Battle over Europe

[R33GZ]

So it's settled then PTO is the next module... with carriers, large bomber formations and no time dilation.

 

Fantastic... it only took 4 pages to iron that out. Great chat guys ?

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

20 hours ago, Eisenfaustus said:

Two of which don‘t feature a career and are also no part of pwcg. 
Also none of which saw historically La7 or Bf109g10 in action. 
 

For me it is. Dogfighting a La5fn in an Fw190d9 over Kuban feels for me exactly like dogfighting a wildcat in a zero over the Black Sea: Visually all is fine but it lacks historical context. 
 

I understand that. I love pwcg - yet my willingness to get ahistorical in a WWII sim is limited. Doing BoB stuff on 1944 Normandy map is no problem for me. But doing it in 1941/42 planes is as far as I‘m willing to stretch. Pat‘s offering 1944/45 eastern front over Stalingrad or Moscow area is great for all those who enjoy that. For me it doesn’t feel like the war is coming to an end if my mission briefing sends me patrolling over the Volga. 
And career has it’s own advantages to - ease of use and historical accuracy first among them. And other than Normandy‘s landing grounds my machine actually runs the careers on sparse density with tolerable TD. In fact I have basically the same TD problems in pwcg that I have in career. 
Scripted campaigns are cool but I prefer the career/pwcg concept of playing your alter ego through larger operations. 
Online is due to several reasons no option for me. 
 

TLDR

 

I understand your PoV but due to different preferences I don’t share it

This is fair. I would support a late Eastern Front collector map and some accompanying collector planes, I just think another full module would be really uninteresting, monotonous, and commercially asinine.

[Skycat1969]

5 hours ago, R33GZ said:

So it's settled then PTO is the next module... with carriers, large bomber formations and no time dilation.

 

Fantastic... it only took 4 pages to iron that out. Great chat guys ?

No supporting infantry??? Boycott!

[Strewth]

On 12/4/2022 at 10:23 AM, CUJO_1970 said:

 

This is not an accurate translation. There is a no definite article 'e' in Klingon...it should read simply 'chongaghpu' DaHar' and 'be'terIS*, tu'lu'bogh?'

 

The 'e' completely changes the meaning and was likely added by people with an agenda against 109s.

Would that be a 109 "e" then?

 

[oc2209]

16 hours ago, drewm3i-VR said:

 I would support a late Eastern Front collector map and some accompanying collector planes,

 

How magnanimous of you.

 

So, how large would this collector map be? I mean, obviously it couldn't be as large as a real DLC map, nor could it be at all complex; otherwise, what's the point of not releasing a full DLC map? So we're talking about a small parcel of Poland, most likely.

 

Which then begs the question: could they even make a career for a such a map? A collector map sounds like something you fly quick missions over.

 

Also, how many planes? There's no reason to avoid making a 109G-10 and Fw-190A-9. There's enough demand to justify both. On the Russian side, there's the Yak-3, -9U, and La-7.

 

So, that's already 5 planes. Without getting into bombers or exotics.

 

At that point... why not just make it a full DLC?

[Gambit21]

26 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

 

How magnanimous of you.

 

I see you're back from you "cooling off" period, and it appears, back in form.

 

26 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

 

So, how large would this collector map be?

 

As large as they decide to make it after consulting with Daniel and Albert

 

26 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

 

I mean, obviously it couldn't be as large as a real DLC map,

 

Incorrect

 

26 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

 

nor could it be at all complex;

 

Again, incorrect.

 

 

26 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

 

otherwise, what's the point of not releasing a full DLC map?

 

The point is that the product can and will grow beyond the "Map and 10 planes" model, which was always needed, and now this will begin to happen.

 

 

26 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

 

 

So we're talking about a small parcel of Poland, most likely.

 

How large or small is will depend on multiple factors, mostly what the game engine will accommodate and what the 3rd party and 1C devs decide. Anything else is based on your incorrect assumptions above.

 

 

26 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

 

Which then begs the question: could they even make a career for a such a map?

 

Could they, yes. Would they? I'm positive they would. 

 

 

26 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

 

 

A collector map sounds like something you fly quick missions over.

 

That's because every assertion you make is based on some sort of arbitrary assumption based on nothing whatsoever.

 

 

26 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

 

Also, how many planes? There's no reason to avoid making a 109G-10 and Fw-190A-9. There's enough demand to justify both. On the Russian side, there's the Yak-3, -9U, and La-7.

 

So, that's already 5 planes. Without getting into bombers or exotics.

 

At that point... why not just make it a full DLC?

 

Because despite what you think, at this juncture it's not commercially viable, and they need revenue.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by Gambit21

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

Thank you @Gambit21

[oc2209]

6 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

That's because every assertion you make is based on some sort of arbitrary assumption based on nothing whatsoever.

 

Because despite what you think, at this juncture it's not commercially viable, and they need revenue.

 

 

Name anything you said in that entire response, that wasn't an 'arbitrary assumption based on nothing.'

 

Especially that part I bolded.

 

So, let me get this straight. They're going to release a full size, full career length, DLC map, as a standalone collector item, right?

 

Then release at minimum 5 planes for it, the ones I listed. Even though at least 1 exotic German plane and 1 Sturmovik would be almost a given, which would then bring the total plane count up to 7, but let's just say 5 for the sake of argument.

 

So, since you're such an expert on commercial viability, explain to me how a map (say, 20 bucks) and 5 planes, all collector, costing $120 in total, would be a hot seller when people right now can get Normandy and 10 planes, for $90?

 

If the Eastern Front is already doomed for the usual price model, you're telling me it's less doomed for more money and less product?

[Gambit21]

 I’m not going to descend into the type of obsessive, inane, circular debate that you seem to enjoy creating here.

 Have a good evening.

 

 

 

 

[CUJO_1970]

I don't see any issue with a late-war eastern front module from a sales standpoint. It would sell just fine, wouldn't surprise me at all to see it do just as well as Normandy and/or Bodenplatte. As an aside - Winter War/Finnish Gulf would be amazing.

 

At any rate, we need HS 123 and I-153 as collectors like, right now.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Totally agree with you CUJO on the biplanes.

 

In fact a pack with late biplanes would be an insta purchase from me.

 

HS 123

I-153

Gloster Gladiator

Fiat Cr.42

[Gambit21]

18 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Totally agree with you CUJO on the biplanes.

 

In fact a pack with late biplanes would be an insta purchase from me.

 

HS 123

I-153

Gloster Gladiator

Fiat Cr.42

I want to see a Storch, and a few German float planes. 

[BlitzPig_EL]

Jake 

Dave

A6M2-N 

Kingfisher

PBY 

H6K 

H8K 

Walrus 

 

?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gambit21]

 

Rex

 

 

[BlitzPig_EL]

That too.

[sevenless]

1 hour ago, Gambit21 said:

I want to see a Storch, and a few German float planes. 

 

Seems to be whishlist season...so I´d go with this one for Bodenplatte and the upcoming (date to be determined) "Adolf is kaputt" DLC

 

FalkeEins - the Luftwaffe blog: Bückers with bazookas - Bü 181 'Bestmann' mit Panzerfäusten (1)

 

Edited December 6, 2022 by sevenless

[oc2209]

14 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

 I’m not going to descend into the type of obsessive, inane, circular debate that you seem to enjoy creating here.

 

I don't enjoy this. At all. What I don't like, is for simple truths to be obfuscated by shoddy logic.

 

There's nothing inane about my point. You say EF can't sell using the conventional DLC platform. Your solution: release EF as collector items, including a map, which would dramatically increase the overall price.

 

That's a logical fallacy. Plain and simple.

 

Funny how you were so eager to do a point-by-point attack on my previous post, when you thought you had the upper hand. In reality, you were saying nothing beyond 'my opinion is better than your opinion.' You don't know what the devs will do. Quit pretending as if you do.

 

As for these debates being 'circular and obsessive,' well, that's because the people I'm debating won't back down from an unsustainable argument. Instead of backing down, you doubled down, and you lost.

[Cpt_Cool]

22 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

That's because every assertion you make is based on some sort of arbitrary assumption based on nothing whatsoever.

 

 

[AEthelraedUnraed]

34 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

 

I don't enjoy this. At all. What I don't like, is for simple truths to be obfuscated by shoddy logic.

 

There's nothing inane about my point. You say EF can't sell using the conventional DLC platform. Your solution: release EF as collector items, including a map, which would dramatically increase the overall price.

 

That's a logical fallacy. Plain and simple.

 

Funny how you were so eager to do a point-by-point attack on my previous post, when you thought you had the upper hand. In reality, you were saying nothing beyond 'my opinion is better than your opinion.' You don't know what the devs will do. Quit pretending as if you do.

 

As for these debates being 'circular and obsessive,' well, that's because the people I'm debating won't back down from an unsustainable argument. Instead of backing down, you doubled down, and you lost.

Honestly, please, try to look at it from someone else's perspective for once. Your arguments aren't as perfect and sustainable as you seem to think they are. Many of the things you accuse others of are equally applicable to your own arguments, including in particular the logical fallacies. Moreover, there are no "winners" or "losers" here, and even if there were, it's certainly not you who decides who is who. Let's not go back to the point where you called everyone who disagreed with you an "annoying purist *****", shall we?

 

I fully expect this to fall on deaf ears, but I implore you to actually do this. Try to understand why some people disagree with you, and don't be derogatory or supremacist about it in the meantime. Many people have different things they like or dislike, and as a result different opinions about where they'd like this game to go. It doesn't automatically make your opinion the only "true" one while any dissenting opinion only serves to "obfuscate" your truth by "shoddy logic". Try to approach things from the other side, and perhaps you'll learn a thing or two about your own viewpoint in the meantime. If there's anything that kills any debate, it's refusing to look for some common ground.

 

But yeah, this comment is most likely only gonna earn me more hate ?

[Gambit21]

1 hour ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

That too.

 

I just learned about it yesterday lol? How did I not know about that one?

BTW the information that Greg got regarding the KI-84 came from our old friend Hiromachi.

I was talking with him about it on Discord yesterday.

 

 

 

He's the one that clued me into the Rex.

[Art-J]

Well, as mentioned previously, the devs already made decision a while ago about their next "big project"... whatever it is, and started working on it without asking anyone here about our opinion. Same with next collector planes.

 

Which means the whole second half of this thread is pointless drivel anyway, no matter how much one thinks his opinion is superior to other opinion :D.

 

They're going to make and release something they decided on whether we want it or not. Maybe it's going to be late East Front related, maybe something different. Hopefully we'll get some announcement before Christmas. Half of us will be interested in it (or stick to "support the devs" policy) and will buy it, the other half will not and it's equally OK. That's that,  move along, nothing to see here.

[CUJO_1970]

3 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Totally agree with you CUJO on the biplanes.

 

In fact a pack with late biplanes would be an insta purchase from me.

 

HS 123

I-153

Gloster Gladiator

Fiat Cr.42

 

This would represent an instant purchase for me. Like I would pull a hamstring or something trying to purchase this so fast.

 

Gladiator is cool...but what about a Fairey Swordfish???

[BlitzPig_EL]

True, the Swordfish belongs in that group, as does the Curtiss SOC.

[Lusekofte]

10 minutes ago, CUJO_1970 said:

Fairey Swordfish

It is for me a instant buy. I put it with my other non survivability collection and fly it anyway.

[Trooper117]

Just now, Lusekofte said:

It is for me a instant buy. I put it with my other non survivability collection and fly it anyway.

 

You are entirely consistent old chap!

[Gambit21]

I think many of us can agree - float planes, any and all air forces.

I'm partial the Japanese and the Catalina, but I'll take a float Ju-52 as well. 

[Cloyd]

More crap planes please. ?

[Dragon1-1]

I'd love to see more early war in general, such as Poland, or France. PZL P.24, for example, which informed the design of IAR-80 to some extent, or the P.11. Both have surviving examples.

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

Did I miss an annoucement or something?

[Trooper117]

Nothing new announced since the stream weeks ago... oh, and the new patch!

[CountZero]

i dont expect anouncment on next DLC till february at least at this point, collector airplanes are to be anounced 3-4 weeks after that stream month ago so maybe they anounce them sone. 

[Lusekofte]

A announcement in historical perspective is long overdue. 
They would like to pre sell next module asap. So I think this delay now got more to do with general company/ distribution/ financial issues. I think they not yet know anything about everything. 
Everything stopped financially all over the board. The willingness to spend money is rock bottom. 

[Irishratticus72]

21 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

I think many of us can agree - float planes, any and all air forces.

I'm partial the Japanese and the Catalina, but I'll take a float Ju-52 as well. 

 

[dbuile]

On 12/6/2022 at 4:36 PM, Gambit21 said:

I think many of us can agree - float planes, any and all air forces.

I'm partial the Japanese and the Catalina, but I'll take a float Ju-52 as well. 

I'd love the Ar-196, and I love the look of the Ju 52 floatplane; but speaking of commercial viability,  I know I must temper expectations for such things.  How much of a seller would they really be?  I had nearly a 20 year hiatus from sims, and the struggles seem the same.  I would love very niche items, but alas those items won't sell.   Making a float plane a rewarding aircraft would take a lot of special handling for mission creation, probably additional behind-the-scenes campaign bookkeeping, and ideally an appropriate theatre map.

 

I assume the largest customer base (ie, revenue) are looking for fast, exciting engagements in high-performance fighter-vs-fighter combat.  

 

@Irishratticus72 Hehe... TWA = "Try Walking Across..."

[FliegerAD]

On 12/6/2022 at 6:31 PM, CUJO_1970 said:

I don't see any issue with a late-war eastern front module from a sales standpoint. It would sell just fine, wouldn't surprise me at all to see it do just as well as Normandy and/or Bodenplatte.

 

Given that the previous Eastern Front modules have sold pretty much the same as Normandy and Bodenplatte - certainly nowhere near the doom of sales, which I sometimes thought reading threads this forum -  that is not much of a stretch to assume, especially after a pause of eight years (considering development time). I mean, eight years. That is the time between 1946 and BoS.

 

If they choose the Eastern Front, then I trust it is financially viable.

 

As far as terrain is concerned, Lake Balaton e.g. is one of the top European tourist attractions for a reason; it is beautiful there. And the Carpathian Mountains are stunning at places. People really need to travel more if they think eastern Europe is boring or already represented in our maps.

...except the Oder-valley. Yeah, that is boring irl. ?

 

Same with aircraft: fighters might be a bit redundant, but bombers and attack aircraft are a wholly different story. Ju 388, Mistel, Tu 2, Yer 2, Il 10 (if one may dream), and more many.

Btw., that 'bomber-stuff' includes the use of Hs 293 radio-guided glide bombs - which would be quite a signficant novelty.

 

I mean, the Eastern Front would not be my most beloved scenario, but I won't pretend it is without merits historically and in terms of gameplay just to push that beloved scenario of mine.

[Trooper117]

13 hours ago, FliegerAD said:

Given that the previous Eastern Front modules have sold pretty much the same as Normandy and Bodenplatte

 

Is there a sales record for this?... how did you find out?

[FliegerAD]

From an interview two months ago. The devs said BoS was the most popular module due to being the base game on steam, "other modules are mostly equally popular" and "almost equally popular".

I would not read too much into the wording since English is obviously not their first language, and we don't know the margin of "mostly"/"almost", but I would not use it to support the claim the Eastern Front will be the company's financial ruin either.

[Lusekofte]

Nah, people’s mood decide whether to buy or not. Right now , to be honest I won’t buy anything. 
I simply cannot get myself to start this game. 
But if there be more complex systems improved damage models and they focus on both general purpose ac and fighters equally. I am in and care less if early stuff can be used  or not. And what place it is

[danielprates]

21 hours ago, FliegerAD said:

Mistel

 

The tnt-laden ju88 with a fw190 on piggyback?

 

I would welcome more variety but oddities like that are far from the top of a priority list.

[FliegerAD]

It was neither the only thing I mentioned in my post nor the most important, merely one of the elements. I too would put greater priority on regular bombers and attack aircaft, including those which could fire guided munitions (present on the late Eastern Front, too).