Developer Diary #337 Discussion (The Past and The Future)

[AndyJWest]

3 hours ago, AnPetrovich said:

....real-time hydrodynamic calculations of gas/liquid flows and pressures...

 

Clearly intended to model that most essential feature of all British tanks, the boiling-water supply. 

[2/JG26_rudidlo]

7 hours ago, Han said:

Both choises requires to be realized for all 80+ aircrafts in the GB world.

Is it really needed for WWI planes or just for 50+ WWII ones?

[Guest deleted@83466]

 

7 minutes ago, AndyJWest said:

 

Clearly intended to model that most essential feature of all British tanks, the boiling-water supply. 

 

Is that water before, or after they put the tea and milk in it?

[Art-J]

7 hours ago, migmadmarine said:

Well, if a system like this were implemented, and one wanted to play MP, then they would either download everything or select servers running what they have. Depending on how granular things could be divided up, you could have the game automatically offer to download the content your missing, as a number of other games do. 

 

For the SP side of things it would be quite a useful system, as there isn't much use for a SP player to have maps they don't own downloaded, or if your a western front only player you could get by without the Soviet assets. A system to handle content like the Arma 3 mod launcher does would be quite handy. 

 

I don't think it would reduce MP popularity, in that case you simply download everything on install 

^ This guy get's it.

Plus, @1PL-Husar-1Esk, I see your point, but you have to see the other side as well. I'll give you an example of not potential "logistics nightmare to devs and us", but already existing one, albeit again on DCS side. Even though I'm SP player only, I've noticed with interest that there's a heated debate going on in one of the sections of ED forum, with Dedicated Server admins voicing their problem with this DS (which arguably is not really a properly done DS, but just a full game version without gfx enabled) requiring all maps to be installed whether they want to use them in their missions or not (similar situation to GB). Maps in DCS are the main bloaters / disk space eaters and for guys who don't install DS on some old PC in the basement, but use commercial providers, that's already a major issue, 'cause these providers ask premium prices based on rented storage size. Premium prices that have to be paid even if F-16 or F-18 squad guys want to fly only over Syria or Gulf maps (just an example), and they don't give a damn about WWII maps, NTTR, and South Atlantic. Even if they run their DS on their own private PCs, well, NVME drives of sufficient size don't grow on trees for free. Moreover, with a bunch of new map projects announced recently, which will bump up the total disk space requirements by another couple of hundred GB, the situation is getting even more problematic.

ED acknowledged that is an issue and now they're working on a solution which will allow DS users to choose which map they can add to DS install and which one to skip. Devs time is being spent extra on a problem which wouldn't be a problem if someone thought it through earlier in the first place.

Now, to finish this partially offtopic example, I agree it might not be a big problem for the GB itself, because again, it's still kind-of relatively small game and the system it uses is manageable for the time being. However, whether the new ambitious project evolves from the current engine, or is going to be built on a new one, I'd hazard a guess it's going to naturally increase in size compared to its predecessor, and the space management is going to become an issue sooner or later. I think Daniel's team should at least give it some consideration - learn from competitor's mistake rather than repeat it.

[CanadaOne]

9 hours ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

I don't quite agree. One of the selling points of IL2 is that you can fly against any aircraft you like, and in multiplayer fly on any map, even the ones you didn't purchase. The fact that *you* don't play multiplayer may be well and good (I don't play MP myself), but the Devs at the very least got to enable people to play multiplayer, don't they?

 

 

 

(Not aimed at you.)

 

I have no love for the free maps for multiplayer thing. The majority of flyers are SP and we have to pay for every map. But the MP flyers, the minority, get all the maps for free, courtesy of SP funding no less. Their reasoning for demanding it all be made free to them is because otherwise... wait for it... "it will split the community". 

 

? Oh boo-hoo.

 

I fly SP and I would like some free stuff too. 'Cause I gotta tell ya, I'm feeling split from the community. Like really split. Like banana split. So anytime IL2 wants to give me some free maps, here I am. And I'm sure all the other SP flyers would like free stuff as well. 

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

7 minutes ago, CanadaOne said:

 

(Not aimed at you.)

 

I have no love for the free maps for multiplayer thing. The majority of flyers are SP and we have to pay for every map. But the MP flyers, the minority, get all the maps for free, courtesy of SP funding no less. Their reasoning for demanding it all be made free to them is because otherwise... wait for it... "it will split the community". 

 

? Oh boo-hoo.

 

I fly SP and I would like some free stuff too. 'Cause I gotta tell ya, I'm feeling split from the community. Like really split. Like banana split. So anytime IL2 wants to give me some free maps, here I am. And I'm sure all the other SP flyers would like free stuff as well. 

It's not really getting a map for free, it's more not being barred from participating on a map you don't own. DCS online is a disaster minus one server on an AWFUL map (4YA). Because no online players can fly on maps/asset packs they don't own, DCS has, for all intents and purposes, killed their own magnificent Channel Map for online use and now they're building a third WW2 Channel Map because that place is run by a bunch of short-sighted and greedy folks with no vision. 

 

Edited December 30, 2022 by drewm3i-VR

[dbuile]

8 hours ago, Han said:

"guys, there are math troubles in this development which requires unknown ammount of time to solve".

 

Huh, imagine that!  Sounds like you're running a DEV team !    I may not be a long-time IL-2 player, but as a long-ago flight simmer, I really appreciate,@AnPetrovich , the drive to bring realistic simulation to this hobby.   To the whole IL-2 Team, after leaving sims 20 years ago, I never thought I'd look at realistic Bf-109 and He-111 cockpits like this...  Yet, there are still more Dreams to realize!

[CanadaOne]

7 minutes ago, drewm3i-VR said:

It's not really getting a map for free, it's more not being barred from participating on a map you don't own.

 

You mean the way I'm barred from flying planes I didn't pay for and don't own?

 

I'm fine with free stuff for the MP crowd as long as the SP crowd gets free stuff too. I'll take a free C-47 please.

 

Thank you for the free plane. 

 

 

7 minutes ago, drewm3i-VR said:

 

 

 

DCS online is a disaster minus one server on an AWFUL map (4YA). Because no online players can fly on maps/asset packs they don't own, DCS has, for all intents and purposes, killed their own magnificent Channel Map for online use and now they're building a third WW2 Channel Map because that place is run by a bunch of short-sighted and greedy folks with no vision. 

 

 

 

Being a grownup means paying for your toys. If you didn't pay for it and therefore don't own it then you can't play with it. Welcome to being all growed up.

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

20 minutes ago, CanadaOne said:

 

(Not aimed at you.)

 

I have no love for the free maps for multiplayer thing. The majority of flyers are SP and we have to pay for every map. But the MP flyers, the minority, get all the maps for free, courtesy of SP funding no less. Their reasoning for demanding it all be made free to them is because otherwise... wait for it... "it will split the community". 

 

? Oh boo-hoo.

 

I fly SP and I would like some free stuff too. 'Cause I gotta tell ya, I'm feeling split from the community. Like really split. Like banana split. So anytime IL2 wants to give me some free maps, here I am. And I'm sure all the other SP flyers would like free stuff as well. 

Also, I don't understand the single player thing as someone who only played single player for so many years...there are servers running dynamic campaigns with AI bombers and other units, sophisticated command/AI ATC bots, etc. Compared to online, SP is just so sterile.

1 minute ago, CanadaOne said:

 

You mean the way I'm barred from flying planes I didn't pay for and don't own?

 

I'm fine with free stuff for the MP crowd as long as the SP crowd gets free stuff too. I'll take a free C-47 please.

 

Thank you for the free plane. 

 

 

 

 

Being a grownup means paying for your toys. If you didn't pay for it and therefore don't own it then you can't play with it. Welcome to being all growed up.

This would be a disaster with all of the different modules and collector planes and I'm glad the devs will never do this. Also, you can fly against planes you don't own all day ?

Edited December 30, 2022 by drewm3i-VR

[CanadaOne]

2 minutes ago, drewm3i-VR said:

Also, I don't understand the single player thing as someone who only played single player for so many years...there are servers running dynamic campaigns with AI bombers and other units, sophisticated command/AI ATC bots, etc. Compared to online, SP is just so sterile.

 

You might be right. But some enjoy the informality of SP flying. 

 

 

2 minutes ago, drewm3i-VR said:

This would be a disaster with all of the different modules and collector planes and I'm glad the devs will never do this. Also, you can fly against planes you don't own all day ?

 

I still think if you want a toy, then pay for the toy.

 

But is chit gonna be free, than I want some free stuff too. Look to the left, I've spent my fair share of IL2 dollars. Where's my free stuff?

[migmadmarine]

The handling of maps and the ability to crew an aircraft you don't own is one of the best features of the franchise I think, for the reasons given by Drewm3i. And you've gotten your free map Canada, it's called Velikie luki, and you've gotten it free twice now. 

 

As to singleplayer Drewm3i, I think a lot of us choose it because of the ease of entry. Speaking for myself I only really play the sim in career mode or PWCG Co-op, since I don't find PVP particularly interesting in and of itself, and I like the objective structure of having organized flights going to conduct particular missions, (even if the AI can screw it up). SP has the big advantage too of just being able to drop in and play on a whim whenever I feel the urge, where as any sort of co-operative play with a dedicated flight requires planning ahead, organizing people's availability, time zones and so on. Really the only sort of MP that seems at all appealing to me for a sim like this is the FTC Battle of Kuban Campaign that Wolfpack345 has posted a few videos from because it fits the organized flying aspect I'm interested in, but I imagine putting something like that must be quite the workload. 

[Avimimus]

4 hours ago, AnPetrovich said:

I would like to add a bit to Daniel' words.

Just to make it clear to those who think this is some simple system or just drop tanks.

 

In fact it was an attempt to develop a technology for simulation a pipeline network of any possible configuration (in LEGO style, with new systems assembly via config-files only, without further coding), for a two-phase aggregate state of matter (gas + liquid, not necessarily fuel... turn on your imagination), including damage/repair models of every pipe and device, with any possible number of controls (including auto mode for beginners). And it had to be based on real-time hydrodynamic calculations of gas/liquid flows and pressures at any points in the system, with time-based (not instantaneous) transfer of contents through the system.

 

Those of you who have been following me since AFM know that I am all about simulation technologies. This is my passion, and I was very excited to make this attempt. This technology promised so many benefits! In realism, immersion, and most importantly, in speeding up the development of any liquid/gas systems for the all plane set.

 

The intermediate result met all requirements I mentioned above, but was computationally unstable when increasing the number of elements of the system. The struggle for computational stability took the bulk of the time and unfortunately this physics wasn't always working stable.

 

This is what sometimes happens with R&D tasks. You never know in advance what you will achieve until you go all the way through.

 

Finally I came up with a new approach but it took some time to make a transition to a different solution. I've done more than I could to redirect the system physics to the new solution before I left the company. It was almost done but yeah, still not 100%. It comforts me that the engineering team knows how to do the rest.

 

It was a very ambitious and hard run with unknown in advance results, and eventually took me over a year of ups and downs. Not an easy (I would say crazy), but very meaningful experience for me, an important and valuable experience for the team in the further R&D planning, and many useful outcomes for future use. I'll be very glad to see the "fuel system" on your PC one day, whichever project (current or the next one) will include this.

 

 

Wow. The fluid dynamics nerd in me views this as pretty heroic... I'm definitely glad to be an 'enabler' of such attempts.

 

P.S. Does anyone else see what I see? Modelling all of the tanks, their connections, and modelling the fuel in both its gas and fluid states? This wasn't just about drop-tanks or even just about fuel... if it had succeeded... the implications...

[=FEW=fernando11]

4 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

 

Wow. The fluid dynamics nerd in me views this as pretty heroic... I'm definitely glad to be an 'enabler' of such attempts.

 

P.S. Does anyone else see what I see? Modelling all of the tanks, their connections, and modelling the fuel in both its gas and fluid states? This wasn't just about drop-tanks or even just about fuel... if it had succeeded... the implications...

Go on.

[AEthelraedUnraed]

26 minutes ago, CanadaOne said:

I still think if you want a toy, then pay for the toy.

But you *can* play the toy. If you don't want to play multiplayer, then that's your choice. Nobody's barring you from doing so. It's one single game, so you get exactly the same things as multiplayers do.

 

Also, singleplayers have the full use of the map. They can play any scenario they like, when they like. Multiplayers can only play a map if and when the server decides so, and have little control over the scenario.

 

And this is coming from an SP-only player.

 

51 minutes ago, CanadaOne said:

Being a grownup means paying for your toys. If you didn't pay for it and therefore don't own it then you can't play with it. Welcome to being all growed up.

In my book, being a grownup means thinking about what you buy. You know you only like singleplayer. You know IL2 has all of its maps enabled for multiplayer. If these combined facts are too much of an issue for you, then perhaps you shouldn't have bought the game in the first place. This sounds a bit like buying a car with a fuel leak, and then wanting a refund because it keeps running out of petrol.

[BraveSirRobin]

59 minutes ago, CanadaOne said:

 

But is chit gonna be free, than I want some free stuff too. Look to the left, I've spent my fair share of IL2 dollars. Where's my free stuff?

You get the same free stuff as the MP players.  Just find a server that has the map you want to fly on and go wild.  Problem solved.

[Koziolek]

1 hour ago, CanadaOne said:

Where's my free stuff?

Well, nowhere.

 

Because:

1 hour ago, CanadaOne said:

 

Being a grownup means paying for your toys. 

?

[Rjel]

Talk about a split in the community. This place has really fragmented since the announcement of Jason's exit. Lots of conjecture about the future from everyday users. Snarky replies by former and current members of the development team on what was and is holding the sim back. And that's just from this DD announcement. Never mind the several other threads that have been going strong for weeks wondering what was or wasn't coming in future development without any real authoritative answers. This website has really lost the sense of camaraderie it once held. IMO. 

[CanadaOne]

53 minutes ago, migmadmarine said:

The handling of maps and the ability to crew an aircraft you don't own is one of the best features of the franchise I think, for the reasons given by Drewm3i. And you've gotten your free map Canada, it's called Velikie luki, and you've gotten it free twice now. 

 

We all got that for free, I think. But the MP crowd gets the Normandy map for free, for example, and I had to shell out quality dollars to fly on that map.

 

Why not just hand out the map for free to everyone SP & MP? Why did I have to pay for it and the other guy didn't? Or does the MP crowd think the SP flyers should have to pay while they get it for free? 'Cause someone had to pay for that map to be made, and the someone who paid was me. The MP guys who maybe who shelled out $10 to get a module on sale gets to use the Normandy map free of charge because the SP crowd financed it. 

 

Now, about the free C-47s for the SP flyers...

[BraveSirRobin]

3 minutes ago, CanadaOne said:

But the MP crowd gets the Normandy map for free, for example,

So do you.  Find an MP server running a map you don’t own and go fly.  Problem solved.

[CanadaOne]

Just now, BraveSirRobin said:

So do you.  Find an MP server running a map you don’t own and go fly.  Problem solved.

 

I don't MP, I SP. 

 

The majority SP.

 

Why are the SP financing free maps for the MP minority?

[Guest deleted@83466]

What people do with their grownup toys is their own business!

[CanadaOne]

Just now, SeaSerpent said:

What people do with their grownup toys is their own business!

 

Indeed.

 

I just don't want to have to pay for the thing in your nightstand. 

[Koziolek]

7 minutes ago, CanadaOne said:

Why did I have to pay for it and the other guy didn't?

Are you sure you are from Canada? You sound like you are from Poland

I should know, I'm Polish ?

[CanadaOne]

1 minute ago, Koziolek said:

Are you sure you are from Canada? You sound like you are from Poland

I should know, I'm Polish ?

 

I have Polish friends, does that count?

[Koziolek]

1 minute ago, CanadaOne said:

 

I have Polish friends, does that count?

Yeah, you probably spend too much time with them ?

[[F.Circus]Gorn_Captain]

12 minutes ago, CanadaOne said:

 

I don't MP, I SP. 

 

The majority SP.

 

Why are the SP financing free maps for the MP minority?

 

The fact that you don't use the free thing given to you doesn't mean you don't have it. The game is not split between multiplayer and singleplayer editions. Everyone (including you!) get all the gameplay updates and AI aircraft for free, regardless of whether you buy modules or DLC. The module isn't just the map, it's the career mode, campaigns and missions. Which if you want to even reasonably approximate in multiplayer, requires people to put in a large amount of time to create missions or use third party software that isn't included in the game. 

 

 

You aren't losing anything by the game attempting to foster and maintain a multiplayer community. If anything you gain, easy access to multiplayer directly translates to better player retention, which makes people more likely to buy planes so they can fly them. Which means the devs can continue to eat and develop more planes, AI objects, and the career mode. Which you use! You lose literally nothing. 

 

Edited December 31, 2022 by [F.Circus]Gorn_Captain

[BraveSirRobin]

8 minutes ago, CanadaOne said:

 

I don't MP, I SP. 

 

 

That’s your choice.  It doesn’t change the fact that you have the same access to those maps as the MP players.  Just like I have access to the SP career that I will never use.

7 minutes ago, CanadaOne said:

 

Indeed.

 

I just don't want to have to pay for the thing in your nightstand. 

 

Then stop buying GB products.  Problem solved.

Edited December 31, 2022 by BraveSirRobin

[CanadaOne]

1 minute ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

That’s your choice.  It doesn’t change the fact that you have the same access to those maps as the MP players.  Just like I have access to the SP career that Inwill never use.

 

Uh-huh...

 

Then let's have the majority SP flyers skip buying the next module entirely and join the minority MP flyers with that map for free online. Annnnnd that will be the end of all maps and possibly the sim itself because no money equals no sim. The majority SP flyers are financing the free maps for the minority MP flyers.

 

Now, about my free C-47? 

[Denum]

16 minutes ago, CanadaOne said:

I don't MP, I SP. 

 

The majority SP.

 

Why are the SP financing free maps for the MP minority?

EVERYONE, you included. Has access to the map regardless if you've paid for the module or not. 

If you choose to not use said avenue. Welp. Tough cookies I suppose. 

Also the guys trying to fly late war maps without the modules are in for a pretty rough time. 

 

No. They won't give you a free C-47 


I suppose I can claim I'm "subsidizing" the SP community because I never use it outside of QMB for warm up sessions. 


 

Edited December 31, 2022 by Denum

[BraveSirRobin]

1 minute ago, CanadaOne said:

 

Uh-huh...

 

Then let's have the majority SP flyers skip buying the next module entirely and join the minority MP flyers with that map for free online. Annnnnd that will be the end of all maps and possibly the sim itself because no money equals no sim. The majority SP flyers are financing the free maps for the minority MP flyers.

 

Now, about my free C-47? 

ok.  Go for it.  You’re still not getting a free C-47.

[CanadaOne]

Just now, Denum said:

EVERYONE, you included. Has access to the map regardless if you've paid for the module or not. 

If you choose to not use said avenue. Welp. Tough cookies I suppose. 

Also the guys trying to fly late war maps with out the modules are in for a pretty rough time. 

 

No. They won't give you a free C-47 

 

So we should start a movement with the SP flyers to not buy the next module and only fly that map online for free like the MP guys do?

 

Be real fun to see what zero money equals for development. I'm guessing it would equal, you know, zero development.

[BraveSirRobin]

1 minute ago, CanadaOne said:

 

So we should start a movement with the SP flyers to not buy the next module and only fly that map online for free like the MP guys do?

 

Be real fun to see what zero money equals for development. I'm guessing it would equal, you know, zero development.

You should absolutely try to do that.

[AEthelraedUnraed]

18 minutes ago, CanadaOne said:

I don't MP, I SP. 

 

The majority SP.

 

Why are the SP financing free maps for the MP minority?

I don't fly the Fw-190A8, I don't like it. Why am I financing the Fw-190A8 for the people who do like it? I want my free Sopwith Snipe as an alternative.

[[F.Circus]Gorn_Captain]

I only fly Allied aircraft. I bought Normandy and only have 5 flyable types? And yet, filthy ungrateful players that fly Axis & Allied get 10 aircraft, for the same price I paid for my 5! 

 

This is absolutely outrageous I demand a free Vickers Wellington.

Edited December 31, 2022 by [F.Circus]Gorn_Captain

[Denum]

5 minutes ago, CanadaOne said:

 

So we should start a movement with the SP flyers to not buy the next module and only fly that map online for free like the MP guys do?

 

Be real fun to see what zero money equals for development. I'm guessing it would equal, you know, zero development.

Yeah except the the majority of the multiplayer community has all of the premium aircraft and modules. 

On top of that, most of us DONATE to our favorite servers because they cost money to run. 

Are you shelling out an additional 50$+ a year on top of game purchases to play?

The online community is the best part of this game and I think you should seriously re-evaluate your stance on it before you sit there and accuse them of being freeloaders. 

There are 1000s of hours put into these servers that no one is paid for. 

If there was no online portion to this game. I would not play it.

Edited December 31, 2022 by Denum

[CanadaOne]

Just now, Denum said:

Yeah except the the majority of the multiplayer community has all of the premium aircraft and modules. 

On top of that, most of us DONATE to our favorite servers because they cost money to run. 

Are you shelling out an additional 50$+ a year to play?

 

 

Everything to the left is what I paid for and it's what I use. What you give to your server is your business, no one else's. 

 

And if all the MP guys paid for everything, then why the fuss if they have to pay for the maps they use... the ones you say they already paid for? I'm guessing it's because a bunch of them didn't pay and want it for free. And here's the crunch: if we all did that with the next module/map, IL2 would close shop.

 

The guys who didn't pay for the map but still expect to use it... should pay for the map. How deliciously simple.

[BraveSirRobin]

4 minutes ago, CanadaOne said:

And here's the crunch: if we all did that with the next module/map, IL2 would close shop.

Then start organizing.  We’ve all had access to all the maps in MP since the start.  You’re the only one complaining.  If there is going to be a boycott, it’s up to you.

[Denum]

I guess the highlight reel here is,

 

No, you won't get a free C47. 

No, they won't enforce buying entire modules for online play. 

 

No, people will not be coerced into refusing to buy the next module because less then 1% of the player base is using something in multiplayer that you refuse to. 

 

 

[Guest deleted@83466]

He’ll need a catchy slogan to chant.
 

“Four Five Six Seven, we don’t want your LA Seven !”

[itsbillyfrazier]

This was an interesting thread until it derailed into the SP Vs MP funding debate....jeez.

 

I'm mostly SP and own almost all content bar the new FC Snipe...couldn't give a rats that MP players play on maps they don't own for free.

 

In fact, it's a good idea IMO as they will probably buy collector planes anyway and it helps grow the community which can only be good for the series.