Best fighters for 1 circle fight (nose to nose)

[Youtch]

I have been flying Bf109 G6 Late for a while, and I am under the impression it performs really good in most of the 1 circle fights and the following scissors.

 

I used to fly Fw190 and love their roll rate for scissors, but now I am under the impression that Bf109 G6 Late (with a little bit of rudder help to roll) can get some real agressive break turn. This is certainly due to its fantastic nose authority and the edge slats limiting the risk of stalling when pulling hard.

 

I feel it allows shots not possible with a Fw190, and make it a very dangerous opponent in scissors and reversals situation.

 

I was wandering:

- Which are the best contenders in the game for 1 circle fight.

- Which are the best contenders for scissors.

- Which are the best contenders for nose authority

 

After 2 years flying, I am starting to get better results in MP, scoring for the first time 4 kills yesterday over 3 sorties.

But I feel that I have still to learn a lot, maybe some more experienced players can bring some insight in this topic.

 

 

For a reminder of the theory:

I am talking about nose to nose fight, not nose to tail, hence what matters is the turn radius, not turn rate.

 

 

Many thanks in advance,

y.

Edited January 2, 2023 by Youtch
Reworded to avoid confusion

[[LeLv34]Lykurgos88]

Sure, I would take a FW-190 to any scissor fight, but mostly because of armament and roll rate. FW-190 need to be handled carefully at low speeds and especially FW-190 A8 will give you a bad time if the maneuver lasts too long. The energy bleed is real.

 

Still overall, I think La-5FN would be the ultimate king in scissor fights, especially at low altitude. The roll rate is insane and the energy retention is better. La-7 with B20 should be even better in the future...

 

When it comes to 1 circle fights, Spitfire IX is the way to go. Spitfire XIV is even better in some cases but not as forgiving. The problem of course is the armament placement. I suggest convergence of 230 meters with Gyro sight set to 250 yards. This way they are "roughly" the same.

 

Spitfires are not as easy to fly as Bf-109s. For 90% of pilots I strongly suggest using Clipped Wings for Spits. They make Spitfires somewhat easier to control and you will avoid more sudden spins. The only thing you lose is a bit of turn rate fighting ability, but the difference is surprisingly small.

[[CPT]Crunch]

Thing about 109's is they're great throttle fighters, you can throw the throttle to extremes without much worry, not so much in a spit, especially a 14.  That said a guy in a Spit 14 who knows how to one circle fight using higher end speeds is a real threat and has all the initiative.  While you slow down he just grabs advantage fighting for a controlling position and not going for a quick shot, its than you know your in trouble.  Fortunately not many 14 pilots do, they try throttling to match throwing their power advantage away.

[purK]

7 hours ago, Youtch said:

I was wandering:

- Which are the best contenders in the game for 1 circle fight.

- Which are the best contenders for scissors.

- Which are the best contenders for nose authority

-P39
-P39
-P39

?

[Guest deleted@83466]

 

17 minutes ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

Thing about 109's is they're great throttle fighters, you can throw the throttle to extremes without much worry, not so much in a spit, especially a 14.  That said a guy in a Spit 14 who knows how to one circle fight using higher end speeds is a real threat and has all the initiative.  While you slow down he just grabs advantage fighting for a controlling position and not going for a quick shot, its than you know your in trouble.  Fortunately not many 14 pilots do, they try throttling to match throwing their power advantage away.

If I were in any Spit, I’d stick to a two circle fight where turn rate is king, not smaller radius.

[[CPT]Crunch]

Not so easy to do when 109's have an excellent ability to throw in a vertical option when you decide to commit everything into a turn.

[Alexmarine]

15 minutes ago, Krupnski said:

-P39
-P39
-P39

?

 

The connoisseurs choice , if the Allison engine wasn't made out of glass I bet even more people would fly it...

[CUJO_1970]

10 hours ago, Youtch said:

 

I used to fly Fw190 and love their roll rate for scissors,

Imagine more people would fly FW190 if it had it’s historically correct roll rate, instead of the castrated roll rate it currently has. 

[Jaegermeister]

Fokker DR.I

 

[Avimimus]

Was the whole one circle vs. two circle fight - and radius vs. rate fighter - thing developed in WWII? Isn't it a bit anachronistic?

 

Moreover, shouldn't it be a bit anachronistic? Do WWII fighters really have the thrust to weight ratios to make this ACM paradigm the best way of approaching things?

 

P.S. WWI aircraft definitely do not... I've been thinking a lot about how everything we think we know about WWI ACM might be wrong...

[Guest deleted@83466]

You’re thinking about something like an F-16 having the power to make a sustained turn that also happens to be its maximum turn rate within the pilot’s and airframe’s G limits. We aren’t going to be getting sustained 6G corner speeds in piston aircraft unless it’s a death spiral downward, because as you say, we don’t have the power.   But here, it’s about I either can get a superior turn rate than my opponent within the parameters of the fight, and get my nose on his tail, OR if not, maybe I have a smaller turn radius, and I go nose to nose. My nose comes back to the merge point faster than my opponent, and I get the shot. That’s just how the geometry works. Scissors is essentially the same principle.  So yes, it applies.  Applies to WW1, just as well.

 

 

1 hour ago, Avimimus said:

Was the whole one circle vs. two circle fight - and radius vs. rate fighter - thing developed in WWII? Isn't it a bit anachronistic?

 

Moreover, shouldn't it be a bit anachronistic? Do WWII fighters really have the thrust to weight ratios to make this ACM paradigm the best way of approaching things?

 

P.S. WWI aircraft definitely do not... I've been thinking a lot about how everything we think we know about WWI ACM might be wrong...

 

Edited December 31, 2022 by SeaSerpent

[Avimimus]

I see what you are getting at but... well, here are a few hypotheses:

(1) Drag and energy loss is a much larger consideration (i.e. it is easier for an aircraft which loses less altitude in a turn to get an energy advantage).

 

(2) Differences between maximum turn rates and sustained turn rates are greater (often due to a greater need to avoid energy loss).

 

(3) Roll rates are often much lower (meaning differences in roll rate are more consequential, and thus open up more strategies for some asymmetric opponents).

 

In WWI aircraft these issues reach their extremes. I'd go so far as to say that they come to dominate ACM (often being more important than maximum turn rates) and we see this in the accounts of WWI pilots - but have been largely deaf to it due to our modern assumptions.

[Guest deleted@83466]

Don’t overthink it.  The principle is sound even if we are talking about bumper cars.

[Lusekofte]

Several Spitfire pilots said on TV they rather had cannons and good dive capabilities in BOB. Most death on servers are coming from behind and not turning. Dogfight is a sign of something is gone wrong. They are very tiresome and dangerous. 
Why would you have the best turn fighter ? It means it rubbish in anything else

[Guest deleted@83466]

Yeah, but OP asked what was the best for a 1 circle fight, not whether bouncing some guy unaware is better than a dogfight.

[Knarley-Bob]

The P-47!!!

 

You are done/ dead before you know it............the fight is not lengthy.?

 

KB

Edited January 4, 2023 by Knarley-Bob

[312_Lazy]

Yak-9 is also a very strong turnfighter.

[FlyinCoffin]

all the way yak

[Youtch]

I agree that merge situation are not happening in IL2 MP, they happens only in QMB, and QMB is not very representative of real combat.

 

On the other hand, a dogfight situation developping into scissors is quite common in MP, even if it is a tactical mistake.

 

Even if boom and zoom was the art of war in 1940s and even if the theory of 1C and 2C was developped much after, turn rate and turn radius are still very important components to understand and take into account in a dogfight.

 

This got me thinking about which plane have the smallest turning radius in our current ww2 fighter set.

The specs are giving information about turn rate, but there is not much documented information about actual turn radius.

I have currently no clue which are the best ww2 planes in terms of turn radius, hence my initial question to the community.

 

When it comes to flat scissors, turn radius is one factor, but nose authority and ability to pull stick like a maniac without departing flight is also quite important.

I cannot count the number of P51 I fought and dropped like leaves due to the pilot panicking and pulling too hard in scissors.

 

I used to think roll rate was king in scissors but now I am starting to believe that a Bf109 (especially the G6 Late) would probably kick the ass of a Fw190 in scissors, and get the first shot opportunity. This is not a fight that is going to happen anytime soon on a MP server though... but just curious about the outcome of this mental exercise.

 

Then if you add a little bit of vertical component and go to rolling scissors, I have no doubt the Fw190 would stand no chance.

 

This brings an additional question of which are the best planes at rolling scissors, i believe here the Bf109 G6 Late is rocking.

 

 

On 12/31/2022 at 12:50 PM, [LeLv34]Lykurgos88 said:

I would take a FW-190 to any scissor fight, but mostly because of armament and roll rate. FW-190 need to be handled carefully at low speeds and especially FW-190 A8 will give you a bad time if the maneuver lasts too long. The energy bleed is real.

This makes Fw190 dangerous in reversal, but generally speaking entering scissors can be a death penatly for Fw190 because of the energy bleed is too strong.

 

If you do not nail that first reversal shot you are in real troubles, and nose authority after energy bleed is quite bad.

 

Doras also have no love for pilots pulling stick like maniac, and I would not dare entering scissors with Doras except if the situation is desesperate.

 

Even I get caught off guard with somebody on my six, after inital break I would look for other options than scissors.

Edited January 1, 2023 by Youtch

[oc2209]

7 hours ago, Youtch said:

This got me thinking about which plane have the smallest turning radius in our current ww2 fighter set.

The specs are giving information about turn rate, but there is not much documented information about actual turn radius.

I have currently no clue which are the best ww2 planes in terms of turn radius, hence my initial question to the community.

 

As others have said, I would expect it to be a draw between the Yak-9 and Spitfire IX. Hurricane might be in the running, but I doubt it's used in many MP scenarios.

 

Just doing a quick test now, I found the Yak-9 and Spit IX both had roughly 13 second turns, both carrying 200L of fuel (full length wings on the Spit). These turns were at about 250m altitude, entered at around 280 MPH, with 100% throttle. Both incurred greyout in the first turn. Subsequent turns degraded to roughly 15 seconds.

 

The Spitfire will have better energy retention (and/or acceleration) than the Yak after a hard turn. Something else a Spitfire can do better than a Yak (in my opinion), is ride the edge of a stall better in low speed turns. Provided you avoid the spin risk.

 

Until Japanese planes make it into the sim, the Spit is basically the king of turning here.

[oc2209]

Did a few more tests.

 

Hurricane with improved engine was 10 second turn. Almost blacked out despite entering turn at only 250 MPH. Same 200L of fuel as above. No extra guns or ammo.

 

Bf-109F-4 was 12 seconds, 109G-6 Late w/boost was 14 seconds. Both turns were unstable (near-stall behavior/shaky towards end of first turn).

[Guest deleted@83466]

It would be ridiculous to say Stuka or HS-129, but in this sim, I’ve seen some fancy stuff where you bleed off all all of your energy trying to make the angles, but you just can’t get in their turn no matter which way they’re going.

 

But for real, I’m going to say I-16.  Just a guess, didn’t fly it much in MP.

Edit: I mean if the BF-109E guy plays into it, which he probably won’t.

 

oc229, for OP question we need to know the radius.

Edited January 1, 2023 by SeaSerpent

[oc2209]

3 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

oc229, for OP question we need to know the radius.

 

Yes, but it's still useful to know the actual turn times instead of what's listed in official documentation, which are always performed under 'safe' conditions.

 

Probably nothing currently in the sim can turn inside a Hurricane (if the Hurri is doing a blackout turn).

[ZachariasX]

1 hour ago, oc2209 said:

Until Japanese planes make it into the sim, the Spit is basically the king of turning here.

The Hurricane easily outturn the Spit, both in the sim and real life for that matter.

 

9 hours ago, Youtch said:

On the other hand, a dogfight situation developping into scissors is quite common in MP, even if it is a tactical mistake.

In 1 vs 1 it is common and as lone wulf, it‘s your only option as the others are usually on comms and are aware of you.

 

For a good 1 circle fighter, you need a plane that can give you high AoA at slow speed while still being controllable. The Spit is exactly not that, yet it outrates about anything in the sim, with the exception of the Hurricane depending on circumstances.

 

I find the 109 E/F are the planes that make scissors most acessible. Lots of power, lots of AoA and great accelleration. That is how you kill Spits, lure them into 1 circle and you can kill them. If they let you drag them into this, then they are either bad pilots (and will die) or they think very little of you (and will die for that).

 

The I-16 has no chance, as it doesn‘t give you AoA as the 109 gives you and will fight a one circle at a disadvantage. the I-16 has a narrow speed band where it is a good rate fighter (two circle). If you are in the I-16 try to force a two circle at the optimum speed. Also it has good climb to maintain altitude over the enemy in a 1 vs 1 bar fight.

 

The Spit has a low lift, big wing that will not give you much angles compared to the slatted wing planes. But because the wing is large, you have lots of lift and you can stay above your quarry in a fight. If that fight drags down to the deck, go two circle and you kill anything.

 

And if you can fly like Krupi, take the P-39 and kill what comes your way…

[Guest deleted@83466]

I’ll bet the I-16 can easily get nose on a 109e in a slow scissors fight.

[oc2209]

33 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

The Hurricane easily outturn the Spit, both in the sim and real life for that matter.

 

That's why I said the Spit was 'basically' the king.

 

Yes, one plane here can turn inside it. But it's a plane that can be easily avoided/hit and run in MP by its most common historical enemies (109s). Whereas the Spit IX has enough speed that it can remain competitive into late-war scenarios.

[Guest deleted@83466]

If we’re just going to change the question, into what is most effective at whatever tactic one wishes, then I’ll the Tempest.

[oc2209]

2 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

If we’re just going to change the question, into what is most effective at whatever tactic one wishes, then I’ll the Tempest.

 

Spitfire IX turns better than Tempest, if turning is still the main consideration.

 

Nobody really changed the question. OP asked about turning, and while the Hurricane is the clear winner, it's also crap at everything else.

 

Thus the planes that turn well and can do other stuff (Spit IX, Yak-9) become more prominent in the discussion.

[Guest deleted@83466]

5 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

 

Spitfire IX turns better than Tempest, if turning is still the main consideration.

 

Nobody really changed the question. OP asked about turning, and while the Hurricane is the clear winner, it's also crap at everything else.

 

Thus the planes that turn well and can do other stuff (Spit IX, Yak-9) become more prominent in the discussion.

No, he didn’t ask about turning rate.
 

2 circle = battle of turn rates.  1 circle = radius fight.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 1, 2023 by SeaSerpent

[oc2209]

44 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

No, he didn’t ask about turning rate.
 

2 circle = battle of turn rates.  1 circle = radius fight.

 

 

There are ways of using the Spit's turning ability that don't rely solely on sustained turn rate.

[oc2209]

@SeaSerpent

 

I was referring to this:

 

Spoiler

 

 

It's not '2 circle turn rate' that's beating the 109 here. A Spitfire can cut into/across its turn as well.

[Guest deleted@83466]

Just admit you had no idea what Youtch was asking, and move on.

[Youtch]

Correct, my question is not about turn rate, or turning inside, it is about turn radius and which plane can get first get nose on the other in 1 circle fight.

 

For a reminder, this is the theory below:

 

 

 

10 hours ago, oc2209 said:

It's not '2 circle turn rate' that's beating the 109 here. A Spitfire can cut into/across its turn as well.

This is still a noose to tail fight, hence a 2 circles fight

[ZachariasX]

14 hours ago, oc2209 said:

I was referring to this:

An astonishing display of trading every advantage for a disadvantage. It is painful watching a Spit9 lose a turn fight to an AI 109 drone. Not getting a shot even once and ending below the 109 after one minute of circling. Argh… But it is a great visualisation of what not to do.

 

If you are in the Spit, all you need to do is park your plane in a turn at some 270 km/h and wait. You pull him into the hud once you are close enough to touch him. AI does not one circle you in this sim (at least currently), hence it is pointless trying to get it do just that.

 

Also, the scissor is a pure breaking contest. Like approaching a turn after a straight in car racing. The only thing you want to achieve is forcing an overshoot of your assailant. (You reverse when he’s about to pass in front of you or - if you have that much energy and he stays behind you because he has no more enrgy - you climb high above his nose to further bleed energy and reverse there.) The one that can pull most alpha in this situation has the advantage. Slats help for that. In consequence, the „min radius fight“ in wuestion is the opposite of a sustained min radius turn. This means it is irrelevant if your fighter can sustain the smallest radius, when all you want is getting rid of your energy to make the other overtake. In an aircraft, the best way to bleed your energy is pulling back your stick. Heavier aircraft tend to bleed speed faster than lighter aircraft. But then is the question, how slow can you go while still being in control? The 109 eats the I-16 for lunch in this situation. If you fight the I-16 in an Emil and you have used your „timer“, then rate fighting him surely is an interessting affair. Going one circle and scissor is a good receipe to kill him should he join the dance instead of gaining altitude on you in the turn and cash that in for angles when the time comes to dispose of you. In many ways, in this game, the 109 is the essence of a one circle fighter while being rather good at two circle fights. The Tempest is probably the worst offender at being great at everything.

 

Also, since in a scissor you (and your enemy) are throwing away energy with everything they have, you‘re falling like a piano. Having the right timing for a deck transition becomes critical, as down low, the better rate fighter has a free lunch unless the other gets very creative, like offsetting the circle and going for high adspect frontal shots. The rate fighter has control his circle and negate the others offsetting.

 

Taken together, the good one circle fighter (apart from having all other desireable qualities) can be controlled riding a slow stall speed. Accelleration should be good as well, as you want to get back in a more flyable condition if situation changes.

 

In summary, more on topic any my personal experience:

For one circle, take the 20mm Hurricane and go one circle and get free frags, alternatively early 109. The later the 109, the more difficult controlling them while stalling. The early 190 can be dangerous in a one circle, same as 150 oct Mustangs, especially the B. Some fly the Lagg3 spectacularly in that regard. I cannot make much use of that one. Then again, see the P-39 recommendation. The Yaks are good, but not that good and I take it as a relief when they go one circle when I am at them in a 109F.

In the Spit, any Spit, you go two circle and get free frags. (Unless they have friends or opt for discretion.)

[BlitzPig_EL]

I keep seeing reference to the P-39 in this discussion.  I must admit I am surprised.  While in the early days of original IL2 it was the mount I was best in (N and Q) in Great Battles it feels like I am trying to fly an underpowered large stone.  I fight the P40 much better.  Very odd, as when I am just using it in a solo flight it feels like it should be a good plane, but in combat I can do nothing with it, except burn up the engine faster than the P40 does.

 

I guess I should spend some time in it and try to understand it better.  I've seen Sharfi's vids in it and remain amazed.

[PatrickAWlson]

Fokker DRI

[Youtch]

On 1/2/2023 at 4:53 PM, ZachariasX said:

Also, the scissor is a pure breaking contest. Like approaching a turn after a straight in car racing. The only thing you want to achieve is forcing an overshoot of your assailant.

Many thanks for your long answer, it was very instructional

 

Your comment was very enlighting. I came to realize that 1 circle post merge is mostly about turn radius while scisor is radius and ability to break without stalling. Hence being good at flat scissors does not necessary imply being good at 1 circle and vice versa. Did i get this correctly?

 

This made me think also that rolling scissor is therefore much more complex, because it is not about breaking and avoiding stall, but also ensuring you keep enough energy to go vertical. Flat scissors can therefore easily evolve into rolling scissors if there is still some energy at play. This is i guess what you meant in your example of not being able to force an overshoot.

 

I am now wandering what makes a plane good at rolling scissors and which are the best planes at rolling scissors.

 

My guess would be that what matters is a smal radius, aptitude to retain energy when going vertical, and nose authority, hence making also the bf109 a very solid option. But I am just guessing.

Edited January 3, 2023 by Youtch

[Guest deleted@83466]

The good book by Shaw says that it is steepness of the climb that is advantaged.  Since we are flying a corkscrew he points out this is also called the Helix angle.

[ZachariasX]

22 hours ago, Youtch said:

I came to realize that 1 circle post merge is mostly about turn radius while scisor is radius and ability to break without stalling.

That‘s a way to put it, I‘d agree with that. But you stalling is not that bad if you can still control the aircraft and the othe stalling before you do.

 

EDIT:

The situation post merge is different as in the plain defensive situation. If you go one circle post head on merge (and you still live, which means the other is not that good of a shot), you go one circle when you are sure that you can pull the tighter circle, turning into him, while hitting the brakes in doing so.

 

If both had the same speed, you‘d end up slower than him when pulling him in the sights (should you succeed to do so).

 

In consequence, being very fast in a head on is impractical, both in prop or jet, as the induced drag is less significant to break you down than at more moderate speeds.

 

As an extreme case, the Spit bleeds little energy going slower (hence the great turn times). Hence it is damned to lose the braking contest by going one circle post merge against the 109.

 

But it is a difficult thing to do and piloting abilities matter a lot.

 

22 hours ago, Youtch said:

Hence being good at flat scissors does not necessary imply being good at 1 circle and vice versa.

No, when you‘re good at scissors, you are always a great one circle fighter.

 

The main point here to consider is that being great at rate fighting (two circle) is a statement about a sustained flight maneuver.

 

A one circle fight, one way or the other, throws away energy and you‘ll inevitably end up on the deck at minimum speed if you follow through all the way.

 

One circle is a mean to force a shot when you know the other can go around the circle as fast or faster than you and you know that you can raise the nose higher than him and fly slower than him. But in essence, the scissor is a braking maneuver with the desired result of the other overshooting you.

 

If you just consider the situation of you being ahead slow(er) and getting quickly in firing range of your assailant behind you:

 

If you remain steady and just drop a brake chute to slow down, you remain in the it his sights and he can kill you despite you getting slow. This means, you can only hit the brakes while moving out of his aim. Pulling back on the stick is the quickest way to force your assailant to adjust his aim. But if you only did just that, you are making an in plane movenent, and the other also has to make an easy correction in one dimension and he still can still easily kill you. The solution to this is making your assailants shot harder and move in two dimensions, out of plane, by rolling, to force a more complex aim correction. This should be enough to survive your assailant closing in.

 

You did all of that with pulling the throttle back instantly to help slowing down as fast as you can, something that would kill your „tough“ Double Wasp radial or really hurt your Merlin in real life.

 

While you are moving in two dimensions in your assailants gun sights (and out of that), you can now decide if you want to keep rolling or just keep on turning more or less level to a degree where your assailant cannot pull lead on you. As long as you don‘t see his underside, you are safe.

 

If all that started out of a level flight, you would opt for a flat scissor and stop rolling, as the continuation of pulling and rolling would lead you to split-s, something that well works if your assailant is much faster than you and you just want to disengage. If you want to turn the tables on him, you want to stay as close to him as possible, „hug him“ basically with your flight maneuver.

 

As you have now basically done nothing but a braking turn, it is time to assess the situation. Where is your assailant now? What is his energy state? Getting good guesses on the latter question will decide who dies in the fight. You guessing right, you might win, you guessing wrong, you certainly die.

 

As both of you keep on turning by pulling as many angles as possible, spending all energy for that, you get a first idea if you are moving away from his sights (before you looked directly down his gun barrels, now you see his dorsal side) gaining angles (and progressively win the one circle) or if the situation remains problematic when the other also throttles down to stay with you, pulling all angles he can.

 

If you see that the other cannot gain on you, you can reverse the turn by rolling in the other direction of your break turn, while still pulling to roll above the nose of your assailant. You can NEVER cross his nose. You can only do this if you are sure he cannot prophang on you due to an already very low energy state. But if your assailant couldn‘t gain angles on you, you have good hopes to pull up higher and steeper over his nose, this is where this comes into play:

 

18 hours ago, SeaSerpent said:

The good book by Shaw says that it is steepness of the climb that is advantaged.

 

These are all features in an aircraft that help you win this particular fight.

 

It is not really relevant if you keep rolling (rolling scissor) or reverse above his nose again until you can force his flight tracectory pass your nose and get a gun solution (flat scissor). It just depends on your judgement on which solution gives you better angles on your assailant to turn the table fastest.

 

If you are indeed climbing steeper and slower, continuing the roll will partition you behind the attaker and tables are turned. It is then up to him dealing with that and try to reverse the situation or die.

 

If you can turn tighter, pull higher angles, fly slower, you want to put him in just this fight. If he plays along, he is dead. Air combat is all about making the other fight to your aircrafts strenghts.

 

All aircraft can turn tight enough to black out the pilot if you are just willing to throw away enough altitude for that. If you black out, the other following you will do likewise. In consequence, when you see that you cannot gain angles on your attacker in the first braking turn, you are stuck. What then usually happens is the toilet bowl ride, where both follow each other at maximum pull, all the way down to the deck. (Prominently featured in the TopGun2 movie.) Down on the deck, sustained flight performance becomes a deciding factor (as there is no more altitude to cash in for a quick hand) and the better two circle fighter will just zoom around the circle after a suitable deck transition and kill the other (regardless of the circle radius, it is then all about who is around fastest), unless the better one circle fighter gets very creative as I detailed above previously.

 

The aircraft you can control best during prophanging are your choice for one circle fighters.

 

At altitude, all aircraft can turn very tight, it‘s just that the ones with better sustained turn times will tend end up above the lesser one during maneuvering. Exess altitude is credit for extra angles to pull him in the gunsight.

Edited January 4, 2023 by ZachariasX

[Youtch]

@ZachariasX: Many thanks for the long and very detailed answer. It is much appreciated, very instructive and give me a lot to compute and think of, firing up all my synapsis!

 

The first question that comes to my mind after reading your point on 1c and flat scissors is:

Is maximum instanteneous turning radius (or tightest radius) always the same thing as maximum breaking in flat scissors.

 

I understand that it is at maximum pull that you achieve maximum instantenous radius (or tightest radius), and that the more you pull the more you break, BUT some planes are better at breaking fast, or bleed energy faster, and others are better at pulling high angles.

 

I m under the impression that fw190 can break very fast bleeding a lot of energy but does not necessairely achieve great angle or very tight instanteneous radius while doing so (maybe it is also the higher risk of departing flight when pulling too hard), while bf109 would achieve a very good instanteneous radius while not bleeding its energy so much or so fast in comparison. Is it only an impression or it matches the specs of these 2 different beasts?

 

Maybe we need to clarify first what breaking means, does it mean bleeding energy and loosing true air speed fast, or is it to minimize forward travel in flat scissors?

 

My understanding of flat scissors and reversal is that it is not necessairely who is breaking or bleeding energy the most who wins the contest, but the one who manages to minimize the most its forward travel. Is it possible to minimize foward travel by achieving tighter instantenous radius instead of going for pure energy bleeding? Does a plane pulling very tight turn and deccelerating slowly have any chance against a plane decelerating fast but not turning so tight? The resulting vector of forward motion shall be pretty much equivalent on both cases.

 

At the same speed the tighter radius shall trigger the overshoot.

 

(I know i am not taking into account roll rate which can also greatly contribute to minimize forward travel if they are done faster)

 

I hope that what i am trying to say still makes sense and that i am not over complicating it.

 

Thanks for your patience with me.