiting each development, then jumping on it hard, while telling everyone "I no longer play because..." 

 

And you may count yourself amongst their rank.....being an indignant cheerleader while browbeating people with your ""opinion"" and insulting people at the same time because they are not marching in lock step with you and waving the 777 flag  is obnoxious and counter productive to say the least .

 

FYI this issue with the cost differential is not about ""opinion"" it is about an advantage given to a specific market period! unless of you have employed some convoluted type of logic to justify the guy in Colombia who on average makes 1/3 what a Russian citizen makes should still pay full price AND have to trudge through the unlocks to receive equipment he already payed for.....

 

There has been a lot of bad decisions made in the last 2 months that collectively have had an impact overall...

the video presets

the unlocks

no ME

no skin templates

reducing the MP to 32

and of course the $12 version...

 

The Dev's said that %80  of their customer base was single players....well it's not my ""opinion"" when i say that seeing 200 people at most online means that 800 people are playing offline is a problem ...unless 1000 customers was their target...

 

Being silent about a problem never got it solved and if the same issue keeps coming up over and over and over again perhaps it is time to address it.....

 

 

A.Hi Arfsix. I understand that, however we have no plans about changing the graphical preset system.

B.You have all the content you paid for, including the rewarding minor bits of content such as unlockable modifications and skins.

C.When the prices were set and the discs were sent to production, the price for limited Russian retail version was $15-17. Simple maths here: 8 planes - $60, 2 planes - $15.

A. this is bad news

B. If i have them why do I need to unlock them....

C. Simple math? Kool, does that mean i get to grind and unlock the next 6 planes  like they can in the Russian version? I think that would be much more....egalitarian  :) will that happen?..of course not.

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So those that bought the $15 version can't unlock the other planes without spending real cash?

No, they need to spend real hours of their personal life to get these planes.

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And you may count yourself amongst their rank.....being an indignant cheerleader while browbeating people with your ""opinion"" and insulting people at the same time because they are not marching in lock step with you and waving the 777 flag is obnoxious and counter productive to say the least .

 

FYI this issue with the cost differential is not about ""opinion"" it is about an advantage given to a specific market period! unless of you have employed some convoluted type of logic to justify the guy in Colombia who on average makes 1/3 what a Russian citizen makes should still pay full price AND have to trudge through the unlocks to receive equipment he already payed for.....

 

There has been a lot of bad decisions made in the last 2 months that collectively have had an impact overall...

the video presets

the unlocks

no ME

no skin templates

reducing the MP to 32

and of course the $12 version...

 

The Dev's said that %80 of their customer base was single players....well it's not my ""opinion"" when i say that seeing 200 people at most online means that 800 people are playing offline is a problem ...unless 1000 customers was their target...

 

Being silent about a problem never got it solved and if the same issue keeps coming up over and over and over again perhaps it is time to address it.....

 

 

 

A. this is bad news

B. If i have them why do I need to unlock them....

C. Simple math? Kool, does that mean i get to grind and unlock the next 6 planes like they can in the Russian version? I think that would be much more....egalitarian :) will that happen?..of course not.

Always with the negative waves! Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

 
Edited by SharpeXB
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Lol.. yeah that was good... touche does not do it justice...

 

Hi Arfsix. I understand that, however we have no plans about changing the graphical preset system.
You have all the content you paid for, including the rewarding minor bits of content such as unlockable modifications and skins.
When the prices were set and the discs were sent to production, the price for limited Russian retail version was $15-17. Simple maths here: 8 planes - $60, 2 planes - $15.

 

No, they need to spend real hours of their personal life to get these planes.

 

The graphics preset comment is very disappointing. I was hoping that like the 32 person server limits that eventually as things were worked through that this would be changed.

 

As for the differences in the less expensive Russian version... So are you saying that they can unlock the Yak and the Stuka etc... What about the La & the FW? Can they unlock those as well or will they have to buy them?

 

I think that many folks throughout the community who are upset about things like the unlocks etc.. are even more upset about the lack of responses from the team and that has so many shorts in a knot. I am sure I am not alone in saying thank you for responding in this thread.

 

Zak... for the record......

 

As a die hard supporter and advocate of BoS, a longtime flight sim junkie and as a customer... I really think that this, what you have done in this thread is a good thing and needs to be done more. I cannot speak for everyone else mind you.. but I would rather hear " ..... I understand that, however we have no plans about changing the graphical preset system." than nothing at all. The former is easier to deal with even though it is something that I do not want to hear. Silence ... saying nothing ...  leaves all sorts of speculation open for consideration from "they have your money and don't really care what you think.." to "they are making an arcade game and could care less about what we as 'simmers' want.." . I don't think that any of those ideas are true mind you... but that is some of the "stuff" being bandied about on this and other forums. I believe what you guys said when you started this project and I can see it coming from BoS in time... but silence from the team on all of these issues from unlocks to graphics presets leaves a lot open to speculation where as something, something solid and concrete from the team at least allows those who are mature enough to say "OK this is what it is .. so I will decide to take it or leave it..." to do so with much more to go on.

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Zak... for the record......

 

As a die hard supporter and advocate of BoS, a longtime flight sim junkie and as a customer... I really think that this, what you have done in this thread is a good thing and needs to be done more. I cannot speak for everyone else mind you.. but I would rather hear " ..... I understand that, however we have no plans about changing the graphical preset system." than nothing at all. The former is easier to deal with even though it is something that I do not want to hear. Silence ... saying nothing ...  leaves all sorts of speculation open for consideration from "they have your money and don't really care what you think.." to "they are making an arcade game and could care less about what we as 'simmers' want.." . I don't think that any of those ideas are true mind you... but that is some of the "stuff" being bandied about on this and other forums. I believe what you guys said when you started this project and I can see it coming from BoS in time... but silence from the team on all of these issues from unlocks to graphics presets leaves a lot open to speculation where as something, something solid and concrete from the team at least allows those who are mature enough to say "OK this is what it is .. so I will decide to take it or leave it..." to do so with much more to go on.

Pretty well sums it up for me as well.  +1

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