Correcting 20mm HE-filler

[the_emperor]

 

since the later soviet 20mm got corrected from 2.8. to 5.6g of HE filling, lets bring up the filling of all 20mm HE-rounds in general

and correct them.

 

the game seems to use TNT equivalent for calculation and should there fore be corrected to the historical correct number

 

 

 

The values are:

5.6g TNT for the later soviet

11.3g TNT for the allied Hispano System

20g TNT for the german Mineshell

 

since all rounds hold explosives that are more effective than pure TNT, the correct values of TNT equivalent should probably be:

 

British/US:

5.6g Tetryl R.E. factor 1.25 ~7g TNT 

 

(Later) Soviet:

5.6g A-IX-2 (73% RDX, 23% aluminum powder, phlegmatized with 4% wax; R.E. factor 1.54)~8,624g TNT

or 4.13g (~6.36g TNT)  for the tracer version

 earlier soviet HE-I rounds held about 2,8g of tetryl (~3.5g TNT) or 2.64g A-IX-2 (~4.07g TNT)

https://www.gichd.org/fileadmin/uploads/gichd/Publications/Explosive_weapon_effects_web.pdf

 

German:

18,6g HA41 (75% RDX, 20% aluminum powder, phlegmatized with 5% wax; R.E. factor ~1.5)~28g TNT

 

 

in short if staying true to the historical numbers the in game values must be corrected as followed:

 

20mm Hispano

11.3g reduced to 7g

(I guess the devs made a mistake here and took the whole loading of 0.025lbs as explosive content but  HE-I filling of the Hispano 20mm had one part HE and one part Incendiary  as separate fillings)

everything Hispano can be found in my thread here:

 

 

 

20mm Shvak

5.6g increased to 8.6g

 

20mm mineshell

20g increased to 28g

 

FM-Report has been already submitted

 

[III/JG52_Supongo]

GJ

 

Regards

 

Supongo

[the_emperor]

credit to

@=MERCS=JenkemJunkie for pulling the files from the game

[GOA_Karaya_VR]

Hello gents

 

I wish that the devs can check or almost be aware of this corrections for put in the sim this information , we deserve a realistic and acurrate balistic information in the simulator ( despite if one specific ammo is more powerfull that others ).

 

Regards.

[the_emperor]

14 hours ago, GOA_SinVaselina_VR said:

I wish that the devs can check or almost be aware of this corrections for put in the sim this information , we deserve a realistic and acurrate balistic information in the simulator ( despite if one specific ammo is more powerfull that others ).

 

Yes, this should be corrected asap.

They were quite fast lately in correcting the later soviet HE von 2.8 to 5.6gram.

But the Hispano should be corrected asap. Here the mistake was made, that the whole loading of 0.025lbs (11.3g) filling was taken as HE filling...but this is just plain wrong.

the Shell was loaded 50:50 with HE and incendiary (not part of the game) so must! be cut in half (if you dont calculate for TNT equivalent). 

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

2 hours ago, the_emperor said:

filling was taken as HE filling...but this is just plain wrong.

the Shell was loaded 50:50 with HE and incendiary (not part of the game) so must! be cut in half (if you dont calculate for TNT equivalent). 

I believe devs  don't want that because they feel some compensation for lack of incendiary effect is needed in the first place. It's a pity that game doesn't model incendiary and one can  see it as not  fair advantage for german planes when there is half effect gone (hispano) or not presented (.50).

[the_emperor]

1 hour ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

I believe devs  don't want that because they feel some compensation for lack of incendiary effect is needed in the first place. It's a pity that game doesn't model incendiary and one can  see it as not  fair advantage for german planes when there is half effect gone (hispano) or not presented (.50).

 

No. 

if  that is actually the reasoning. they would need to compensate for the soviet and german as well, as they utilize a more modern HE-Incendiary mixture instead of seperate fillings....so double their filling as well?...add to that, that the germans are still missing the delay action...

 

The devs made it clear that incendiaries are not modelled in the game and in case of the Hispanos 20mm probably made a mistake

as getting infos on the weight of the HE and incendiary fillings is not clear in most documents...but those are hard numbers, and it should be in the  interested of the game that you go by those numbers. So sorry, that argument to compensate for lack of incendiary does not hold up.

 

And yes, if you look into my Hispano thread, there is a very important round missing, the SAPI, which was an integral part of the Hispanos belting.

All nations are dearly missing their incendiary ammunition (mostly the US .50s)

 

But compared to the German and the Soviet 20mm the Hispano makes smaller holes but still has superb ballistic performance and makes good frag damage (which made it a very handy weapon against softer ground targets).

 

Edited October 26, 2024 by the_emperor

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

Maybe instead of compensating for no I component 1C could buff the HE/AP ratio in the belts? Right now Russia is usually 1/3 HE, Hispanos are 1/2 HE and Germany is 2/3 HE for historical reasons I think? I dont know how they chose those ratios, but if they buff all the ratios to 2/3s HE or higher, or even better let people choose full HE belts like on the La-5's then 1C wouldn't have to fudge incendiary and people would still get some compensation.

[the_emperor]

having some belts to chose from would certainly be nice (eg no tracer for western allied .50s & 20mm).  

But correcting the filling to the historical correct ones (in the limits of the game) is more important and should be adressed asap as those are more easy fixed (and need no extra load outs to be programmed)

 

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

Yeah, new load out options is a big job, but changing the default HE/AP ratios in the mixed belts is a quick copy/paste job.

[the_emperor]

20 minutes ago, =MERCS=JenkemJunkie said:

but changing the default HE/AP ratios in the mixed belts is a quick copy/paste job.

true👍

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

On 10/26/2024 at 2:08 PM, the_emperor said:

 

No. 

if  that is actually the reasoning. they would need to compensate for the soviet and german as well, as they utilize a more modern HE-Incendiary mixture instead of seperate fillings....so double their filling as well?...add to that, that the germans are still missing the delay action...

 

The devs made it clear that incendiaries are not modelled in the game and in case of the Hispanos 20mm probably made a mistake

as getting infos on the weight of the HE and incendiary fillings is not clear in most documents...but those are hard numbers, and it should be in the  interested of the game that you go by those numbers. So sorry, that argument to compensate for lack of incendiary does not hold up.

 

And yes, if you look into my Hispano thread, there is a very important round missing, the SAPI, which was an integral part of the Hispanos belting.

All nations are dearly missing their incendiary ammunition (mostly the US .50s)

 

But compared to the German and the Soviet 20mm the Hispano makes smaller holes but still has superb ballistic performance and makes good frag damage (which made it a very handy weapon against softer ground targets).

 

Anyway I'm for correcting the numbers of  TNT equivalent for mismatched rounds. Hope to see it done despite that we would not see the incendiary payload in GB.

[the_emperor]

On 10/30/2024 at 7:10 AM, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

Anyway I'm for correcting the numbers of  TNT equivalent for mismatched rounds. Hope to see it done despite that we would not see the incendiary payload in GB.

👍

The missing Incendiary rounds for all nations is indeed really a bummer.

But correcting the HE-Payload should be in the interest for historical accuracy.

[MK_RED13]

the_emperor... How long have you been trying to get the devs to fix this obvious (hopefully unintentional) bug in this game??

[the_emperor]

@MK_RED13

dont know. At least my Hispano thread is a few years old and I guess they just made a plain and simple mistake by taking the filling of 0.025lbs/11.3g as all HE instead of 50:50 HE : Incendiary
But overall these are easy accessible public information (much easier if you speak and read russian). 
 

[MDzmitry]

Hey, first of all I forgot to thank you @the_emperor for the treasure trove of an information compilation on Allied 20mm ammunition.

 

And, just in case, I'll share the message I sent regarding HE/HEI filling efficiency here. Could be useful for people interested in the topic.

 

 

Edited April 10 by MDzmitry

[Roland_HUNter]

When it will be fixed?!

Interestingly, the Soviet HE was fixed immediately after the forum report.

[LukeFF]

Like with everything you ask, if there is something to share, we'll let you know. 🙂

 

Locked