The DM needs a bit of a tweak on the Spitfire Vb

[JG7_X-Man]

The damage model depicted on the right wing is the issue: 

 

           

 

The small holes aren't in question, the big hole is though... I am not sure that right cannon should still be firing, if indeed the hit box logic has been implemented on the Spit Vb.

 

Below is a cutout of the Spit Vb and it's safe to say that at the least, that 20mm round (based on the relative size of the hole) would have destroyed that gun barrel.

 

 

That said, the damage depiction does look on point.

 

 

 

Edited January 17, 2023 by JG7_X-Man

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

The damage model just doesn't take this sort of thing into account on any plane...

[the_emperor]

The damage model is currently very limited in what it can display, as most aircraft lack the internal systems that can be damaged/destroyed.

And it probably will always be that way as it would need to rework all aircraft models to implement the internal systems.

That may be because it roots are in a WWI game which aircrafts did not have any complex internal systems.

But it still lacks the complexity of the CloD series e.g.

[Regingrave-]

10 часов назад, drewm3i-VR сказал:

The damage model just doesn't take this sort of thing into account on any plane...

It does, plane weapons can be damaged.

 

17.01.2023 в 02:07, JG7_X-Man сказал:

Below is a cutout of the Spit Vb and it's safe to say that at the least, that 20mm round (based on the relative size of the hole) would have destroyed that gun barrel.

It may as well simply damage the skin without doing much damage to the more solid parts of the plane, and that is exactly the case.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

1 hour ago, Regingrave said:

It does, plane weapons can be damaged

Yes , but it's rare, I presume the true  result of this probability calculation is happening too rarely. That's why so many people think the gun damage do not exist.

[Regingrave-]

12 минут назад, 1PL-Husar-1Esk сказал:

Yes , but it's rare, I presume the true  result of this probability calculation is happening too rarely. That's why so many people think the gun damage do not exist.

It's not a probability, there are collisions that can be shot to damage the gun. As well as ammo, that sometimes could explode when hit.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

5 minutes ago, Regingrave said:

It's not a probability, there are collisions that can be shot to damage the gun. As well as ammo, that sometimes could explode when hit.

Great did not know that gun has own hitboxes. I wish WW1 spars could have own too

Edited February 14, 2023 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[JG7_X-Man]

I say we support the developers with all their up coming projects so they can use the money and invest in a new game engine!

Fact is this one has reached it's useful life, time to bite the bullet and move on.

[JG7_X-Man]

5 hours ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

Yes , but it's rare, I presume the true  result of this probability calculation is happening too rarely. That's why so many people think the gun damage do not exist.

 

I agree, the probability would be rare indeed - however, I my observed case a fighter loosing one of it's two primary weapons would be significantly impaired in combat and it's probability of return to record such damage would be low.

 

 

The probability of a head shot should be just as low, but we all know that's not the case.

 

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

20 hours ago, Regingrave said:

It does, plane weapons can be damaged.

 

It may as well simply damage the skin without doing much damage to the more solid parts of the plane, and that is exactly the case.

I have played this game for probably 3-5,000 hours at least and I cannot recall one time experiencing an overheating, jammed, or otherwise inoperable gun/cannon. Yes, i have seen/experienced the ammo belt explosions. The only exception to this is in Flying Circus in my experience. 

Edited February 15, 2023 by drewm3i-VR

[Regingrave-]

16 часов назад, JG7_X-Man сказал:

The probability of a head shot should be just as low, but we all know that's not the case.

It shouldn't be any higher or lower than a pilot's head size as a target, because it has a hitbox too.

 

3 часа назад, drewm3i-VR сказал:

I have played this game for probably 3-5,000 hours at least and I cannot recall one time experiencing an overheating, jammed, or otherwise inoperable gun/cannon.

Continuous fire from any weapon will result in overheating and jam with certainity. Try holding the trigger for 10-15 seconds.

[Enceladus828]

@LukeFF Can you please stop using the laughing emoji every time somebody mentions CloD in a thread and it has relevance to the subject of the thread.

 

Seriously man, what’s so funny about what the_emperor posted and what was so funny in the thread about including early British radar in IL-2 GBs where I said if it’s not already in CloD we’ll probably get it there because IL-2 GBs doesn’t cover the Battle of Britain?

[LukeFF]

10 hours ago, Enceladus said:

@LukeFF Can you please stop using the laughing emoji every time somebody mentions CloD in a thread and it has relevance to the subject of the thread.

 

Seriously man, what’s so funny about what the_emperor posted and what was so funny in the thread about including early British radar in IL-2 GBs where I said if it’s not already in CloD we’ll probably get it there because IL-2 GBs doesn’t cover the Battle of Britain?

 

Because I get tired of people posting about CloD in this part of the forum as if that game's development has any bearing on what happens here with IL2 GB. It's an old game with old code being kept on life support by a third-party team. If people want to sing its praises then by all means do so, but do it in the CloD subforum.

Edited February 15, 2023 by LukeFF

[Enceladus828]

3 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

Because I get tired of people posting about CloD in this part of the forum as if that game's development has any bearing on what happens here with IL2 GB. It's an old game with old code being kept on life support by a third-party team. If people want to sing it praises then by all means do so, but do it in the CloD subforum.

Dude, what myself and the_emperor posted wasn't derailing the threads in question, CloD was casually mentioned and the game had some relevance to the topic or what somebody in the thread previously posted.

 

I think that you're being a bit too harsh on people in that you believe it's forbidden to talk about CloD or even say 'CloD' in the IL-2 GBs section of the forum. I mean, do you laugh at people when they bring up IL-2 1946 and any other game on this section of the forum when it has relevance to the thread?

[BraveSirRobin]

9 minutes ago, Enceladus said:

Dude, what myself and the_emperor posted wasn't derailing the threads in question, CloD was casually mentioned and the game had some relevance to the topic or what somebody in the thread previously posted.

 

‘The OP is about an issue in the GB damage model.  CloD damage model is completely irrelevant.

[Enceladus828]

1 hour ago, BraveSirRobin said:

‘The OP is about an issue in the GB damage model.  CloD damage model is completely irrelevant.

Nope, the_emperor was stating that why the IL-2 GBs DM is limited may be that it has its roots in RoF while CloD has its roots in IL-2 1946 and therefore its DM is more detailed. It's a very subtle reference to CloD, so no need to laugh at someone's post.

[BraveSirRobin]

11 minutes ago, Enceladus said:

Nope, the_emperor was stating that why the IL-2 GBs DM is limited may be that it has its roots in RoF while CloD has its roots in IL-2 1946 and therefore its DM is more detailed. It's a very subtle reference to CloD, so no need to laugh at someone's post.

CloD and RoF are both completely irrelevant to this thread.  In fact, the primary reason why RoF aircraft were not originally ported into the GB world is that the damage model is completely different.  So, while RoF might seem related, it isn’t.  CloD was never relevant in any way.  None whatsoever.

[FuriousMeow]

I've seen CloD planes land and proceed to taxi missing a wing and rear fuselage, the game isn't as great as some present it. Il2 GB aircraft have plenty of internal systems. The fuel system would just need a way to turn off individual fuel tanks, as currently all fuel tanks and location are modeled just not the ability to stop leaking because fuel tanks can't be shut down. The other thing is a "hydraulics" system, which isn't nearly as advanced as some think in CloD. The models themselves in Il-2GB don't have to be changed to modify the damage model, the damage model is completely invisible and does not rely on the 3D model.

 

As far as the damage model being simple, there's plenty of aspects that can be damaged in GB. Of course its easy to concentrate on a DM when the rest of the game was left in shambles.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

10 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:

In fact, the primary reason why RoF aircraft were not originally ported into the GB world is that the damage model is completely different

Never heard of it. I read what was needed to change in porting from RoF  and added but not a word about dm model. 

Edited February 16, 2023 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[Regingrave-]

17.01.2023 в 02:07, JG7_X-Man сказал:

The small holes aren't in question, the big hole is though... I am not sure that right cannon should still be firing, if indeed the hit box logic has been implemented on the Spit Vb.

On the second glance, we probably should take a look at the gun durability. Thank you for the notice.

UPD: Gun durability seems fine, one or two direct hits with AP rounds should silence the gun for certain, it's simply hard to hit precisely. And HE rounds are not very effective because they're detonate on the surface and the number and energy of fragments in most cases are not enough to disable the gun, although it can be hit and damaged by them.

[the_emperor]

1 hour ago, Regingrave said:

HE rounds are not very effective because they're detonate on the surface and the number and energy of fragments in most cases are not enough to disable the gun, although it can be hit and damaged by them.

I hope you dont mind but I have two questions regarding your answer:

1) is the delay modeled for the German HE shell

2) shoulnt the blast damage of 18g Ha41 (~ factor of 1.5 relativ TNT effectivness) be enough to do some damage as this shell does not rely on frag damage but on blast damage (in contrast to the Allied/Soviet~6g of HE filling)? 

Edited February 16, 2023 by the_emperor

[CUJO_1970]

6 hours ago, Regingrave said:

UPD: Gun durability seems fine, one or two direct hits with AP rounds should silence the gun for certain, it's simply hard to hit precisely. And HE rounds are not very effective because they're detonate on the surface and the number and energy of fragments in most cases are not enough to disable the gun, although it can be hit and damaged by them.

 

Sorry, but this is just completely wrong and not supported by RAF own testing with German 20MM. The shell had a delay fuse designed specifically to avoid detonating outside of the aircraft. They were designed to explode inside the aircraft structure and cause damage by chemical/gas pressure as well as fragmentary damage.

 

When an Oerlikon shell burst, it fragmented into thousands of pieces which varied in weight from less than 1 mg. to 20 gm. (fig. 140). However, the largest number of "effective" Oerlikon shell fragments bursting in an area 5 feet in diameter and capable of causing incapacitation to the person exposed was 260. The majority of those 260 fragments weighed between 10 and 50 mg., and their velocity varied between 400 and 600 m.p.s. (meters per second)."  (source: http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksdocs/wwii/actvssurgconvol2/chapter4.htm )

Fragments from the exploding shells injured both of Dunlop-Urie's legs in spite of the fact that the closest hit was several feet away.  This illustrates the advantage of the German cannon armament compared to the contemporary British choice of rifle caliber 0.303" machine guns whose bullets would only damage objects in their path.

Looking at X4110's right side, one can see the large number of small fragment holes resulting from the cannon shell detonations.  The damage from gunfire and the resulting heavy landing was so severe that the aircraft was deemed beyond repair and was struck off charge less than an hour after taking off on its first combat flight, making it apparently the shortest serving aircraft in the Royal Air Force during the Second World War.

 

 

There is virtually ZERO chance the Spitfires gun would remain operable following a direct hit as shown in the original screen.

 

 

 

 

[Regingrave-]

21 час назад, the_emperor сказал:

I hope you dont mind but I have two questions regarding your answer:

1) is the delay modeled for the German HE shell

2) shoulnt the blast damage of 18g Ha41 (~ factor of 1.5 relativ TNT effectivness) be enough to do some damage as this shell does not rely on frag damage but on blast damage (in contrast to the Allied/Soviet~6g of HE filling)? 

Pressure of the explosion is indeed considered.

 

16 часов назад, CUJO_1970 сказал:

There is virtually ZERO chance the Spitfires gun would remain operable following a direct hit as shown in the original screen.

That's a speculative statement.

 

16 часов назад, CUJO_1970 сказал:

Sorry, but this is just completely wrong and not supported by RAF own testing with German 20MM. The shell had a delay fuse designed specifically to avoid detonating outside of the aircraft. They were designed to explode inside the aircraft structure and cause damage by chemical/gas pressure as well as fragmentary damage.

You've missed the second part of my post about the mass and energy of the fragments, which of course is calculated and considered against the durability of various plane parts. No, that small pellets can't do much damage to the solid body of the cannon, especially through the plane's superstructure.

Our damage model is based on physics and solid numbers, not on impressions of «catastrophic damage».

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

@Regingraveso there is no chance do damage the FC airplanes guns by standard bullets use by other FC  aircraft?

BTW players noticed increase in accuracy of Spandau MG 08 AA even on low AI skill. This maybe something to be look at.

[CUJO_1970]

On 2/17/2023 at 7:27 AM, Regingrave said:

Pressure of the explosion is indeed considered.

 

You mean considered as exploding harmlessly on the aircraft's skin. You said: "HE rounds are not very effective because they're detonate on the surface"

Which is simply contrary to the way the MG151 round functioned. It is delay-fused to explode internally.

 

On 2/17/2023 at 7:27 AM, Regingrave said:

That's a speculative statement.

 

It's common sense, based on data. Data that includes the chemical content and power of the round, the hit location and proximity to the gun barrel, the delayed fuse design of the round, and practical experience that is clearly documented on actual battle damaged aircraft.

 

On 2/17/2023 at 7:27 AM, Regingrave said:

You've missed the second part of my post about the mass and energy of the fragments, which of course is calculated and considered against the durability of various plane parts. No, that small pellets can't do much damage to the solid body of the cannon, especially through the plane's superstructure.

Our damage model is based on physics and solid numbers, not on impressions of «catastrophic damage».

 

I've not missed the second part of your post. You are simply wrong - because you think the round in question explodes on the aircraft's skin (false) and relies primarily on fragmentary damage (also false).

 

In the case above, gas pressure blew fragments through the aircraft structure and out the other side six feet away from where the round entered the fuselage and >>detonated inside<<. They also injured the pilot in the legs and feet. Yet, the fragmentary damage are purely secondary to the gas pressure/chemical blast damage expended in an MG 151 burst, which in practice damaged aircraft structures and blew actual human beings apart inside their aircraft.

 

We have many actual examples of this type of damage, so there really is no need to speculate:

 

 

The gun is damaged or no? damaged by splinters...or gas pressure?

 

Another well known incident occurred shortly after D-Day with Col Hubert Zemke with 56th FG. The damage below is the result of a 20mm cannon fired from a 109 into the left ammunition bay of Zemke's P-47. Zemke was extremely fortunate to survive this encounter:

 

 

Did the round explode harmlessly on the skin or did it penetrate the wing and explode inside the aircraft? Did the weapon system continue to function normally? The truth is in both pics multiple guns were rendered inoperable or destroyed altogether by a 20mm cannon round...which is exactly what should happen in example shown in OP. The Hispano canon should have been rendered inoperable in the least, and most likely destroyed altogether.

 

OP is correct. The gun barrel should have been destroyed, considering the proximity of the hit - just as the practical evidence shows.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ZachariasX]

On 2/16/2023 at 1:40 PM, Regingrave said:

UPD: Gun durability seems fine, one or two direct hits with AP rounds should silence the gun for certain, it's simply hard to hit precisely. And HE rounds are not very effective because they're detonate on the surface

No. They detonate ~20 cm past the first contact triggering the fuze. I‘ve seen ballistic demonstrators (stacked sheets of aluminum) done by Oerlikon back in the time. It would not be smart making them go off on contact. You‘d be actively minimizing damage. Cujo has a point.

 

The DVD is indeed convincing, as you often can see a ~20 to 30 cm diameter hole torn in the skin from the internal explosion. As shown on the pic above or on ballistic demonstrators. It is quiet a consistent result.

 

20 mm cannon barrels are not that massive of a structure (they are not built to tolerate hits, they are just barely strong enough tolerating the stress from firing them) and getting a direct hit by a 20 mm that is not certain to have gone off yet will make further use of that gun a risky proposition. That is where the barrel might well come off. Beyond 50 cm after the fuze is initially set off, I wouldn‘t expect too much damage on the barrel. In that case, when a larger shell fragment (like the base) directly hits the barrel by chance, the gun might get compromised. But chances here are much lower.

 

I assume that the damage decals around the magazine are generic and not DVD decals. Those drum mags don‘t need help to jam, and having it shot somewhat would have a guaranteed result.

[the_emperor]

I think the delay for the German HE-Shells is not modelled in the game.

Though that hit may not be able the destroy the barrel, it certainly would damage the mounting and/or the gas piston system rendering it non functional or hanging loosely in the mounting . But I dont think, that the DM can display such detail of damage

Edited February 19, 2023 by the_emperor

[JG7_RudeRaptor]

On 1/16/2023 at 5:07 PM, JG7_X-Man said:

The damage model depicted on the right wing is the issue: 

 

           

 

The small holes aren't in question, the big hole is though... I am not sure that right cannon should still be firing, if indeed the hit box logic has been implemented on the Spit Vb.

 

Below is a cutout of the Spit Vb and it's safe to say that at the least, that 20mm round (based on the relative size of the hole) would have destroyed that gun barrel.

 

 

That said, the damage depiction does look on point.

 

 

 

 

I always wondered about this. Seeing some of these wing-cannon planes including the FW with giant holes in the wing and not suffer any gun damage. Remember X backing the day EAW modeled Gun jamming? High speed maneuvers with high G's whiles guns a blazing ...forget about it. Imagine the reaction if the implemented in this DM. Ha!

[the_emperor]

There should probably three kinds of damages possible to the weapon systems:

1) gun destroyed/inoperable

2) gun nocked out of mounting/ mounting damaged -> no longer aligned 

3) amobelt cut (if not detonated)-> stop to feed the gun

 

But I guess only the first option is currently an option as the others would need a detailed DM 

Edited May 4, 2023 by the_emperor

[Roland_HUNter]

Fun facts:
You can disable you 20mm gun with 6-12 pistol shot from the cabin.(.45 cal Colt)

You can shot off your own elevator with 8-12 pistol shot from the cabin. (.45 cal Colt) (only the left one)

If you lose the left elevator: your elevator gonna max out to UP not matter what are you try to do..
If you lose the right elevator: your elevator gonna max out to DOWN not matter what are you try to do.

[CUJO_1970]

The RAF was able to detonate the 20mm in the Spitfire wing with .303 rounds.