Regarding the AI issues - a request for help

[LukeFF]

Hey all, 

 

Recently, the team has had a look into the issues players have reported about the AI in Flying Circus and have run some tests of their own. At this point, the results show the AI fights quite well, per the videos posted below by @Han. At this point, we need more information from you in the form of mission and track files that show what planes are having AI issues and how those issues can be repeated. That sort of information will help the team greatly to see where there may be issues that need to be rectified. Now, onto the videos and their results:

 

(all comments are directly from Han)

Video 1: "12 min dogfight, 4 Camels versus 4 Dr1. All Veterans, 50% fuel.
4 Dr1 lost, and 2 camels lost.
Combat took 12 minutes. Combat is very compact in space and very dynamic. See no troubles here."

"If you will look at this video carefully - they shoot and hit a lot. But, in RoF, there was two "Jason's hacks" - bullet spreading and damage multiplier. So this is why in RoF battles were faster.
But faster - not means they were more realistic."
 

 

Video 2: "SPAD13 versus FokkerD7F
It's even faster than in RoF - in 1.5 minutes there were 3 kills (1 D7F and 2 SPAD13 are down, one of them - me on autopilot)"
 

Video 3: 4 N17 versus 4 HalbD2
In 5 minutes 2 N17 and 2 HalbD2 killed
 

 

[Avimimus]

As soon as my joystick arrives I'll try to do some rigorous beta testing.  

 

Maybe we can use this thread as a constructive place to try to understand the AI and how it reacts... do some systematic work that'd actually be helpful!

[Han]

I've took best virtual Ace we have here in Msk, misterX (you know him, but I'll not tell you who he is because he says he can perform better ))) ), and given him FC and RoF fight 1 Dr1 vs 4 AI Camels (50% fuel).
It was hard there and there, but in FC it harder to make critical hits. Without RoF's "producer's damage multiplifier" you need to hit something realy critical.

In FC misterX was killed two times in first head-on (engine failure and rods failure), in third attempt it was 6 minutes fight, he killed one Camel, damaged two others, but they constantly hits his plane skin and finaly - hit his head.

In RoF misterX was killed three times in first headons (mostly - oil spreaded from the engine), in fourth attempt in 4 minutes fight he killed 3 Camels before last one managed to kill his engine.

 

So as I've said - it's hard there and there, but in RoF it's faster because of cheating bullets damage.

 

In RoF there was bullet damage hack which increased it affecting of aircraft superstructure. It was made by producer's decision then. So this is main why RoF dogfights were so short in time.

Second - in RoF AIs (especialy on hard planes like Camel or Dr1) were bad adjusted in how AI controls it's flight. Many aeliron shaking, many falls to stall and so on. So when this happens (and this happens not constantly, but in some conditions) - such AI plane become a sitting duck for others. This is the second why RoF dogfights were so short in time.

 

So we checking how our AIs performs the dogfighting. You see here three videos as examples, plus we're trying to dogfight versus our AIs by ourselves. As you see - it's looks like realistic WW1 air combat.

 

Anyway,

There still a chance that in some specific conditions or some specific planes are dumb in air combat. So if you see that - record the track and attach it to your message "in FC AI is dumb!". If you have no track - don't post "in FC AI is dumb!". Want to change something? Than please do sometning that will allow to understand what exactly we need to change.

[Gunfreak]

This was before the latest patch.

Career mode, inca span of a few minutes I hoot down 4 AI (and I'm not even a  good ww1 pilot)

After the mission. I saw that none of my AI buddies had any kills, neither had the AI enemies shot down any of my buddies.

 

 

[Flying_Anchor]

46 минут назад, Gunfreak сказал:

Career mode, inca span of a few minutes I hoot down 4 AI (and I'm not even a  good ww1 pilot)

After the mission. I saw that none of my AI buddies had any kills, neither had the AI enemies shot down any of my buddies.

Yes, that is a typical story!

1 час назад, LukeFF сказал:

If you will look at this video carefully - they shoot and hit a lot

Dear team, I guess we all mean that the problem is between human pilot and AI, not between just AI pilots.

AI cannot chase maneuvering human pilot and it even looks like it doesnt try to chase. 

And vice versa, AI rarely can drop the 'tail' and escape from being chased.

 

On Gunfreak's video on timecode 9:25 you could see their possibilities. Albatros even didnt try to escape!

1 час назад, LukeFF сказал:

4 Camels versus 4 Dr1. All Veterans, 50% fuel.
4 Dr1 lost, and 2 camels lost.
Combat took 12 minutes.

Try this setup: 1 man and 3 AI wingmen vs 4 AI. The battle will be ended times faster.

1 час назад, Han сказал:

So if you see that - record the track and attach it to your message "in FC AI is dumb!

Ok, gonna record some stuff now.

[No.23_Starling]

27 minutes ago, Flying_Anchor said:

Yes, that is a typical story!

Dear team, I guess we all mean that the problem is between human pilot and AI, not between just AI pilots.

AI cannot chase maneuvering human pilot and it even looks like it doesnt try to chase. 

And vice versa, AI rarely can drop the 'tail' and escape from being chased.

 

On Gunfreak's video on timecode 9:25 you could see their possibilities. Albatros even didnt try to escape!

Try this setup: 1 man and 3 AI wingmen vs 4 AI. The battle will be ended times faster.

Ok, gonna record some stuff now.

Spot on. Human vs Ace AI in RoF was a half decent challenge as it could prop hang pretty well and two circle rate dangerously. In RoF the AI would latch on to your tail and stay there - that doesn’t happen to me in FC, and if they do end up on my six they drift off like Mr Magoo after a turn or two.
 

Where the RoF vs human AI often fell down was energy fighting (AI SPADs turned with you) and more intelligent tactical behaviour. On the latter, the Wings Over Flanders Fields AI will do the following:

 

- Bounce the player and kill them in surprise diving attacks

- Boom and zoom taking turns with wingmen

- Split S if they start to lose a turning two circle fight

- Spin down to escape and recover then RTB

- RTB when they start to lose including climbing away

- Jinxing and flying evasive rather than sitting in a losing turn fight

 

Getting the AI to the point where it will latch on to your six in FC and prop hang dangerously would be a huge improvement; getting it to match best-in-class (WoFF) would need further development.

[Flying_Anchor]

Quick start, Ace level, 8 vs 8. I've shoot down 6 as solo victories and 2 as team's.

 

https://vk.com/video688396680_456239024?list=ln-IetK2qCgCnyFz73zLl

[Han]

1 hour ago, Gunfreak said:

This was before the latest patch.

Career mode, inca span of a few minutes I hoot down 4 AI (and I'm not even a  good ww1 pilot)

After the mission. I saw that none of my AI buddies had any kills, neither had the AI enemies shot down any of my buddies.

 

 

 

Would be nice to have _gen.Mission file, not a video. may be they all generated as novice AI level

11 minutes ago, Flying_Anchor said:

Quick start, Ace level, 8 vs 8. I've shoot down 6 as solo victories and 2 as team's.

 

https://vk.com/video688396680_456239024?list=ln-IetK2qCgCnyFz73zLl

same here, would be nice to have generated mission or flight record files

[Flying_Anchor]

And the second one, 4v4 on Ace and I shoot down 3 of them. I forgot to catch the sound so here're time codes to not let you get bored:

0:42 -- AI sits on my tail but immediately drops me for no reason.

1:02 -- I've got his 6 and he doesnt try to escape, just lazy circling.

2:17 -- Great opportunity for AI to sit on my tail, but he ignores and goes head-to-head with another AI.

3:00 -- AI tries to escape using lazy circles.

3:50 -- Same.

 

https://vk.com/video688396680_456239025?list=ln-20MqvR5UDjc2i464FZ

 

 

I could also send you mission file if you remind me what exactly should I attach.

Yep, and I havent flown any WWI battles for 2 years.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Flying_Anchor

[BMA_Hellbender]

Hey @Han, great to see you post on the FC forum!

 

 

2 hours ago, Han said:

So as I've said - it's hard there and there, but in RoF it's faster because of cheating bullets damage.

 

That's news to me, especially after we've been told for years in RoF that gunnery was made to be as historically accurate as possible.

 

But okay, water under the bridge, RoF is in the past, let's look at FC.

 

 

 

So how about...

 

4x Nieuport 28 (Ace AI) vs 4x Albatros D.Va (Ace AI)

Mission settings in QMB:
 

 

 

 

So the fight is about as exciting as watching paint dry. There is some decent shooting from the N28s at long distance since the DVas take about zero defensive action, and when at close quarters the DVas seldom or never even try to lift their noses up to score a shot or stay in a turn. Also watch the N28s almost crash a few times as they desperately try to stay airborne while maneuvering vertically.

 

Honestly I quit watching at about 10 minutes since the N28s were running out of ammo and the DVas were just turning lackluster circles. Again, this is Ace AI and the DVa is not a difficult plane to fly...

 

 

 

 

Compare this to

 

4x Nieuport 28 (Ace AI) vs 1x Albatros D.Va (me)

 

 

Now I'm nowhere as trained as I used to be, nor do I regularly fly the DVa, but this is a slaughter that takes me less than 4 minutes to complete with some basic angles fighting. Again the AI scores a few hits again me in long range shooting, but for the rest it's downright embarrassing.

 

 

 

So in conclusion:

 

• Fix the Nieuport 28's energy loss in a turn, please, a guy even wrote a book about it in the 14 years since you've released that plane (2009)
   
• The AI still can't do basic angles dogfighting in an easy to fly plane such as the Albatros D.Va

 

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by =IRFC=Hellbender
spelling

[Flying_Anchor]

1 минуту назад, =IRFC=Hellbender сказал:

was made to be as historically accurate as possible.

For its time. ?

[Flying_Anchor]

33 минуты назад, Han сказал:

same here, would be nice to have generated mission or flight record files

@Han This? Sorry for Google drive, but it weights 40 Mb.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/10JfRrLHTlZNVUg-eClSd8_Qq7jQ8qo4n/view?usp=sharing

33 минуты назад, Han сказал:

. may be they all generated as novice AI level

Huh, there're not enough difference between novice and ace AI level so the devs could distinguish them?

Edited December 20, 2023 by Flying_Anchor

[BMA_Hellbender]

13 minutes ago, Flying_Anchor said:

For its time. ?

 

Fair point. Times have changed, and we're long overdue an AI and FM update for a number of planes.

 

I say this with as much goodwill, respect and downright sympathy for the developers: it's been more than 10 years, show us you still care as much as we do.

[BMA_Hellbender]

@Han

 

Here is a 4x N28 vs 4x DVa track. 17 minutes and 20 seconds (I stopped after a while since all appeared to be out of ammo and still turning circles) of really poor dogfighting in which the N28s struggle to stay in the air and the Albies could have won at any time if they had simply done a split S or done a prophang, which human players do constantly.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iJGF-bc8onqOjwzNLekGCoAq3dLDU_d4/view?usp=sharing

[=LD=G0rgonP0rnstar]

Average AI Dr.I with minimal fuel load can't outmaneuver a Player SPAD with full tank and extra guns/ammo that just flies in a level and non-evasive turn.

Track Recordings:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1rNapQHy2gA4FNP0Dlfb9XpLgW5KVj3vk?usp=sharing

Video:

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by =IRFC=G0rgonP0rnstar

[cmbishop]

Hi Han,
Hi team,

I've created a dogfight : I flew with a Spad XIII against 4 Ace Fokker DVIIF. I've heavily damaged one of the enemy plane and sustained only few shots. No enemy plane managed to stick my tail during the fight. Two Fokkers fled the fight without reason. One stayed but he made large manoeuvers instead of attacking me.
I send you the track and the _gen.Mission file.
Best regards

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ufCImqeGVRNw9csM0axrnawnbNRdic5w/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GGViJeiZldNp903Dr8sJv3YB2hd3GJop/view?usp=sharing

 

PS : thanks for considering the AI problem.

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

Agree with all the others.   The AI fights other AI ok, but against a human it is very easy to kill AI in very short time.  The AI at ace level shoot very straight,  but thier flying style is very routine,  predictable and unimaginative.  Thier ability to perform air combat manuvers,  is not good, and they simply repeat manuvers with little concern about where the human player is or what he is doing.  In fights involving 5 or more planes, they seem blind to the human player locations and collide with human players very often.  

 

In summary, it's NOT the AI marksmanship that is deficient, it's thier flying skills and situational awareness that is the disappointment. This becomes very obvious when you fly and fight against them.  

 

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by RNAS10_Mitchell

[EnvoyEnd]

For my own little contribution to this discussion I did two tests:

In the first test, I flew a Nieuport 11 against 4x Albatross D.II flown by Ace AI. The AI comported itself incredibly underwhelmingly even by my expectations for FC's AI. I was never hit and the AI did minimal maneuvering to shake me when I took their control zone. To top it off, two of the Albs. self-atritted by colliding with each other. Video below. 

In the second test, I kept the 4x Ace Alb. D.II but flew against them in an F.E.2b. While I did take hits, I did not go down until I made an error that sent me into an unrecoverable spin. I observed the enemy AI on many occasions failing to take shots when they had the opportunity and it was easy to shake them off with simple maneuvers. During the course of the fight, two Germans fled, my gunner killed another, and I went offensive on the last one before I stalled the plane. Video below.

Please also see attached the MLG files for both missions. 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ngbbqd6sY22NGfM3opz4vFoo3mdGd7_Q/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dqsWhAEeSVRSYlVQPmI_tgEbOGZTcrvN/view?usp=sharing

[Avimimus]

Just a note: This thread is focussed on providing evidence (roughly on par with reports by beta testers) and using that evidence to find concrete solutions. As a result, this thread will be moderated slightly differently from other forum threads, in that we may remove posts which are very non-specific.

 

Please go into detail about what exactly you think is happening, and the conditions which lead to it happening. The developers will need enough information to be able to replicate whatever is going on - so try to be very specific if you can. If you can't provide a track file or video, please make a detailed description involving what situations are producing what behaviours. Thanks!

[Flying_Anchor]

Me on Fokker D.VIIF vs 4 Ace Fokker Dr. I. Clear victory. Looks like AI is not interested in catching me up, just flying around and making random bypass shots.

https://vk.com/video688396680_456239026?list=ln-xkAK87wGGFGLcqeQOr

 

A very boring because of terrible visibility dogfight with me on a SPAD 13 vs 4 Ace Fokker D.VIIF.

https://vk.com/video688396680_456239027?list=ln-hmKIR5EqG1hHgfbSuM

 

Much more interesting dogfight where i've got critical hit in the engine but nonetheless made a clear victory, 1v4 Ace.

https://vk.com/video688396680_456239028?list=ln-UfkbWtYlDubaHInzwz

 

Here I did some critical hits on 2 AI planes during face to face engagement while AI didnt make a try to hit me, 1v4 Ace.

https://vk.com/video688396680_456239029?list=ln-zqWZLEYTUSKrFZbaIw

 

Finally, the last and the shortest one. AI crashed into me with no reason, 1v4 Ace.

https://vk.com/video688396680_456239030?list=ln-lrC6f0FkEbMrfFPKKx

 

As you could see, win 1v4 fight is not a problem at all. Bots think they fly Messerschmitts with ~20s virages and dont use biplanes possibilities. They are also very passive and dont try to sit on your six, just flying in long circles and shooting you if you've got into their aim.

[Rothary]

Came across this on the first mission in a new career (Louis Maistre is me)

 

 

The mission was balloon defence and the enemy AI (ones attacking the balloon) seemed to ignore us almost entirely, barely even reacting to being shot at, while friendly AI was having an incredibly hard time shooting down a target flying virtually in a straight line. In this case it felt like the German AI was somehow stuck in balloon attack mode to the point of not reacting to the French planes almost at all even when under fire and taking hits, even after the balloon had been destroyed.

 

Track file:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1zfusJFK9WCbgk4tmOZ6wXsYfA1t2cm-h?usp=sharing

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Shooting ducks

I deliberately choose for AI best turn fighter and best climber both great propeller hangers.

@Han8 ACE AI VS player  

Gen mission attached

 

 

Missions.zip

Edited December 21, 2023 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[Han]

So its about player vs AI while AI vs AI is ok.

And posters are - guys, I remember you from RoF times. You have so much experience and virtual flight skills that Im afraid trying to kill you for AI is the same as for band of childs try to kill Homelander.

 

In cases you show - regular player like me would be killed many times by those AIs. Killed 8 enemies in one fight? Me and everyone I saw will be out of ammo after 2nd or 3rd if they managed to be alive till that moment.

 

So the reason - you guys too good ))

 

Anyway, I see many complaints about Alb D5. It was weak in RoF too while its heavy and underpowered in compare to same time enemies. But we will check it. N28 looks like got to be checked too. But it wasn't best dogfighter too...

[Flying_Anchor]

3 минуты назад, Han сказал:

In cases you show - regular player like me would be killed many times by those AIs.

Please, check their turn speed and angle limitations. Dont you see AI doesnt do quick turns and 90 degree rolls at all? Bots' turn circles are very, very large and they cant drop the tail at all.

[Han]

On 12/20/2023 at 11:33 PM, =IRFC=Hellbender said:

That's news to me, especially after we've been told for years in RoF that gunnery was made to be as historically accurate as possible.

It was before it was hacked by producer's decision. Reason was clear - there were many complaints about "its too hard to damage airframes by my couple .303!” Complaints were loud, so producer's decision was that such complaints are bad for product and team got to multiply airframe damage.

 

In FC we back to realism as the main criteria of simulation quality. Even if some customers want more damage.

[Flying_Anchor]

7 минут назад, Han сказал:

You have so much experience and virtual flight skills that Im afraid trying to kill you for AI is the same as for band of childs try to kill Homelander.

So what should we do, Daniil? I want to fly, I want to buy FC volumes so much, but there's just no competitive for me at all. 

1 минуту назад, Han сказал:

In FC we back to realism as the main criteria of simulation quality. Even if some customers want more damage.

IMHO your desicion is right. ?

And damage is very OK if you can aim the weak spots. I demonstrated in my videos that a couple of .303 is enough to be a winner in 1v4 fight.

[Han]

6 minutes ago, Flying_Anchor said:

So what should we do, Daniil? I want to fly, I want to buy FC volumes so much, but there's just no competitive for me at all. 

I dunno ))

Its a task for billion dollars to make AI which will pilot full-FM airplane so good, that he will manage to kill a monster ace like you. 

AI programmer got to be the same ace-monster as you to have a chance for solve such task.

 

Other games uses FM and weapons hacks for AIs in such cases. But are they simulators then?

 

Anyway, idea to check how much AoA they pulling in combat turns - is a good one.

 

PS

Check for One Punch Man anime series - its shows your situation when a hero becomes so strong, that there is no enemy can match him and make him interest in combat. And hero becomes boring and melancholic ))

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

28 minutes ago, Han said:

So its about player vs AI while AI vs AI is ok.

And posters are - guys, I remember you from RoF times. You have so much experience and virtual flight skills that Im afraid trying to kill you for AI is the same as for band of childs try to kill Homelander.

 

In cases you show - regular player like me would be killed many times by those AIs. Killed 8 enemies in one fight? Me and everyone I saw will be out of ammo after 2nd or 3rd if they managed to be alive till that moment.

 

So the reason - you guys too good ))

 

Anyway, I see many complaints about Alb D5. It was weak in RoF too while its heavy and underpowered in compare to same time enemies. But we will check it. N28 looks like got to be checked too. But it wasn't best dogfighter too...

You are right, but the ACE AI lack of evasive maneuvers and can't glue to yours six - makeing you do the defensive maneuvers to shake him, you need to just turn or made out of plane manuver - AI can't copy . AI do not fly at best turn radius or best trun rate or use plane to its best climb/turn.

Edited December 21, 2023 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[Flying_Anchor]

Только что, Han сказал:

Other games uses FM and weapons hacks for AIs in such cases. But are they simulators then?

Yep, CloD is a vert nice example. AI rolls are insane but also there're no doubts they cheat.

 

And I know that you always can adjust AI difficulty in easy way: change bots' accuracy! Its not a FM cheat, but will increase game difficalty nonetheless.

It will be very interesting to me to test dogfight with increased AI accuracy.

5 минут назад, Han сказал:

Anyway, idea to check how much AoA they pulling in combat turns - is a good one.

Thank you! Im waiting for your results.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

3 hours ago, Han said:

n FC we back to realism as the main criteria of simulation quality. Even if some customers want more damage.

We need more fires, as you see from my video there was none... MvR kills  statistic are well known -  more half are flamers. The incendiary ammo?

 

Btw what about that unrealistic shaking from 3 bullets in the canvas?

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[Flying_Anchor]

6 минут назад, Han сказал:

Check for One Punch Man anime series - its shows your situation when a hero becomes so strong, that there is no enemy can match him and make him interest in combat. And hero becomes boring and melancholic

In one way its unpossible to make a flight simulator, because modern gamers can have 6000 or even 8000 hours in the game, while real historical aces had only... hundreds of hours of dogfight experience?

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

21 minutes ago, Han said:

ts a task for billion dollars to make AI which will pilot full-FM airplane so good, that he will manage to kill a monster ace like you. 

AI programmer got to be the same ace-monster as you to have a chance for solve such task.

Program  that old way yes, now AI can learn watching and coping by playing simulation - generation by generation solving the problems. Machine learning and neural network.

Edited December 21, 2023 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[No.23_Starling]

49 minutes ago, Han said:

So its about player vs AI while AI vs AI is ok.

And posters are - guys, I remember you from RoF times. You have so much experience and virtual flight skills that Im afraid trying to kill you for AI is the same as for band of childs try to kill Homelander.

 

In cases you show - regular player like me would be killed many times by those AIs. Killed 8 enemies in one fight? Me and everyone I saw will be out of ammo after 2nd or 3rd if they managed to be alive till that moment.

 

So the reason - you guys too good ))

 

Anyway, I see many complaints about Alb D5. It was weak in RoF too while its heavy and underpowered in compare to same time enemies. But we will check it. N28 looks like got to be checked too. But it wasn't best dogfighter too...

Hey, there’s been a fair amount of analysis done on FMs thanks to @Holtzauge - I believe he posted you his book? A few community members and I ran comparative tests on the FC flight models (see summary post below).

 

As you say, the DVa is too slow but turning too tight, whilst the N28 is turning very poorly vs the modelled data. The DVa, DIIIa, and DVII are also all missing their 1918 overcompressed engine variant which is included in the game for the CL2.

 

Fixing some of these FMs would amount to almost completely new planes, particularly the N28.

 

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by US103_Rummell

[Sneaksie]

11 minutes ago, Flying_Anchor said:

change bots' accuracy! Its not a FM cheat, but will increase game difficalty nonetheless.

It looks like they have a problem getting on the tail of an experienced player, so the increased accuracy might not help the AI much while at the same time causing more frustration from some incredibly lucky hits from hundreds of meters away.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

11 minutes ago, Sneaksie said:

It looks like they have a problem getting on the tail of an experienced player, so the increased accuracy might not help the AI much while at the same time causing more frustration from some incredibly lucky hits from hundreds of meters away.

I agree, we don't need snipers. We need ACE AI to be challenging - avoid to be shoot and try to stay at player six when he is traing to be deffenive and shake the AI off his six. Same we need to be able to suprrise AI, good bunce shoould be doable

Edited December 21, 2023 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[Gunfreak]

1 hour ago, Han said:

So its about player vs AI while AI vs AI is ok.

And posters are - guys, I remember you from RoF times. You have so much experience and virtual flight skills that Im afraid trying to kill you for AI is the same as for band of childs try to kill Homelander.

 

In cases you show - regular player like me would be killed many times by those AIs. Killed 8 enemies in one fight? Me and everyone I saw will be out of ammo after 2nd or 3rd if they managed to be alive till that moment.

 

So the reason - you guys too good ))

 

Anyway, I see many complaints about Alb D5. It was weak in RoF too while its heavy and underpowered in compare to same time enemies. But we will check it. N28 looks like got to be checked too. But it wasn't best dogfighter too...

Not at all.

I've never flown ROF, I don't fly online, and I fly my ww1 planes like they are ww2 planes, i bearly know how to operate half the planes i fly. The AI are no challenge or danger to me.

So yes AI is broken don't blame bad AI on good players.

[BMA_Hellbender]

2 hours ago, Han said:

It was before it was hacked by producer's decision. Reason was clear - there were many complaints about "its too hard to damage airframes by my couple .303!” Complaints were loud, so producer's decision was that such complaints are bad for product and team got to multiply airframe damage.

 

In FC we back to realism as the main criteria of simulation quality. Even if some customers want more damage.

 

I'm very happy to hear that the main criteria for the DM is now realism. Wood and canvas was stopping bullets in RoF. This is not the case anymore in FC, especially with the new pilot physiology.

 

I really hope you will now also take a look at some of the older FMs.

Edited December 22, 2023 by =IRFC=Hellbender

[=LD=G0rgonP0rnstar]

2 hours ago, Han said:

So its about player vs AI while AI vs AI is ok.

And posters are - guys, I remember you from RoF times. You have so much experience and virtual flight skills that Im afraid trying to kill you for AI is the same as for band of childs try to kill Homelander.

 

In cases you show - regular player like me would be killed many times by those AIs. Killed 8 enemies in one fight? Me and everyone I saw will be out of ammo after 2nd or 3rd if they managed to be alive till that moment.

 

So the reason - you guys too good ))

 

Anyway, I see many complaints about Alb D5. It was weak in RoF too while its heavy and underpowered in compare to same time enemies. But we will check it. N28 looks like got to be checked too. But it wasn't best dogfighter too...

Flying Circus is the first flight sim I ever played. I currently have less than 1500hrs total time playing *any* kind of flight sim. Certainly that is far less time than the many years you have spent on flight sims, no? Even as a newbie pilot I am able to completely annihilate the Ace AI with my eyes closed. There are difficulty settings for a reason, no? On novice, the AI will suicide into the ground without even being shot. On ace they can't even follow behind basic maneuevers. The AI presents such a lack of challenge that all the singleplayer content is virtually unplayable, it's like being homelander fighting a bunch of children. I would LOVE to play a pilot career in WW1 but I also want to enjoy that experience, I want the AI to challenge me at least once.

[BMA_Hellbender]

2 hours ago, Han said:

Anyway, I see many complaints about Alb D5. It was weak in RoF too while its heavy and underpowered in compare to same time enemies. But we will check it. N28 looks like got to be checked too. But it wasn't best dogfighter too...

 

Just two quick words about both these planes:

 

• The Albatros D.Va was not a bad machine, but it was meant to be flown at altitude. What we have in the sim is too slow and doesn't climb well enough and doesn't retain much power at altitude, but it's also too maneuverable.
   
• The Nieuport 28 was an excellent dogfighter. It just had many operational issues. Compare it to the Fokker E.V/D.VIII and Siemens-Schuckert D.IV: excellent late war rotary planes, but problems operating them. The Nieuport 28 had fuel in the cowling that caught fire and wing fabric shedding in a dive. The Fokker E.V/D.VIII lost its top wing frequently. The Siemens-Schuckert D.IV didn't have enough castor oil to properly lubricate its engine. All of these issues were eventually resolved. If the Fokker and Siemens are good in FC, then the Nieuport 28 should be good too. There's no reason for it not to be able to dogfight well.
  
  From Nieuport 28 (Nieuport 28, by J. Guttman, Windsock Datafile 36, Albatros Productions, Berkhamsted, 1992):
  
  
  
  
  
  You should get in touch with Stu Goldspink from the WW1 Aviation Heritage Trust (I hope the man is still alive), and he will tell you that the Nieuport 28 is very maneuverable, has a lot of power and is easy to turn, but very hard to ROLL using ailerons. That is the opposite of what we have in RoF/FC.

[Panzerlang]

Puh and lol. I had a blat yesterday, me and seven AI in Alb D2s vs four FE2s and four N11s, all on random ability. Considering I'm a fearless uber-ace I observed nothing untoward with an AI that's replicating cold, young and scared pilots flying death-traps. And the FE2 gunners got plenty of hits into me too.

My opinion...too much is being expected of AI being run by a single core on multiple planes. As a role-player I find the overall experience fully authentic. My personal evidential criteria...I've yet to match Eric Hartmann's achievement in Iron Man mode.