My first non iron man career - can't continue neither after dying ?

[Nocke]

Hi there,

 

Well, as the title goes: I just tried for the first time a career in non-iron-man-mode.

Got killed - and the career seems to be over the same as usually.

Whats the point of chosing iron man or not, then?

 

Cheers, thx!

[Skycat1969]

I haven't played Iron Man, but in the 'normal'(?) mode you can replay the mission as long as you don't select Finish at the AAR debrief screen.

[Nocke]

Thx!
So it means I have to repeat the same mission?

I'll just stick to iron man and creating new campaigns.

I abhor having to repeat the same mission again (and again?) until I survive..

[Yogiflight]

1 hour ago, 216th_Nocke said:

Thx!
So it means I have to repeat the same mission?

I'll just stick to iron man and creating new campaigns.

I abhor having to repeat the same mission again (and again?) until I survive..

You don't have to repeat it. Just restart the mission and exit it. That way you'll get a mission, which is not successful, but I don't care about it.

[SharpeXB]

Choosing Iron Man means dead is dead, there’s no re-fly. In non Iron Man if you hit esc you’ll notice there’s an option to restart. It can make a career very exciting if that’s not an option. There were these great career campaigns for the old IL-2 by Desastersoft. They were all “dead is dead” that was some exciting gameplay, some of the best sim moments I’ve had. But you have to play very realistically and not like a video game.  

Edited April 11, 2023 by SharpeXB

[Nocke]

2 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

You don't have to repeat it. Just restart the mission and exit it. That way you'll get a mission, which is not successful, but I don't care about it.

Good idea, thx!

[Yogiflight]

17 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

There were these great career campaigns for the old IL-2 by Desastersoft. They were all “dead is dead” that was some exciting gameplay, some of the best sim moments I’ve had.

I was flying about 250 missions of the WW II addon. I definitely wouldn't have been able to do that, if they were dead is dead.

 

17 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

But you have to play very realistically and not like a video game.

You can play as realistic as you want. There can always happen something, you can't influence, like a AAA hit, which can end your Iron Man career. Therefore I am not a friend of it anymore. I always try to stay safe in my not Iron Man careers, but bad luck or some pretty stupid friendly AI can give you a bloody bad day. This especially counts for ground attack careers, which I prefer over pure fighter careers.

[PatrickAWlson]

A couple of PWCG features that maybe the devs might want to look into.

1. Continue the career as a new pilot.

2. Maximum wound levels.  I have dead, badly wounded, lightly wounded, and superman.  Dead is the equivalent of iron man.  Everything less means that if you choose that setting, PWCG will harm you to that level at most.  I use Badly Wounded.  The prospect of losing months is enough to make me a little more careful but still allows me to continue the career.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

A couple of PWCG features that maybe the devs might want to look into.

1. Continue the career as a new pilot.

2. Maximum wound levels.  I have dead, badly wounded, lightly wounded, and superman.  Dead is the equivalent of iron man.  Everything less means that if you choose that setting, PWCG will harm you to that level at most.  I use Badly Wounded.  The prospect of losing months is enough to make me a little more careful but still allows me to continue the career.

I have all those, plus "That was BS, no way I would have drowned to death after stepping out of my bellied plane on the beach into one foot of water."

Resurrection, thanks Pat.

[SharpeXB]

8 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

I was flying about 250 missions of the WW II addon. I definitely wouldn't have been able to do that, if they were dead is dead.

 

You can play as realistic as you want. There can always happen something, you can't influence, like a AAA hit, which can end your Iron Man career. Therefore I am not a friend of it anymore. I always try to stay safe in my not Iron Man careers, but bad luck or some pretty stupid friendly AI can give you a bloody bad day. This especially counts for ground attack careers, which I prefer over pure fighter careers.

Well that’s the whole point of “Iron Man” it’s a different sort of fun. It does make you appreciate and understand real tactics. 

[Nocke]

SharpeXB, this is not about pros and cons of iron man mode. Everyone is free to do whatever he feels like, and, as Yogiflight said, there are good reasons to not give up on a career because of a stupid death like dying in 1ft of water on the beach.

I have been doing iron man careers only over the last 8 years and would like to advance a little further in time for once, the only question was how to do so, because I did not know its enough just to start a mission and get out again to be able to continue the campaign.

Got the answer (thx again) - all good now.

[Cathaoir]

You might want to take a look at this.

 

 

[Yogiflight]

11 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

It does make you appreciate and understand real tactics. 

I do appreciate and understand real tactics, but you are never safe of bad luck. You can fly as tactical as you want, if you are flying ground attacks, you are never safe from being hit by AAA fire. And as you are flying an aircraft, which is worse in dogfights than a real fighter, you are never safe of getting shot down by one, especially if there are several behind you.

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, Yogiflight said:

I do appreciate and understand real tactics, but you are never safe of bad luck. You can fly as tactical as you want, if you are flying ground attacks, you are never safe from being hit by AAA fire. And as you are flying an aircraft, which is worse in dogfights than a real fighter, you are never safe of getting shot down by one, especially if there are several behind you.

Right so flying becomes a game of managing luck. Which when you look at something like Dicta Boelcke, that’s exactly what this is. How to minimize the chance you’ll get shot down. And yeah even the real flyers (I was doing “dead is dead” in my WWI careers) admit that there’s no defense against your luck running out against AAA. You can defend yourself with skill and awareness against other planes but not ground fire. So ground attack in WWI was eventual suicide. But for example in my WWI career it was my “dicta” to never go below 2000m. Ever. Especially to try and chase a defeated enemy, let them go. 
And for the example of flying an inferior plane, well don’t get in fair fights. Only attack when you’re certain of an advantage like Oswald said. Picture a “dead is dead” career where you might get 5-10 kills but survive the war. That was being an excellent pilot IRL. 
in WWI aerial collisions was a big killer in the game, just like what happened to Boelcke and he violated one of his own rules. Don’t go 2v1 against an enemy. Yeah the AI will kill you as sure as bullets, even more so. You can survive being wounded or even crash land. But you won’t survive colliding with another plane. Playing DiD is a great way to live history and really embrace the tactics. Playing career like a video game means your life will be over on your third mission or something which is exactly what happened to new pilots. 

Edited April 12, 2023 by SharpeXB

[Guest]

?

[R33GZ]

1 hour ago, Hetzer-JG51 said:

?

Bahahahahahaha.

 

Just had to add to the emoji ?

 

AAQOP does that apply to single player as well? 

 

AAQSPP?

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, R33GZ said:

Bahahahahahaha.

 

Just had to add to the emoji ?

 

AAQOP does that apply to single player as well? 

 

AAQSPP?

Absolutely, I originally 'formalised' the 'concept' with Red Baron 3D. I named it "DiD" when online combat became a thing and everyone was flying around like headless chickens. ?

[jeanba]

On 4/11/2023 at 9:59 PM, PatrickAWlson said:

A couple of PWCG features that maybe the devs might want to look into.

1. Continue the career as a new pilot.

2. Maximum wound levels.  I have dead, badly wounded, lightly wounded, and superman.  Dead is the equivalent of iron man.  Everything less means that if you choose that setting, PWCG will harm you to that level at most.  I use Badly Wounded.  The prospect of losing months is enough to make me a little more careful but still allows me to continue the career.

Both are excellent options

I love the "continue career as a new pilot" as you play "dead is dead" but you continue the campaign keeping the history of the unit

 

I use maximum wound levels when a random event such as "the cat thinks my joystick is a mouse" ... lead to the crash of my plane: in this case, I adjust the wound level in PWCG then "parse" the mission

Edited April 13, 2023 by jeanba

[LukeFF]

On 4/11/2023 at 12:59 PM, PatrickAWlson said:

Continue the career as a new pilot.

 

This is something I've wanted for a long time. 

[Yogiflight]

On 4/12/2023 at 6:09 PM, SharpeXB said:

But for example in my WWI career it was my “dicta” to never go below 2000m. Ever. Especially (...)
And for the example of flying an inferior plane, well don’t get in fair fights. Only attack when you’re certain of an advantage

You still don't get, what I am talking about. I am currently playing a Bf 110 E2 ground attack career. We are never flying above 2000m and I usually don't have the opportunity to decide if I want to attack an enemy fighter, because it is attacking me, usually when I am at the target. When I go into a fair fight with AI it depends on the aircraft the AI is flying. If it is a P-40 or a La-5, I have good chances to win the fight. If it is another fighter I try to avoid it, but this is not easy, when the enemy is coming from above. So I don't have the comfort to decide, if I want to take a fair fight, my fights usually are not fair, but from the other direction than you like to have them. the only advantage I have, if I see the enemy coming is the AI is not good in attacking at low level. So I dive down to treetop level and fly away with him (or them) following, but not attacking because I am too low.

On 4/12/2023 at 6:09 PM, SharpeXB said:

Right so flying becomes a game of managing luck.

Exactly and sometimes you are not lucky enough, and I simply don't want to throw away a career, because I went out of luck.

[R33GZ]

2 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

If it is a P-40 or a La-5, I have good chances to win the fight.

You can survive against them? The E2 is a dog, I dont think Ive had a BoM career with it last more than a couple of missions lol. All good if you can get guns on.... but as you say, most of the time Im being bounced or run down in a tail chase ?

[PB0_Roll]

When I have to jump out and know the game will consider me captured in every case, I launch an Arma evasion mission and, if i succeed evading capture, continue my career.

 

Otherwise I like to start with a new pilot , same chapter I lost my previous one.

[Yogiflight]

18 hours ago, R33GZ said:

You can survive against them? The E2 is a dog,

In a fair fight, yes. The AI isn't good in flying the P-40 and La-5, just like with the FW 190.

 

18 hours ago, R33GZ said:

All good if you can get guns on.... but as you say, most of the time Im being bounced or run down in a tail chase ?

Exactly this was my point. As a ground attacker, you are the one, who usually is attacked. You rarely have the choice, if you want to go in, you only have the choice to go out. And in my opinion, you should take that one, whenever you can. Simply, because...

 

18 hours ago, R33GZ said:

The E2 is a dog

[R33GZ]

3 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

In a fair fight, yes. The AI isn't good in flying the P-40 and La-5, just like with the FW 190.

 

Exactly this was my point. As a ground attacker, you are the one, who usually is attacked. You rarely have the choice, if you want to go in, you only have the choice to go out. And in my opinion, you should take that one, whenever you can. Simply, because...

 

Haha. Well said. The only thing I'd add is, I do sometimes change my prescribed waypoints, to try and get better access to the target ie. Change my ingress and egress to try and avoid the intercept spawn.

 

Beggar for punishment I guess... you've inspired me to create another E2 suicide career ?

[SharpeXB]

On 4/14/2023 at 3:09 PM, Yogiflight said:

You still don't get, what I am talking about. I am currently playing a Bf 110 E2 ground attack career. We are never flying above 2000m and I usually don't have the opportunity to decide if I want to attack an enemy fighter, because it is attacking me, usually when I am at the target. When I go into a fair fight with AI it depends on the aircraft the AI is flying. If it is a P-40 or a La-5, I have good chances to win the fight. If it is another fighter I try to avoid it, but this is not easy, when the enemy is coming from above. So I don't have the comfort to decide, if I want to take a fair fight, my fights usually are not fair, but from the other direction than you like to have them. the only advantage I have, if I see the enemy coming is the AI is not good in attacking at low level. So I dive down to treetop level and fly away with him (or them) following, but not attacking because I am too low.

A ground attack Iron Man career would be an interesting but difficult challenge. As smart as you try to be, odds are your luck will run out. 

[Yogiflight]

14 hours ago, R33GZ said:

Haha. Well said. The only thing I'd add is, I do sometimes change my prescribed waypoints, to try and get better access to the target ie. Change my ingress and egress to try and avoid the intercept spawn.

I do things like that, too, when I am squadron leader. But I always start my careers at the beginning, so as wingman. So I ahve to fly the way my flight is going.

Apart from that, you don't have to do that anymore, and even more, it won't help you, because in my currently running career we have enemy fighters on our way to the target, but they usually get handled by our fighter escort. The waypoint, it gets dangerous is the target. So as long as you don't decide to attack another target than what you were ordered to, it won't help

So far it mainly got dangerous at the target or a few times at the RTB.

[Lusekofte]

What made me abandon Ironman in this game is the extremely seldom case of survive an attack. Or damage for that matter. 
I was loving getting damaged and try to evade capture. But now the plane blow up or pk is pretty much constant. Or you risk dying because one of your tires are blown. 
I do not claim it unrealistic , even I believe it is. In other games you got you fair chance while ditching or wheel up landing. 
This combined with deadly accuracy from ai guns. Friendly who ditch their bombs in the woods and return leaving you to do the mission and a million of other not realistic ways to die on. I do not fly iron man. I am currently looking for a career working for me. 
And has copied yogi bears 110 campaign. 

Edited April 17, 2023 by Lusekofte

[PatrickAWlson]

I do not fly dead is dead because this game and every other military game that I have ever played is far bloodier than real war.  I'm also not that good.  In a real war I would be dead. 

 

It's all about the AI.  Game AI (not knocking 1C AI here as this is true of EVERY military game that I have ever played) is like a very stupid terminator.  It's not terribly competent, but it keeps coming and coming and coming.  What is unrealistically good (again, applies to EVERY combat flight sim that I have ever played) is the marksmanship, while the decision making process is either unrealistically bad or just plain unrealistic.  As a result you have to kill everything (or be in the fastest plane in the sky) becausse the AI sees all and DOES NOT QUIT.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

I do not fly dead is dead because this game and every other military game that I have ever played is far bloodier than real war.  I'm also not that good.  In a real war I would be dead. 

 

It's all about the AI.  Game AI (not knocking 1C AI here as this is true of EVERY military game that I have ever played) is like a very stupid terminator.  It's not terribly competent, but it keeps coming and coming and coming.  What is unrealistically good (again, applies to EVERY combat flight sim that I have ever played) is the marksmanship, while the decision making process is either unrealistically bad or just plain unrealistic.  As a result you have to kill everything (or be in the fastest plane in the sky) becausse the AI sees all and DOES NOT QUIT.

That pretty much nailed it.

I can't not fly DiD however, due to the break in immersion if I get shot into a lawn-dart and walk away from a 300mph 10m deep crater with 'only' serious wounds. On top of which I have managed to rack up 228 kills in a career, albeit it with a lot of lucky breaks. I've read enough memoirs though to know that's highly realistic. Extreme skill (in RL) did tip the odds for the aces but didn't guarantee survival, much less make them immune.

It really is a double-edged sword. Turn off death and (for me) take the guts out of the experience or leave it on and become dispirited after days/weeks/months of progress are suddenly lost. Lol, I think that was a pun.

I have flak on low in the PWCG AND Stonehouse's mods for it (plus for plane gunners so they shoot less well AND die realistically) and I also resurrect myself if I consider the death to be bogus (drowning in shallow water or the plane tips over at low speed etc etc). That's a luxury of SP though.

[Varibraun]

On 4/17/2023 at 4:42 PM, PatrickAWlson said:

I do not fly dead is dead because this game and every other military game that I have ever played is far bloodier than real war.  I'm also not that good.  In a real war I would be dead. 

 

I think it is also the fact that unlike the actual war, almost every mission we fly in a campaign is a life or death fight.  Funny thing is that in PWCG you have created the best work around for this for those of us who feel that DiD brings the most immersion to SP.  The ability you give to "take leave" and add simulated non-action flights to the number of mission flown brings this factor somewhat back into balance.  Plus, the fact that a PWCG squadron continues to fly in the same campaign after a DiD pilot has "gone west" takes some of the sting out of DiD because your work with the squadron isn't lost.  As you and @LukeFF have noted, this is one of the biggest things missing from the In-game campaigns.

 

On 4/17/2023 at 8:40 PM, Hetzer-JG51 said:

It really is a double-edged sword. Turn off death and (for me) take the guts out of the experience or leave it on and become dispirited after days/weeks/months of progress are suddenly lost. Lol, I think that was a pun.

 

I agree and disagree with you on this.  That fear of losing your ace pilot is what keeps the immersion and blood flowing for me.  I find that I fly much more realistically with survival at the forefront like @SharpeXB when I am flying with a DiD pilot who has survived long enough to be a top ace and Squadron Commander and I feel "invested" in his fate.  On the other hand, when flying a new DiD pilot, I tend to do a lot more stupid things, like turning back into an outnumbered fight when I should be headed home.  So I think getting a DiD pilot to the point where you do get that "dispirited" feeling when you lose him is oddly what keeps me flying in SP (and why I don't like the scripted campaigns as much as the career mode).

 

For example, I just did that "stupid rookie flying" with a new PWCG 109 pilot this past weekend.  After downing a Hurricane, I thought I could best a Spit & Hurri in a rainstorm by keeping the fight vertical.  Instead, I just ended up slamming into the Channel after losing SA in a cloud.  I would have never tried that with my main Canadian pilot who is flying Spitfires on the other side of that same campaign.  (That is actually another great thing about PWCG allowing multiple SP player pilots in the same campaign, it gives you the ability to choose a Frank Luke style for one DiD pilot while having your main fly a more Erich Hartmann style.  So you can mix it up with different player pilots and don't have to always be on edge about losing that ONE pilot and the campaign like you do if you choose Iron Man for the in-game campaign).

  

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, Varibraun said:

I agree and disagree with you on this.  That fear of losing your ace pilot is what keeps the immersion and blood flowing for me.  I find that I fly much more realistically with survival at the forefront like @SharpeXB when I am flying with a DiD pilot who has survived long enough to be a top ace and Squadron Commander and I feel "invested" in his fate.  On the other hand, when flying a new DiD pilot, I tend to do a lot more stupid things, like turning back into an outnumbered fight when I should be headed home.  So I think getting a DiD pilot to the point where you do get that "dispirited" feeling when you lose him is oddly what keeps me flying in SP (and why I don't like the scripted campaigns as much as the career mode).

  

You nailed it. This was what I learned 30 years ago, playing RB2-3D and went on to become my "Anti Air-Quake Policy" for online play (DiD). 200 signed-up members in an online-war I ran for over a year with the original IL2. Happy days.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Hetzer-JG51