VPforce Rhino - Modern FFB Joystick

[Youtch]

2 hours ago, Aapje said:

But more seriously, a big issue with FFB is that the biggest advantage is in warbirds, but that is only a small niche within flight simming, which itself is already smaller than car simming

From the same channel where i took this video there is also an analysis of how it performs with DCS, the benefits for flying helicopters or early jets. 

 

So it covers from WWI till cold war, which is not bad and cover majority of the sim content released or about to be released.

 

True that fly-by-the-wire aircraft and spaceships would not ever need force feedback.

[Aapje]

True, helicopters as well. But that is also a very small niche. There are more warbirds than heli's in the DCS shop, and that is despite them having IL-2 as a competitor for wardbirds, but there not really being a competitor for combat heli's.

[Youtch]

Who is the implementation of Force Feedback in IL2?

 

Are there different effects per plane, or they are all the same?

 

I was impressed by the Mig29 vid with FFBeast

[Lusekofte]

I fly mostly choppers I had for years owned 3 different chopper hardware and still owns it. Vp force simulate all choppers it put the stick where you trim it in any trim system. 
for jets it do the same but beat most in accuracy and you get to have the resistance you yourself want. Meaning you can have as long extension you want or none at all. 
A stick suitable for all things and you can tweak it to your preferences. Only thing is price. But I rather have this than a pimax crystal. You can have this and a quest 3 and still it would be cheaper

[Varibraun]

On 3/26/2024 at 3:05 PM, Youtch said:

Who is the implementation of Force Feedback in IL2?

 

I found this lengthy video below where he is flying FC helpful in deciding to put my name on the reservation list (he has some other stress testing etc on his channel - I personally found his understated humor entertaining):

 

@Lusekofte impressions are what made me decide that I will pull the trigger to purchase it once I am offered the opportunity.

 

 

Edited March 28, 2024 by Varibraun

[Lusekofte]

17 minutes ago, Varibraun said:

trigger to purchase it once I am offered the opportunity.

It will be your best hardware purchase ever for this sim. I promise. 
Unless something else shows up. But at best it will be the same. But maybe cheaper. 
Brűnner got limitations and cost 1000€ more. It cannot be used with extension due to overheating. Note. This is quotes from a dialog I had in DCs forum with one that owns it. He could use it pretty much for everything but was cautious. 
VP force is high end, as soon as they realise that I think price will get up. 

Edited March 28, 2024 by Lusekofte

[Youtch]

What are the forces you feel with 20cm extension at 100%?

[Dagwoodyt]

I'm thinking I might need an extension shorter than 20cm for my VKB grip in order to maintain current distance from floor to top of grip.

[Youtch]

15 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

I'm thinking I might need an extension shorter than 20cm for my VKB grip in order to maintain current distance from floor to top of grip.

This regarding total height.

 

But what about the strength felt on the joystick with FFB + extension?

[102nd-YU-cmirko]

could be calculated with basic data available from the stick creators video  

also, keep in mind that there are different motors available

 

 

[102nd-YU-cmirko]

16 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

I'm thinking I might need an extension shorter than 20cm for my VKB grip in order to maintain current distance from floor to top of grip.

 

https://qr4rigs.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=59

 

 

[Varibraun]

Also, this guy is running a series of Rhino videos on his channel that includes deciding on the proper extension - if any.  However, I don't think he has posted yet where he is actually using the Rhino, but you can get an idea of how high it will sit due to the size of the base (also interesting about the maybe needing to order the motion limiter):

 

 

[Youtch]

A very interesting live about on the compatibility of FFB Rhino con DOF Reality motion platform:

https://youtu.be/OH6KuRSDyXo?t=1172

[cladclad]

On 3/26/2024 at 3:05 PM, Youtch said:

Who is the implementation of Force Feedback in IL2?

Are there different effects per plane, or they are all the same?

I was impressed by the Mig29 vid with FFBeast

Curious about this as well. Is the IL2 implementation good enough to where it feels different jumping from a 110 to a Spit? Or is it all the same and configurable via the software?  

[Broadway]

you can configure via the associated TelemFFB software if you take the Rhino (or self build Rhino) approach , so for example a plane with heavier calibre weapons can be set to have more gun feedback to the stick (not per gun type though , just overall for the plane) , etc etc 

 

 

[Youtch]

11 hours ago, Broadway said:

you can configure via the associated TelemFFB software if you take the Rhino (or self build Rhino) approach , so for example a plane with heavier calibre weapons can be set to have more gun feedback to the stick (not per gun type though , just overall for the plane) , etc etc 

 

 

So if a Bf109K4 is firing, it will be the same effect in the stick for machine gun and 30mm canon?

[SCG_motoadve]

What effects do we have in IL2?

Is there a engine rumble effect?

Hits , damage effects?

 

Today I re installed IL2 and tried my Rhino, effects are very weak in IL2, joystick has no resistance, no engine rumble, no damage hits effects, Stall and guns effects very weak.

Must be something on my setup, I am using Telem and also 100% effects in both IL2 FFB settings, should I turn those Off so Telem works better?

 

[Varibraun]

@SCG_motoadve - hopefully @Lusekofte, @Broadway or some of the others here with a Rhino can give some IL2 setup insight.  Also, if you don't mind sharing, I am very interested to hear your thoughts on the Rhino in DCS too since I think your IRL experience piloting a warbird gives a unique perspective on it and whether you think it worth the cost compared to your previous joystick?

[SCG_motoadve]

1 hour ago, Varibraun said:

@SCG_motoadve - hopefully @Lusekofte, @Broadway or some of the others here with a Rhino can give some IL2 setup insight.  Also, if you don't mind sharing, I am very interested to hear your thoughts on the Rhino in DCS too since I think your IRL experience piloting a warbird gives a unique perspective on it and whether you think it worth the cost compared to your previous joystick?

In DCS flying warbirds with the Rhino  its fantastic, and very realistic, the buffeting and stall shake are exactly as in real life, gear and flaps vibrations also like the real thing, controls getting stiffer also, although in the real plane gets more stiff than the Rhino , probably a limitation o the motor.

Absolutely worth it IMHO.

[Lusekofte]

2 hours ago, Varibraun said:

@SCG_motoadve - hopefully @Lusekofte, @Broadway or some of the others here with a Rhino can give some IL2 setup insight.  Also, if you don't mind sharing, I am very interested to hear your thoughts on the Rhino in DCS too since I think your IRL experience piloting a warbird gives a unique perspective on it and whether you think it worth the cost compared to your previous joystick?

I have no real life expirience with stick. Just some flights with yoke. 
but in IL2 you get it as you like it. Software is intuitive and let you decide just what you like. 
in runway with warbirds the stick is loose and the faster you go the harder the stick will be. 
it is very accurate. And excellent for choppers. There is some shared profiles in discord. I have only one and that is mine I like hard resistance and vp force own trim. It trim the stick and as such trim whatever you fly. Chopper profiles normally have hard gain on damper and little on spring. This will give you a stick staying put where you leave it. 
I have a reserve polish stick with real hydrolic dampers that work well for choppers. 
It is about the same for choppers but give no feedback for trim. 
VP force is in my opinion something one should consider before VR. It give immense realism and accuracy. And is a real piece of hardware
 

Edited May 9, 2024 by Lusekofte

[Broadway]

@Youtch, I’m afraid you are correct , it cannot differentiate each calibre , so it is very rough , easy on typhoon vs P51 but if you have dual like in spit etc you have to choose how strong you want it for full load out.  TBH  I ve dialed  it back the feedback on guns , I find it hard enough to hit without a strong kick on the stick.  I have gentle feedback on stick Buttkicker and the HF8 seat. 

[SR-F_Winger]

On 5/12/2024 at 1:48 PM, Broadway said:

@Youtch, I’m afraid you are correct , it cannot differentiate each calibre , so it is very rough , easy on typhoon vs P51 but if you have dual like in spit etc you have to choose how strong you want it for full load out.  TBH  I ve dialed  it back the feedback on guns , I find it hard enough to hit without a strong kick on the stick.  I have gentle feedback on stick Buttkicker and the HF8 seat. 

In DCS Bf109 K4 the rumble between firing the Cannon vs the machineguns is very well diffrentiated effects. Hopefully this will also work in IL2?

 

[102nd-YU-devill]

On 5/10/2024 at 3:34 AM, Lusekofte said:

I have no real life expirience with stick. Just some flights with yoke. 
but in IL2 you get it as you like it. Software is intuitive and let you decide just what you like. 
in runway with warbirds the stick is loose and the faster you go the harder the stick will be. 
it is very accurate. And excellent for choppers. There is some shared profiles in discord. I have only one and that is mine I like hard resistance and vp force own trim. It trim the stick and as such trim whatever you fly. Chopper profiles normally have hard gain on damper and little on spring. This will give you a stick staying put where you leave it. 
I have a reserve polish stick with real hydrolic dampers that work well for choppers. 
It is about the same for choppers but give no feedback for trim. 
VP force is in my opinion something one should consider before VR. It give immense realism and accuracy. And is a real piece of hardware
 

Hi,

you mention that the control becomes stiffer the faster you go, do you refer to the G-force setting in TelemFFB?

For me the only way to have a dynamic control stiffness is this option and it doesn't work through airspeed, but rather you have to pull Gs which I think is wrong.

The controls should stiffen up based on the dynamic pressure (i.e. airspeed).

Could you share your settings in telemFFB?

 

Or anyone else? Do you know if we can increase resistance by airspeed in IL2 for the Rhino? 

 

 

[SCG_motoadve]

7 hours ago, 102nd-YU-devill said:

Hi,

you mention that the control becomes stiffer the faster you go, do you refer to the G-force setting in TelemFFB?

For me the only way to have a dynamic control stiffness is this option and it doesn't work through airspeed, but rather you have to pull Gs which I think is wrong.

The controls should stiffen up based on the dynamic pressure (i.e. airspeed).

Could you share your settings in telemFFB?

 

Or anyone else? Do you know if we can increase resistance by airspeed in IL2 for the Rhino? 

 

 

Telem wont give you that feel, I wish it would though

Rhino software you need to change the curves.

 

 

[dgiatr]

14 minutes ago, SCG_motoadve said:

Telem wont give you that feel, I wish it would though

Rhino software you need to change the curves.

 

 

Does the telemetry from inside il2 could give you the feeling of stiffness vs speed?

[102nd-YU-devill]

4 hours ago, SCG_motoadve said:

Telem wont give you that feel, I wish it would though

Rhino software you need to change the curves.

 

 

 

This is for the spring effect right?

I dont really use it I prefer to have the stick just respond to external forces, but it does get a bit tricky to trim then.

 

4 hours ago, dgiatr said:

Does the telemetry from inside il2 could give you the feeling of stiffness vs speed?

IL2 seems to be able to tell telemFFB that the airplane is faster than 20kts since at that speed the elevator droop effect stops.
Other than that I don't know if we have airspeed as available input for telemFFB.

The most obvious fault of using g-forces to stiffen the stick is that they have nothing to do with roll, which becomes much harder at higher airspeeds for every plane (without powered controls).

[Dagwoodyt]

36 minutes ago, 102nd-YU-devill said:

The most obvious fault of using g-forces to stiffen the stick is that they have nothing to do with roll, which becomes much harder at higher airspeeds for every plane (without powered controls).

If you are saying that aileron stick forces provided via GB/Rhino do not stiffen as would be expected despite increasing airspeed, that is very disappointing.

[102nd-YU-devill]

2 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

If you are saying that aileron stick forces provided via GB/Rhino do not stiffen as would be expected despite increasing airspeed, that is very disappointing.

As far as I could set it up until now, airspeed does not affect controls until you pull Gs when it is evident on pitch but i cant say for roll. In any case roll is irrelevant in that case.

I do not know if it can be done, all discussion is on the damn discord and I am too old to be able to navigate that thing and find stuff.

[Youtch]

 

34 minutes ago, 102nd-YU-devill said:

all discussion is on the damn discord and I am too old to be able to navigate that thing and find stuff.

Glad to see that i am not the only one struggling with Discord. 😁

[Dagwoodyt]

I think Discord is unavoidable if planning entry into the ffb world. 🤔

[SYN_Mugue]

19 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

If you are saying that aileron stick forces provided via GB/Rhino do not stiffen as would be expected despite increasing airspeed, that is very disappointing.

As a person that has only ever played with a FFB stick. In my case Logitech G940 and a MsFFB. I can attest to the fact that the game does in fact support speed related forces on both the X and Y axis. Along with stall buffet and control surface flutter and battle damage... It also provides various shaking effects like gun rattling etc. And these effect have been tuned on a per plane basis, so not all planes fly with the same feel. The amplitude of these effects are controlled by the two sliders and a checkbox in the appropriate setting page in GB.
I can't really comment on the Rhinos software or its output from GB telemetry. But it's my understanding the the telemetry is used for adding additional effects not already output by the base game. (Someone please correct me if that is not true.)

But I've been reading about and drooling over these Rhinos for a long time and I don't think they should have any problem with this game. So expect that if you're having trouble it's a setting issue with GB and or the Rhino software.

The answer I'm sure is to be found on their discord. You're going to have to 'suck it up' and figure discord out, me thinks. It isn't really that complicated.

Edited September 20, 2024 by SYN_Mugue

[Dagwoodyt]

1 hour ago, SYN_Mugue said:

As a person that has only ever played with a FFB stick. In my case Logitech G940 and a MsFFB. I can attest to the fact that the game does in fact support speed related forces on both the X and Y axis. Along with stall buffet and control surface flutter and battle damage... It also provides various shaking effects like gun rattling etc. And these effect have been tuned on a per plane basis, so not all planes fly with the same feel. The amplitude of these effects are controlled by the two sliders and a checkbox in the appropriate setting page in GB.
I can't really comment on the Rhinos software or its output from GB telemetry. But it's my understanding the the telemetry is used for adding additional effects not already output by the base game. (Someone please correct me if that is not true.)

But I've been reading about and drooling over these Rhinos for a long time and I don't think they should have any problem with this game. So expect that if you're having trouble it's a setting issue with GB and or the Rhino software.

The answer I'm sure is to be found on their discord. You're going to have to 'suck it up' and figure discord out, me thinks. It isn't really that complicated.

Thanks for that good news. Discord is not that tough to figure out and info exchanges are sometimes fascinating. Weekly checking my place in the Rhino queue🙂

[dgiatr]

4 hours ago, SYN_Mugue said:

As a person that has only ever played with a FFB stick. In my case Logitech G940 and a MsFFB. I can attest to the fact that the game does in fact support speed related forces on both the X and Y axis. Along with stall buffet and control surface flutter and battle damage... It also provides various shaking effects like gun rattling etc. And these effect have been tuned on a per plane basis, so not all planes fly with the same feel. The amplitude of these effects are controlled by the two sliders and a checkbox in the appropriate setting page in GB.
I can't really comment on the Rhinos software or its output from GB telemetry. But it's my understanding the the telemetry is used for adding additional effects not already output by the base game. (Someone please correct me if that is not true.)

But I've been reading about and drooling over these Rhinos for a long time and I don't think they should have any problem with this game. So expect that if you're having trouble it's a setting issue with GB and or the Rhino software.

The answer I'm sure is to be found on their discord. You're going to have to 'suck it up' and figure discord out, me thinks. It isn't really that complicated.

 

2 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

Thanks for that good news. Discord is not that tough to figure out and info exchanges are sometimes fascinating. Weekly checking my place in the Rhino queue🙂

At Rhino ffb discord channel into section telemffb_user at about 15/8/24 date there is a conversation between a guy named Hiab and another one named Number481 which probably gives an answer to the question. If I get it right you have to maximize ffb telemetry from inside il2 and then maximize all spring gains ( and master gain) and periodic effects.

[SCG_motoadve]

3 hours ago, dgiatr said:

 

At Rhino ffb discord channel into section telemffb_user at about 15/8/24 date there is a conversation between a guy named Hiab and another one named Number481 which probably gives an answer to the question. If I get it right you have to maximize ffb telemetry from inside il2 and then maximize all spring gains ( and master gain) and periodic effects.

How do you maximize ffb telemetry from inside il2 ?

[dgiatr]

15 minutes ago, SCG_motoadve said:

How do you maximize ffb telemetry from inside il2 ?

By the two sliders and a checkbox in il2 settings

[SYN_Mugue]

54 minutes ago, dgiatr said:

By the two sliders and a checkbox in il2 settings

Hm, I was under the impression that the sliders in game control only the FFB and Shaking effects amplitude(how strong the forces are) supplied to a standard DirectX FFB device. Telemetry, I thought, was used for extracting game events and adding effects not already modeled with a profile in 3rd party software. eg. landing gear bump, engine rattle, etc. Kind of apples and oranges in my limited understanding. I guess what I'm asking is. Dose it change a value in a Telemetry file when you move the sliders or is it just output to the DirectX device? Can the Rhino operate only as a DirectX device(without the Rhino app), or only by drawing telemetry through a profile in the 3rd party app, or is it either, and or both? Hope I'm making sense, and someone in the know will shed some light on this for me.

Edited September 20, 2024 by SYN_Mugue

[dgiatr]

9 minutes ago, SYN_Mugue said:

Hm, I was under the impression that the sliders in game control only the FFB and Shaking effects amplitude(how strong the forces are) supplied to a standard DirectX FFB device. Telemetry, I thought, was used for extracting game events and adding effects not already modeled with a profile in 3rd party software. eg. landing gear bump, engine rattle, etc. Kind of apples and oranges in my limited understanding. I guess what I'm asking is. Dose it change a value in a Telemetry file when you move the sliders or is it just output to the DirectX device? Can the Rhino operate only as a DirectX device(without the Rhino app), or only by drawing telemetry through a profile in the 3rd party app, or is it either, and or both? Hope I'm making sense, and someone in the know will shed some light on this for me.

In case of il2 and Dcs i think, Rhino ffb can operate without the use of any additional telemetry programs like Rhino telemffb which gives additional effects but it's not obligatory as in the case of Microsot Simulator. So il2 can send directly some basic telemetry data to Rhino ffb as it is only using Rhino configurator program.

[Varibraun]

On 9/20/2024 at 6:12 PM, SYN_Mugue said:

I guess what I'm asking is. Dose it change a value in a Telemetry file when you move the sliders or is it just output to the DirectX device? Can the Rhino operate only as a DirectX device(without the Rhino app), or only by drawing telemetry through a profile in the 3rd party app, or is it either, and or both? Hope I'm making sense, and someone in the know will shed some light on this for me.

Edited Friday at 06:17 PM by SYN_Mugue

 

On 9/20/2024 at 6:29 PM, dgiatr said:

In case of il2 and Dcs i think, Rhino ffb can operate without the use of any additional telemetry programs like Rhino telemffb which gives additional effects but it's not obligatory as in the case of Microsot Simulator. So il2 can send directly some basic telemetry data to Rhino ffb as it is only using Rhino configurator program.

 

I just tested both ways with the P-47 (which has good stall FFB effects) to be certain, and you are both correct. 

 

IL2 sees the Rhino as a device and doesn't require any of the VPForce software to be running in order to have FFB with the IL2 FFB settings enabled.  HOWEVER, there is world of difference when the TelemFFB software is running using the telemetry values vs. the native IL2 FFB (especially in the shaking, which is quite anemic without the TelemFFB software running).  I believe this is also confirmed on p 90 of the VPForce Rhino manual (see below).  This is why @Aapje continues to point out how important the software component will be for the upcoming mainstream FFB bases.

 

PS - I haven't used this in DCS yet, so I don't know important it will be there compared to DCS native FFB - I have heard the F-4 is very well done for FFB.

 

[dgiatr]

On 9/26/2024 at 9:18 PM, Varibraun said:

 

 

I just tested both ways with the P-47 (which has good stall FFB effects) to be certain, and you are both correct. 

 

IL2 sees the Rhino as a device and doesn't require any of the VPForce software to be running in order to have FFB with the IL2 FFB settings enabled.  HOWEVER, there is world of difference when the TelemFFB software is running using the telemetry values vs. the native IL2 FFB (especially in the shaking, which is quite anemic without the TelemFFB software running).  I believe this is also confirmed on p 90 of the VPForce Rhino manual (see below).  This is why @Aapje continues to point out how important the software component will be for the upcoming mainstream FFB bases.

 

PS - I haven't used this in DCS yet, so I don't know important it will be there compared to DCS native FFB - I have heard the F-4 is very well done for FFB.

 

 

Hello to all!

 

I am trying to make my diy ffb rhino ( Winger ) to work with IL2 sturmovik and have an issue with that.

 

I only use Rhino ffb configurator not telemffb yet and i am loosing spring tension effect while trying to fly in IL2. I have enabled ffb inside il2 and when i disable it i am not loosing spring effect from my ffb rhino joystick. I have read somewhere else for another guy facing the same issue. I also face regular il2 crashes ( game suddenly stops and throws me out) when i use diy rhino ffb.

 

Any solution to this? Thanks!

On 9/19/2024 at 11:04 PM, 102nd-YU-devill said:

As far as I could set it up until now, airspeed does not affect controls until you pull Gs when it is evident on pitch but i cant say for roll. In any case roll is irrelevant in that case.

I do not know if it can be done, all discussion is on the damn discord and I am too old to be able to navigate that thing and find stuff.

 

[dgiatr]

On 9/26/2024 at 9:18 PM, Varibraun said:

 

 

I just tested both ways with the P-47 (which has good stall FFB effects) to be certain, and you are both correct. 

 

IL2 sees the Rhino as a device and doesn't require any of the VPForce software to be running in order to have FFB with the IL2 FFB settings enabled.  HOWEVER, there is world of difference when the TelemFFB software is running using the telemetry values vs. the native IL2 FFB (especially in the shaking, which is quite anemic without the TelemFFB software running).  I believe this is also confirmed on p 90 of the VPForce Rhino manual (see below).  This is why @Aapje continues to point out how important the software component will be for the upcoming mainstream FFB bases.

 

PS - I haven't used this in DCS yet, so I don't know important it will be there compared to DCS native FFB - I have heard the F-4 is very well done for FFB.

 

Can you please send me your il2 config settings for telemffb to communicate with il2? ( receive telemetry data). I have a hard time doing it.

Thanks