Ok iar80

[FuriousMeow]

9 minutes ago, pencon said:

By the time it gets done , what if the pre paid info gets lost in the shuffle ? I didn't get an actual receipt , ya know ? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, it's in your profile if you actually did pre-order it.

 

 

[pencon]

I did the pre pay and I don't see it on my profile .

 

[Zooropa_Fly]

I don't think the crux of the complaints here are about how long it takes 1 or 2 people to create a plane in their spare time.

They're more about pre-paying for something 2 years before you get it.

[ACG_Bussard]

Understand the disappointment with the delayed pre-orders of the IAR 80 very well.

 

I find it astonishing when internals against producers who are no longer in charge are publicly voiced as reasons without the person in question having commented on this. Quite cheap. As a result, for us there is only 1C-777 as the only developer and publisher, no matter which person is responsible now. I'm glad I didn't place a pre-order for IAR 80.

 

After my lesson with pre-ordering FC 2, I won´t take place a pre-order in the future until just before release. That's when you know when and what you're getting. No more pig in a poke ?

 

[Lusekofte]

They got to do better in public relations. 
Waiting for something is normal in this genre. 
But if there is a bottleneck or a problem causing a 1 year delay, it should be announced.  

[DBS]

8 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

 

Good.

Then feel free to take your ball and go home.

 

As a 3D aircraft modeler/developer...I can tell you that it's a very, very  long road...a slog. It's tedious, often frustrating, it takes most of your free time, and it get's done when it get's done. Especially when you have a job and a life away from the workstation. I work on this stuff about 3 hours a night, maybe 5 nights a week modeling (or developing missions) I don't even get to fly except for rare occasions because I simply don't have time.  I'm sure it's the same for these guys. This stuff takes forever...it just does.

 

Meanwhile, all you have to do (horror of horrors) is go about your life, fly when you have time,  and wait until an aircraft is done, then enjoy it.

So do that...and put a sock in it.

 

 

 

 

 

Calm down, kid.

[ACG_Bussard]

I know that waiting is normal in this genre, doing in flightsims more then 20 years (with some breaks because of real life demandings), but it´s easier to wait without any pre-investment. ?

 

I fully agree with you, that they should improve in public relations. The guy from across the ocean did this quite well in the past. ?

 

[Art-J]

4 hours ago, pencon said:

I did the pre pay and I don't see it on my profile .

 

It might mean the pre-order didn't go through after all. Check your bank / paypal / whatever transfer history, download confirmation and contact support here. Better do it now than at the end of the year.

[ICDP]

Only speaking for myself here but I could spend 3-5 hours per night every weekday and double that at weekends over many months to do the main textures, normal maps, alpha channels, damage textures, parts textures etc. that’s before you even take into account weeks of research before putting a pixel on a virtual canvas.

 

Jason once asked how many hours I was putting in on these projects. I genuinely could not even guess because when I tried it scared me how many hours I was “working”. The truth is I enjoy it so much and seeing it progress from a blank grey 3D model to a completed texture. I could literally spend hours just working on these and look up to see it’s 1am.  I could barely call it work as it’s more of a hobby.

 

Then there is the perfectionist in me that redoes a lot of work because “that panel line is off by 4 pixels”.

 

I imagine the 3D modelling part is even more labour intensive.

 

I wish it was close to release and I don’t feel entitled to claim I am more disappointed than most. Because I want everyone to see the work and passion we have put in on this. I understand the frustration but this is 100% not an intentional outcome. Honest decisions were made based on  best guess assumptions.

[BMA_FlyingShark]

I'm sure it'll be worth the wait when the plane finally gets ready.

 

Have a nice day.

 

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

3 hours ago, 2./JG3_Bussard* said:

Understand the disappointment with the delayed pre-orders of the IAR 80 very well.

 

I find it astonishing when internals against producers who are no longer in charge are publicly voiced as reasons without the person in question having commented on this. Quite cheap. As a result, for us there is only 1C-777 as the only developer and publisher, no matter which person is responsible now. I'm glad I didn't place a pre-order for IAR 80.

 

After my lesson with pre-ordering FC 2, I won´t take place a pre-order in the future until just before release. That's when you know when and what you're getting. No more pig in a poke ?

 

 

3 hours ago, Lusekofte said:

They got to do better in public relations. 
Waiting for something is normal in this genre. 
But if there is a bottleneck or a problem causing a 1 year delay, it should be announced.  

 

Yeah this. Absolutely this. The way they handle public relations is astonishingly bad most of the time. Ignoring issues and giving no sign of life forever until bang, it explodes, they act irritated and make puzzling declarations. 

[Rjel]

5 hours ago, 2./JG3_Bussard* said:

I find it astonishing when internals against producers who are no longer in charge are publicly voiced as reasons without the person in question having commented on this. Quite cheap. As a result, for us there is only 1C-777 as the only developer and publisher, no matter which person is responsible now. 

Gotta agree. There’s been a couple times since Jason’s departure where current team members statements have pointed towards some seeming animosity lingering. Not very professional. 

[Missionbug]

3 hours ago, ICDP said:

I imagine the 3D modelling part is even more labour intensive.

 

I have both skinned and made 3d models as that tends to go hand in glove so to speak as you also need to map it and paint it in some way, purely as a hobby as I am not a professional in any way, and can vouch for that statement ICDP as would Gambit21 I think who also does the same for hobby/work.

 

Not only do you need to make the actual model itself but in our sim there are the damage models that go with it and also the lods, for someone who is fully fit which I am not, it is difficult enough and to say it is a time consuming and tedious pastime would be an understatement, picking the right model helps to at least get it finished in some form usually, doing it for a living would I think be a true ordeal by fire to say the least.

 

You have to love the subject matter to even be mad enough to try.

 

On top of the actual build there is that exposing the work to public scrutiny, that can break any man or women like nothing else, if anyone is given the opportunity to work on one of the major sims for a living then you have to hand it to them for being truly capable individuals, if they are then actually asked to submit and have their work accepted as being passed fit for scrutiny of the rivet counters et al they are truly amazing craftsmen/women able to bring to life those famous old vehicles of any sort.

 

Not to mention those disciples of the black art of coding and FM making that manage to get it all moving and shaking once it is built and painted.

 

Take care and be safe.

 

Wishing you all the very best, Pete.

Edited February 8, 2023 by Missionbug

[DBS]

28 minutes ago, Rjel said:

Gotta agree. There’s been a couple times since Jason’s departure where current team members statements have pointed towards some seeming animosity lingering. Not very professional. 

 

Agree with this, it seems Jason was seen as a necessary evil. Whereas the fact is he saved their jobs and they hate to be reminded of that.

[Han]

16 hours ago, Lusekofte said:

I am in fact a little pissed off not getting the message Han gave us before. 
here we sit waiting for it. All they had to do was saying what he did when they knew. 
It is not being spoiled. What we are dealing with is absolute rubbish customer treatment. 
They should give this information when they have it. 

 

So like I've did. Honestly - only now I have at least some estimations on the finalizing. And in basis - it ok while it's made by enthusiasts. What is not ok - is to start the preorder for enthusiasts project so early. It's would be ok to start it when enthusiasts have finished their part of work and only internal development (which is predictable enough) is remained. In future we plan to act only this way while team is in agreement that it's only right way.

 

So it's not enthusiasts issue - they doing a great work while it's just a part time job for them. At leats IAR looking very good and it have good historical corresponding.

It's issue of marketing. So marketing will change a lot to not repeat those old mistakes.

[Han]

49 minutes ago, DBS said:

Whereas the fact is he saved their jobs and they hate to be reminded of that.

 

I don't like how you drawing the team like a band of sheeps which is useless without shepherd.

 

We saved ourselves by pushing the Kuban idea instead of another "like previous" project. It was team idea and team have pushed it to the decision to do something looking brand-new. Second producer have supported this idea - offcourse it was helpfull. But I dunno who said you that someone "have saved us", it's not corresponding to what was there. Yes, there were troubles, but team have produced the solution, not some kind of messiah.

 

So please, stay away from spreading this fake info.

[Lusekofte]

@Han I am not really pissed. But I sort of believed it was just around the corner. 
now I know there is a possibility within a year. 
And that is ok 

[Han]

2 minutes ago, Lusekofte said:

@Han I am not really pissed. 

Honestly - in this case I think you have full right to be so. This should not happen again.

[Gambit21]

I think especially with 3rd party work, these things will take a while.

First, the person will likely have a full time job and the aircraft (or map etc) will be a 'free time' evening job.

Second, because the individual is not keeping to a normal release schedule, he's free to take extra time on the aircraft etc that normally isn't possible during a normal release cycle. So it's a positive thing, even if it means you'll wait longer for a particular item.

 

 

 

[Wardog5711]

I have already deleted a couple of posts that are getting personal. Lets not have anymore.  

This topic is already touchy enough, but an answer for what has happened has been provided and a change of course for the future has been identified.

 

[Trooper117]

Han identified the issue, owned up to the mistake, now taken steps to rectify, then informed us all it won't happen again... case closed! Time to move on chaps.

[[CPT]Crunch]

What does it need textures on it for to work on its flight model?  Dog ate my homework too.

[BlitzPig_EL]

You are going to need textures to animate all the instruments, for one thing.

[[CPT]Crunch]

Yes, but plain old simple filler would do, why the need to complete it in detail prior to even starting, if you ever set out to deliberately drag something out to death.....

[FuriousMeow]

Probably to make sure the model is 100% done by the 3rd party team before putting in-house effort into the flight model. What happens if the third party developer suddenly doesn't finish it? In-house development time wasted on the FM.

 

And before anyone complains about "if development stopped and never finished," I'm sure we'd get refunds for those that pre-ordered.

[BraveSirRobin]

3 minutes ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

if you ever set out to deliberately drag something out to death.....

For what possible purpose?

[Gambit21]

34 minutes ago, FuriousMeow said:

Probably to make sure the model is 100% done by the 3rd party team before putting in-house effort into the flight model. What happens if the third party developer suddenly doesn't finish it? In-house development time wasted on the FM.

 

Ding ding

 

 

[Missionbug]

1 hour ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

What does it need textures on it for to work on its flight model?

Not sure for all 3d models but those I have made need to have at least a basic colour baked to the mesh to allow the model to show in sim/game and those developing the flight model would I think need to see the behaviour of the model in its intended environment as they develop the FM, besides that with at least a basic comouflage scheme the modeller can determine if there are any inconsistensies in the work, for example misaligned vertices of a texture will look truly awful when shown up by the skin so it pays to deal with that as early as possible before the project is too far along as the customer expects perfection. Finish the model first complete and others can then go ahead with peace of mind knowing that a particular area is finished so they can concentrate on what is still to do, we have already seen the issue with the C-47 having to have new textures made for it because of 3d alterations so better to deal with one thing first before progressing further.

 

As noted by Han, maybe the issue here was releasing the project to pre-order too early, so lesson learned I guess, as there is nothing more frustrating for the customer to know than the project will take much longer than they imagined, it is frustrating and can lead to less people committing to such again which ultimately has a big impact on future development cash especially for new and unusual types that might not normally find their way into the title.

 

Take care and be safe.

 

Wishing you all the very best, Pete.

Edited February 8, 2023 by Missionbug

[Gambit21]

Meow had it right - Han is just being smart. He knows anything can happen.

 

 

Nothing against the guys working on this project, but the Devs can’t afford to invest recourses until they have a finished (and in this case, textured) model.

Not sure where rigging stands.

[ICDP]

Meow and Gambit are correct in their assessment but there is also the fact that if the 3D model has to be changed it can affect the FM substantially.  If the wing has to be moved forward in the model, or stretched a bit, that changes how the FM and the plane looks when flying. For example the plane rotates on a funny axis, or sits totally wrong on the ground. Not to mention you now have to change the 2D textures as they are warped or no longer wrap correctly over the joins.

 

So there are many reason why it is preferable that the FM cannot be started until the 3D model is 100% final.  Same for the textures. A change in the 3D model requires a rework of the FM and the textures and it is actually counterproductive to begin doing an FM before the model is complete. You are not saving time, you are potentially just creating more work.

[[CPT]Crunch]

Zero flexibility, never give a single inch, even when the case is your advertised product is a year behind, great business model, inspires real confidence. 

 

Don't know about a ball, but my wallet suddenly snapped shut quite a bit tighter, I don't have to give any leeway either.

[ICDP]

20 minutes ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

Zero flexibility, never give a single inch, even when the case is your advertised product is a year behind, great business model, inspires real confidence. 

 

Don't know about a ball, but my wallet suddenly snapped shut quite a bit tighter, I don't have to give any leeway either.

Apologise but if you are replying to me I am not a dev and have no control on the business model.  All I am doing is putting some perspective on this from where I am positioned.

 

You are of course well within your rights to choose how to spend your money.

Edited February 8, 2023 by ICDP

[Gambit21]

3 hours ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

Zero flexibility, never give a single inch, even when the case is your advertised product is a year behind, great business model, inspires real confidence. 

 

Don't know about a ball, but my wallet suddenly snapped shut quite a bit tighter, I don't have to give any leeway either.

 

It's not behind...it was simply announced too early, and pre-orders taken too early in the process.

As far as being more flexible, or 'giving another inch' there is really nothing for anyone to do other than for these 2 dedicated individuals to keep dedicating their time to the project as they've been doing, and for Daniel and the boys to pick up the ball when it's ready. The end.

 

 

 

[pencon]

Ok Han ,  how can my profile show if my prepay was registered ? I can give a screenshot of my PayPal payment.  I just don't see it on my profile .

 

[Wardog5711]

@pencon
Just sent you a PM.

 

[pencon]

Ok thanks I contacted them.

 

[Irishratticus72]

On 2/8/2023 at 8:29 AM, 2./JG3_Bussard* said:

Understand the disappointment with the delayed pre-orders of the IAR 80 very well.

 

I find it astonishing when internals against producers who are no longer in charge are publicly voiced as reasons without the person in question having commented on this. Quite cheap. As a result, for us there is only 1C-777 as the only developer and publisher, no matter which person is responsible now. I'm glad I didn't place a pre-order for IAR 80.

 

After my lesson with pre-ordering FC 2, I won´t take place a pre-order in the future until just before release. That's when you know when and what you're getting. No more pig in a poke ?

 

I preordered Cyberpunk 2077. Never again....

 

[BladeMeister]

On 2/7/2023 at 4:51 AM, ICDP said:

It's a balance to be honest.  The IAR 80 is an ethusiast project and my guess (and I stress guess) is that Jason put it for pre-order to help motivate the guys working on it.  I have worked with Ivan on this and I can tell we are working very diligantly with the rest of the team to get the AR80 completed and released.

 

I know people have a right to be disappointed but the team are working to get this fine little plane released.

 

Here is a teaser and I hope the devs allow this as it has not been approved, I just want to see this thread go in a nicer direction.

 

While I was a bit surprised that the IAR 80 is taking so long, knowing ICDP's reputation for quality work I feel like this little gem will be well worth the wait. Keep up the good work gentlemen, she is looking spectacular. Thank you for all the hours you both are putting into this project.

 

S!Blade<><

Edited February 10, 2023 by BladeMeister

[FeuerFliegen]

On 2/8/2023 at 3:29 AM, 2./JG3_Bussard* said:

After my lesson with pre-ordering FC 2, I won´t take place a pre-order in the future until just before release.

 

I now fully understand why they offered a $20 discount, instead of the normal $10 discount, if you pre-ordered the same week it was initially announced.  Man that was a long time ago.

[dburne]

2 hours ago, SCG_FeuerFliegen said:

 

I now fully understand why they offered a $20 discount, instead of the normal $10 discount, if you pre-ordered the same week it was initially announced.  Man that was a long time ago.

 

Yes it was and man a lot of things have certainly changed since then...