VPforce Rhino - Modern FFB Joystick

[Youtch]

1 hour ago, Varibraun said:

It only required drilling 2 new holes to align with the DoFR center rail and a small piece of rubber underneath the front

You drilled the holes in the Monster Tech plate or in the Dof Rail?

 

Which cut off seat do you have?

 

Many thanks for your answer!

[Varibraun]

 

1 hour ago, Youtch said:

You drilled the holes in the Monster Tech plate or in the Dof Rail?

 

 

In the plate, I was able to use a hand drill with the drill bit designed for metal.

 

1 hour ago, Youtch said:

Which cut off seat do you have?

 

See Amazon link below - I am 6'2" 210 lbs and it has been a good seat for me and slides nicely for adjustment, but there are definitely more high end options out there.  A few things I learned along the way regarding this seat:

 

1.  It doesn't fit directly on the DoFR P/H3 frame with the provided bolts, but if you downsize the bolt diameter and use a couple of washers, it attaches securely with a bit of "tilt" on the bolts without any additional drilling or hardware.  I think if you search on Discord for Openwheeler (where I found it) someone even gives the bolt size to purchase.

 

2.  The adjustment handle will make contact with the Rhino base, but it still latches fine for adjustment so I haven't made any modification.  However, I think you could cut off approx 1/2" from the handle and it would clear the base completely.

 

3.  The Rhino base pulley covers are necessary to get the base into the seat notch without rubbing.  You can see this when I am able to get some photos. I ordered mine from QR4Rigs.com (you can even have a Kangaroo Roundel on it - which I definitely would have ordered if I had that accent! 😎) 

 

https://qr4rigs.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=45_30&products_id=218

SimFab Flight Simulator Seat With Seat Base Cut Out For Fighter Stick Or Helicopter Collective, black

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B092LMYYYM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

Finally, the related 4 point harness isn't really necessary, but I will say it helps further the immersion factor:

 

 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07V1VSV52/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1

 

[Youtch]

Many thanks @Varibraun, very usefull advices, as always!

 

Unfortunately SimFab is not easy to get in Europe

 

I am still figuring out if I can live without a cutoff seat. Looking currently at Next Level Racing ERS3, but now I see that I might have a problem with the handle to move seat position as well.

 

My current desk seat has no cutoff, I am using Rhino inverted (red button behind the stick, hence mor difficult to access but still doable) with QR4Rigs covers as well, and I am still 1,5cm away from the seat.

 

I curious to know as well what is the height of your seat above the platform main rail.

 

y.

Edited December 10, 2024 by Youtch

[Varibraun]

7 hours ago, Youtch said:

I curious to know as well what is the height of your seat above the platform main rail.

 

It is approximately 18.5 cm (not including the JetPad on top) at the front.  Photos in spoiler with the mount on the rail:

 

Spoiler

VPFORCE MONSTERTECH MOUNT WITH TWO NEW HOLES DRILLED TO MATCH DOFR CENTER RAIL (RUBBER IS INSTALLED UNDER THE FRONT OF THE MOUNT WHICH KEEPS IT TIGHT WITH ONLY 2 SCREWS AND STOPS ANY VIBRATION/RATTLE):

 

 

RUBBER UNDER THE FRONT:

 

SEAT POSITION INCLUDING HANDLE AND COVERS IN CUTOUT:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2024 by Varibraun

[Youtch]

Many thanks for the pics!

 

For what i see, you are just a couple of cm inside the cutoff seat, since the hole is not wide enough to accomodate the Rhino base.

 

May I ask what are you using the buttkicker for if you already have ffb stick and simshaker seat?

 

Are you using tensioners as well for the seat belt? I saw people putting an elastic tied to the frame to pull the belt against the body when deccelerating or going negative G.

 

Many thanks again,

Y.

[Varibraun]

2 hours ago, Youtch said:

For what i see, you are just a couple of cm inside the cutoff seat, since the hole is not wide enough to accomodate the Rhino base.

 

Sorry for the small photos (limited by the file upload size), so it is hard to see, but because of the Rhino reverse mounting with the pulley/cover toward the seat, I actually have it approximately 5-6cm into the cutout.  Also, I can pull forward to get a few more cms into the cutout, but I feel a little to close to my rudder pedals, so that 5-6cm is the most comfortable for me. 

 

Bottom line - The cutout definitely makes a difference for me, and I think I would have to use an extension if I didn't have the cutout in this seat.  (Because of shipping costs, I actually ordered smallest Rhino extension from QR4Rigs, 50x80, as a backup if the covers didn't work to allow me to get it into the cutout).  

 

2 hours ago, Youtch said:

May I ask what are you using the buttkicker for if you already have ffb stick and simshaker seat?

 

I already owned 2 Buttkickers (the other one is mounted under my rudder pedal plate) and the JetPad prior to the DoFR and Rhino so it made sense to use them at no extra expense.  That said, they do provide additional haptics throughout the entire frame that carries through the throttle, stick and the rudder pedals, so I do feel they add to the entire experience beyond the FFB and seat haptics.

 

2 hours ago, Youtch said:

Are you using tensioners as well for the seat belt? I saw people putting an elastic tied to the frame to pull the belt against the body when deccelerating or going negative G.

 

I have seen that too, but at least to this point, I haven't tried it.  

Edited December 11, 2024 by Varibraun

[Youtch]

16 minutes ago, Varibraun said:

That said, they do provide additional haptics throughout the entire frame that carries through the throttle, stick and the rudder pedals, so I do feel they add to the entire experience beyond the FFB and seat haptics.

but you do not feel it that much through the seat correct? I feel that the Seat is somehow shielded for the vibration on the frame.

It is a pity as I think the buttkicker is more adapted to some vibration than the Simshaker, such as weapons release or touchdown, but I have hard time to make it feel through the seat.

[Varibraun]

24 minutes ago, Youtch said:

but you do not feel it that much through the seat correct? I feel that the Seat is somehow shielded for the vibration on the frame.

 

Yes, you are correct, likely due to the "insulation" of the seat cushion to the vibration.  I know the Simshaker JetPad is critical for me (more than the motion), but I will turn off the JetPad on my next flight to double check vs. just the Buttkickers and will post to confirm.

Edited December 11, 2024 by Varibraun

[Youtch]

7 hours ago, Varibraun said:

know the Simshaker JetPad is critical for me (more than the motion),

I would never have guessed that somebody would rather choose to fly with the jetpad than with the motion platform.

[dgiatr]

2 hours ago, Youtch said:

I would never have guessed that somebody would rather choose to fly with the jetpad than with the motion platform.

I dare to say that vibrations could be the second more immerive effect-feeling  after Vr. You cannot fly without it if you have already get used to.

[Varibraun]

13 hours ago, Varibraun said:

I will turn off the JetPad on my next flight to double check vs. just the Buttkickers and will post to confirm.

 

Confirmed...the JetPad with Simshaker is providing much more haptic effect than the Buttkicker on the frame through the seat.

 

6 hours ago, Youtch said:

I would never have guessed that somebody would rather choose to fly with the jetpad than with the motion platform.

 

Don't get me wrong, I am very happy to have both, but as @dgiatr referenced above, I find getting feedback from the vibrations more immersive than the motion.  For me, I would say that the feel of the aircraft is more important than the feel of flight motion - maybe that is because VR is already tricking my brain into having a motion feeling just by itself and the motion platform simply enhances/confirms it to the rest of the body. 

 

FWIW, now that I have the Rhino FFB in the mix, I would rank the "immersion for the price" as follows:

 

1.  VR

2.  Haptic shake (Jetpad/transducers)

3.  FFB

4.  Motion

[Panzerlang]

2 hours ago, Varibraun said:

 

Confirmed...the JetPad with Simshaker is providing much more haptic effect than the Buttkicker on the frame through the seat.

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I am very happy to have both, but as @dgiatr referenced above, I find getting feedback from the vibrations more immersive than the motion.  For me, I would say that the feel of the aircraft is more important than the feel of flight motion - maybe that is because VR is already tricking my brain into having a motion feeling just by itself and the motion platform simply enhances/confirms it to the rest of the body. 

 

FWIW, now that I have the Rhino FFB in the mix, I would rank the "immersion for the price" as follows:

 

1.  VR

2.  Haptic shake (Jetpad/transducers)

3.  FFB

4.  Motion

How about if you disregard price?

[Youtch]

7 hours ago, Varibraun said:

 

Confirmed...the JetPad with Simshaker is providing much more haptic effect than the Buttkicker on the frame through the seat.

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I am very happy to have both, but as @dgiatr referenced above, I find getting feedback from the vibrations more immersive than the motion.  For me, I would say that the feel of the aircraft is more important than the feel of flight motion - maybe that is because VR is already tricking my brain into having a motion feeling just by itself and the motion platform simply enhances/confirms it to the rest of the body. 

 

FWIW, now that I have the Rhino FFB in the mix, I would rank the "immersion for the price" as follows:

 

1.  VR

2.  Haptic shake (Jetpad/transducers)

3.  FFB

4.  Motion

This put motion at the bottom of everything, which for me came unexpected. Are you using for motion Rate or Angle?

[Panzerlang]

This is what made me ambivalent about motion. Two LFEs give a hell of a lot of immersion.

[dgiatr]

4 hours ago, Youtch said:

This put motion at the bottom of everything, which for me came unexpected. Are you using for motion Rate or Angle?

Angle.....rate doesn't work for me. I use roll and pitch rate at my diy pneumatic g-seat to control the left - right side air bags though.

Edited December 12, 2024 by dgiatr

[Varibraun]

3 hours ago, Youtch said:

This put motion at the bottom of everything, which for me came unexpected. Are you using for motion Rate or Angle?

 

Yes, I think we feel differently about this, but realize I wouldn't want to give up any of the 4 now having had all working in relative harmony for about 4 months.  I am also using Angle and have only had time to get everything set up in GB.  I hope to have some time over the next few months to get things set up in DCS and Elite Dangerous (and haven't done any racing or roller coasters at this point).

 

8 hours ago, Panzerlang said:

How about if you disregard price?

 

I am certain I am influenced by the fact that you can get #1 - #3 (VR, Haptic, FFB) for the price of #4 (Motion).  That said, I still think motion is last on my immersion list aside from price.  Haptic and FFB are very close, because they both provide that "feel" of the aircraft itself and the forces acting on it (speed, stall, G force, flaps, gear, damage, etc) which is why I find them more important than the simple motion of flight.  That said, don't get me wrong, the DofR motion rig with SRS software still adds a lot of further reinforcement for this "feel" including the aircraft with those same times (for example from my flight last night - FEELING your bailout, including the opening of the parachute - not a subtle jerk either!).  So, if the budget allows, I do recommend motion for anyone seeking as much immersion as possible in our hobby.

[Youtch]

I remember a video where they were making a real fighter pilot test a dof reality P6, and the pilot was saying that angle feels very unatural and prefered much more rate. They were mostly talking about roll.

[Varibraun]

44 minutes ago, Youtch said:

I remember a video where they were making a real fighter pilot test a dof reality P6, and the pilot was saying that angle feels very unatural and prefered much more rate. They were mostly talking about roll.

 

Yes, I remember, it was an old F-18 guy on Mark's GYGO channel (great resource for all of this).  I thought to give it a try, but like @dgiatr I wasn't able to get Rate to work in IL-2 GB SRS.  I didn't spend much time on it though, so very possible I was missing something.  I did have a friend with a PPL over a few weeks ago and on his first try in the P-51 he said it felt realistic to him (with his quick caveat that he had never piloted a Warbird).  It would take someone like @SCG_motoadve who flies at least a somewhat similar prop aircraft IRL to really know how close it comes.  Personally, I spent time flying back seat Aerial Observer in the OV-10, but that was several decades ago so probably not recent enough for me to really know...lol!

 

*We should probably move this worthwhile discussion over to the Motion thread since we have moved on from the Rhino mount.  

[Youtch]

On 11/18/2024 at 1:16 AM, Varibraun said:

 

Thank you for finding this.  I just tried "Spring Dynamics" with the stock setting and was definitely feeling it in the P-51.  Agreed, nothing huge, but when approaching 400 mph I had no question it was working for me (100% on the Spring Global&Effects, with 50% on the pot knob, Adaptive Recentering Active).  See below: 

 

 

 

In the Settings inside IL2, Input Devices, for what is your configuration for Feedback power and shaking?

[Varibraun]

 

1 hour ago, Youtch said:

In the Settings inside IL2, Input Devices, for what is your configuration for Feedback power and shaking?

 

I will double check in game later to be certain, but below is from the Rhino Manual (pp 103 & 91) and since I am using TelemFFB, I am pretty sure this is how I have mine set.

 

[Varibraun]

22 hours ago, Youtch said:

In the Settings inside IL2, Input Devices, for what is your configuration for Feedback power and shaking?

 

Confirmed that the Rhino manual settings above are what I am currently using.

[Youtch]

I have been finally spending the time to configure properly FFB at least for Bf109, Fw190 and Hurricane and i really love it.

 

I put some curves on Spring Dynamics and mapping pring and it works very well.

 

It is exactly how i was dreaming it would be.

 

However I ran a couple of times into an issue, with the Rhino shutting down without any pre-warninf, making the distinctive sound as if i would have pressed the red button.

 

I would then loose all control, and be able to fix it only by pressing the button and turning it on again, and all would work like nothing would have happened (except my plane usually crashing to the ground not long after).

 

Has anything similar ever happened to you?

Edited December 13, 2024 by Youtch

[dgiatr]

1 hour ago, Youtch said:

I have been finally spending the time to configure properly FFB at least for Bf109, Fw190 and Hurricane and i really love it.

 

I put some curves on Spring Dynamics and mapping pring and it works very well.

 

It is exactly how i was dreaming it would be.

 

However I ran a couple of times into an issue, with the Rhino shutting down without any pre-warninf, making the distinctive sound as if i would have pressed the red button.

 

I would then loose all control, and be able to fix it only by pressing the button and turning it on again, and all would work like nothing would have happened (except my plane usually crashing to the ground not long after).

 

Has anything similar ever happened to you?

It happened to me once.

[Varibraun]

9 hours ago, Youtch said:

Has anything similar ever happened to you?

 Not to date

[hsthhsth]

Never had this on my Rhino. Did you check that the Power Management is set to off in Device Manager for your USB devices and the USB selective suspend setting in the Advanced Power Settings has been disabled? Because I hear the beep when the usb connects/disconnects.

[Youtch]

I hear the beep when I start the computer, when I manually press the button, as normal.

 

What is not normal is the Rhino disconnecting in the middle of the game.

[dgiatr]

45 minutes ago, Youtch said:

I hear the beep when I start the computer, when I manually press the button, as normal.

 

What is not normal is the Rhino disconnecting in the middle of the game.

Unwanted disconnections could happen if your motor cables don't have wire end ferrules https://www.amazon.de/dp/B0BXL6Q455

or probably quite loose?

While building my diy kit I paid special attention to this point and instead of buying wire end ferrules I poured enough soldering glou at the end of the motor wires to make big robust connectors to push them into the correspondant pcb socket.

I know your ffb base isn't a diy kit but you could probably look inside to check that point.

Another point to check would be your usb connection.. is it powered or not?

Or your power supply , is it capable to withstand the extra current your rhino base could ask every minute?

Edited December 15, 2024 by dgiatr

[Dagwoodyt]

On 12/13/2024 at 9:39 AM, Youtch said:

However I ran a couple of times into an issue, with the Rhino shutting down without any pre-warninf, making the distinctive sound as if i would have pressed the red button.

 

I would then loose all control, and be able to fix it only by pressing the button and turning it on again, and all would work like nothing would have happened (except my plane usually crashing to the ground not long after).

 

Has anything similar ever happened to you?

This happens occasionally on my OG Rhino. All Rhino my Rhino firmware/software is up to date.

[Youtch]

1 hour ago, dgiatr said:

Unwanted disconnections could happen if your motor cables don't have wire end ferrules https://www.amazon.de/dp/B0BXL6Q455

or probably quite loose?

While building my diy kit I paid special attention to this point and instead of buying wire end ferrules I poured enough soldering glou at the end of the motor wires to make big robust connectors to push them into the correspondant pcb socket.

I know your ffb base isn't a diy kit but you could probably look inside to check that point.

Another point to check would be your usb connection.. is it powered or not?

Or your power supply , is it capable to withstand the extra current your rhino base could ask every minute?

I will have to wait till it happens again. But my first impression was that it did not seem to be power related.

[Dagwoodyt]

4 hours ago, Youtch said:

I will have to wait till it happens again. But my first impression was that it did not seem to be power related.

ditto

[SCG_motoadve]

On 12/12/2024 at 9:59 AM, Varibraun said:

 

Yes, I remember, it was an old F-18 guy on Mark's GYGO channel (great resource for all of this).  I thought to give it a try, but like @dgiatr I wasn't able to get Rate to work in IL-2 GB SRS.  I didn't spend much time on it though, so very possible I was missing something.  I did have a friend with a PPL over a few weeks ago and on his first try in the P-51 he said it felt realistic to him (with his quick caveat that he had never piloted a Warbird).  It would take someone like @SCG_motoadve who flies at least a somewhat similar prop aircraft IRL to really know how close it comes.  Personally, I spent time flying back seat Aerial Observer in the OV-10, but that was several decades ago so probably not recent enough for me to really know...lol!

 

*We should probably move this worthwhile discussion over to the Motion thread since we have moved on from the Rhino mount.  

I looked into motion rigs, never tried one, saw many videos, on all of them the movement seemed too jerky , like if they were made for car racing and not airplanes, need to try one.

Something not mentioned that also adds immersion in VR is realistic replica controllers like the ones from Authentikit.

 

I had some controllers made by GVL44 that were a replica of the controllers on my real plane, which are same controllers you can find in many of the Russian planes in IL2, that added immersion to the simulation.

Soon I will start building a 109 throttle from Authentikit, excited for that one.

Edited December 17, 2024 by SCG_motoadve

[Aapje]

10 hours ago, SCG_motoadve said:

I looked into motion rigs, never tried one, saw many videos, on all of them the movement seemed too jerky , like if they were made for car racing and not airplanes, need to try one.

 

When people starting using the DOF Reality for flight simming they discovered the same and that's why they added new gearing to those rigs, so the motion can be much more smooth.

[BOO]

Posting here as this appears to be the "offical" VP thread in the forum. 

 

Having had no luck in getting the rhino to play nice with CloD, at 1000 hours, I asked for help this morning in the VP Discord. By 2000 hours, one of the main software devs had:

 

bought CloD

worked out the issue 

found a solution

updated the user manual with said solution 

 

Now that is, in my book, pretty much why choosing passionate "homebrew" manufacturers over big names is absolutely worth it though, even with that said I am totally blown away that a single voice asking for help to fix what is not currently a popular game got such a fast and comprehensive response. 

[dgiatr]

3 hours ago, BOO said:

Posting here as this appears to be the "offical" VP thread in the forum. 

 

Having had no luck in getting the rhino to play nice with CloD, at 1000 hours, I asked for help this morning in the VP Discord. By 2000 hours, one of the main software devs had:

 

bought CloD

worked out the issue 

found a solution

updated the user manual with said solution 

 

Now that is, in my book, pretty much why choosing passionate "homebrew" manufacturers over big names is absolutely worth it though, even with that said I am totally blown away that a single voice asking for help to fix what is not currently a popular game got such a fast and comprehensive response. 

Agree 👍  with you...vp force discord channel listens to people all the time and trying to solve any possible issue.

Devs constantly upgrade vp force configurator and telem ffb to meet the needs of different simulators. Very satisfied till now...

[BigC208]

Hello. I’m having a problem. Just installed my new Rhino. Works fine in DCS, MSFS

Problem is IL2GB. The rhino pitch and roll axis are not being recognized by IL2 in keysetup. I have the ffb telemetry effects working but can’t get Il2 to recognize the Rhino base. 
 

In windows it shows up under bluetooth and devices as Rhino FFB Joystick.

Since it’s working with the other simulators it must be IL2 GB specific.

Anyone had this before?  Solutions? Thanks.

 

Edit. Got it squared away. Had too many joysticks.

Edited January 17 by BigC208
Typo

[c19580]

I just got the email stating that my pre-order reservation was ready for purchase.

 

Trying to decide whether to “pull the trigger”

 

whats the general consensus on whether the VPForce is a significant upgrade from a good base like the VKB gunfighter? Any cons?

 

is it still considered that the VPForce is a better option than the Moza?

 

thanks

[BOO]

10 minutes ago, c19580 said:

I just got the email stating that my pre-order reservation was ready for purchase.

 

Trying to decide whether to “pull the trigger”

 

whats the general consensus on whether the VPForce is a significant upgrade from a good base like the VKB gunfighter? Any cons?

 

is it still considered that the VPForce is a better option than the Moza?

 

thanks

 

Yes its an upgrade especially for sims putting out full telemetry. Only cons are that there is signifacntly more to faff with and its BIG. 

 

Im a rhino owner so im biased but Ive been very impressed with the interaction from the owner and software writers. Same for the discord community. Cant comment on Moza.

[Dagwoodyt]

24 minutes ago, c19580 said:

I just got the email stating that my pre-order reservation was ready for purchase.

 

Trying to decide whether to “pull the trigger”

 

whats the general consensus on whether the VPForce is a significant upgrade from a good base like the VKB gunfighter? Any cons?

 

is it still considered that the VPForce is a better option than the Moza?

 

thanks

I have been pleased with the Rhino and its' software. I have the VKB MCUG and it works well with the Rhino adapter. For me the Rhino works with Il-2 GB, DCS and CloD. I've not used it with any other sims.

 

8 minutes ago, BOO said:

 

Yes its an upgrade especially for sims putting out full telemetry. Only cons are that there is signifacntly more to faff with and its BIG. 

 

Im a rhino owner so im biased but Ive been very impressed with the interaction from the owner and software writers. Same for the discord community. Cant comment on Moza.

Ditto.

[c19580]

22 minutes ago, BOO said:

 

Yes its an upgrade especially for sims putting out full telemetry. Only cons are that there is signifacntly more to faff with and its BIG. 

 

Im a rhino owner so im biased but Ive been very impressed with the interaction from the owner and software writers. Same for the discord community. Cant comment on Moza.

 

thanks!

 

how many tinkering hours would you estimate to get it working well?

 

is there a way to import profiles from others that may have already done a lot of the legwork?

 

I have a simfab simpit so will need to figure out how to mount it.

[Panzerlang]

26 minutes ago, c19580 said:

 

thanks!

 

how many tinkering hours would you estimate to get it working well?

 

is there a way to import profiles from others that may have already done a lot of the legwork?

 

I have a simfab simpit so will need to figure out how to mount it.

My FFBeast arrived Tuesday afternoon and I've spent approximately 15 hours with far less documentation than the VPForce gets, including a couple of hours on carpentry.

I think it's a QoL deal? Least noticeable in IL2 WW1, betterer in IL2 WW2 and pretty damned pukka in DCS. The caveat for me was always the overheat shut-down (Brunner piece of garbage). I think that might be ditto on the Moza. But these things, with their huge motors, no such issue. So, compared to a simple spring stick, and bearing in mind it might make you less 'competitive' in multiplayer, it's kind of an immersion no-brainer. Way more fun flying with FFB.