Discussion of TF 6.5 Aircraft Preview

[Buzzsaw]

Please post your comments and questions in this thread.

[Peachy9]

Dream  come true

[Mysticpuma]

The ultimate mission for any Lancaster pilot would have to be the Dams raid (Operation Chastise) and the attack on the Tirpitz (Operation Catechism). Chances are, the Tirpitz is too late in the planned timeline (1944 and would require a Tirpitz model), but May 1943 for the Dams Raids would be a spectacular mission to fly.

 

So, in regard to the Lancaster itself, the B.1 is currently listed as the release version, fine, anyone would take this as a win, but, visually there is nothing to change externally for the B.3 which was used in the dams raid, so with a few internal changes and programming to give the B.3 Packard Merlins output, could consideration be given to the B.3 and B.3 Special, maybe as a dual release? I mean, which sim pilot wouldn't want to try the dams raid?

 

B.III
This variant, which was built concurrently with the B.I and was indistinguishable externally from that variant, was fitted with Packard-built Merlin engines. The Packard Merlins used Bendix – Stromberg pressure-injection carburettors, requiring the addition of slow-running cut-off switches in the cockpit.

 

B.III (Special)

"Upkeep" bouncing bomb used for dam busting bomb mounted under Lancaster B.III (Special). The chain was driven by a hydraulic motor and gave the bomb its backspin.
Known at the time of modification as the "Type 464 Provisioning" Lancaster, 23 aircraft of this type were built to carry the "Upkeep" bouncing bomb for the dam busting raids. The bomb bay doors were removed and Vickers-built struts to carry the bomb were fitted in their place at Woodford Aerodrome near Stockport where the workers worked day and night. A hydraulic motor, driven by the pump previously used for the mid-upper turret was fitted to spin the bomb. Lamps were fitted in the bomb bay and nose for the simple height measurement system which enabled the accurate control of low-flying altitude at night. The mid-upper turret was removed to save weight and the gunner moved to the front turret to relieve the bomb aimer from having to man the front guns so that he could assist with map reading."

[Veteran66]

i like the idea from Bomber and Nightfighters ?

[343KKT_Kintaro]

Oh my god... oh my god... oh my god...

 

Thank you so much for this TFS for the Lancaster is one aircraft I've already requested for this game.

 

 

Direct link to the announcement : 

 

 

[FTC_Rostic]

1 hour ago, Mysticpuma said:

.. I mean, which sim pilot wouldn't want to try the dams raid? ..

 

I guess those who do not have 6-8 hours of free time for single sortie )))
I tried it in IL2 1946 B.A.T. on La Chute map (which is 1:1 scale). That was interesting experience I'm not sure I'd like to repeat
 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

[DD_Arthur]

Excellent news. Let the bombing of....er, French men commence!

 

 

[343KKT_Kintaro]

@Buzzsaw you said "It will probably sell for less than the standard DLC" ... and there's no map announced 'cause the intended maps for this DLC will be already existing in other DLCs ("Blitz" and "Dieppe" maps)... so I guess that this specific DLC with the Lancaster included in it will be nothing but a small payable planeset package... of how many planes if I may ask? And of... planes only? no other elements like guns, boats or land vehicles? At any rate, the substance of my question is: how many new aircraft types have been planned for this DLC?

 

 

[No.54_Reddog]

Are there any airfields on the existing channel map that actually saw Lancasters operating from there? 

[Buffo002]

The Avro Lancaster was first used in combat in April 1941, the targets were different, either in the occupied territories of Europe or directly over the territory of Germany. I think that next to the American B-17 the assignment of the Avro Lancaster to CoD is a very good idea for bombing campaigns and there were a lot of those targets, only in France there were a lot of engine factories, power plants, aircraft engine factories, railway stations, etc. And it is clear that Buzzsaw stated only one plane that he is sure of now and there will be more ... so I don't understand why there is so much negative and critical about it again, please be glad that TF informs us about more and more news. Before that, you were complaining that no one informed you about future news, and now you're complaining again, but I don't understand why.  Be patient.  

[BOO]

Couple of points strike me aside from lack of historical aifields and resultant routes taken which, to me at least, would constitute a good deal of what flying a Lancaster (or B17) involved. (perhaps one day)

 

First is workload, especially in SP. Lancs didnt carry 7 crew just for companionship on long lonely flights. I assume nothing AI can or will be implemented to realistically replicate the navigator, radioman and flight engineer doing their thing and that it'll be left to Billy no mates do everything instead.

 

And then there is that companionship. Lancs or any bomber were not dead spaces during flight. Without a least some basic intercom chatter (let alone the full on interations so famously exampled in Wynford Vaughan Thomas and his recording engineer Reg Pidsley's 1943 broadcast) flying things like the Lanc and Fortress will not be so immersive I think. No title has sucessfully acheived this apsect of crewing (Heatblur in thir F14 to some extent perhaps) and its something that never really seems to get considered in a multicrew environment.

 

Thirdly is what the AI will do. Early LW NF tactics saw the hunters approaching their quarry from the rear, diving under it, then pulling up so that the bomber passed into their bullet stream as the hunter aircraft lost speed in the climb and the bomber overtook it. This tactic was used to best avoid detection by the tailgunner. I think you know where this is going but, currently, only distance is a defence against all seeing, radar guided AI gunners. So have TFS got a plan for reducing AI preception in the dark to a point where its realistic (ir neither laser guided nor dumb as a stump)? Equally, what will the Lanc do to avoid the hunter? Will it corkscrew? If so, how will the game caluclate detection chances and can those caluclations be suitably and relaibly refined for a night fighting environment? 

 

Finally, whilst the Lanc has seemingly grabbed the headlines so far, Im also  interested to learn how both the airborne Radar and ground guidance will be implemented and what airframes will benefit. Presumably we can look forward to Radar equipped NF versions of the Beau, JU88C and 110s as well as a more refined and automated coms memu utilising radio channels and realistic comes for thse types hunting by ground guidance. Why plans have TFS for this? 

 

 

 

 

[BOO]

5 hours ago, Mysticpuma said:

 

, could consideration be given to the B.3 and B.3 Special, maybe as a dual release? I mean, which sim pilot wouldn't want to try the dams raid?

 

 

I think its a noble request but one that would be most complacated to acheive.

 

There isnt the map to start with. Then there is modelling the changes to aircraft perfomance and flight chacteristics resultant from all the mods made to the BIII Specials not to mention creating an entirely new weapon in the Upkeep mine along with complex dynamics taking ito account water, speed, height, backspin, aircraft attitude, all of which would all have to be bang on in order to get the mission to work as intended. 

 

And is all this were done - how does one fly the mission with the current non existent crew AI?  On the run in the pilot took instructions from both the bombaimer and flight engineer monitoring the spotlights out of the cockpit window. On many runs, the attacker was fomated upon by other Lancs, this is an intrisic element of the story and legend. Transit also relied on muliple eyes spotting hazard such as power lines.Im sure a clever mission buider could perhpas trigger a lot of this but automated AI crew would be far better.

 

For me at least, there would be much more than simply simgle handedly flying a lanc to a dam to make the 8 hours required a worthy investment of time.  

[Dagwoodyt]

? whimsical "announcements" and an in-limbo VU   ?

[Mysticpuma]

57 minutes ago, BOO said:

 

I think its a noble request but one that would be most complacated to acheive.

 

There isnt the map to start with. Then there is modelling the changes to aircraft perfomance and flight chacteristics resultant from all the mods made to the BIII Specials not to mention creating an entirely new weapon in the Upkeep mine along with complex dynamics taking ito account water, speed, height, backspin, aircraft attitude, all of which would all have to be bang on in order to get the mission to work as intended. 

 

And is all this were done - how does one fly the mission with the current non existent crew AI?  On the run in the pilot took instructions from both the bombaimer and flight engineer monitoring the spotlights out of the cockpit window. On many runs, the attacker was fomated upon by other Lancs, this is an intrisic element of the story and legend. Transit also relied on muliple eyes spotting hazard such as power lines.Im sure a clever mission buider could perhpas trigger a lot of this but automated AI crew would be far better.

 

For me at least, there would be much more than simply simgle handedly flying a lanc to a dam to make the 8 hours required a worthy investment of time.  

I'm only wishing. Have been an avid fan of 617 Squadron for a very long time ?

[No.54_Reddog]

The DCS Lancaster has been in the works for 2 years, although there are various updates along the way showing progress including in game footage so it's coming along although I don't know about a release date. Of course it's just a mod built by enthusiasts without access to the SDK so who knows what it will be like.

[DD_Arthur]

3 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

? whimsical "announcements" and an in-limbo VU   ?

Yeah, it is getting even more absurd. 
We’re approaching year four of the VR update? Correct me if I’m wrong as this debacle has been going on for so long now I’m loosing count…..

3 hours ago, Mysticpuma said:

I'm only wishing. Have been an avid fan of 617 Squadron for a very long time ?

Presumably you’ll be able to bomb Caen continuously.

Cockscrew manoeuvre shouldn’t be a problem. The a.i.  do it continuously anyway.

[Dagwoodyt]

2nd anniversary of the VU Private Beta Test Team should be coming up soon. Maybe a celebration is being planned(?)

[Peachy9]

Note

 

"The DLC will use the BLITZ and DIEPPE maps.  It will cover the period 1940-42"

 

So Airborne radar(Lichtenstein) and AI were in their infancy until late 1942

H2S and Obe not till 1943

So This will be primarily a ground vectored intercept scenario except for the early Lichtenstein sets and AI from June-July 1942

 

What did happen a lot in 1940-42 was anti-shipping and low level daylight raids by 2 Group - Blenheims, Bostons, Venturas and Mosquitoes (BIV from June 42), plus some notable daylight raids by Lancs - Like  Le Creusot in Oct 1942 (see pic) - with no losses to Enemy Action

 

Just putting it out there

 

 

 

Edited January 1, 2024 by Peachy9

[343KKT_Kintaro]

31 minutes ago, Peachy9 said:

Like  Le Creusot in Oct 1942 (see pic) - with no losses to Enemy Action

 

 

Well, apparently ,on the 17th of October 1942, one of those Lancasters crashed : https://www.aerosteles.net/stelefr-ecuisses

[BOO]

9 minutes ago, Peachy9 said:

Note

 

"The DLC will use the BLITZ and DIEPPE maps.  It will cover the period 1940-42"

 

So Airborne radar(Lichtenstein) and AI were in their infancy until late 1942

H2S and Obe not till 1943

So This will be primarily a ground vectored intercept scenario except for the early Lichtenstein sets and AI from June-July 1942

 

What did happen a lot in 1940-42 was anti-shipping and low level daylight raids by 2 Group - Blenheims, Bostons, Venturas and Mosquitoes (BIV from June 42), plus some notable daylight raids by Lancs

 

Just putting it out there

 

 

 

From Buzzsaws statement 

 

"Besides the Lancaster, there will be additional aircraft variants and types, including twin engined night fighter types fully equipped with airborne radar systems as well as bombers with all the navigational equipment used at the time"

 

Beau VIFs were in service from March 42 and of course there were the radar equipped blenheims prior to this if the will exists to produce a Mk 1F

 

So there is scope.

 

Time will tell how much of this turns into pie in the sky.

[BladeMeister]

6.5? Did I miss something?

Happy New Year to all and hopefully next Christmas TF will have some CLOD presents under the tree. Go TF, see you next December.

 

S!Blade<><

[Missionbug]

The Lancaster is certainly a lovely model from what we see, congratulations to the modeller on the work done so far.

 

As for using it, not sure, I have said before in the GB threads that heavy bombers were not only used over Germany but also took part in raids as mentioned above by Peachy9 and also coastal work such as by B-17s of Coastal Command so there will be that chance to fly it without the long haul that is so much percieved as the norm for types such as the Lancaster that many of us dislike so it is a win situation whatever the team do, those who want to fly it will and the rest will be happy to have it as part of the sim anyway irrespective of whether they fly it or not as folks are always crying out for the heavies to be included in everything WWII related.

 

Hopefully all the plans we have now read about will come to be at some time.

 

Take care and be safe.

 

Wishing you all the very best, Pete.

Edited January 1, 2024 by Missionbug

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

Lancaster sure is a great plane to be added. Night missions will propably be a challenge  

[Peachy9]

1 hour ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

 

 

Well, apparently ,on the 17th of October 1942, one of those Lancasters crashed : https://www.aerosteles.net/stelefr-ecuisses

 

Yes

 

It was damaged when striking a building - not from Enemy Action ?

 

Very Low level

 

 

[sevenless]

Excellent news! 1940 to 1944 a lot of nightbombing took place both from RAF to continental Europe and from Luftwaffe to UK. Nice to see that represented in a game. Love to dream about flying Lancs and Mossies or Nightfighters to intercept them. Good luck with that module. I can't wait.

[Barnacles]

In the release notes it mentions the radars, and all the navigation systems.

Does that mean there will be astro nav achievable in game.

This would be essential for some of the Swordfish Missions, as well as a lot of others at night.

 

[LLv34_Flanker]

@BarnaclesIt should be possible as Oleg mentioned before CloD was even released that stars etc should be in their right place? Just a recollection from those days ages ago.

[Blitzen]

And don't forget a target for the Ju-88c's and  new 110's to shoot at!

[Blitzen]

Some new views jof preliminary modeling ust posted on FaceBook and probably elsewhere

Edited January 2, 2024 by Blitzen

[major_setback]

1 hour ago, Blitzen said:

And don't forget a target for the Ju-88c's and  new 110's to shoot at!

 

That is a stirling painting, but I don't think it's a Lancaster.

[Blitzen]

3 minutes ago, major_setback said:

 

That is a stirling painting, but I don't think it's a Lancaster.

What a clever play on words!

[Volant_Eagle]

On 12/31/2023 at 5:48 AM, Mysticpuma said:

The ultimate mission for any Lancaster pilot would have to be the Dams raid (Operation Chastise) and the attack on the Tirpitz (Operation Catechism). Chances are, the Tirpitz is too late in the planned timeline (1944 and would require a Tirpitz model), but May 1943 for the Dams Raids would be a spectacular mission to fly.

 

So, in regard to the Lancaster itself, the B.1 is currently listed as the release version, fine, anyone would take this as a win, but, visually there is nothing to change externally for the B.3 which was used in the dams raid, so with a few internal changes and programming to give the B.3 Packard Merlins output, could consideration be given to the B.3 and B.3 Special, maybe as a dual release? I mean, which sim pilot wouldn't want to try the dams raid?

 

B.III
This variant, which was built concurrently with the B.I and was indistinguishable externally from that variant, was fitted with Packard-built Merlin engines. The Packard Merlins used Bendix – Stromberg pressure-injection carburettors, requiring the addition of slow-running cut-off switches in the cockpit.

 

B.III (Special)

"Upkeep" bouncing bomb used for dam busting bomb mounted under Lancaster B.III (Special). The chain was driven by a hydraulic motor and gave the bomb its backspin.
Known at the time of modification as the "Type 464 Provisioning" Lancaster, 23 aircraft of this type were built to carry the "Upkeep" bouncing bomb for the dam busting raids. The bomb bay doors were removed and Vickers-built struts to carry the bomb were fitted in their place at Woodford Aerodrome near Stockport where the workers worked day and night. A hydraulic motor, driven by the pump previously used for the mid-upper turret was fitted to spin the bomb. Lamps were fitted in the bomb bay and nose for the simple height measurement system which enabled the accurate control of low-flying altitude at night. The mid-upper turret was removed to save weight and the gunner moved to the front turret to relieve the bomb aimer from having to man the front guns so that he could assist with map reading."

I agree the dam busting raid is sort of an “ultimate” mission for the Lancaster. It’s certainly iconic for the type and I think it comes to most people’s minds when they think of the Lancaster. However, in overall operational history of the type, it was just a blip. A very important and famous blip, but a blip nonetheless. The vast majority of sorties flown by these aircraft and their crews during the war were the conventional night bombing raids, which are equally as synonymous with the Lancaster IMO. The Lancaster’s first appearance in this sim being focused only on the conventional night raids is exactly what I would expect.
 

Don’t worry, I’m sure TFS would love to do Operation Chastise if they can. Hopefully one day we’ll get it but that’s going to be a ways out I’m afraid. Yes, adding a B.III (Special) to the game should be a relatively easy job if we’re already getting the B.I. But just having the plane itself doesn’t help much if the dams aren’t even in the game. Not only is there not a map covering the target area, but as of right now the game engine can’t even support a map that large. That problem along with working out the mechanics of the attack run are far bigger issues than getting the appropriate Lancaster.

 

For now I’d just look on the bright side and realize that getting any Lancaster at all is a significant step towards one day flying a dam buster mission in CloD. Only once the map issue finally gets resolved, will it then be worth designing the mechanics and making a B.III (special). And since we’ll already have a B.I (and maybe a regular B.III by that point), that part should be a piece of cake. Thankfully, TFS has announced that expanding the map size is already part of their future plans. And it looks like the first map to get the expanded size will be Western Europe. Increasing the map size from the current 400x400km up to 600x600km or maybe 800x800km is the plan for 9.0 as stated by TFS (it would need to be 800km for Chastise). Unfortunately that’s a long way out but at least it’s on the radar.

 

Maybe this will be the (or a) theme of 9.0? Or maybe 9.5?

[Volant_Eagle]

On 12/31/2023 at 10:37 AM, Buffo002 said:

The Avro Lancaster was first used in combat in April 1941, the targets were different, either in the occupied territories of Europe or directly over the territory of Germany. I think that next to the American B-17 the assignment of the Avro Lancaster to CoD is a very good idea for bombing campaigns and there were a lot of those targets, only in France there were a lot of engine factories, power plants, aircraft engine factories, railway stations, etc. And it is clear that Buzzsaw stated only one plane that he is sure of now and there will be more ... so I don't understand why there is so much negative and critical about it again, please be glad that TF informs us about more and more news. Before that, you were complaining that no one informed you about future news, and now you're complaining again, but I don't understand why.  Be patient.  

Are you confusing it with the Manchester or typo on the year? I’m pretty sure the Lancaster never took off with malicious intent until early 1942. I could be wrong though, I’m not an expert on British heavies. My understanding is that the Stirling and the Manchester started dropping bombs in early ‘41, and the Lancaster and Halifax didn’t start until early ‘42.

 

Yes, the Lancaster is basically the same airframe as the Manchester, but I don’t regard them as the same type. Changing from 2 to 4 engines is a pretty massive change. The fact that the name changed almost immediately after first 4 engine conversion of the Manchester seems to reflect this.

 

I also don’t understand why there’s negativity about all the recent updates. Only about 3 months ago we had basically no idea what or if anything was in the works after the VU other than likely an Fw 190. What they’ve actually been working on, and what they have planned, are far beyond what I would have imagined or hoped for back in September. So I for one am quite excited about the future of CloD. To be fair to the critics though, most of the negativity I’ve noticed on this forum is over the delay of the VU rather than the new content announcements themselves. That’s actually rather understandable at this point. But I’d rather focus on the part of the glass that’s full when these announcements come out. Yes it’s very annoying that the VU has taken WAAAYYYY longer than originally forecast. But isn’t it also encouraging to know that the team members whose skills aren’t directly related to the VU haven’t just been twiddling their thumbs?

[Buffo002]

Sorry see the first combat deployment was in February 1942, April 1941 was the flight of the prototype. But I don't see a problem, creating missions or campaigns for 1943, using the canal map or later Deep ... it was already here and used and nobody minded, it's true that some machines will be missing, but then again there won't be such a difference. And who knows, maybe by then a new map will be added or new planes will be added.

And I also want to add that B-17s did not make their first combat deployment in Europe (in larger formations) until the summer of 1942.

12 hours ago, Volant_Eagle said:

Pletete si to s Manchesterem nebo překlep v ročníku? Jsem si docela jistý, že Lancaster nikdy nevzlétl se zlým úmyslem až do začátku roku 1942. I když se mohu mýlit, nejsem odborník na britské těžké stroje. Chápu to tak, že Stirling a Manchester začaly shazovat bomby na začátku roku '41 a Lancaster a Halifax začaly až na začátku roku '42.

 

Ano, Lancaster je v podstatě stejný drak jako Manchester, ale nepovažuji je za stejný typ. Změna ze 2 na 4 motory je docela masivní změna. Zdá se, že to odráží skutečnost, že název se změnil téměř okamžitě po přestavbě prvních 4 motorů Manchesteru.

 

Také nerozumím tomu, proč jsou všechny poslední aktualizace negativní. Jen asi před 3 měsíci jsme v podstatě neměli ponětí, co nebo jestli něco bylo v práci po VU, kromě pravděpodobného Fw 190. Na čem skutečně pracovali a co plánovali, je daleko nad rámec toho, co bych měl. si představovali nebo v co doufali už v září. Takže já jsem z budoucnosti CloD docela nadšený. Abychom byli ke kritikům spravedliví, většina negativity, kterou jsem na tomto fóru zaznamenal, se týká spíše zpoždění VU než samotných oznámení nového obsahu. V tuto chvíli je to vlastně docela pochopitelné. Raději se ale soustředím na tu část sklenice, která je plná, když vyjdou tyto hlášky. Ano, je velmi nepříjemné, že VU trvalo WAAAYYYY déle, než se původně předpokládalo. Není ale povzbuzující vědět, že členové týmu, jejichž dovednosti přímo nesouvisí s VU, zrovna nemrskali palcem?

 

Edited January 3, 2024 by Buffo002

[Mysticpuma]

I interviewed Ivan Castle, a Lancaster pilot, a few years back. 

It's a couple of hours long but here is the link if anyone fancies it. 

 

[BENKOE]

< ... The first 8th Air Force units arrived in Great Britain on 12th May 1942 to "set up house" and to prepare for the coming campaign of unescorted daylight precision bombing. Despite warnings from the combat-experienced R.A.F. authorities, the 8th Air Force Staff began training. The first raid was launched by eighteen B17Es of the 97th Bomb. Group on 17th August, against Ruen. ... >

 

< ... On 20th September 1942 General Jimmy Doolittle formed the nucleus of the 12th Air Force in England, and early in October the 97th, 99th, 301st and 2nd Bomb. Groups were transferred to the new formation. The 8.th A.F.'s "muscle" was needed for North Africain campaign of November. ...>

 

Reference:
The Boeing B17E & F Flying Fortress, PROFILE PUBLICATIONS No.77, by Charles D. Thompson

 

5 hours ago, Buffo002 said:

Sorry see the first combat deployment was in February 1942, April 1941 was the flight of the prototype. But I don't see a problem, creating missions or campaigns for 1943, using the canal map or later Deep ... it was already here and used and nobody minded, it's true that some machines will be missing, but then again there won't be such a difference. And who knows, maybe by then a new map will be added or new planes will be added.

And I also want to add that B-17s did not make their first combat deployment in Europe (in larger formations) until the summer of 1942.

 

 

PS: And as usual, we count chickens before they're hatched. ?

 

[Blitzen]

preliminary...actually it looks what might have been fashioned for LucasArts SWOTL!

[Blitzen]

Why always think about just the Dam Buster Raid ?  The early Augsburg raid would be a “fun “ “Charge of the Light Brigade” SM (somewhat similar to the infamous USAAF rain on Plosti in August 1943-we’ll have to wait for the Microprose B-24 for that…)the new Lanc of course it would have to be “flown” to a substitute city on the new Channel map ….?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augsburg_raid

 

Edited January 4, 2024 by Blitzen

[Blitzen]

( BTW : proposed Microsoft B-24...but it might be quite a while:)

[Art-J]

I know it's a wishlist item and I get the cinematic appeal of of Dam Buster mission, but having a Lanc modified for it would be like having a B-29 modified for Silver Plate project. In both cases yeah, you can simulate one Very Famous Mission with such an airplane (well, two missions in case of the B-29), but that's about it. A waste of a game asset really. Let's see a standard config modelled first to cover more operations, leaving one-off specials for later.