VR Beta 2nd Anniversary!

[Dagwoodyt]

Best wishes for Year 3?

[343KKT_Kintaro]

Last week, after spending hours and hours on calculations on TFS' delays cost... I simply realised that the delays cost me... nothing! So I won't be unhappy with any TFS delay until 2030. In the meantime I'll keep wishing them good luck same as I'll keep bringing them my moral support. 'Cause... you know Dagwoodyt... it costs NOTHING.

 

 

[FTC_Karaya]

Have fun playing this sim in 2030 with the other 3 people still left playing it. I'll probably be enjoying Combat Pilot by then with the majority of ex-CloD and GB players.

At least it didnt cost you anything, right?

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

The truth is much worse, and it here now.

[343KKT_Kintaro]

3 hours ago, FTC_Karaya said:

Have fun playing this sim in 2030 with the other 3 people still left playing it

 

 

Sorry Karaya, you simply didn't get what I wanted to say.

 

 

[Dagwoodyt]

OK so long as we're confident that folks knowlegeable of the Team's situation aren't the ones counseling patience for another six years?

[343KKT_Kintaro]

"Best wishes for year 3" and an upside-down smiley, all of this is nothing but ill-intended sarcasm. Karaya (or others) may not get it yet, but this is why you started this thread Dagwoodyt. Gratuitous. As always. Wanna play games Dagwoodyt? Come on... You and a few others are playing them for years now.... Come on fellas, try to get some rest... at least do it for yourselves, who are contemptuous of the game... and for us as well, we who are its defenders... but especially for us. We agress nobody, we simply have a few forums in the internet to discuss. Leave us alone, really.

 

 

[Blitzen]

That being said ,it must be one of the longest Betas ever...when will it go into wide trouble free release? Before of with Dieppe?

 

[Dagwoodyt]

Given two years and counting, bug(s) causing VR crashes may never be identified and resolved. Projects would have to go forward regardless. Last I heard was that trueSKY was "90%" finished and Speedtree 8/9 still in internal "alpha" testing. Perhaps I've missed some important update news  though.

[343KKT_Kintaro]

Dagwoodyt, everybody knows the above. Now please, if you have nothing constructive to say about this game (or at least something that is not ill-will loaded) then please simply say nothing. Wanna say something? wanna open a new thread? Wanna remember once more to the community that there are as-yet unresolved problems in this game? Sure, no problem, please do... but what about doing it politely, with no ulterior motives? In other words, please you and a few others stop opening loaded threads. There are too much of them around here, and for too many years now.

 

"When Jason was here, he'd tell me I should just vaporize the naysayers permanently" (Buzzsaw, October the 25th, 2023)

 

Buzzsaw stated this two or three years after I've been already called "a self-appointed moderator". Thus I'm not a self-appointed mod and there's a real problem with some people in this forum. And the problem will keep going as long as the moderators allow your sarcasms and nastiness in this forum. Normally enough should be enough but... oh you lucky you...

 

 

[354thFG_Leifr]

Oh, you guys still hanging around here?

Are we still waiting for the VR-masses to save Cliffs, or is it the B17 now?

 

Still waiting on the Visual Update, Speedtree and Truesky... I'll believe them when I see it downloading!

[343KKT_Kintaro]

5 hours ago, 86th_Leifr said:

Oh, you guys still hanging around here?

 

 

Yeah, sure... surprised Leifr?  aren't we at the "Cliffs of Dover" forum on the il2sturmovik.com website?

 

 

5 hours ago, 86th_Leifr said:

Are we still waiting for the VR-masses to save Cliffs, or is it the B17 now?

 

 

Sure we are, aren't you? Nor Dagwoodyt? So, if "yes, still waiting", then what has to do "waiting" with opening useless threads... other than harassing those who still are waiting? 'cause, ye'know Leifr, if the answer to your question is "no, no longer waiting", then simply go on your way and leave us alone... very simple indeed, isn't it?

 

 

 

5 hours ago, 86th_Leifr said:

Still waiting on the Visual Update, Speedtree and Truesky... I'll believe them when I see it downloading!

 

 

Me too! This is why it's pointless to open this kind of thread, other than putting pressure on others... for nothing (well... in fact not exactly for nothing... we already know for what... don't we Dagwoody?).

 

 

 

 

 

[354thFG_Leifr]

I have a bridge to sell you, if you're interested, Kintaro.

Edited March 2, 2024 by 86th_Leifr

[343KKT_Kintaro]

Ok, Leifr, have a nice day, or night, wherever you are in the world. Dagwoodyt opened this thread and I said what I think about it.

 

 

[Koziolek]

On 3/2/2024 at 6:13 PM, 86th_Leifr said:

I have a bridge to sell you, if you're interested, Kintaro.

Might be a difficult sell. He probably owns several now ?

[Bussard_x]

TFS should consider a download with the Visual Update, Speedtree and Truesky if the VR seems to be a bridge too far. I am not into VR but I dare to say that Super Ultrawide 5120x1440 with 240Hz is a more impressive flight sim experience. This gives a nice wide view with all the flight controls visible. As already mentioned I do not have a VR-set but I already know that it will annoy me in a 30 minute during mission. I realise that for others the VR is a must have and TFS want to deliver the whole set including VR.  

[Dagwoodyt]

4 hours ago, Bussard_x said:

TFS should consider a download with the Visual Update, Speedtree and Truesky if the VR seems to be a bridge too far. I am not into VR but I dare to say that Super Ultrawide 5120x1440 with 240Hz is a more impressive flight sim experience. This gives a nice wide view with all the flight controls visible. As already mentioned I do not have a VR-set but I already know that it will annoy me in a 30 minute during mission. I realise that for others the VR is a must have and TFS want to deliver the whole set including VR.  

You may well see your wish granted, eventually. I cannot imagine the Team ever acknowledging VR to have vanquished them so perhaps a never ending "private" beta with the VR edition always just beyond the next horizon.

[Gunfreak]

5 hours ago, Bussard_x said:

TFS should consider a download with the Visual Update, Speedtree and Truesky if the VR seems to be a bridge too far. I am not into VR but I dare to say that Super Ultrawide 5120x1440 with 240Hz is a more impressive flight sim experience. This gives a nice wide view with all the flight controls visible. As already mentioned I do not have a VR-set but I already know that it will annoy me in a 30 minute during mission. I realise that for others the VR is a must have and TFS want to deliver the whole set including VR.  

Perfectly fine to not not care about VR. But flat gaming, no matter the size of the screens, the resolution or framerate will be "more impressive flight sim experience "

It's like saying watching lions on IMAX is more impressive then standing 10 meters from real wild lions in Africa.

[Dagwoodyt]

Nothing to be gained from challenging someone who declares superiority of a super duper monitor over VR. Said super duper monitor may well get TFS support long before we see a TFS VR release.

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

10 hours ago, Bussard_x said:

. I am not into VR but I dare to say that Super Ultrawide 5120x1440 with 240Hz is a more impressive flight sim experience. This gives a nice wide view with all the flight controls visible. As already mentioned I do not have a VR-set but I already know that it will annoy me in a 30 minute during mission. 

? Ridiculous take. How can you judge or prioritize VR if you dont have it? And no flat screen will ever be as immersive as 3D + being inside the game.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

VR is very nice, but way too expensive investment, if wanting the best experience aka no compromises in image quality, FPS etc. You can settle for less, but for me that is not enough. Maybe one day I get rich and can enjoy VR in it's full glory?

Edited March 18, 2024 by LLv34_Flanker

[Aapje]

Well, with a flat screen you are already compromising when it comes to depth, ability to look around you, etc. I always think that its a bit silly to declare that you accept no compromises, when you use something that is inherently compromised. There is a reason why face tracking is so often used for flight simming. That is essentially a hack to reduce the major mismatch between real flying where you can and need to look around you, and the inability to have flat screens all around you. The compromises of the flat screen are more of an issue for this genre than for most other genres.

 

My question to you is whether you are actually using the least compromised flat screen solution, which means that you have a 4090 and 4 of the biggest screens that the 4090 will run, with those monitors arranged around you. For example, one monitor to the left, one center, one right and one above the middle monitor so you can look up.

 

That is still a compromised solution, but unless you have that, you do in fact accept a more compromised solution than is possible due to the costs and other downsides. So I'm quite confident that you in fact, "settle for less."

 

The real question is, whether the compromises for a certain price point are more acceptable to you for the flat screen than for VR. And it's perfectly fair that at a lower cost, you prefer the flat screen experience over the VR experience. Or for you to prefer the flat compromises over the VR compromises. But I don't think that "I want no compromises" is at all an option.

 

Anyway, the quality/price for VR will keep improving, so it will become more accessible and better over time.

Edited March 18, 2024 by Aapje

[BOO]

5 minutes ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

S!

 

VR is very nice, but way too expensive investment if wanting the best experience aka no compromises in Image quality, FPS etc. You can settle for less, but for me that is not enough. Maybe one day I get rich and can enjoy VR in it's flla glory?

Absolutely plus 1.  I tried it some time back briefly with a Rift and on a system that really was scaping the 3D barrel so, whilst not ideal, I found the whole experience rather too clunky for the benefits. I know things have moved on but it all still seems somewhat faffy. Regardless,  I think my 5600x/3080 current system is about mid point these days and I wouldnt consider it for using VR it in any titles as it barely runs sim titles now at 1080P on the image quality settings I consider minimal. An upgrade is simply not an option. 

 

I have no idea what proportion of simmers use VR in comparision to screens or if that number is increasing at a noticable rate year on year. I just know I wont be one of them any time soon (at least not in simming). Gong back to Gunfreaks analogy with the Lions, Safaris were traditionally for the ultra rich and/or uber keen  and the rest of us were content with watching Life on Earth. Many of us are still happy with doing that given the choices we have. Horses for courses and each to their own etc.

 

I get the arguments for and against releasing the VU without VR but thats a judgement call from TFS and protests wont change that stance. Personally, I do not see the adavantage in delaying the whole for a part, especially at this point where there is nothing imminent from the competition to take away any thunder. But I can also see the reasoning for a big show of everthing given how long its been in gestation, if its close to finishing.

 

Ultimately, my personal experiences of the past year and the wider events in the world over the past 2 years have reminded me that some things are simply are not worth getting ones knickers in a twist about. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mysticpuma]

We are nearly a quarter of the way through 2024 with 'just' 3/4 left to go. 

It is unlikely the VU/TS and ST updates will launch before December, and December is the date VR comes to everyone's computer (as per the TFS announcement). 

 

I honestly don't see them releasing the parts separately as if there were issues with the VU/TS and ST they would likely then be tied up bug fixing those parts and again VR gets delayed. 

 

They have mentioned they haven't incorporated the latest Speedtree into the beta so that still has to be tested, Truesky (as I understand it) is still waiting for a few more fixes/updates but the Visual Update is effectively incorporated which may need some more tweaks. 

 

There is a lot to do in 9 months so I can't see any reason for them to release parts, so the expectation is, this will be a one drop update. 

 

Lots to be done but hopefully December finally sees it released. 

[343KKT_Kintaro]

26 minutes ago, BOO said:

I tried it some time back briefly with a Rift and on a system that really was scaping the 3D barrel so, whilst not ideal, I found the whole experience rather too clunky for the benefits.

 

 

Dear Boo, the Rift is completely obsolete. In fact the whole line of Oculus headsets is. "Meta Quest" is now their new line of products and the Meta Quest 3 was just released a few months ago. A friend of mine is having a blast with it (not a simmer though). At any rate, my personal opinion is that VR is a very nive improvement in the history of simulation, 'cause much more immersive, and I'm sure you'll enjoy it once you use a more modern headset. I recently purchased a second-hand Reverb G2 and the experience in Great Battles really is enjoyable, far superior to what I got when I tried the Rifts and Quests of Oculus a few years ago. Nevertheless, the G2 is obsolete too, so I'm confident with future headsets and flight sims being compatible with clickable cockpits and hand/finger tracking. This would be the ultimate simulated experience on board our virtual aircraft.

 

 

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

@Aapje I have always flown on flat screen and bought the best I could afford and how much space I have. So it means tracker and a curved screen with a system able to run stuff on high detail. Yes, a compromise if you want to say so. But until I can go "all in" on a VR system I am fully content making this compromise, as I play other games too than just flight sims.

 

So to sum it up. If I ever get the chance to go VR then there will be no compromises made. It is a step to a new domain which I have grown to see as next step in immersion and experiencing titles. Now I am unfortunately stuck with a compromise? 

 

EDIT: Experience with VR briefky only on Pimax 5K and Varjo Aero.

Edited March 18, 2024 by LLv34_Flanker

[BOO]

Just now, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

 

 

Dear Boo, the Rift is completely obsolete. In fact the whole line of Oculus headsets is. "Meta Quest" is now their new line of products and the Meta Quest 3 was just released a few months ago. A friend of mine is having a blast with it (not a simmer though). At any rate, my personal opinion is that VR is a very nive improvement in the history of simulation, 'cause much more immersive, and I'm sure you'll enjoy it once you use a more modern headset. I recently purchased a second-hand Reverb G2 and the experience in Great Battles really is enjoyable, far superior to what I got when I tried the Rifts and Quests of Oculus a few years ago. Nevertheless, the G2 is obsolete too, so I'm confident with future headsets and flight sims being compatible with clickable cockpits and hand/finger tracking. This would be the ultimate simulated experience on board our virtual aircraft.

 

 

I did say "some time back" :-). I think Kuban was the latest and greatest at the time.  I get VR, I see how many like it. I get that is adds significantly to the simming genre. I also am thankful for early adopters who fund the drive forward for the rest of us.

 

For now though its all moot. I need to be aware of whats happening at home now at all times so VR is out for a good while yet for me.  I darent even use headphones currently. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[343KKT_Kintaro]

4 minutes ago, BOO said:

I did say "some time back" ?

 

 

Woops! sorry...

 

 

4 minutes ago, BOO said:

For now though its all moot.

 

 

Still needs to be improved, sure.

 

 

4 minutes ago, BOO said:

I need to be aware of whats happening at home now at all times so VR is out for a good while yet for me.  I darent even use headphones currently.

 

 

So sad to read that... Please Boo solve your problems and go back to flight sims very soon.

 

 

 

[Bussard_x]

11 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

Nothing to be gained from challenging someone who declares superiority of a super duper monitor over VR. Said super duper monitor may well get TFS support long before we see a TFS VR release.

 

The sim does not natively support 5120x1440, meaning that the sides are stretched out. Buzzsaw could not guarantee that this will be fixed with the visual update, probably not he mentioned. So not 100% ideal but also not a show stopper. In 4k aircraft are also stretched out at the sides. BoX and DCS also have this compromise in Super Ultrawide. As long as there is no VR available for Cliffs I do not have to consider purchase of VR. But I already get annoyed by headphones in a half an hour mission, so purchase of VR for me will be very risky. So it is all about compromizes it seems.     

 

 

 

 

[Aapje]

2 hours ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

so I'm confident with future headsets and flight sims being compatible with clickable cockpits and hand/finger tracking. This would be the ultimate simulated experience on board our virtual aircraft.

 

You are forgetting motion platforms. Once VR has truly becomes affordable, I see motion platforms as the next thing to get for the people who are looking for another major step towards full immersion (and have the money).

[Dagwoodyt]

Discussions of the merits of VR vs flatscreen CFS simming remain irrelevant for this title. The VR effort could get silently shelved in favor of 2D. I've been using VR for GB for over six years now. If ST still has not made it into the beta and TS is yet unfinished, how can Dieppe and VR come to market in 2024? Given an effort staffed by part time volunteers, seems future projects under the CloD banner would be more practical for 2D than VR. So, yes, super ultra whatever dimension monitor support would probably be a much easier lift.

[343KKT_Kintaro]

43 minutes ago, Aapje said:

 

You are forgetting motion platforms. Once VR has truly becomes affordable, I see motion platforms as the next thing to get for the people who are looking for another major step towards full immersion (and have the money).

 

 

Well... I do take motion platforms into account inasmuch as I know they do exist... but I'm not interested in them. In my opinion, the visual aspect of real flight is fantastically represented by the VR technology. The dynamic aspect, this is, the movement you feel when sitting in a real aircraft, is poorly simulated with whatever technology we have now. A plane makes loops, my friend... and Immelmanns... and plenty of this kind of thingies you simply cannot properly emulate at home at this stage of technological advances in the field of hydraulic/pneumatic platforms.

 

 

[Aapje]

@343KKT_Kintaro

 

A headset actually doesn't fully represent the visual aspect. For example, current headsets only have single focus point. So at any distance but the fixed focal distance, things are out of focus and you get blurriness and eyestrain. It is actually one of the weaknesses of the Pimax Crystal for simming that the focal distance is only 1 meter.

 

The dynamic range of current headsets and the color gamut are also way lower than reality. So current headsets do not in fact properly emulate the visuals of reality, just like motion platforms can indeed not properly emulate motion like in reality.

 

But for me the question is not how much VR and motion platforms are lacking, but what they are bringing to the table. A lot of people report a major boost in immersion, which makes sense, because your body is going to be much less conflicted with what you see and you feel much better what the plane is doing, instead of having to guess based on visual cues. Since people commonly report a similar kind of boost to how much fun simming is with a motion platform as gets reported for VR, it may be a good next step (perhaps for me in 10+ years as well).

 

Note that optimizing these platforms to simulate motion means that the platform is actually not going to mimic the real movements. It's much more complex than that:

 

 

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

Some VR users say that having even a slightly moving platform can help with the motion sickness while using VR. Like one for car sims. You register movement and are not only fooled to it by VR. So might be a good idea having at least 4 way movement?

[Gunfreak]

It's very hard to explaine to someone who hasn't tried. Just what it feels like flying the F-14 in DCS in VR, with a force feedback stick and simshaker pad. Short of having a 3 or 6 dof flight rig. It's insane how much immersion you get. I'm looking around, I'm shaking at the edge of stall. I'm fighting the stick. 

Insane cool. I do hope Clod gets simshaker pad support at some time. Because Cold already has fantastic FFB effects (much better on average than DCS, That really only have less than a handful of planes with good FFB effects)

[343KKT_Kintaro]

@Aapje @LLv34_Flanker : I'm certainly not contemptuous of the tool itself. Sure a platform, depending on the product (and the above video shows a unique prototype) can be very impressive, but in my opinion the proportion of simmers possessing a hydraulically moving platform, even a simple one that is not completely enclosed, will permanently remain very low. It's a financial matter. Still now I think we can say that PC flight simulators are intended to the average consumer (PC flight sims usually are sold between 50 and 100 US dollars).

 

@Gunfreak simshaker pad? hummmmm... ok, maybe I'll give it a try someday...

 

 

[Gunfreak]

50 minutes ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

@Aapje @LLv34_Flanker : I'm certainly not contemptuous of the tool itself. Sure a platform, depending on the product (and the above video shows a unique prototype) can be very impressive, but in my opinion the proportion of simmers possessing a hydraulically moving platform, even a simple one that is not completely enclosed, will permanently remain very low. It's a financial matter. Still now I think we can say that PC flight simulators are intended to the average consumer (PC flight sims usually are sold between 50 and 100 US dollars).

 

@Gunfreak simshaker pad? hummmmm... ok, maybe I'll give it a try someday...

 

 

Haptic pad is an awesome thing.

Cost less than a cheap vr headset.

Just put it in any chair you are using.

It gives you input for everything from feeling the plane is about to stall. To dropping bombs. 

It's saved my ass several times when flying helicopters. As it starts shaking like crazy when about to go into VRS so I have time to take action before hitting the ground. 

And now u can't fly without it as I'm so used to feeling the bump as I drop bombs, be it a 2000lb laster guided bomb from an F16 or a 250lb bomb from a P51. If I don't have my pad I don't feel the bump and I get paranoid about if the bomb dropped or not.

 

And if you fly in a helicopter in DC with AI gunners firing off mini guns. It gives a very nice ass massage.

[No.54_Reddog]

At the end of the day, based on what has been made public in the way of info, it's not like TF have a choice between the VU now or the VU+VR later, the VU isn't finished or ready yet despite it originally being slated for release...some time ago.

 

TF moved from being simply incapable and inept to being something worse when they started trying to hype modules they clearly aren't ever going to deliver.

[343KKT_Kintaro]

Wow! @Gunfreak, you definitely are persuasive now... I'll really think about that purchase.

 

Now, as Reddog clearly gave us to understand, please gentlemen let's stay on topic... for this thread needs to reach 150 posts (minimum), all of them aiming to Dagwoodyt's  original purpose : all of us leading to produce a clear statement of clarification about the guilty, insolent and unbearable delays of TFS. Our determination in reaching such goal will be unbreakable.

 

I can't afford a genuine authentic SIMONA so after aquiring a nice simshaker pad, I'll seriously consider buying one more bridge. Yep, sure I will, I have so many friends here, all of them ready to sell the most juicy and brand new bridges one can find out there...

 

 

[DD_Arthur]

15 minutes ago, No.54_Reddog said:

At the end of the day, based on what has been made public in the way of info, it's not like TF have a choice between the VU now or the VU+VR later, the VU isn't finished or ready yet despite it originally being slated for release...some time ago.

 

TF moved from being simply incapable and inept to being something worse when they started trying to hype modules they clearly aren't ever going to deliver.

 

Slow going obviously…..