Unit Information and Czar for PWCG

[Jason_Williams]

Here is where we will discuss acquiring and preparing historical data about Russian, German and Italian units that may be included in PWCG for BOS. This data would include info about locations, pilots, movements, airbases, plane types, sorties flown and awards. 

 

I am looking for an "UNIT CZAR" to gather, collate and present this data to Pat in a form he can use. Please raise your hand if you have the drive to do that for us.

 

Jason

[csThor]

I've got an unfinished spreadsheet for the Luftwaffe for the phase November - end of Stalingrad campaign at home.

[=38=Tatarenko]

JULY & AUGUST IN THE EARLY ADVANCE / DON BEND

 

Germans

 

StukaG 2 (80x Ju87)
SchlachtG 1 (mixed attack planes - mainly Ju87 and 109E)
JG3 (74x 109)
Recon units
less than half serviceable
Some Italian aircraft
Luftflotte 4 - Ju52 - Transport assisting German advance by flying fuel etc forwards - over 300 a/c
III/KG4 - He111 used as transports, based Makeyevka, assisting German advance by flying fuel etc forwards

 

From 31 July also I/JG53 (bf109G2 often with 20mm gondolas) - seen as elite unit
From 20 August also II/JG52 (109G-2)

 

Soviet

 

8VA 85 fighters, 48 IL-2, 88 day bombers, 116 night bombers (all serviceable plus other unserv. a/c)
Including LAGG-3 with 37mm to be used vs tanks and many Su-2
included divisions
235 IAD (LaGG-3)
268 IAD
269IAD (LaGG-3)
270 BAD
287 IAD (from 20 Aug - incl 27, 240, 297 and 437 IAP))
regiments
2 IAP (LaGG-3)
183 IAP (Yak-1)
27 IAP (La-5) (arrived 20 Aug)
240 IAP (La-5) (arrived 20 Aug)
297 IAP (La-5) (arrived 20 Aug)
437 IAP (La-5) (arrived 20 Aug)
686ShAP (IL-2)
86 BAP (Pe-2) (from Mid August)
779 BAP (Pe-2) (from Mid August)

 

Stalingrad 102 IAD PVO (air defence) ca 50 fighters.

 

 

 

 

​

Edited September 23, 2015 by =38=Tatarenko

[=38=Tatarenko]

ASSAULT ON STALINGRAD FROM 23 AUGUST - 10 SEPTEMBER 

 

Germans

 

Attack:

 

StG 2 (80x Ju87)

I/StG 77

SchlachtG 1 (mixed attack planes - mainly Ju87 and 109E)

 

Fighters:

 

Stab and III./JG3 (Bf109)

I/JG53 (bf109G2 often with 20mm gondolas) - seen as elite unit

some III/JG52 (109)

some I/JG52 from 9 Sept - Bf109

Grupul 7 Van (Rumanian) - Bf109E - Karpovka

Grupul 8 Van (Rumanian) - IAR 80B - Tusov

 

Bombers:

KG27

KG51

KG55 (He-111)

KG76 (Ju-88)

I/KG100 (He-111)

 

 

+ Recon units

+ Rumanians (IAR 80 and 109E) from 6 Sept.

+ some ZG1 Bf-110 esp at night

 

Transport:

 

Luftflotte 4 - Ju52 - Transport assisting German advance by flying fuel etc forwards - over 300 a/c

III/KG4 - He111 used as transports, based Makeyevka, assisting German advance by flying fuel etc forwards

 

 

 

Soviet

 

8VA 85 fighters

by this stage many Su-2 lost

included divisions

206 ShAD (Il-2)

220 IAD (Yak-1)

226 ShAD (Il-2)

228 ShAD (IL-2)

235 IAD (LaGG-3)

268 IAD

269IAD (LaGG-3)

270 BAD (Pe-2s incl 86, 140, 779 BAP)

283 IAD (Yak-1 unit - incl 431, 520, 563 IAP) from early Sept.

287 IAD (La-5 unit - incl 27, 240, 297 and 437 IAP)

291 ShAD (54 IL-2) arrived 4 Sept.

 

 

on 4 Sept 220 IAD (Yak-1) and 228 ShAD (IL-2) became core of new 16VA

 

 

regiments

2 IAP (LaGG-3)

183 IAP (Yak-1)

27 IAP (La-5) 

240 IAP (La-5)

297 IAP (La-5)

431 IAP (Yak-1) (from early Sept) 

437 IAP (La-5) 

520 IAP (Yak-1) (from early Sept) 

563 IAP (Yak-1) (from early Sept) 

788 IAP

686ShAP (IL-2)

688 ShAP (IL-2)

86 BAP (Pe-2) 

284 BAP (Pe-2)

140 BAP (Pe-2)

779 BAP (Pe-2) (Stepnoye airbase)

783 ShAP (Il-2)

621 NBAP (Po-2)

ADD (Long Range Bomber Command) 6 divisions of bombers (prob mostly IL-4 and Bostons)

 

Stalingrad 102 IAD PVO (air defence) ca 50 fighters. incl I-153 and I-16 (629 IAP)

Edited September 23, 2015 by =38=Tatarenko

[LLv24_Zami]

In case you haven`t spotted this, here is a website of the Stalingrad airlift. There is a map of airfields used, planes, units and day by day operations from november 1942 to february 1943.

 

http://www.stalingrad.net/german-hq/the-stalingrad-airlift/mainpage_airlift.htm

Edited September 23, 2015 by Zami

[=38=Tatarenko]

THE BATTLE FOR STALINGRAD FROM 10 SEPT

 

Russians basically lost fighter air battle from 26 Sept. Stukas and Bombers had largely free flight over SGrad. Russians concentrated on build up for Uranus instead.

 

Germans

 

Attack:

 

II/StG 1

StG 2 

I/StG 77

SchlachtG 1 (mixed attack planes - mainly Ju87 and 109E)

 

Fighters:

 

Stab and III./JG3 (Bf109)

I/JG3 (arrived from Germany around 26 Sept)

I/JG53 (bf109G2 often with 20mm gondolas) - seen as elite unit (away from 26 Sept)

some III/JG52 (109G2) (away from 26 Sept.)

some I/JG52 from 9 Sept - Bf109

Grupul 7 Van (Rumanian) - Bf109E - Karpovka

Grupul 8 Van (Rumanian) - IAR 80B - Tusov

Esc 79 Bomb (Rumanian) - He111 - arrived 25 Sept

Esc 80 Bomb (Rumanian) - He111 - arrived 25 Sept

 

Bombers:

KG1 (Ju-88) (from 10 Oct)

KG27

KG51

KG55 (He-111)

KG76 (Ju-88)

I/KG100 (He-111)

 

 

+ Recon units incl. 1.(H)/10 (Fw189 Ramka)

+ Rumanians (IAR 80 and 109E), Gp 1,3,5,6 Bomb (He111, S79, PZLP23, Potez and IAR 81)

+ some ZG1 Bf-110 esp at night

 

Transport:

 

Luftflotte 4 - Ju52

III/KG4 - He111 

 

 

 

Soviet

 

8 VA and 16 VA under unified Stalingrad air command

 

Note: Huge amounts of Pe-2's had been lost by this stage and the Soviets were mainly relying on the IL-2 for day time use and heavy bombers like the Boston and IL-4 at night.

 

included divisions

206 ShAD (Il-2)

220 IAD (Yak-1)

226 ShAD (Il-2)

228 ShAD (IL-2)

235 IAD (LaGG-3)

268 IAD

269IAD (LaGG-3)

270 BAD (Pe-2s incl 86, 140, 779 BAP)

283 IAD (Yak-1 unit - incl 431, 520, 563 IAP) 

287 IAD (La-5 unit - incl 27, 240, 297 and 437 IAP)

291 ShAD (54 IL-2) 

 

 

 

regiments

2 IAP (LaGG-3)

4 IAP (Yak-1)

183 IAP (Yak-1)

27 IAP (La-5) 

237 IAP

240 IAP (La-5)

291 IAP (LaGG-3)

296 IAP (Yak-7B)

297 IAP (La-5)

327 IAP

431 IAP (Yak-1) 

434 IAP (Yak-7B)

437 IAP (La-5) 

520 IAP (Yak-1) 

563 IAP (Yak-1) 

586 IAP (Yak-1) (**all female IAP) (possibly off north of our map)

788 IAP

686ShAP (IL-2)

688 ShAP (IL-2)

86 BAP (Pe-2) 

284 BAP (Pe-2)

140 BAP (Pe-2)

779 BAP (Pe-2) (Stepnoye airbase)

783 ShAP (Il-2)

621 NBAP (Po-2)

ADD (Long Range Bomber Command) 6 divisions of bombers (prob mostly IL-4 and Bostons)

 

Stalingrad 102 IAD PVO (air defence) ca 50 fighters. incl I-16 and I-153 (both 629 IAP)

Edited September 23, 2015 by =38=Tatarenko

[=38=Tatarenko]

OP URANUS AND THE AIRLIFT FROM 19 NOVEMBER

 

The Germans had assumed control over the air and sent away all fighters except JG3. Rumanian 109E also quite active out of Karpovka.

The main response to Uranus (heavy fog 19-21 November) came from pairs of Stukas.

 

Germans

 

Attack:

 

II/StG 1

StG 2 

I/StG 77

SchlachtG 1 (mixed attack planes - mainly Ju87 and 109E and Hs123)

 

Fighters:

 

Stab, I and III./JG3 (Bf109) (only 50 109)

 

Grupul 7 Van (Rumanian) - Bf109E - Karpovka

Grupul 8 Van (Rumanian) - IAR 80B - Tusov

Esc 79 Bomb (Rumanian) - He111

Esc 80 Bomb (Rumanian) - He111 

 

II/JG52 back in 109G2 from 12 Dec to cover Op Wintergewitter

 

 

Bombers:

KG1 (Ju-88) 

KG27

KG51

KG55 (He-111)

KG76 (Ju-88)

I/KG100 (He-111)

 

 

+ Recon units incl. 1.(H)/10 (Fw189 Ramka)

+ Rumanians (IAR 80 and 109E), Gp 1,3,5,6 Bomb (He111, S79, PZLP23, Potez and IAR 81)

+ some ZG1 Bf-110 as Airlift Escorts and airbase attack

+ very few Macchi 202 sorties as Airlift Escorts

 

 

MAIN GERMAN AIRLIFT FORCES

 

KGzbV 5 Makeyevka He111

KGzbV 9 Konstantinovka Ju52

KGzbV 20 Morozovsk He111 (from 25 Nov)

KGzbV 50 Tatsinskaya Ju52

KGzbV 104 Kirovograd Go244 (not serviceable)

KGzbV 106 Kirovograd Go244 (not serviceable)

I/KGzbV 172 Stalino-Nord Ju52

KGzbV 200 Fw200, Ju290, Ju90

KGzbV 500 Tatsinskaya Ju52

KGzbV 700 Taganrog Ju52

KGzbV 900 Tatsinskaya Ju52

+ from 29 November all LuftFl 4 He-111's were assigned to transport.

+ from 1 Dec:

2 KGzbV (unknown unit numbers) Ju86

Italian Gr 71 OA - Fiat BR20 as transports

Rumanian Esc 105 Transport Greu Ju52

I/KG50 He177

 

 

Soviet

 

8 VA and 16 VA under unified Stalingrad air command

17 VA

 

Note:Heavy bomber use esp Pe-2's in day and IL-4 and Bostons at night against rail targets.

 

included divisions

201 IAD

206 ShAD (Il-2)

220 IAD (Yak-1)

226 ShAD (Il-2)

228 ShAD (IL-2)

235 IAD (LaGG-3)

267 ShAD (IL-2) (17 VA)

268 IAD

269IAD (LaGG-3)

221 BAD (Bostons)

262 NBAD (night bombers)

270 BAD (Pe-2s incl 86, 140, 779 BAP)

283 IAD (Yak-1 unit - incl 431, 520, 563 IAP) 

287 IAD (La-5 unit - incl 27, 240, 297 and 437 IAP)

214 ShAD

291 ShAD (54 IL-2) 

+ from mid Dec 2 BAK with 122 Pe-2

 

ADD (Long Range Bomber Command)  (prob mostly IL-4 and Bostons) comprising ...

17 AD

50 AD

1 AD

3 AD

24 AD

53 AD

62 AD

 

 

regiments

 

(Yak-1, Yak-7B, LaGG-3, Kittyhawk, La-5)

 

2 IAP (LaGG-3)

3 GIAP (Ace Unit Flying La-5)

4 IAP (Yak-1)

5 GIAP (La-5)

9 GIAP (New Ace Unit Flying Yak-1, joined battle 10 December)

13 IAP

27 IAP (La-5) (away 20 Dec)

183 IAP (Yak-1) 

181 IAP

237 IAP

240 IAP (La-5) (away 20 Dec)

291 IAP (LaGG-3)

296 IAP (Yak-7B)

297 IAP (La-5) (away 20 Dec)

327 IAP

431 IAP (Yak-1) 

434 IAP (Yak-7B)

437 IAP (La-5)  (away 20 Dec)

520 IAP (Yak-1) 

563 IAP (Yak-1) 

581 IAP (Yak-1)

586 IAP (Yak-1) (**all female IAP) (possibly off north of our map)

788 IAP

814 IAP (Yak-1)

285 ShAP (IL-2)

622 ShAP (IL-2)

686ShAP (IL-2)

688 ShAP (IL-2)

811 ShAP (IL-2) Abganerovo

783 ShAP (Il-2)

57 BAP (Bostons)

86 BAP (Pe-2) 

284 BAP (Pe-2)

140 BAP (Pe-2)

779 BAP (Pe-2) (Stepnoye airbase)

2 GAP ADD (IL-4)

621 NBAP (Po-2)

 

 

Stalingrad 102 IAD PVO (largely inactive during this phase)

Edited September 23, 2015 by =38=Tatarenko

[csThor]

 

SchlachtG 1 (mixed attack planes - mainly Ju87 and 109E and Hs123)

 

Sorry, Ian, bit SchG 1 (the correct abbreviation) operated a mix of Bf 109 E-7, Hs-123 and Hs-129 B-1. The Ju 87 was flown only by the Stukageschwader.

 

Oh, and here is the promised (unfinished) OOB for the Luftwaffe Nov42 - Feb 43. 

OOB Luftwaffe Stalingrad Nov - Feb.zip

Edited September 23, 2015 by csThor

[=38=Tatarenko]

I know the abbreviation (!!) but Pat isn't a WW2 guy from what I understand so I thought I'd spell it out. 

 

As for planes, I know you're the expert for the Germans so as I wrote in my email to Pat, he should refer to you as the last word in German matters.

 

Can't find any ref re 129's before December. Weren't they in the Caucasus before that?

[Juri_JS]

That's a useful list csThor. A few remarks from me:

 

According to J. Prien's JG 3 books Platzschutzstaffel Pitomnik was formed on 12 December 1942 on the same day when when II./JG 3 arrived at Morosovskaya.

 

Moreover there were a few Fw-189 at the airfield during the encirclement, but I don't know from which reconnaissance unit.

 

According to some reports the Ju-87s from Heinz Jungclaussens Sonderstaffel were based at Pitomnik till mid January.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Juri_JS

[csThor]

Negative, II./SchG 1 operated from the airfields at Frolov and Tuzov before falling back to Millerovo in the face of the soviet advance against the Donez in late November 1942.

That's a useful list csThor. A few remarks from me:

 

According to J. Prien's JG 3 books Platzschutzstaffel Pitomnik was formed on 12 December 1942 on the same day when when II./JG 3 arrived at Morosovskaya.

 

Moreover there were a few Fw-189 at the airfield during the encirclement, but I don't know from which reconnaissance unit.

 

Of course, Platzschutzstaffel Pitomnik was primarily drawn from 6./JG 3 so it would make sense to date their arrival on December 12.

Edited September 23, 2015 by csThor

[Warhamm]

There is one problem with units. Some of them are based outside of the map which is available in the game. This is especially true for bomber units. Maybe choose airfields on the edge of the map for them?

[csThor]

Bomber units in this timeframe were often based far back (a good idea given the fluidity of the situation) and then flew in to bases like Tatsinskaya or Morozovskaya for operations before returning to their rear bases at the end of the day. Given the limitations of the map size we need to "get creative"

[Jason_Williams]

Somebody please give me a refresher on unit organization for German and Soviet Air Forces. I still only truly remember American organization.

 

And remember, PWCG operates at the squadron or regiment level so that is the info we need most. Where were the squadrons located and what did they fly and when.

 

Jason

[=38=Tatarenko]

For the Russians there is next to no base info.

 

For structure, for simplicity you could concentrate on the parts of my list that have xxP (P=Regiment) so ignore if you wish the bits under "Divisions" and just read the "Regiments" list.

 

IAP = Fighter R

BAP = Bomber R

ShAP = Shturmovik R

NBAP = Night Bomber R

AP ADD = Long Range Bomber R

 

I have included what they flew and when in my lists.

 

G at the Front means Guards so GIAP = Guards Fighter Regt. 

 

Any Q - let me know.

 

For the Germans I'll let Christian fill you in as my dinner is ready.

Edited September 23, 2015 by =38=Tatarenko

[707shap_Srbin]

@@=38=Tatarenko

Not true.

 

I./ZG1 and II./ZG1 at Krasnodar, but detachments at Froloff (W from STalingrad) to november. Then both Gruppen in Tazi and Moro, but in december I./ZG1 went to Millerowo to protect Italians, and II./ZG1 flew escort for Ju52 & He111's into pocket.

[707shap_Srbin]

@@csThor

4.(Pz.)/SchlG1 was there as You mentioned.

5./Schl.G.1 was in Tunis already in december, soon renamed in 8.(Pz.)/SchlG2.

6./Schl.G.1 was renamed in 8.(Pz.)/Schl.G.1 in same december, and followed 4.(Pz.)./Schl.G.1

7./Schl.G.1 with Hs123's flew under command of I./Schl.G.1.

[Warhamm]

And remember, PWCG operates at the squadron or regiment level so that is the info we need most. Where were the squadrons located and what did they fly and when.

You should give as form like this:

1) Name of squadron.

2)  Commander.

3) Airfields with date.

etc.

 

It should serious simplify the task for you and make all posts in this thread really useful.

[707shap_Srbin]

@@Jason_Williams

Ask BlackSix to sent You following two exel files:

BoS_Luftwaffe

BoS_VVS_RKKA

 

All (ALL!!!) units with timeframes, aircrafts e.t.c. are listed. 

[Jason_Williams]

Panzer,

 

If you have the files just send to me. I have no idea if B6 still has these files.

 

Jason

[csThor]

To make that list very short:

 

JG = fighter

ZG = heavy fighter (but by then effectively another type of ground-attack)

SchG = ground-attack using fighter-bombers or destroyers

StG = Stuka

KG = bomber

units with (H) in their name = tactical recon

units with (F) in their name = strategic (long range) recon

 

The transport units with Ju 52 or similar types were at this point usually abbreviated KGrzbV (= Kampfgruppe zur besonderen Verwendung .... don't you just love that bureaucratic german? )

 

EDIT: Jason you will find discrepancies with the airfields and dates in various spreadsheets. As good as the availability of sources is for the Luftwaffe (compared to i.e. the VVS below divisional level) it still has many and large holes in it. Often it's simply not known exactly where and when a specific unit was.

Edited September 23, 2015 by csThor

[Jason_Williams]

Thanks for the refresher. Yes, I am sure there are big holes in where units were stationed. We'll try to make it plausible.

 

Jason

[PatrickAWlson]

I was going to post what I have but decided not to since what is being presented here is probably far more accurate.  First, thanks to everybody for making the effort to provide information.  When the dust settles I will make changes based on best information and in game realities.

[=38=Tatarenko]

For the current map you only need the last of my lists so for regiments (and to keep it simple ...)

 

I know it is disappointing not to know all the bases but they moved up a lot during the battle and these are the best data I know of and all I can get. Maybe someone in Russia can tell you more.  This is the best I could do in about 6 hours.

 

2 IAP (LaGG-3)

3 GIAP (Ace Unit Flying La-5)

4 IAP (Yak-1)

5 GIAP (La-5)

9 GIAP (New Ace Unit Flying Yak-1, joined battle 10 December)

13 IAP

27 IAP (La-5) (away 20 Dec)

183 IAP (Yak-1) 

181 IAP

237 IAP

240 IAP (La-5) (away 20 Dec)

291 IAP (LaGG-3)

296 IAP (Yak-7B)

297 IAP (La-5) (away 20 Dec)

327 IAP

431 IAP (Yak-1) 

434 IAP (Yak-7B)

437 IAP (La-5)  (away 20 Dec)

520 IAP (Yak-1) 

563 IAP (Yak-1) 

581 IAP (Yak-1)

586 IAP (Yak-1) (**all female IAP) (possibly off north of our map)

788 IAP

814 IAP (Yak-1)

285 ShAP (IL-2)

622 ShAP (IL-2)

686ShAP (IL-2)

688 ShAP (IL-2)

811 ShAP (IL-2) Abganerovo

783 ShAP (Il-2)

57 BAP (Bostons)

86 BAP (Pe-2) 

284 BAP (Pe-2)

140 BAP (Pe-2)

779 BAP (Pe-2) (Stepnoye airbase)

2 GAP ADD (IL-4)

621 NBAP (Po-2)

 

 

(I added the first two as a central list for when we get SGrad Summer and Fall maps)

Edited September 23, 2015 by =38=Tatarenko

[Warhamm]

When I gather information on VVS i use Ratkin's book "Aviation in Stalingrad" 2013. But its only in Russian. There are tables of info about VVS and Luftwaffe regiments. 

 

This person has done a great job of collecting and structuring information. But even in his book, there are many gaps.

 

In view of its data. Practically there were no regiments that have fought from the beginning to the end of the battle for Stalingrad. And in order to go through the whole battle from beginning to end, the player needs to be transferred from the regiment to regiment in most cases.

[=38=Tatarenko]

Agreed. The main long term players were odd units (for us) like 17 and 50 AD ADD. The Pe-2's lost almost all their planes in early Sept, by which time almost all the Su-2's were gone as well. Often regiments nominally existed but the 9 remaining aircraft of a division would just fly together even if they belonged to 4 different regiments. The La-5 units that arrived in August were pulled out in December. Many IL-2 and Yak-1 units stayed on the scene but were constantly rebuilt after terrible losses so that the planes and pilots in January 43 weren't the same as those in September. The loss rates of IL-2's in particular was staggering, also for escorting LaGG's and Yaks. The real success for the Soviets came when they almost withdrew their daytime aviation in mid Sept (after losing almost everything)  and built it up again to full strength for the big push at the end of November and for December.

 

In a way it reminds me of what Galland did with his fighter force in 44, taking it almost out of play so he could throw it all against the bombers at once but of course they were used for Bodenplatte instead.

[LukeFF]

 

 

I know it is disappointing not to know all the bases but they moved up a lot during the battle and these are the best data I know of and all I can get. Maybe someone in Russia can tell you more.  This is the best I could do in about 6 hours.

 

I have pulled a ton of Soviet airfield, aircraft, and unit data from Bergstrom's books and passed it along to Jason. The info is out there in English.  

[=38=Tatarenko]

Great. I won't bother next time then.

[Jason_Williams]

Everyone relax. I'll got through what everyone sent me and talk to Pat about how many squads we can include in the first version. Might not be that many at first. Just so much info to comb through.

 

Thanks to everyone who has provided information. If anyone else wants to volunteer to sort the info and be the "czar" please let me know.

 

If there is more info out there please continue to provide.

 

Jason

[PatrickAWlson]

Thanks for all of the input.  Next step is to choose which units to include.  That will determine the most important skins to choose and which aces to prioritize.

 

I am still working basic functionality.  Right now I am play testing and editing different mission types.  The first test version will have one squadron per aircraft type. We will get around to fleshing things out as soon as time allows.

[csThor]

Next step is to choose which units to include.  That will determine the most important skins to choose and which aces to prioritize.

 

Given the limits of our aircraft pool and the air bases available I'd propose the following units for the Luftwaffe:

 

Fighters

 

I./JG 3 - predominantly fighter-sweeps and escorts for bombers/Stukas

III./JG 3 - predominantly escort for transport flights (AFAIR III./JG 3 was specifically given this task)

 

Stuka

 

I./StG 2 - to depict the "northern" part of the operations and the battles along the Tchir

I./StG 77 - to depict "Wintergewitter" (as the Gruppe operated from Kotelnikovo)

 

Bomber

 

II./KG 27 - given the lack of a Ju 88 and the fact that most bomber bases were far to the west of the map I'd use this unit and have it operate from Tatsinskaya or Morozovskaya flying a mix of supply and standard bomber missions

 

Given the lack of a Bf 109 E-7 and a Bf 110 (to be added in BoM) I'd not add dedicated fighter-bomber campaigns or units, yet.

Edited September 25, 2015 by csThor

[LLv24_Zami]

Good list there csthor!

 

But I would prefer playability first and historical facts second. Jabo units can use F4/G2 and even the FW-190 until we get those additional planes IMO.

And with bases same thing, I think there has to be compromises because 100% historical solution is not possible.

Semi historical approach with gameplay in mind is best IMO. Of course nothing too bizar.

[Saurer]

The Bf 109 E-7 and the 110 are the next aircraft in the releas list anyway

[Juri_JS]

Bomber

 

II./KG 27 - given the lack of a Ju 88 and the fact that most bomber bases were far to the west of the map I'd use this unit and have it operate from Tatsinskaya or Morozovskaya flying a mix of supply and standard bomber missions

 

My suggestion is to add II./KG 55 too, because that's one of the bomber units that operated from an airfield we have on the BoS map (Morosovskaya).

[csThor]

That would be another possibility and probably even better ... I blame a lack of coffee for not spotting this on my own.

[csThor]

Good list there csthor!

 

But I would prefer playability first and historical facts second. Jabo units can use F4/G2 and even the FW-190 until we get those additional planes IMO.

And with bases same thing, I think there has to be compromises because 100% historical solution is not possible.

Semi historical approach with gameplay in mind is best IMO. Of course nothing too bizar.

 

Given the very early state of the project I'd not try to cram anything in it, especially when the correct aircraft types aren't in-game, yet. I suspect Paul would appreciate being able to direct some workload onto other aspects (i.e. to make the experience better). Having either the Bf 109 F/G or even the Fw 190 as fighter-bombers is going to produce a much different outcome given the drastic performance advantages of either over the Bf 109 E-7 and the Bf 110. I'd rather not use these very different and vastly more powerful aircraft, especially if the Stukas were more relevant in the East for ground-pounding than  fighter-bombers at least until 1943.

Edited September 25, 2015 by csThor

[LLv24_Zami]

csthor, I don't know if Pat will include fighter bombers or not. If he is I'm fine with F4/G2 doing the job.

I was just saying that PWCG don't need to be 100% historical. Not in initial release and not in the future. And I think it is not even possible. So gameplay first, history second

Edited September 25, 2015 by Zami

[csThor]

Personal opinion not related to Paul's project:

 

Having a correct historical basis is the fundament on which gameplay can work. Yeah, I'm a stickler for details and having wrong units or wrong aircraft for the operation is detracting pretty much all of the immersion a campaign can generate.

[LLv24_Zami]

Yes, I agree it would be optimal situation to have all stuff historical. But I'm afraid that is not possible.

But I'm gladly wrong on this.

 

Anyway, I'm really looking forward for the first version. I'll gladly take whatever Pat gives us. Will be awesome to test it. November, come quickly :D

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

I will take a look on my library to see what I can found about this subject. Talk to you guys later.