AI Escort flight with Cover linked to the bombers flyes below the bombers until he crashs or returns to base?

[kraut1]

Hi All,

Has anyone experienced this behaviour that a AI Escort flight leader flyes below the bombers?

In the mission in the Kuban mountains after some 5 minutes: 1 time he crashed in the mountains and 2 times he returned to base.

When the leader gets the cover command he is in a good position, higher than the bombers, maybe 2 km behind them.

But when he closes to the bombers he looses more and more altitude.

Thanks in Advance

[kraut1]

Now it seems to me that AI of Airacobra is the reason:

I copied the mission 2 times:

1st: Original mission: B25 + P39: does not work, escort flyes below the bombers, either crash or return

2nd: copy of mission, only B25 changed to A20b: does not work, same issue

3rd: copy of 2nd mission, now with A20B and P40: works, no issues

But this does not mean that Airacobra has always a problem with Cover Command. When I created a test on the Velikiye Luki Map it worked.

Added later: In one mission the P40 has the same problem???

UPDATED 18th March: Airacobra is not the reason, same with P40

Edited March 18, 2024 by kraut1

[LukeFF]

Do you have a mission file handy?

[kraut1]

On 3/15/2024 at 5:40 PM, LukeFF said:

Do you have a mission file handy?

The first mission with Airacobra with the Cover problem:

(appears AI controlled with time acceleration after ca. 3...5 minutes)

1942-07-25b-Papua-New-Guinea-USAAF-P39.zip

Copy of first mission, but with P40s:

(Here Cover seems to work)

UPDATE 18th March: same issue, only difference with P40: it take some more minutes until escorts are flying below bombers.

1942-07-25c-Papua-New-Guinea-USAAF-P39_changed_to_P40.zip

 

Mission design is a maybe it bit complex and could be the reason, but I had never this problem with "cover"

generated with a modified EMG by Vander version for Papua New Guinea.

I have changed / modified nearly everything, so if the mission design is the reason  I am the guilty one

 

I wanted to use it for this campaign:

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/87764-emg-campaign-usaaf-airacobras-over-port-moresby-1942-status-mission-5-of-50-general-update-160324/

 

First mission:

and short time later:

With P40 okay:

UPDATE 18th March: same issue, only difference with P40: it take some more minutes until escorts are flying below bombers.

 

 

 

Edited March 18, 2024 by kraut1

[kraut1]

@LukeFF@SYN_Vander

Hi LukeFF:

2 new unmodified similar EMG missions created with 2 different EMG versions:

Always the same issues with more and more low flying escorts.

Even when they started escorting from a good, high position it takes about 5 - 10 minutes and they will fly below the lead flight.

From my personal point of view either the AI or the "Cover" command has been changed in the latest IL2 GB version.

 

emg-v79_2_and_v84_-kuban-escort-tests_default_no_modifications.zip

 

[LukeFF]

Thanks, I'll pass this along. ?

[LukeFF]

One of our mission designers just had a chance to look at this, and had this to say:

"It's a mission problem, not a cover command. It is best not to give a cover command when the cover and the plane being covered are too far apart. And it's best to follow the sequence of commands to avoid layering of commands. By redoing it according to my logic, the cover command started to execute correctly. Attached is the corrected mission and my version with takeoff and cover command only. This is an example, you can do it differently, but the main thing is that the commands should not be executed at the same time."

1942-07-25b-Papua-New-Guinea-USAAF-P39_with_work_cover.zip Cover_test.zip

[kraut1]

On 4/18/2024 at 5:14 PM, LukeFF said:

One of our mission designers just had a chance to look at this, and had this to say:

"It's a mission problem, not a cover command. It is best not to give a cover command when the cover and the plane being covered are too far apart. And it's best to follow the sequence of commands to avoid layering of commands. By redoing it according to my logic, the cover command started to execute correctly. Attached is the corrected mission and my version with takeoff and cover command only. This is an example, you can do it differently, but the main thing is that the commands should not be executed at the same time."

1942-07-25b-Papua-New-Guinea-USAAF-P39_with_work_cover.zip 723.33 kB · 0 downloads Cover_test.zip 2.28 kB · 0 downloads

Thanks very much for your reply!

Beside of the Papua New Guinea missions, that were modified by me in the wrong way, I have sent you 2 further unmodified EMG missions on march 18th.

In these missions I have observed the same issue.

@SYN_Vander do you think, that the reasons mentioned by LukeFF have to be considered in general for EMG mission design too?

Edited April 25, 2024 by kraut1

[LukeFF]

19 hours ago, kraut1 said:

Thanks very much for your reply!

Beside of the Papua New Guinea missions, that were modified by me in the wrong way, I have sent you 2 further unmodified EMG missions on march 18th.

In these missions I have observed the same issue.

@SYN_Vander do you think, that the reasons mentioned by LukeFF have to be considered in general for EMG mission design too?

 

Since they are EMG missions I think it's best you work this out with Vander. 🙂

[kraut1]

On 4/25/2024 at 5:58 PM, LukeFF said:

 

Since they are EMG missions I think it's best you work this out with Vander. 🙂

@LukeFF @SYN_Vander

 

Hi LukeFF and Hi SYN_Vander,

I spent this Saturday some hours for test:

It is in some respect a bit more complex...

In general I deactivated Mods and uninstalled all mods on my IL2 GB

 

Your cover_test mission has a straight forward design, the order of all commands is easy to understand.

For a test I just put it in a mission folder resaved the mission with the editor.

Test: during the first ca. 7..8minutes perfect. But then a mountain rigde comes closer (bombers are able to fly above it) and the escorts have some trouble (altitude of last wp only 1500m)

Then I modified your missions 2 times:

-Cover_test_Last_WP_over_coast_to_avoid_mountains.Mission

change: only the last WP moved over the coast, more far away.

Escort worked perfect

See Track

-Cover_test_max_wp_altitude_increased_for_mountains.Mission

change: only the last WP increased WP altitude due to the mentioned ridge and a further even higher mountain.

Escort worked during the first ca. 8minutes, but in contrast to the same mission over the (flat) coast here the escorts change altitude frequently.

After ca. 8-9 minutes Escorts looses more and more altitude and after ca ca.12:00 minutes the escorts fly mostly lower than the bombers.

The bombers reach the last wp at c. 12:40 minutes, last wp is by chance very close to the mentioned high mountain, but the bombers are still some 50m to100m higher and start to circling because it is the last wp. The escorts are flying now much more lower as the bombers and dangerously  close to the mountains.

See Track

-Further mission "Cover_test_max_wp_altitude_increased_for_mountains_and_moved_away.Mission"

same as mission before, but here wp moved ca. 60km more far away.

Sorry, Track was corrupt and my free time runs out.

But you will see if you play with autopilot: Escort changes altitude more frequently over mountains and after ca. 10minutes escort loose more and more alt. and is at the end lower than the bombers.

 

 

Further Escort Test mission over flat terrain:

clean-emg84-test-cover-over-flat-terrain1.Mission

very strange: works at first perfect, but between ca. 7:50 to 8:15 minutes the AI Autopilot seems to freeze and the player plane (and 1 wingman) follows the bombers the idle throttle slow and more and more loosing hight. added later: Even deactivation / activation of autopilot does not help. The other 2 fighters of the flight continue escorting.

IL2 is not crashed and it is possible to continue flying with manual control.

This happened 3 times.

See Track

 

At the end I tested an early BoF 1940 mission, created by me with an old emg in October 2022

40-05-16a-Antwerpen.Mission   (4xHe111 + 4xBF109-E7)

(In my excel pilot logbook I have seen that the mission worked, was successful)

-This mission worked too, ca. 15minutes observed)

See Track

 

Current Conclusion:

I have observed different things:

-Mountains seem to have a negative impact on the AI of escorts, even if the escorted Bombers are flying higher than the mountains are.

-An escort mission created with a clean EMG84 over flat terrain worked perfectly, until the AI autopilot of one fighter "freezed". The other AI escort fighter pair continued escorting.

-An OLD 2022 EMG mission (Rhineland map, BF109-E7 / He111 works.

added later:

-in general I think I am very experienced in using EMG. Between ca. October 2022 and now I have used only EMG for creating my "Excel Logbook Campaign Missions" and until march 2024 I never had issues with the escort flights. But maybe because I flew mostly over flat Terrain?

 

 

Tracks:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/fr5q14ymh8h3thy4unqjr/Cover-Test-Tracks.zip?rlkey=35qdrhup0aui47s850d1ets7m&st=8x8jqsjh&dl=0

Test Missions

2024-04-27-Cover-Test-Missions.zip

 

 

 

 

Edited April 27, 2024 by kraut1

[jollyjack]

Done some further testing with cover test, route continued low over the mountains until landing,

Them p39s seem to cover nicely, but probly will need an FC and their own landing waypointed.

- Cover Command proper setup.zip

[kraut1]

Here some additional last comments / questions:

-The corrected mission 1942-07-25b-Papua-New-Guinea-USAAF-P39 (reply April18th) has maybe a better mission design, but when engaging Autotpilot after mission begin and watching the track there is the same issue that I have reported: after some minutes of good working cover the escorts are loosing heigh, escorting fails.

-If I use the same mission, but replace the P39 by La5-s8 it works, with FW190A3 it does not work.

-Why does in some missions the escorting procedure work for ca 10minutes and then (I think mostly the flight leader) flies a full circle (that's normal) but when he is ca. 3-6km behind the bomber formation the AI seems to "freeze" and with "idle" throttle the plane follows the bombers too slow and looses high?

-In the current scripts.gtp are some data of the AI caeroplane_p_39l_1.txt and the caeroplane_p_40e_1.txt commented with "TODO"?

Tracks:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ltxhfilgm68tzvukax97x/Tracks-2024-04-28.zip?rlkey=usg6nwxls8d7jjgbnocc6b0hd&st=x5hfcats&dl=0

 

A last note: Sorry for the many requests! I know that we all have only limited time available and I fully understand if you can`t care for each of my questions / reports.

 

[kraut1]

On 4/27/2024 at 6:25 PM, jollyjack said:

Done some further testing with cover test, route continued low over the mountains until landing,

Them p39s seem to cover nicely, but probly will need an FC and their own landing waypointed.

- Cover Command proper setup.zip 2.44 kB · 0 downloads

Hi,

Thanks for your modified cover mission.

-The Cover command seems to work good in respect of that the escort continues escorting, even when it flies below the bombers and they try to avoid collisions with the mountains.

But there are 2 things still to be checked / answered:

-Why does the escort flight flies below the bombers or at the same altitude as the bombers. Normally it flew much more higher?

-The escorts are flying comparable close together in a chaotic way. At my 3rd test of your mission (saved with player = flight leader) there was a collision between 2 escorts.

Normally, in older game versions they flew in pairs, mostly with sufficient distances.

 

[jollyjack]

Seems questions for the IL2 staff?

[kraut1]

5 hours ago, jollyjack said:

Seems questions for the IL2 staff?

I suppose they are currently very, very busy in working on AI issues, I maybe the AI crashes during formation flying.

I have submitted already very many reports and messages and I don`t want to bombard them with many further ideas.

But I think if they have time available they could read this post and see our new conversation.

 

Concerning EMG I my current opinion:

 

-Something has been changed with AI, because for a very long time escorting worked in EMG without problems.

 

-Because I want to use EMG created missions without changing everything I tested today a new simple modification, that seems to work:

I removed the cover command of the cover timer, and I added an Event to the Attacker1, that starts the covering. And I moved the Wait wp a bit in take off direction, but this was not effective, because the escort flight flew at first a full circle.

This seems to work. Although the escort flight leader was loaded with an extra 250kg bomb and the covering started at a distance of about 2...3km the covering seemed to work. After flying the (Escort) campaign mission I started the mission again with AI autopilot and it worked, at least for the whole distance to the target area.

               

For me this is a acceptable preliminary workaround and I can continue working on my campaign missions.

 

Edited May 2, 2024 by kraut1

[LukeFF]

On 5/2/2024 at 1:07 AM, kraut1 said:

Hi,

Thanks for your modified cover mission.

-The Cover command seems to work good in respect of that the escort continues escorting, even when it flies below the bombers and they try to avoid collisions with the mountains.

But there are 2 things still to be checked / answered:

-Why does the escort flight flies below the bombers or at the same altitude as the bombers. Normally it flew much more higher?

-The escorts are flying comparable close together in a chaotic way. At my 3rd test of your mission (saved with player = flight leader) there was a collision between 2 escorts.

Normally, in older game versions they flew in pairs, mostly with sufficient distances.

 

Thanks, yes, this is an acknowledged issue internally, but right now there is no timetable to fix it.

[kraut1]

On 5/3/2024 at 5:27 PM, LukeFF said:

 

Thanks, yes, this is an acknowledged issue internally, but right now there is no timetable to fix it.

Hi LukeFF

today I made a small experimental mod of the P39 to avoid AI flaps usage at slow climbing / cruise flights.

(not really required what I found later, climbing formation flying works with speeds not slower than 160mph).

 

But I tested the mod with a default EMG escort mission.

 

With the mod escorting worked well. tested 2 times

Without the mod escorting did not worked. tested 2 times

 

For me this means, that the default EMG escort mission design works  again by using this mod as it did for some years without problems. @SYN_Vander

 

The strange thing: without the mod I was not able to observe AI flaps usage, but anyway AI was not able to follow the bombers.

Flew below bombers and lost at the end contact to the bomber formation.

I don't know why, but I have changed anything just by chance that has positive impact on the AI covering procedure.

(AI landing is still working with the mod, flaps are fully extended by AI)

Track generation failed, sorry

Test-cover-with-AI-flaps-mod-Papua-New-Guinea-USAAF-P39.Mission.zip

caeroplane_p_39l_1.txt.zip

[kraut1]

Concerning the mod and the test mission:

The mod mentinoned yesterday seems to have the positive effect the "Test-cover-with-AI-flaps-mod..." mission, but not in every escort mission

 

Added later:

with a similar mod for the P40 an intercept mission worked better.

The P39 interceptors were covered by a flight of P40s.

P39 flight leader was I. I climbed with 160..190mph with engine in "Nominal Mode".

With the mod activated the P40s were able to follow, without not.

 

For testing I will continue using these both mods:

caeroplane_p_39l_P40_1.txt.zip

 

Edited May 26, 2024 by kraut1

[kraut1]

Concerning the current acknowledged AI issues with Cover command:

If you are the leader of attacker / bomber flight, that should be escorted, I suggest not to use autopilot.

Because the "freezing" of the escort leader, or that the escort leader becomes more and more slower could be provoked by the "monotone" 100% straight AI autopilot cruise flight of the attackers / bombers.