More two seaters?

[PatrickAWlson]

Right now there are some serious gaps in the two seater lineup.

 

#1 No German two seater before November 1918.

#2 No late war German recon two seater (we do have the Halberstadt so there is at least something)

#3 No French early war two seater (In RoF I use the FE2 in drag as a Farman/Voisin so there is at least something)

#4 No French early 1917 two seater (In RoF I use the FE2 in drag as a Dorand so there is at least something)

#5 The FE2 that we have is a later variant, making it difficult to catch.  Is an earlier (less HP) variant possible?

 

Putting in at least one German early war recon so the Nieuport and DH2 can catch something is really important for any sort of early war career.  I have stop gaps for the other missing pieces but there is nothing that can fill in for that missing recon 2 seater (The Roland is not the answer).

 

I'm not going to get into how much I would love to see things like the BE2.  I know that's not going to happen.  However, maybe some AI only targets?

 

[Trooper117]

I'm pretty sure at this point that we will only get what's left in the RoF stable (less the sea planes)... that will take us another year or two, (perhaps more).

You are absolutely right though, two seater aeroplanes are desperately needed, but the only hope is they decide to make some from scratch like the two collector planes, but by that time the 'new project' should be rearing it's head, so they may be totally tied up with that.

 

[Guest deleted@219798]

More 2 seaters? Yeah that would be nice, but the way things are on the Western Front the WW1 dogs are lucky to get the leftovers, and have to pay anice price for those. Aviatiks? No way, we can't afford it!

[=IRFC=kotori87]

I'll add another plug for two-seaters. They are vitally important for the multiplayer campaigns, as well as the single-player experience. Missions like photo recon, arty spotting, etc. provide mission-critical objectives for all the fighter jocks to fight over. Some of the most memorable aerial battles I've been in were aboard a two-seater on high-stakes recon missions.

[PatrickAWlson]

@Trooper117 I have no doubt that my post has about the same value as howling at the moon, but I figured that if there was ever a time to try howling, then now is that time.  Their WWII revenue stream is effectively limited to new customers, as they are not producing much additional product.  Flying Circus is actively being developed.  If we can get one two seater - an early war German - then we at least have something that co exists in the same time period as the fighters.  

 

From my point of view, I'm not extending PWCG back in time until I get two seaters to go along with the fighters. That means the FE2 and one of the RE8 or Strutter.  I  don't want to put Bristols and Breguets in the air with Eindeckers.  Truth be told, I don't want to put Nieuport 11s in the air with DFWs, but I did it before so I'll do it again.

[Varibraun]

28 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

I did it before so I'll do it again.

 

I just appreciate you are doing it at all! 

[CaptainFlemme]

Early war two seaters would be a dream in FC, and are yes totally required for any pre summer 1916 action. Which is a sad since the Battle of Verdun, and maybe also the Battle of the Somme, two defining moments of history for all ww1 belligerents, can't yet be properly presented in FC even if we have a very nice map for those.

 

I feel that a Caudron G4, an early german B or C class (Aviatik, Albatros...), a BE2c and a Morane L/Pfalz E1 would go a long way toward a comprehensive and fun WW1 plane set.

 

In the mean time, Patrick, would it be possible to use in PWCG the soviet U2 as a stand in for an early german B class (unarmed two seater) with proper fake skins (I'm working on some for fun and to have something the go along the N11 and Halberstadt d.ii) ? Or is too far fetched maybe ? ? It could even somewhat work as a BE2c, there is a skin on Haluter skin manager that is actually quite nice. As a bonus, it gives a cosy 60's ww1 adventure movie ambiance ? ! It's caracteritics and performance seem not that far from those early birds (130 or 140km/h max speed, ~120bhp).

 

 

[PatrickAWlson]

I would love to see many different ones added, but if I could choose only one it would be the Albatros C.III.  I am not looing for the best airplane.  I am looking for an airplane that can represent 1916 German recon.  The Roland CL.II is in the stable but it is definitely not representative.  It was really used more like a Bristol than an RE8.

 

I used the FE2 and RE8 as stand ins for French pushers and the Dorand respectively.  It's not ideal but it kind of works.  Back in the day, RB3D did the same thing.  

 

For a stand in I use the DFW, which is the only German built for purpose recon plane in the game.  The problem, of course, is that this is effectively a very late 1916 design that was so good it was used into 1918.  Not really what you want to see if you are flying a DH2.  I think the performance of the U2 is way better than 1916 German planes and probably better than the DFW, so it would not really solve the problem.

[CaptainFlemme]

You're right without a doubt, the german side requires a slow early two seater the most ; at least the FE2b is there for the Entente. Forget my dumb idea for the U2, I had the wrong impression that it was slower ^^'.

 

As always, thank your very much for your time and PWCG ? !

[Trooper117]

Not in Hun colours, but here she is...

 

 

[Avimimus]

On 7/25/2023 at 10:26 AM, PatrickAWlson said:

Right now there are some serious gaps in the two seater lineup.

 

#1 No German two seater before November 1918.

#2 No late war German recon two seater (we do have the Halberstadt so there is at least something)

#3 No French early war two seater (In RoF I use the FE2 in drag as a Farman/Voisin so there is at least something)

#4 No French early 1917 two seater (In RoF I use the FE2 in drag as a Dorand so there is at least something)

#5 The FE2 that we have is a later variant, making it difficult to catch.  Is an earlier (less HP) variant possible?

 

Putting in at least one German early war recon so the Nieuport and DH2 can catch something is really important for any sort of early war career.  I have stop gaps for the other missing pieces but there is nothing that can fill in for that missing recon 2 seater (The Roland is not the answer).

 

I'm not going to get into how much I would love to see things like the BE2.  I know that's not going to happen.  However, maybe some AI only targets?

 

 

Note: I see that you've already corrected some of the above! But I'll still provide some corrections in case they are useful:

Spoiler

#1 We have a representative two seater before Nov 1918:

- The DFW C.V first appears at the front in October 1916

 

#2 We have later war German recon two-seaters:

- The DFW C.V was used until the end of the war in large numbers (e.g. 620 at the front in August 1918). It was partially replaced by the LVG C.V/LVG C.VI (which itself was a derivative of the DFW and only slightly faster). 

- The Halberstadt Cl.II is a good representative of the trend at the ender of the war to design smaller two-seaters which could be used as fighters.

 

#4 We have a French two-seater from before 1917:

- France is estimated to have built between 4200 to 4500 Sopwith Strutters during the war. The Strutter thus provides us with a French two-seater from the second half of 1916 until the Br.14 appears.

 

P.S. Regarding #5: The F.E.2b at 141 km/h for the slower variants is still a bit fast for the Fokker E.III to catch. It might be better to model a B.E.2c for England and a Caudron, Voisin,, or Morane-Saulner L for France?

 

As for your other points - I agree entirely:

Spoiler

A) We need an early French two-seater. The Caudron G.IV is a good pick (although a Voisin could also work). I'd personally go with a Caudron G.IV and a B.E.2c - that would give us a slower early war two-seater for both the French and the British. However, if only one could be made - it should be French (as France has fewer two-seaters in the sim - only one which is uniquely French, compared to ~5 multi-seat aircraft for German and Britain each).

 

B) We need an early war German two-seater. The LVG C.II and the Albatros C.I are slow enough to be caught by the Nieuport N.11 and D.H.2, but are also well armed. So I would recommend one of those two. The Albatros C.III could also be used, but it is a bit fast for our D.H.2 variant.

 

C) There is a gap regarding higher altitude penetrating reconnaissance for Germany. The candidates would be the Albatros C.V, the Rumpler C.IV, and the Rumpler C.VII/Rubild. Of these the Rumpler C.IV is the most produced, with the longest service life. It also has almost the same performance as the Rumpler C.VII, but more multi-role capabilities.

 

 

In summary:

 

We really do need early war two-seaters for both sides (either the LVG C.II or Albatros C.I for Germany vs. a Caudron G.IV and B.E.2c) to act as targets which are slow enough to catch.

 

We could also do with a Rumpler C.IV to make more accurate mid/late war campaigns. After that one could indulge in a two seat fighter (Nieuport N.12 and Hannover Cl.II would both be charmers).

 

[US103_Baer]

The need for early war 2 seaters is well established and they'd make excellent Collector planes in my opinion. 

For thoughts regarding which aircraft in particular,  i'd suggest avoiding duplication and going to @Avimimus excellent thread which lays out and details the relevant selection data. 

Edited July 27, 2023 by US103_Baer

[PatrickAWlson]

On 7/27/2023 at 7:28 AM, US103_Baer said:

The need for early war 2 seaters is well established and they'd make excellent Collector planes in my opinion. 

For thoughts regarding which aircraft in particular,  i'd suggest avoiding duplication and going to @Avimimus excellent thread which lays out and details the relevant selection data. 

 

That is a very interesting thread but this topic has a slightly different take (and one that might be unique to SP campaigns).  In the end I am hoping for one.  Just one.  I will take anything German that flew in early to mid 1916 and was primarily recon.  I want mid 1916 more than early 1916 as I think it would be more use4ful in a campaign.  The other qualification is that Nieuports and DH2s have to be able to catch it.  Well. maybe the DH2 catching anything usable in mid 1916 is a bit of a stretch, but so it goes.  

 

Avimus thread did give me an idea ... use the FE2B and call it an ARCO.  It's that or sail around in your DH2 trying to catch a DFW.

[US103_Baer]

 

13 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

That is a very interesting thread but this topic has a slightly different take (and one that might be unique to SP campaigns).  In the end I am hoping for one.  Just one.  I will take anything German that flew in early to mid 1916 and was primarily recon.  I want mid 1916 more than early 1916 as I think it would be more use4ful in a campaign.  The other qualification is that Nieuports and DH2s have to be able to catch it.  Well. maybe the DH2 catching anything usable in mid 1916 is a bit of a stretch, but so it goes.  

 

 

Looks like the Alb C.I, LVG C.II and Aviatik C.I would all fit the bill.

Approx 130-140 kph top speed and in service till nearly mid-1917

[PatrickAWlson]

8 hours ago, US103_Baer said:

 

 

Looks like the Alb C.I, LVG C.II and Aviatik C.I would all fit the bill.

Approx 130-140 kph top speed and in service till nearly mid-1917

 

Yep.  I'll be happy with one.  Any one. Of course, I'm not getting any of them and I'll probably have to put iron crosses on a Fee  , but it doesn't hurt to ask.

[Avimimus]

10 hours ago, US103_Baer said:

Looks like the Alb C.I, LVG C.II and Aviatik C.I would all fit the bill.

Approx 130-140 kph top speed and in service till nearly mid-1917

 

The Aviatik C.I is a bit tricky... some sources give it a speed of 142 km/h - which puts it well above that of the Airco D.H.2 version we'll be getting (and also fast enough to be harder for even the N.11 to intercept). Whether these sources are accurate or not is unclear. It also has less offensive/defensive capability - so it would probably be less useful if a flyable version of it was to be made.

 

As for the Fee - the version in the sim goes 150 km/h - so it is almost as fast as the DFW C.V... that said an AGO C.I skin for the Fee along with a French skin would allow a 'Voisin vs. AGO' fight... which would be kind of cool...