The Nieuport 17 GBR and Hanriot HD.1 are now available - plus some other fixes

[LukeFF]

In case you haven't seen it: https://il2sturmovik.com/news/822/update-5107/

[BMA_Hellbender]

Stoked to hear about the FFB fixes.

 

And I’ll take the Hanriot up for a spin soon. ??

[JGr2/J34b_Matthias]

@LukeFF After downloading the patch there's a DServer version mismatch.  The new Dserver boots and then reports that a new version of the dedicated server is available and says to go update the game.   Of course... that was already done, the new Dserver version is clearly downloaded and in use.  Reconfirmed issue across multiple server installs.

Edited October 25, 2023 by J5_Matthias-Sch27b

[LukeFF]

23 minutes ago, J5_Matthias-Sch27b said:

@LukeFF After downloading the patch there's a DServer version mismatch.  The new Dserver boots and then reports that a new version of the dedicated server is available and says to go update the game.   Of course... that was already done, the new Dserver version is clearly downloaded and in use.  Reconfirmed issue across multiple server installs.

 

Thanks, I'll let QA know.

[LukeFF]

A fix for the DServer issues should be up in a few hours.

[Cynic_Al]

I have every confidence that the HD1 will be as popular as it is in RoF.

[ST_Catchov]

5 hours ago, =IRFC=Hellbender said:

Stoked to hear about the FFB fixes.

 

And I’ll take the Hanriot up for a spin soon. ??

 

First impressions?

[Zooropa_Fly]

God I hope he's happy with it. 

[Charlo-VR]

Can anyone tell me the max RPMs the Nieuport 17 GBR and Hanriot HD.1 engines can take before getting damaged?

[BMA_Hellbender]

4 hours ago, Cynic_Al said:

I have every confidence that the HD1 will be as popular as it is in RoF.

It only needs to beat the N28.

[Guest deleted@83466]

1 hour ago, =IRFC=Hellbender said:

It only needs to beat the N28.

 

It won’t, because there is too much structure in the way to shoot accurately.

[No.23_Starling]

On 10/26/2023 at 3:53 AM, SeaSerpent said:

 

It won’t, because there is too much structure in the way to shoot accurately.

Is it the rigging and cabane struts or is the issue the windscreen? I find the issue comes from the latter. Look how much of the view is being blocked by the medal curved sides:

 

If you look at survivors there’s a variety screens. The Swiss one has an AVRO like small one, similar to the one Albert Ball fitted to the SE5, unhappy with the original greenhouse which then became standard:

 

 

The naval version also has a much smaller window without a large frame:

 

 

Could the issue actually be that we should have optional smaller windows? Does @=IRFC=Hellbender or anyone else have photography of a number of Belgian front line types?

 

[jollyjack]

Naval? We need the HD2:

 

[No.23_Starling]

More photos of front line types. Larger glass pane and an AVRO type in one.

 

I wonder if 777 Studios used just one example when multiple windscreens were used. We have the Camel wing cut-out so an AVRO screen doesn’t seem unreasonable.

 

 

[Trooper117]

If we have an accurate representation of the out of the factory Hanriot, and can see that the windscreen presents a problem, then perhaps their real life pilots thought the same and did something about it...

[No.23_Starling]

1 hour ago, Trooper117 said:

If we have an accurate representation of the out of the factory Hanriot, and can see that the windscreen presents a problem, then perhaps their real life pilots thought the same and did something about it...

That’s my point - like the SE5, some or many pilots might have binned it once equipped. Would be interested to see if anyone has photos or books on the subject. If there’s tons of AVRO type photos there’s an argument to add a field mod option. They’ll have the assets from other models, plus the real Swiss survivor.

 

Are we sure we have the factory model?

Edited November 3, 2023 by US103_Rummell
Stupidity

[No.23_Starling]

It looks like at least some of the Italian HD1s used a small windscreen. I’m not sure if these were the Macchi built version or personal modification. Guolio Lega from 76a poses below with his HD1. Note the windscreen:

 

 

We see something similar with Silvio Scaroni’s bird, his fellow squadron mate:

 

[LukeFF]

This is likely the source used for the windscreen:

 

Apparently it is an original Belgian example owned by The Vintage Aviator.

[No.23_Starling]

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

This is likely the source used for the windscreen:

 

Apparently it is an original Belgian example owned by The Vintage Aviator.

Yeah I saw that one and those photos. Not all the survivors have that windscreen, nor do all those in the available photography. I’ve ordered a copy of the Profile HD1 on eBay so will see if there’s any mention of the windscreen. It’s possible the Macchi built Italian version had a different windscreen as per the photos above.

 

The Swiss original survivor definitely has a AVRO style small windscreen- the question for me is around the factory standard?

 

Edited November 3, 2023 by US103_Rummell

[Trooper117]

I have been looking through my WWI aircraft library... in several books that show photos of the HD1, most of the pictures show the windscreen that we have in game or at least very similar to it.

In particular, I have two books by Walter Pieters, pretty much the expert on the Belgian Air Service in WWI, 'Above Flanders Fields' (Grub Street), and 'The Belgian Air Service in the First World War'... over 700 pages. His pictures of the Hanriot show the same type of windscreens used.

I found one picture of the very first HD1 received in August 1917 that again looks very like our one in the game... it's still not proof of course that it was the standard one out of the factory.

 

[Trooper117]

Follow this link to some good pics of the HD1 in Belgian service...  https://www.belgian-wings.be/hanriot-hd-1

[ST_Catchov]

Hmm interesting. What did the most famous Belgian ace of them all have fitted? That would be the standard wouldn't it?

 

Or is it simply that WW1 Belgian fighter pilots didn't want their brilliantined hair mussed up. For the ladies ....

 

Whereas the Italians just didn't care ....

 

 

[ZachariasX]

10 hours ago, US103_Rummell said:

The Swiss original survivor definitely has a AVRO style small windscreen- the question for me is around the factory standard?

The Swiss bought sixteen HD1 as surplus after the war in 1921. There were good reports about that aircraft type and the Swiss were very happy with it later on. Those aircraft were (same as the N.28) disarmed immediately and after a thorough revision used as trainers. I should think that was the moment where thy got rid of that idiotic wind“screen“. Of the 16, they lost one by crashing it, one was kept as a museum exhibit, the rest scrapped. Nine years of service life is a good indication of how fond the weekend warriors were of these crates. Same as the N.28, they flew them until they were beyond serviceable.

[US103_Baer]

7 hours ago, ST_Catchov said:

Or is it simply that WW1 Belgian fighter pilots didn't want their brilliantined hair mussed up. For the ladies ....

 

Whereas the Italians just didn't care ....

 

 

 

Oh I think the Italians made it work just fine!

 

1917 , ITALY : The italian aviator hero flying ace prince Duca FULCO RUFFO DI CALABRIA ( 1884 - 1946 ). Fulco was the son of Beniamino Tristano Ruffo di Calabria -Santapau, 5th Duke of Guardia Lombarda ( 1848 - 1901) and Laura Mosselmann du Chenoy , Belgian, whose maternal grandfather was Jacques André Coghen the second finance minister of Belgium (1831-1832).He fought in the First World War as a fighter pilot in the Italian Air Force. His personal emblem was a black skull and crossbones painted on the fuselage of his plane.He shot down twenty enemy airplanes, earning him rank 5 on the list

 

 

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by US103_Baer

[BMA_Hellbender]

21 hours ago, US103_Rummell said:

Could the issue actually be that we should have optional smaller windows? Does @=IRFC=Hellbender or anyone else have photography of a number of Belgian front line types?

 

I don’t think so, I think the main issue is that visibility through the window is quite poor when rendered on a 2D screen.

 

Here are a few pictures of Willy Coppens’ Hanriot (mind you he was the top balloon buster, not the top scorer when it came to shooting down other airplanes)

 

 

 

Collimator sight clearly visible here.

[Trooper117]

13 hours ago, ST_Catchov said:

Hmm interesting. What did the most famous Belgian ace of them all have fitted? That would be the standard wouldn't it?

 

Coppens had several Hanriots... here he is in one of them. I'd say it looks like the one we have in game. (ah, HB beat me to it)

 

 

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Trooper117

[No.23_Starling]

1 hour ago, =IRFC=Hellbender said:

I don’t think so, I think the main issue is that visibility through the window is quite poor when rendered on a 2D screen.

 

Here are a few pictures of Willy Coppens’ Hanriot (mind you he was the top balloon buster, not the top scorer when it came to shooting down other airplanes)

 

 

 

Collimator sight clearly visible here.

Nice Willy pic.

 

Maybe the Macchi version had a different screen?

[LukeFF]

Speaking of Hanriots, I saw an original one today here in CA (originally built as an HD 2). It has the thick windscreen. 

 

 

[ST_Catchov]

11 hours ago, =IRFC=Hellbender said:

I think the main issue is that visibility through the window is quite poor when rendered on a 2D screen.

 

I think you're right benders. Anyway, the case is closed, the devs have the correct windscreen unless we get the Italian map.

[BMA_Hellbender]

@LukeFF could you please still mention to the devs that it's not possible to get the HD1's propeller spinning again to restart the engine once you've shut down the engine in the air?

 

With all other planes with engine off the propeller begins to windmill at least at around 200+ km/h in a dive. In the Siemens-Shuckert D.IV I even haven't been able to get the propeller to stop spinning in the first place.

[LukeFF]

46 minutes ago, =IRFC=Hellbender said:

@LukeFF could you please still mention to the devs that it's not possible to get the HD1's propeller spinning again to restart the engine once you've shut down the engine in the air?

 

With all other planes with engine off the propeller begins to windmill at least at around 200+ km/h in a dive. In the Siemens-Shuckert D.IV I even haven't been able to get the propeller to stop spinning in the first place.

 

Yes, sure, I'll bring it up with them

[No.23_Starling]

All, the Profile Publication on the HD1 by JM Bruce arrived this morning. I’m pretty convinced now that the Italians used an AVRO-type windscreen. Bruce provides a photo of several Italian HD1s parked up with this feature plus an illustration of a known airframe also with such a windscreen:

 

There is also mention on the visibility in a favourable light multiple times. He first writes: “…because the upper wing had 4 degrees of dihedral it was almost level with the pilot’s eyes at the cabane and interfered little with his field of view.” Next is a quote from the great Coppens who says: “It was as light as a feather on the controls, and the pilot had a wonderfully clear field of vision.” Lastly Bruce notes that the Belgians were offered Camels in late 1918 but refused replacing their Hanriots because they “…preferred the Hanriot’s better balanced responsiveness and the superior view from its cockpit.”

 

All this evidence begs the question of why the RoF model offers poor visibility? Is this due to the flat screen vs being able to freely move your head? I hear VR is a better experience but I also wonder if something is amiss with either the size of the default windscreen or the default seating position. It might help to offer a Macchi ‘mod’ with the smaller windscreen - @LukeFF the devs could take the SE5a screen a decent substitute. Just an idea and not that radical given that we have the Camel cut out wing mod to help with visibility.

Edited November 11, 2023 by US103_Rummell

[Trooper117]

If we had an Italian career with a map to play it on we might be able to convince them to have a similar windscreen in the mod section, but I can't see that happening.

Unless of course there is an FC5...

[LukeFF]

I think it's largely down to the effects of playing on a monitor vs a VR headset. It's not the same thing, but this is why German WWII gunsights appear off-center on a flat screen but when viewed in VR they are properly aligned with the pilot's eyes. 

[ST_Catchov]

5 hours ago, Trooper117 said:

Unless of course there is an FC5...

 

'New Project' [wink]

[BMA_Hellbender]

7 hours ago, US103_Rummell said:

All, the Profile Publication on the HD1 by JM Bruce arrived this morning. I’m pretty convinced now that the Italians used an AVRO-type windscreen. Bruce provides a photo of several Italian HD1s parked up with this feature plus an illustration of a known airframe also with such a windscreen:

 

 

There is also mention on the visibility in a favourable light multiple times. He first writes: “…because the upper wing had 4 degrees of dihedral it was almost level with the pilot’s eyes at the cabane and interfered little with his field of view.” Next is a quote from the great Coppens who says: “It was as light as a feather on the controls, and the pilot had a wonderfully clear field of vision.” Lastly Bruce notes that the Belgians were offered Camels in late 1918 but refused replacing their Hanriots because they “…preferred the Hanriot’s better balanced responsiveness and the superior view from its cockpit.”

 

All this evidence begs the question of why the RoF model offers poor visibility? Is this due to the flat screen vs being able to freely move your head? I hear VR is a better experience but I also wonder if something is amiss with either the size of the default windscreen or the default seating position. It might help to offer a Macchi ‘mod’ with the smaller windscreen - @LukeFF the devs could take the SE5a screen a decent substitute. Just an idea and not that radical given that we have the Camel cut out wing mod to help with visibility.

 

4 hours ago, LukeFF said:

I think it's largely down to the effects of playing on a monitor vs a VR headset. It's not the same thing, but this is why German WWII gunsights appear off-center on a flat screen but when viewed in VR they are properly aligned with the pilot's eyes. 

 

You're going to make me dust off my VR headset again, aren't you? (Samsung Odyssey+)

 

God I hate this thing...

 

Hello WMR villa! I can't say I've missed you.

 

Ah now I'm in the Steam house.

 

Great, now I'm getting the IL-2 seizure loading screens again.

 

I can't reach a damn key on my keyboard.

 

I can't believe I let them talk me into putting this blasted thing on my he--

 

 

JESUS I'M IN A REAL HANRIOT

Oh how I wish Willy would still be alive to see this!

Oh God I love VR! I only ever want to play VR for the rest of my life!

Anyway, I have about 30 minutes before this thing makes me violently ill and I put it away for another 6 months, so let's make it count.

 

It's almost impossible to convey the 3D effect VR offers you, but I'll do my best anyway. I'm mostly using only a single of the two pictures, but I'll add annotations.

 

 

General visibility

 

• Hanriot (with Le Chrétien sight as is visible on photos)
  
  This is actually quite nice, the upward view is fantastic
  
  
  
  If anything I can see where I'm going when I'm turning
  
  
  
  Can also easily glance over the top of the wing if necessary
  
  
  
  So this indeed looks like a tiny peephole on a screenshot, and while it's absolutely not as bad in VR, it's not fantastic either
  
  
  Ah, words cannot express how good this looks, I just want to reach out and touch that cowling
  
  
   
• Camel (without Aldis sight or wing cutout, as neither was available to the Belgians)
  
  That is a lot of real estate in the picture
  
  
  
  I mean I know roughly where I'm turning, but the wing is really in the way
  
  
  While forward visibility is obviously great and mostly unhindered, this is where I want to hold my head not to get wind blasted
  
  
  This spinny thing is going to poke my eye out, I have seldom felt so uncomfortable in VR, not since the plank challenge (different Plank)
  
  
  This is a fun view, but that bloody top wing still takes up so much space
  
  
  
  Winner: Hanriot, hands down
  
  Far more comfortable viewing and seating positions.

 

Dogfight visibility
(vs. AI Albatros D.Va, not trying to prove anything here)

 

• Hanriot (again with Le Chrétien sight as is visible on photos)
  
  Hello Mr Albatros, it was impossible NOT to see you from this angle and distance
  
  
  
  Passing under him to trade in some energy for speed and use that fantastic upward visibility
  
  
  
  Gentleman's pass completed, no way I can lose him after the merge
  
  
  
  So again, this looks terribly small in 2D, it's just far better in VR, think fully zoomed in 2D (for the record: I didn't use VR zoom)
  
  
  
  By the time he's this close, you don't even need the sight anymore. Still looks pretty damn small in 2D, but again VR/stereoscopy really takes care of that
  
  
  
   
• Camel (without Aldis sight or wing cutout, as neither was available to the Belgians)
  
  Forward horizontal visibility is bloody great if you're co-alt with your enemy, I could clearly see Mr Alby as soon as I spawned in (almost invisible in 2D)
  
  
  
  The small wing gap saves the day if we're going for the same low yo-yo scenario, a bigger cutout would be so much better here
  
  
  
  Lost him for a moment after the merge with all that wing estate in the way, but not so difficult to reacquire
  
  
  
  But then at this distance, with twin Vickers... man the Camel is just scary
  
  
  
  I mean sure I'm closing one eye here, but really you don't even have to, it's murder at this point
  
  
  
  Winner: Camel, by a mile
  
  I mean what else did you expect? This is the king of dogfighters. If your SA is good then the wings getting in the way isn't even a factor. This is a murder machine through and through.
   

Edited November 12, 2023 by =IRFC=Hellbender

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

I had same , wow , what a nice visibility when going from 2D to VR in Pfalz D.III . Unfortunately all immersion was gone when I just realized and felt like I'm flying a 1:1 a toy plane without engine and in vacume - the absence of visible vibration or flexing of airframe, wires and installed inside cockpit instruments is a big immersion killer for me.  In 2D there is a option for headshake a cheap imitation, just enough but somehow even with that option turned off I don't feel that discontinuity in 2D as in VR while I'm immersed in the virtual world.

[Trooper117]

Have a look at these pics... the pilots seating position.

Their eyeline is below the windscreen frame so they are not looking over it when looking forward.

Try to emulate that position in game and see what result you get (not VR).

The cockpit is very small, a pretty tight fit for those chaps... their heads are not that far back from the screen either.

 

[No.23_Starling]

47 minutes ago, Trooper117 said:

Have a look at these pics... the pilots seating position.

Their eyeline is below the windscreen frame so they are not looking over it when looking forward.

Try to emulate that position in game and see what result you get (not VR).

The cockpit is very small, a pretty tight fit for those chaps... their heads are not that far back from the screen either.

 

Great photos. The third one seems to validate the quote above from Bruce about the low wing and being able to see above it. That’s a very wide FoV for anything above and ahead. On a flat monitor or even a 3x monitor setup you’re usually more focused on your side and centre. Reminds me a bit of the Dolphin and the pilot’s view above the top wing.

[ST_Catchov]

On reflection, the dihedral design of the upper wing was a simple yet brilliant way to improve upward and forward visibility. You gotta hand it to those French dudes for their innovative approach to aircraft design during the Great War.

 

I'm warming to the Hanriot despite the fact I once called it a retarded Camel (to my eternal shame). My apologies Bender.