Morane S. Bullet as Collector plane.

[=J18=Manfred_Schultz]

Hello everybody, I wait you're all having a freat day, and today I wanted to post another suggestion. Well I know that historically speaking the Morane Saulnier Bullet had not a sinchronization sistem, wich made it really dangerous to fly (well flying wasn't dangerous, shooting was) and that adding it to the game, wouldn't be a really good thing, but as a WWI enthusiast I think that It would be nice to have it as a collector plane, so that way, people like me, who really like WWI and extrange planes from the time, would be able to fly it. And well, being honest, the Morane Saulnier bullet was quite beautiful, and as I said before, a really curious plane to have as a Collector plane.
Anyway, I'll enable a poll, so we can share a little our opinions about this.

Have a great day y'all! 🫡

Edited November 10, 2024 by =J18=Manfred_Schultz

[Ghost666]

I voted yes. But then wouldn't any body say yes when asked if they want another plane. 

[No.23_Starling]

Go fly it now in Wings Over Flanders Fields

[=J18=Manfred_Schultz]

31 minutes ago, US103_Rummell said:

Go fly it now in Wings Over Flanders Fields

Yeah WOFF alreay has it, but just imagine how great it would look in FC, it'd be just amazing!

[WWBiker_]

Is WOFF a VR game?

We do need a early French plane in FC to fill the gap.

Edited November 9, 2024 by WWBiker_

[No.23_Starling]

2 hours ago, WWBiker_ said:

Is WOFF a VR game?

We do need an early French plane in FC to fill the gap.

Yes but you have to use VorpX with it. It’s not native VR like il2 and takes a little tweaking. I’ve got it up and running in VR - the instructions are online if you Google. I made a post about it too a while back 

[WWBiker_]

1 hour ago, US103_Rummell said:

Yes but you have to use VorpX with it. It’s not native VR like il2 and takes a little tweaking. I’ve got it up and running in VR - the instructions are online if you Google. I made a post about it too a while back 

Thanks Rummell I do have VorpX  and am familiar with it I will have to try.

[No.23_Starling]

The thread is here. Make sure to read to the bottom https://www.vorpx.com/forums/topic/wings-over-flanders-fields-woff-bhh2/

 

There is a CFS3 profile you can download but make sure to amend both the D3D files too as per the thread (there’s more than one). That was what tripped me up first time!

Edited November 9, 2024 by US103_Rummell

[ST_Catchov]

WoFF really needs a Spad 12 with a dirty big cannon. 

 

As for FC, yeah yeah the Bullet would be très cool. Viva la monoplane. But you know what FC really needs. Yep, the Morane L Parasol. Flyable. The world's first Cessna. 

[No.23_Starling]

11 hours ago, ST_Catchov said:

WoFF really needs a Spad 12 with a dirty big cannon. 

 

As for FC, yeah yeah the Bullet would be très cool. Viva la monoplane. But you know what FC really needs. Yep, the Morane L Parasol. Flyable. The world's first Cessna. 

Parasol is in WoFF too! I’ve already hunted to them about a XII… Their plane set is pretty big already with some interesting types so wouldn’t be too far fetched. 
 

They also include a variety of engine variants - SE5 150hp and early geared 200hp separate to Viper, Alb DV and DVa etc.

[Dr1falcon500]

3 hours ago, US103_Rummell said:

Parasol is in WoFF too! I’ve already hunted to them about a XII… Their plane set is pretty big already with some interesting types so wouldn’t be too far fetched. 
 

They also include a variety of engine variants - SE5 150hp and early geared 200hp separate to Viper, Alb DV and DVa etc.

Hasn't the cannon armed Spad topic been beaten to death. What about an early Fokker D for Flying Circus.

[No.23_Starling]

49 minutes ago, Dr1falcon500 said:

Hasn't the cannon armed Spad topic been beaten to death. What about an early Fokker D for Flying Circus.

WoFF has the early Fokker Ds too!

[Dr1falcon500]

2 hours ago, US103_Rummell said:

WoFF has the early Fokker Ds too!

Not news to me I fly one in Jasta 2 campaign. Better luck with your little hints to WOFF!

[PatrickAWlson]

Back to the OP, Morane Bullet ... sure ... but. 

 

For:

• it was in RB3d. 
• It would allow monoplane vs. monoplane fights.

 

Against:

• There were only 50 produced.   
• It was known to be an excruciatingly difficult plane to fly.  Developing the FM would be a challenge.  Not much documentation around it.
• There are a lot of planes that are much more important to fill out the WWI landscape that are also interesting to fly. 
• The allies already have a better and more historically numerous plane for the 1916 period in the N11. 
• There are not nearly enough planes to push FC back to 1915.

[Flashy]

Voted No, but only because there are WAY more important planes which we need first.. we still dont have the B.E.2 (the most common 2 seater in the RFC), or indeed any early war 2-seaters (German B class planes, Caudron, Avro 504, etc).. If they are going to devote resources to making new WW1 planes, these should be top of the list..

[PatrickAWlson]

4 hours ago, Flashy said:

Voted No, but only because there are WAY more important planes which we need first.. we still dont have the B.E.2 (the most common 2 seater in the RFC), or indeed any early war 2-seaters (German B class planes, Caudron, Avro 504, etc).. If they are going to devote resources to making new WW1 planes, these should be top of the list..

 

Been beating that drum for 15 years.  My arms are very, very tired.

[Trooper117]

5 hours ago, Flashy said:

If they are going to devote resources to making new WW1 planes

 

But they aren't unfortunately...

[No.23_Starling]

16 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

Back to the OP, Morane Bullet ... sure ... but. 

 

For:

• it was in RB3d. 
• It would allow monoplane vs. monoplane fights.

 

Against:

• There were only 50 produced.   
• It was known to be an excruciatingly difficult plane to fly.  Developing the FM would be a challenge.  Not much documentation around it.
• There are a lot of planes that are much more important to fill out the WWI landscape that are also interesting to fly. 
• The allies already have a better and more historically numerous plane for the 1916 period in the N11. 
• There are not nearly enough planes to push FC back to 1915.

The wing warping is already in the Eindecker FM so that’s not a big leap. I’d expect the all-flying stabilitor setup to be trickier, plus deflection plates.

 

I remember William Fry complaining about it in his book saying it was hard to fly - 60 squadron had one (the latter variant with the Vickers) in addition to the more common types.

 

I think Old Rheinbeck have a decent static example which is part original MS so there’s at least one they could use as a basis for 3D modelling etc.

 

1C and 777 Studios have included more niche types in the past but that was to create content for new fronts.

Edited November 11, 2024 by US103_Rummell

[PatrickAWlson]

34 minutes ago, US103_Rummell said:

1C and 777 Studios have included more niche types in the past but that was to create content for new fronts.

 

They have.  I personally wish they had not.  I would much rather have a BE2 and an early German recon than the Fokker D8 or the SSW, but that's just my opinion.

[VonS]

Voted yes (even though I don't have FC) because I like the Morane Bullet so much. By the way, it can also be flown in First Eagles 2. Cheers and may you see the Type N Bullet in the FC series one day (also the Type I with scalloped trailing edge on the wings, a Vickers M.G. with synchronization gear, and the 110 hp LeRhone rotary, and top speed of about 170 kph).

 

Good flying to you,

😊

 

 

(Skin not historically representative because the Bullet was not used on the Italian front; but I like to fly it everywhere.)

[Enceladus828]

1 hour ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

They have.  I personally wish they had not.  I would much rather have a BE2 and an early German recon than the Fokker D8 or the SSW, but that's just my opinion.

They could have thrown in one plane per FC installment that wasn’t in RoF: SS D.IV for FC1, Snipe for FC2, Rumpler C.IV for FC3, BE2 and Aviatik C.1 for FC4. That way long time RoF fans can get planes they’ve been requesting for a long while and make FC not so much so a copy and paste of RoF. They still could have added early and late war two seaters for FC3 and FC4.

[Dr1falcon500]

26 minutes ago, Enceladus828 said:

They could have thrown in one plane per FC installment that wasn’t in RoF: SS D.IV for FC1, Snipe for FC2, Rumpler C.IV for FC3, BE2 and Aviatik C.1 for FC4. That way long time RoF fans can get planes they’ve been requesting for a long while and make FC not so much so a copy and paste of RoF. They still could have added early and late war two seaters for FC3 and FC4.

I would rather have had a few extra planes than Paris. Even moderately sized towns load in piece by piece so suppose I have to pause 5 minute while it loads. What will Paris be good for anyway besides a weekend of fun for the flyboys.

[No.23_Starling]

4 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

They have.  I personally wish they had not.  I would much rather have a BE2 and an early German recon than the Fokker D8 or the SSW, but that's just my opinion.

It’s odd they didn’t at least put in the BE2 as AI given that it’s your main fodder for a lot of the conflict. Realistically not many ppl will want to fly the BE2, at least not in MP. BE2 and earlier B/C type German planes should be meta with the DVIII etc being collector planes.

[PatrickAWlson]

3 hours ago, US103_Rummell said:

It’s odd they didn’t at least put in the BE2 as AI given that it’s your main fodder for a lot of the conflict. Realistically not many ppl will want to fly the BE2, at least not in MP. BE2 and earlier B/C type German planes should be meta with the DVIII etc being collector planes.

 

I am an SP player.  I enjoy starting a career in a twos eater before transitioning to fighters.  However, if I'm completely honest, I mostly want a more variety in my targets.

[Flashy]

9 hours ago, US103_Rummell said:

It’s odd they didn’t at least put in the BE2 as AI given that it’s your main fodder for a lot of the conflict. Realistically not many ppl will want to fly the BE2, at least not in MP. BE2 and earlier B/C type German planes should be meta with the DVIII etc being collector planes.

I think its pretty laughable that we have a WW1 "sim" without a B.E.2.. thats like having a WW2 sim without a HE 111, or a Lancaster.. I get that many people wouldnt want to fly them necessarily (although I would love to fly any early war 2 seater!) but they should absolutely have added them as AI at least.. and probably in 2011 already!

 

[Flashy]

12 hours ago, Enceladus828 said:

They could have thrown in one plane per FC installment that wasn’t in RoF: SS D.IV for FC1, Snipe for FC2, Rumpler C.IV for FC3, BE2 and Aviatik C.1 for FC4. That way long time RoF fans can get planes they’ve been requesting for a long while and make FC not so much so a copy and paste of RoF. They still could have added early and late war two seaters for FC3 and FC4.

This is absolutely what they should have done, yes. Although without the Snipe and SS D.IV.. The re-release of RoF content into FC was the perfect opportunity to add a few sorely-needed planes and fill in the gaps in the planeset, with one or two new planes per volume as you suggest. Instead they build two new fighters (as if we dont have enough of those already🥱) which were virtually useless from both a historical perspective, and for the career mode/SP. I mean, I'm glad they made "something" new, but it boggles the mind why two planes which saw literally a few weeks of action before the armistice were chosen over all the other planes we need.. the Snipe and SS D.IV should have been number 49 and 50 on a list of "50 most needed aircraft for FC"..

[Zooropa_Fly]

The paying public was shouting for a Snipe way back in RoF days.

[Flashy]

That is probably true, but there have been people shouting since the beginning for pretty much every plane which existed in WW1. I dont think planes should be built based on who shouts the loudest - it should be based on which were the most common (and important) aircraft on the front in the areas and time period we are dealing with (1916 -1918)...

 

The B.E.2 and German B-class 2-seaters (Aviatik, Albatross, DFW, LVG etc) were the workhorses of their respective air forces for large parts of that time frame, so they need to be there before any "nice-to-haves"..

 

WW1 was a war of 2-seaters primarily.. they were the ones doing the actual "work". The fighters were there to prevent them doing that work. Fighter vs fighter engagements were pretty much irrelevant in the grand scheme of things..

Edited November 12, 2024 by Flashy
ambiquity

[Zooropa_Fly]

I agree, BE2's etc. would have been great and really should have been in game as AI at least, a long time ago.

I'd have liked FC1 to have been a full on early war module.

The EIII and DH's were always a bit lonely in RoF.. and now FC.

 

But I suspect profit margins will have been tight (at best), and first and foremost the devs have to try and make money to be able to continue.

Hence the 'big hitters' appearing in FC1.

 

As for the Snipe, it's not so much a case of the loudest voices, it was a case of the most voices.

The one plane that was low hanging fruit for a profit.

 

But boy, what an anti-climax when I finally climbed in to discover she was but a baby Dolphin !

[Flashy]

yes the expense to build them would have been just as much as any other plane, I understand that, and I dont think they would ever work as collector planes because not enough people would buy them. But, as part of a bundle they make much more sense. Most of the planes which I buy as part of the bundles, I will never really fly (like pretty much all the German planes), but I buy the bundle for the planes I do want. I think that is true for a lot of people as well. So, either create flyable versions of them and include them with a FC volume in place of some of the other planes (they can go into future bundles), or create AI only versions which will be included for owners of all bundles, in the same way as other AI only planes. This should make the game more attractive as a whole because it offers a more complete single player experience, so something like FC4 with its early war planes makes much more sense from a SP/career perspective.  That way you will still have lots of people buying the bundles for the planes they find interesting, and the development of the "less-exciting" or AI only planes can be paid for through increased sales of those bundles..

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

3 hours ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

I agree, BE2's etc. would have been great and really should have been in game as AI at least, a long time ago.

I'd have liked FC1 to have been a full on early war module.

The EIII and DH's were always a bit lonely in RoF.. and now FC.

 

But I suspect profit margins will have been tight (at best), and first and foremost the devs have to try and make money to be able to continue.

Hence the 'big hitters' appearing in FC1.

 

As for the Snipe, it's not so much a case of the loudest voices, it was a case of the most voices.

The one plane that was low hanging fruit for a profit.

 

But boy, what an anti-climax when I finally climbed in to discover she was but a baby Dolphin !

Agreed the Snipe was a huge disappointment. 

3 hours ago, Flashy said:

yes the expense to build them would have been just as much as any other plane, I understand that, and I dont think they would ever work as collector planes because not enough people would buy them. But, as part of a bundle they make much more sense. Most of the planes which I buy as part of the bundles, I will never really fly (like pretty much all the German planes), but I buy the bundle for the planes I do want. I think that is true for a lot of people as well. So, either create flyable versions of them and include them with a FC volume in place of some of the other planes (they can go into future bundles), or create AI only versions which will be included for owners of all bundles, in the same way as other AI only planes. This should make the game more attractive as a whole because it offers a more complete single player experience, so something like FC4 with its early war planes makes much more sense from a SP/career perspective.  That way you will still have lots of people buying the bundles for the planes they find interesting, and the development of the "less-exciting" or AI only planes can be paid for through increased sales of those bundles..

Great points.  Can't disagree with any of it.  However,  I'd still buy the Morane. But recognize it probably wouldn't be a big seller.

[LukeFF]

It's all about time and resources, guys. 🙂 The primary aim with Flying Circus was to bring RoF up to the same standard as the WWII GB content, e.g., 4K textures, VR support, better damage modeling, etc. The SSW D.IV and Snipe were planes requested for quite a while and ultimately, fighters are what sell the best among combat flight simmers. We've always kept the door open too for 3rd-party modelers to create new content for us (see for instance the work being done by the Finnish group), so by all means if someone builds a B.E.2 or any other plane for WWI, we would certainly be interested in adding it.

[No.23_Starling]

2 hours ago, LukeFF said:

It's all about time and resources, guys. 🙂 The primary aim with Flying Circus was to bring RoF up to the same standard as the WWII GB content, e.g., 4K textures, VR support, better damage modeling, etc. The SSW D.IV and Snipe were planes requested for quite a while and ultimately, fighters are what sell the best among combat flight simmers. We've always kept the door open too for 3rd-party modelers to create new content for us (see for instance the work being done by the Finnish group), so by all means if someone builds a B.E.2 or any other plane for WWI, we would certainly be interested in adding it.

That’s an interesting offer! What would the devs need for community content in terms of AI models? Is there a standard file format or set of files needed? We’ve data for performance on the BE2c so that could be provided too.

[ST_Catchov]

3 hours ago, LukeFF said:

The primary aim with Flying Circus was to bring RoF up to the same standard as the WWII GB content, e.g., 4K textures, VR support, better damage modeling ....

 

Channel map, flying boats, seaplanes .... 🙂

[BMA_Hellbender]

12 hours ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

But boy, what an anti-climax when I finally climbed in to discover she was but a baby Dolphin !

 

Better climb and roll than the Dolphin or Camel, though, but in the end sustained turn is king when you're face to face with a D.VIIF down low. In any case, the D.VIIF would have still absolutely dominated the Snipe at >10000ft, where they were meant to fight.

 

I'd really like to know what @Holtzauge's calculations would give for the Snipe's rate of turn ASL. Likely worse than the Dolphin, regardless, but I suspect it's mainly the Fokker that turns too well ASL, paired with optmistic performance down on the deck with full altitude throttle.

[Enceladus828]

5 hours ago, LukeFF said:

The primary aim with Flying Circus was to bring RoF up to the same standard as the WWII GB content, e.g., 4K textures, VR support, better damage modeling, etc. The SSW D.IV and Snipe were planes requested for quite a while and ultimately, fighters are what sell the best among combat flight simmers.

I fully understand that FC started off as an experiment and there’d be no point in teasing things which if anything would come many years down the road and Ugra has to be willing to do this along with other projects they’re doing, it’s just that what’s the point of rebuilding RoF as FC when it’s going to have less content (aircraft and maps) than its predecessor? We’ve only gotten the Snipe and SS D.IV as completely new planes; yes, it takes 3rd party teams longer to make them, and WW1 is a niche but it was this niche that kept RoF going till late 2012 and until 2015, as well as getting 4 volumes of FC, so to say that WW1 isn’t profitable for 1CGS is untrue.

 

Paris is nice and I’ll be doing flights around the Eiffel Tower but would making the BE2 and Aviatik C1 or just one of them take longer than to model Paris? I mean, the devs could have made some new two-seaters for FC3 and 4 — seems odd for only two new WW1 planes to be in FC. At this point it just makes sense for Ugra to add the Channel Map, seaplanes and the BE2 as a final sign off for FC.

[LukeFF]

4 hours ago, US103_Rummell said:

That’s an interesting offer! What would the devs need for community content in terms of AI models? Is there a standard file format or set of files needed? We’ve data for performance on the BE2c so that could be provided too.

 

Sneaksie would be the one to answer such questions. The best thing to do would be to send him a PM, as I'm not really involved with third-party model or map creators.

 

1 hour ago, Enceladus828 said:

it’s just that what’s the point of rebuilding RoF as FC when it’s going to have less content (aircraft and maps) than its predecessor?

 

It's for the reasons I outlined above. There was never any guarantee that we would bring everything over from ROF. Sorry, but I'm not going to endlessly explain or justify every last decision down to every minute detail about why Ugra was asked to do one thing for FC and not another. They are a subcontractor with us in the FC project, not a servant at our beck and call that we can just order around to make certain models. They also do a lot of work for other developers like DCS.

[Holtzauge]

9 hours ago, =IRFC=Hellbent said:

I'd really like to know what @Holtzauge's calculations would give for the Snipe's rate of turn ASL. Likely worse than the Dolphin, regardless, but I suspect it's mainly the Fokker that turns too well ASL, paired with optmistic performance down on the deck with full altitude throttle.

 

Did a simulation like that about two years ago: Looks like the turn time down low for the Snipe is OK but up high it deviates a lot. However, it's not alone in this regard since almost every other in-game aircraft is optimistic as well at higher altitudes IIRC (compared to the data in my book). 

 

And yes, the Fokker D.VIIF and Snipe should turn about the same down low (about 13 s both at 1 km) IMO. As I recall it, it was about 1 s too fast in-game at 1 km altitude in comparison to the data in my book.

 

[Flashy]

14 hours ago, LukeFF said:

It's all about time and resources, guys. 🙂 The primary aim with Flying Circus was to bring RoF up to the same standard as the WWII GB content, e.g., 4K textures, VR support, better damage modeling, etc. The SSW D.IV and Snipe were planes requested for quite a while and ultimately, fighters are what sell the best among combat flight simmers. We've always kept the door open too for 3rd-party modelers to create new content for us (see for instance the work being done by the Finnish group), so by all means if someone builds a B.E.2 or any other plane for WWI, we would certainly be interested in adding it.

I appreciate all of that @LukeFF, and I also understand that 1CGS is a business, so the products you develop have to be profitable, but I think there is a decent appetite for more early war content in FC (at least as much as some other "niche" planes, like the U2). Obviously I dont have any data on how well the U2 did as a collector plane (I suspect it wasnt brilliant), but hopefully it did well enough to justify its development. If not, I feel we need to come up with some other way to fund more WW1 planes, because it just isnt getting done with the current model..

Its great that 1CGS is open to 3rd-party 3d models for missing planes but, realistically, anyone who is skilled enough to create a model that meets the quality standard for FC is probably already doing that as a day job (this is beyond hobbyist level IMO), and probably wont be keen to work on 3d models in their spare time, so a third party partner like Ugra is probably the only realistic choice ..

I am not sure what the answer to this problem is.. there simply isnt the same level of demand for WW1 planes as exists for WW2, so WW2 will always win the economic calculation.. The only thing I can think of at the moment is selling the bundles as you have been doing, but maybe the community can come up with some other way to help fund these planes which we desperately need in FC..

Edited November 13, 2024 by Flashy

[LukeFF]

7 hours ago, Flashy said:

Its great that 1CGS is open to 3rd-party 3d models for missing planes but, realistically, anyone who is skilled enough to create a model that meets the quality standard for FC is probably already doing that as a day job (this is beyond hobbyist level IMO), and probably wont be keen to work on 3d models in their spare time, so a third party partner like Ugra is probably the only realistic choice ..

 

Sometimes these third-party planes have come from full-time "pro" modelers, yes, but some have also come from part-timers, so to say. The IAR 80/81 was one such project, and in fact the same person is behind the upcoming I-153. So, there is a precedent at the least.